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Jeff002 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:21 PM
Original message
Rate Kerry vs Dean by choices made by each at hard moments.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 12:06 AM by elad
What differentiates Deans history as Governor from Kerry's history in Congress is the choices made by each of them at hard moments

As Governor, when faced with the crisis caused by the Bush tax cuts and the decisions needed to be made as a result of this crisis, Deans response was to have the middle class and poor to bear the burden, rather than the rich:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

When offered options that would have made these ccuts unnecessary Deans responses showed who Dean favored and who he did not:

Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week.

The Progressives, with support of a couple dozen Democrats and one Republican, proposed two new income tax surcharges. Taxes would go up 12.5 percent on taxable income between $43,000 and $158,000. On taxable income above $158,000, taxes would be increased 25 percent.

Taxable income is the amount left after personal exemptions and deductions have been subtracted from wages, business earnings and other types of income.

Currently, Vermont’s highest income tax rate is 9.5 percent. That is the rate paid on taxable income above $283,000. Under the plan the Progressives proposed Thursday, the highest Vermont tax rate would be 11.88 percent.

-snip-

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

And when the Vermont Senate simply decided to sent Dean the message that they would not allow him to favor the profits of the pharmaceutical industry rather than the poor and middle class, Dean became angry and threatened to veto their decision:


Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

Just hours after an angry Gov. Howard Dean leveled a series of charges about how irresponsible he believed the Senate, controlled by his fellow Democrats, was being, senators did precisely what he warned them not to do.

They restored money to a pharmaceutical assistance program that he had slated for elimination, redirected some money to cities and towns to help pay for education, and passed the budget by a 21-8 roll-call vote.

“I believe what the Senate Appropriations Committee presented to you was a budget that listens to what Vermonters have asked us to do,” committee Chairwoman Susan Bartlett, D-Lamoille, said just before the vote...

Dean made clear in a morning news conference, though, that he didn’t support either version and he wondered aloud how they could find a compromise that would be to his liking.

-snip-

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html


Yet it was not just during time of adversity that Dean favor "BIG PILL" over the citizens who had to deal with rising health care costs:

B. Publicity Leading Up To the Passage of Act 64.
Throughout the 1990's there was a well recognized mounting concern about the <*14> corrupting effect of money in politics. Public officials recognized the problem and were calling for change. In 1991, Vermont's Secretary of State, Republican James Douglas spoke out in favor of stronger campaign finance regulation, noting that the need to raise large amounts of money for campaigns had heightened public suspicion of quid pro quo deals being struck between big money contributors and candidates. In 1997 Governor Howard Dean said in an address to the Vermont General Assembly, "money does buy access, and we're kidding ourselves and Vermonters if we deny it." Dean's comment, admirably candid, accelerated public discussion of the matter around the state...

Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies. n10 State Treasurer Paul W. Ruse was "criticized <*16> for financing his campaign with contributions from Wall Street firms with which the state does business." n11 Another article stated that "Ruse even appeared in a magazine advertisement for an investment firm." n12
. The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust." n15

http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

At the beginning of the 2000 legislative session, Senator Rivers, Vermont Senate President pro tempore Peter Shumlin (D-Putney), and eight other state senators introduced a new bill related to drug prices, S 300. The bill included provisions to lower drug prices, such as helping people to purchase drugs in Canada; it also provided for direct regulation of drug prices.

S 300 started out without strong independent pharmacist opposition. It did so despite special concerns that they had about price caps. Part of the income that pharmacists earn derives from high markups on drugs sold to people without any discount arrangements. Price controls would reduce pharmacists' incomes to the extent that they would not allow them these high markups.
Pharmacists were told by price control proponents that their net revenue would not be cut by S 300. Proponents asserted that there would be volume increases in drug store sales resulting from the plan that would offset the losses that pharmacists would take on lost markups.

Without vigorous arguments to the contrary, some pharmacists were inclined to accept this logic. As an alternative to S 300, Governor Howard Dean (D) announced that he was working on a waiver request to the Health Care Financing Administration (HCFA) that would lower drug prices. He said that he would ask HCFA to require drug makers participating in the Medicaid program to extend the Medicaid prices for prescription drugs to Vermonters with incomes less than 300 percent of the federal poverty line and those on Medicare.

On 10 February, S 300 passed out of both the Health and Welfare and the Finance Committee unanimously.

-snip-

http://www.metrostate.edu/cgi-bin/troxy/lproxy.cgi/URL-www.press.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_health_politics_policy_and_law/v028/28.1castellblanch.html

On the other hand, Senator Kerry has consistantly fought attempt to cut entitlement programs that assist those on fixed incomes or in poverty need in order to simply live.

Senator Kerry has been one of the primary forces behind numerous acts that have attempted to provide and expand the availability and affordability of health insurace for all:


Kerry Commends NASE Study


Small Business Committee Chairman Seeks Affordable Health Insurance for Small Businesses

Tuesday, June 18, 2002

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Senator John Kerry, Chairman of the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, made the following statement on the release of the National Association of the Self Employed's (NASE) findings regarding small business and health insurance:

"This NASE study is extremely informative -- it paints very clearly the reality of the health insurance crisis facing American small businesses and self-employed workers. Rising health insurance costs are a significant problem for small businesses which struggle with barriers and obstacles different from those facing large employers. The research from NASE further builds the case for real health insurance reform, including assistance to America's small business and self-employed individuals. In the weeks and months ahead, we need to refocus public attention on efforts which reduce the cost of health insurance for small businesses and explore needed reforms in our health insurance market."

http://www.senate.gov/~kerry/high/record.cfm?id=183933


And Senator Kerry was one of the driving forces behind the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). One of the sponsors of this legislation, he began immediately advocating for the act and began other actions designed to reduce the cost of health care. Essentially, this act CREATED COBRA, allowing emplyees to be able to keep their health insurance between jobs.

