Another viewpoint on outsourcing...

[Liberal Veteran]

Ad hominem attacks and hints of racial prejudice aside, I'd like to say a few words about the outsourcing, from my own point of view.

About 9 years ago, I spent my days working in a convenience store and spent my nights and free time getting my degree in computer science so I could climb out of a bad job market that was already suffering the exporting of our manufacturing base overseas.

5 1/2 years ago, I went to work for a very well known company that makes operating systems.

I spent long hours and a great deal of work to help make this company profitable and effecient.

I didn't ask much in return: A livable wage, decent working conditions, an occasional holiday off, and medical/benefits.

In May of this year, myself and approximately 500 others got called into a room and told our jobs were going overseas.

These people overseas are not anymore (or less perhaps) qualified than we are and basically the bottom line we were given as a reason was that they work for less and that our CEO wanted to "do good things" for the third world country.

Now you may consider it racist, protectionist, or what have you, but the bottom line for me is that worked hard to gain and maintain my skills and my livelyhood is being pulled out from under me.

I wouldn't even feel bitter about this had it been a necessary business move, but when your company is making a great deal of money and has created a couple of the richest people in the world, then the idea that these people would take the hard work I put in to help make this company successful and transfer that success to a third world country for nothing more than a few more dollars they don't even need is offensive beyond measure.

And those who think this is such a great thing for the people overseas need to realize that in addition to exploiting those workers with wages and conditions we wouldn't tolerate in the US, this is nothing more than a transfer of jobs from one place to another. This is not "investment in a third world economy", it is divestment of a first world economy.

And it doesn't just hurt those of us directly affected. Not only will that be less disposable income to put into our own economy because we can no longer afford any luxuries while looking for work, but it will also cost you indirectly through such things as taxes to pay for our layoffs, unemployment, emergency room care for those who lost their benefits, and increased cost to put your children through school, because I and many others like me are having to put more pressure on the public institutions to retrain ourselves for a more stable career since our current one is being pulled out from under us and we are going to be taking advantage of every single program we can to help us.

Don't think for an instance this all occurs in a vacuum that will not affect you, because there are ripples that will negatively impact you.

[_Jumper_]

1. Response

"Now you may consider it racist, protectionist, or what have you, but the bottom line for me is that worked hard to gain and maintain my skills and my livelyhood is being pulled out from under me."

Many people have lost jobs to less-qualified people because of affirmative action. Do you oppose affirmative action too? At least the Indians are equallly qualified.

"I wouldn't even feel bitter about this had it been a necessary business move, but when your company is making a great deal of money and has created a couple of the richest people in the world, then the idea that these people would take the hard work I put in to help make this company successful and transfer that success to a third world country for nothing more than a few more dollars they don't even need is offensive beyond measure."

This reveals your true colors. I guess they sould leave the "Third World" and set up shop in "Aryan", I mean "First World" nations such as Germany and Sweden.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. You assume that all things are equal....

They are not:

1. I am already working for this company and have been for over 5 years. My and my colleagues have helped make this company a success.

2. We are not competing for the same position in the same economy.


To claim that it is racist to be upset that company betrays it's the very people who made the company successful by firing them and replacing them with 3rd world workers for a pittance is ludicrous and insulting.

And to claim the person is more qualified to do the job than someone who has already been doing this job for over 5 years is so far beyond absurd that I am amazed you would even suggest it. As a person who has gotten consistent outstandings on my annual review doing the job that is being sent overseas, how could you even claim that an entry level person is better qualified than I am to do what I have been doing for years. Are you daft?

Further, I am not asking them to pull out of third world countries to set up shop in "aryan" countries. I am asking that successful companies not pull out of first world countries they are already established in so they can exploit third world workers in order to enrich themselves when they are already rich and successful in the first world.

[_Jumper_]

11. I see your point

Your original post did smack of racism but I understand your point now.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

23. "Smacked of racism'?

Bullshit.

[Liberal Veteran]

24. Yeah, I was trying to figure that one out too.

Guess he missed my rainbow flag avatar and I certainly don't think anything I said could be construed as racist. Protectionist, perhaps. Racist? I don't think so.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

27. This person...

is all over a couple of threads ranting about affirmative action and racism.

Methinks he stinks.

[Born_a_Democrat]

5. Apples = Oranges

Many people have lost jobs to less-qualified people because of affirmative action. Do you oppose affirmative action too? At least the Indians are equallly qualified.


Your comparison is flawed for several reasons:

Outsourcing is done by companies to fatten the bottom line
Afirmative Action is there to ensure that RACISM doesn't rule America


Outsourcing Takes jobs OUT of the American Economy
Afirmative Action does not



Outsourcing was invented by the same people that gave us Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing, Arthur Anderson (in other words, crooks out to get as much money as they can into their own pockets)
Afirmative Action was created by Tired, abused, neglected TALENTED people who were sick of being passed over SIMPLY because their skin was a different color


And finally,
If ALL American workers tommorow decided they would work for half what Indians work for...they would IMMEDIATELY get their jobs back.

Without Affirmative Action, Blacks in this country would find themselves "less qualified" than every white person walking in the door (yes even Cleatus the slack-jawed yokel).


Please try to keep things in perspective...your comparison reminds me of Republican arguments.

Mike

[_Jumper_]

12. You have no problem with losing a job because of AA?

Yet you complain about losing your job to people halfway around the world? If it's about jobs be consistent.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Do you understand affirmative action?

You keep bringing up AA as if it had some relevance to the topic, but it doesn't.

Never in my lifetime have I heard of a person being fired from a job so they could be replaced by a minority worker.

Now I have heard complaints that two people competing for the same job might be pursuaded to hire the minority worker over the non-minority worker. But in those cases of Affirmative action, we are talking about an open position that two or more people are competing for.

Overseas outsourcing basically fires a person domestically who is already employed to replace them with a low-cost replacement overseas.

What does AA have to do with the outsourcing argument? They are completely apples and oranges.

[Born_a_Democrat]

21. Now you REALLY remind me of a Republican

Where in my (un-edited) post do I say that I don't have a problem losing my job, period?

First off Afirmative Action doesn't put people OUT of jobs, it puts people IN jobs. Nowehere have I seen AA used to say: "whoops we got too many crackers on this job, let's fire a few and get some blacks". On the contrary, usually those employers wind up hiring MORE people to meet a quota.

In the cases where first time hiring is being done then AA may keep ALL the positions from going to whites which means "some" whites will not get a job at that company. To me that sounds more like diversity in the workplace rather than "putting people out of work"...you can't be put out of a job you don't yet have...


In addition, AA keeps jobs in this country and although I wouldn't qualify for a job that might be go to a Black person (since I'm not black) at least the job stays in the U.S. which means the salary will be higher than that same job in India, Mexico, Russia or whereever.

That means that when I do find a job in the same field the salary won't be half as much because they are comparing it to those people overseas that do them.


And before you say anything you have no clue about...I do have a family and I have (in the past) been unemployed and I have eaten hot-dogs and cereal to save money. Oh and I've worked while in college to maintain myself

So all you Mommy and Daddy supported college boys that have no idea what the real world is like outside of college please try to think before you post.

Mike

[Yavin4]

7. That Racism Argument Is Pure BULLSHIT!!!

Some of these same tech jobs are going to Russia, a nation of White people, and people are still upset. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with race.

My generation was repeatedly told over and over again to get into IT as a means to secure middle class citizenship, and now that's being taken away from us.

Without taxpaying ITers, most of your government programs will go bust.

[Nobody]

8. A disturbing trend I noticed a few years ago

Profitable companies laying off people right and left not because they had too many employees, but because they could have temps do the job cheaper.

It doesn't matter what part of planet earth you live on, your full time job with a living wage and benefits goes out the window and a temp gets hired who gets less pay and no benefits. Soon, you will be that temp because the permanent jobs no longer exist.

The difference here is that instead of replacing full time workers with temps, they're replacing experienced existing workers with new people who won't get the wages or the benefits.

It's corporate greed and that's the obscenity.

A company I once worked for in the mid 90s did this: Hire a bunch of phone techs and put them on the payroll as temps. Make them work 6 months or more before converting them to full time with benefits workers.

All workers, temp or full time with benefits, must work mandatroy overtime to the tune of 60 hours a week and only 1 day off a week.

The typical burnout period for the job is 6 to 9 months. That means people will be quitting before they're eligible for benefits and wage increases due to the high stress of this position.

We brought this up to the manager and he not only knew how deliberate this was, he reveled in it.

[damnraddem]

2. Outsourcing isn't about 'helping people in other countries.'

It's about dumping better-paid, better-protected workers for lower-paid, unprotected workers. It's about the demeaning of labor. It's also about desecration of environment: moving jobs from countries/areas with better environmental protection to those with little or none. 'Globalization' is a misnomer -- it's about corporate global domination. It does not embrace globalization of worker protection nor environmental protection.

[bleedingheart]

3. I agree with you..

I left college with over twenty thousand in debt, I have worked for many years and have the respect of many of my colleagues...but my job is becoming more insecure as time goes by because corporations that are making money want to expand profits by moving to countries where they can pay people less wages..

...and it isn't racist because there are jobs that go to Ireland, Sweden, Germany, Russia, Lithuania, Poland...as well as India and China...

I smell white collar unions around the corner....

[SoCalDem]

6. ALL workers should be unionized

and if there is a minimum wage, there should be a maximum wage..

How many houses/cars/furs/diamonds does one person need??

Just as there are wage "steps" that workers must go through as their pay/benefits rise, so should there be plateaus for the top guys.. If the company is poorly run and loses money, THEIR pay gets cut.. Two or three quarters of loss, and THEY are out the door----sans parachute, golden or otherwise..

There is NO excuse for the few at the top to be so badly affecting the lives of their workers.. They cavalierly "cut" jobs to protect their perks and in the process doom whole families and even towns to poverty.. It does not affect THEM, because they have contracts and lawyers to protect them, but the workers are ususally there as long as the boss can't find anyone cheaper..


Unions were the answer years ago, and regardless of what the repubbies say, they are STILL the answer..

[wakfs]

19. YES! YES!

I totally agree with you. Unions are the best answer for workers. Strength in numbers ALWAYS applies.

We're all a little guilty of letting this situation worsen in recent years. We could have done more to organize and protest these disturbing trends.

[NashVegas]

26. Speaking of Uniting

If the IT worker sector really, really REALLY wants to get this issue in the public's face, take it to the editors and writers of your local High School District's newspaper and college campuses, too.

Make sure the 21 and under crowd is aware of what's going on, so they can take it to the college recruiters, make it an issue there, too.

[bushisanidiot]

9. I Feel for you..

Outsourcing sucks. It's a tool of the greedy, plain and simple.

[Pallas180]

10. You dont get it. It's societal engineering. Since the 70's - The New World

Order and you can thank Kissinger, Nixon and Bush 1 behind
it. Dont you remember New World Order repeated over and over.
That has become World Trade Organization, country club for the
global companies.

The societal engineering is to bring down the standard of living
of the American middle class and to bring up the standard of living
of the third world countries - therefore putting all labor/worker
classes on more or less the same level - LOW.

That benefits the Globalists - distributes the wealth (except theirs)

KIssinger and Nixon opened up China. IF you aven't noticed there is
nothing you can buy in a retail store that is not made in China. China
has been a client of Kissinger's lobbyist firm since he left govt. "officially". Who has better contacts. I'll give you another
example of Kissinger influence - don't you remember when there was
a great influx of Yugoslavian made clothes in all the retail stores? (actually they were much better made than what comes from China). Another Kissinger client. |The Yugo. And dont you remember that Kissinger spoke against going after Milosevic. He and BEchtel were
heavily invested in Yogoslavia\. Can''t remember whether it was
Scowcroft or Eagleburger who was in with them - but it was one of them.

New World Order. Are you enjoying it?

[_Jumper_]

13. Redistribution of wealth

Do you support the redistribution of wealth within America?

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Yes I do.

I gladly pay taxes to support the less fortunate in this society.

The bottom line for me that all people should be entitled to food, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care. Many of those people who benefit from the "redistribution of wealth" are people who work just as hard, if not harder than I do. They are people like Bobbie Sue Whitetrash who got married out of high school and her deadbeat husband got jailed and left her with three kids and no education and now she is working the drive through 40 hours a week at McRatmeat to try to make ends meet. There are any number of jobs (janitors, waiters, burgerflippers, dishwashers, lawn care, maids, produce pickers, etc...) that work very hard and may not be capable of doing any better, but I think they are entitled to the basics I named.

And I don't mind my taxes going to help these people. It should. We have a symbiotic relationship with these people. We need them as much as they need us. Maybe we need them more. And since we are unwilling to pay these people a living wage with benefits for the services they offer us, we should at least offer them a helping hand to make ends meet and provide for the basics in life. We can't all be doctors, lawyers, CEOs, and architects. It is not only not practical, it's not desirable, because at the end of the day, someone has to clean the toilet you shit in at work today.

[monkeyboy]

14. I'm getting really sick of these assholes

who claim that anybody who complains about outsourcing to other countries are racist. I'm mostly of German descent, but I don't want my job going to Germany, and I don't want Germans coming over here and competing for my job. Let them stay over there and do the best they can, good luck to them. And the Mexican-Americans and Indian-Americans should be able to stay here and compete with me for the jobs here, and may the most qualified American win. These silly, namby-pamby, bleedingbhearts who feel that third world countries should be given all of our money and jobs obviously never have been laid off and had their house taken by the bank. Stupid sophomoric idiots.

[_Jumper_]

16. So you're against affirmative action?

". Let them stay over there and do the best they can, good luck to them."

Why should they stay over there? Shouldn't they have the same opportunity to come here that your ancestors did?

" And the Mexican-Americans and Indian-Americans should be able to stay here and compete with me for the jobs here, and may the most qualified American win."

So you're against affirmative action?

"These silly, namby-pamby, bleedingbhearts who feel that third world countries should be given all of our money and jobs obviously never have been laid off and had their house taken by the bank."

It's not about race. It's about the "First World(who are, incidentally of course, lily-white)" versus the "Third World(who are, incidentally of course black, brown, and yellow)."

[Melsky]

18. So we are lilly white?

Are you on the same planet as us? I have never worked in a place that was all white. There are tech workers of every color in the US. It doesn't matter if your job goes to India or Poland, if you can't pay your rent you are going to be on the street.

Heck, maybe I should just move to Eastern Europe, at least they would be able to pronounce my name!

Moving jobs offshore is about corporate greed and getting rid of our middle class.

[monkeyboy]

25. Oh you silly person

<<Why should they stay over there? Shouldn't they have the same opportunity to come here that your ancestors did?>>

Because when my ancestors came over here, there were millions of acres of land for the taking, and opportunities were endless. We're all out of room now. By the same token, can I come over to your house and eat your food and sleep on your couch?


<<So you're against affirmative action?>>

I'm all for affirmative action. What's that got to do with anything?


<<It's not about race. It's about the "First World(who are, incidentally of course, lily-white)">>

I'm impressed. It's not many people who can contradict themselves using a single sentence.

[Melsky]

17. Another thing that bugs me

whenever I watch tv there are tons of ads for technical schools that will teach you IT and technical skills that you need to survive in today's business world. HUH? You get out of there, you are going to be competing with tons of people who have actual working experience in the field. Plus, you will have to pay off your student loans. They run these ads in heavy rotation whenever I watch the simpsons reruns. I feel sorry for anyone who is taken in by this bs.

[Liberal Veteran]

22. Well, computer skills will come in handy....

But if you are looking for a new career, I say avoid IT like the plague!