REGULATORY RELIEF

Senate Finance Committee Introduces Bill

Senator John Kerry along with 10 other members of the Senate Finance Committee, including Chair Max Baucus (D-MT) and Ranking Member Charles Grassley (R-IA), introduced regulatory relief legislation November 28 that mirrors in part many of the provisions of bills already approved by the House Ways and Means and Energy and Commerce committees (H.R. 2768 and 3046, respectively). S.1738 would require CMS to publish its regulations on one business day of each month, provide new appeal rights for providers and beneficiaries, open contracting to competitive bidding, authorize funds to improve provider training and education, and reform the Medicare overpayment and extrapolation process.

http://www.ashi-hla.org/newsfiles/Public_Policy/Archive/WU%20-%200112.doc


Or the act that created Kid Care, the act that enabled Vermont to begin to find its Dr Dynsaur Program which was started as a state program in 1989, but moved under the medicaid umbrella after the Kennedy Hatch Act was passed in 1997:

Agencies, HMOs debate youth health plan
Steve Robblee
RALEIGH -- State legislators, who lasted through a marathon session this summer, likely will return to the General Assembly early next year to vote on a plan to provide health insurance to perhaps 100,000 uninsured children.


A task force involving several state health agencies has been formed to suggest ways North Carolina can spend $79.5 million in federal funds. Dr. David Bruton, secretary of the state Health and Human Services Department, will take the task force's proposals to a special legislative committee.

The full legislature must approve the plan, which then would be submitted to the federal government.

"My sense is that this is a real positive topic, and the legislature will respond real well to this," said Tom Vitaglione, the task force's coordinator. "There's really nothing controversial about it."

-snip-

http://philadelphia.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/1997/10/20/story7.html

This act began like as the Kerry-Kennedy Act, a year earlier, and before that was an act presented by Senator Kerry and ANOTHER Senator who's name I cannot remember.

Primarily, Senator Kerry's act required a larger amount of federral funding than Republicans were comfortable with, so they came in the bill was made bi-partisan, in order to reduce the federal percentages that existed under the Kennedy/Kerry version. Which had the Federal Government agreeing to cover 75 percent of the states cost to cover children if the states would bring up coverage to those up to 300 percent above poverty.

Hatch brought this down so that childrens coverage was suject to the same 60/40 percent ratio that all other medicaid coverage is subect to.

Again, Dean as governor, has been reported to have attemnpted to cut out programs that benefited the poor, elderly, blind and handicapped not only when state funds were being cut by republicans, but also during the Clinton years when funding to the states was raised:

-snip-

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

One might even state that the need to cut programs while the state faced defucits MIGHT be justifiable if there were no viable alterantives. But even when the states were more than adequately funded, Deans fiscal conservatism over-rode his commitment to social programs>


And this is what it is all about. Choices. The choices a candidate has made under fire, under the gun, under public scrutiny.

Deans decisions were made, and those decisions targetted the poor and the most vulnerable members of his state, those on fixed incomes or in utter destitution.

Kerry has never made such a decision or entertained such an idea.

While the case that was to determine whetther gays were going to be given civil unions or not, from 1996 to December 20th, 1999, Dean remained silent and would not answer questions about supporting the civil rights gays.
For incumbent Governor Howard Brush Dean III, it was a fight he never asked for. The four-term governor (two-year terms in Vermont), had refused for years to publicly state his position on gay marriage. Dean is a Yale graduate (1971) and a medical doctor. Fiscal conservatism and universal health care are his issues. Dr. Dean describes his seat on the mandala of politics as that of a "passionate centrist." Again and again he told the public he would not comment on the same-sex marriage issue because it was a matter before the court.

-snip-

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/3867


Yet John Kerry got up in front of the Congressional Armed Services comittee and stated out loud, for all to hear:

John Kerry
Three-Term Senator Has Stellar Record
on Gay Civil Rights By Mark Shields
By Mark Shields


Kerry: For the Record
-------------------



Workplace Discrimination
Co-sponsor of the Employ-ment Non-Discrimination Act, a bill that would ban workplace discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Hate Crimes
Co-sponsor of a strong hate
crimes prevention measure, the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act.

HIV/AIDS
Co-sponsor of the Early Treatment for HIV Act, which would expand Medicaid to people living with HIV, and supports science-based prevention programs.

Gay Civil Rights Bill
Authored the Senate version of the Civil Rights Amendments Act of 1985,
a comprehensive gay civil rights bill that would have covered discrimination in employment, housing and credit.

-snip-

http://www.hrc.org/publications/hrcq/hrcq03sp/kerry.asp

A decade before Howard Dean was waffling and trying to avoid the issue on gay civil unions, Kerry was AUTHORED the Senates Gay Civil Rights Legislation.

He has had one of the Highest lifetime ratings from the Human Rights Campaign, the most active Pro-Gay Advocacy organizations in the U.S. if not the World, and for the last four years has had a perfect score from them.

Finally Kerry's ratings from conservative organizations rating his conservatism has made Kerry one of the democrats most targeted for his liberalism. Kerry has been given failing grades by conservative organizations for his entire carreer.


These organizations do not rate governors, but the Cato Institute does lets see Deans ratings

-snip-

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/09/22/3f6e88292a071

>"Fiscal conservatism is on the rise in the states," Moore and Stansel
>conclude. They write that pursuing low tax rates and expenditure controls
>is "the new governing doctrine in the nation's state capitals."
>
>Three governors have outstanding records on fiscal restraint and receive
>"A" grades: George Pataki of New York, Steve Merrill of New Hampshire and
>Fife Symington of Arizona.
>
>Four governors receive "F" grades: Gaston Caperton of West Virginia, Tom
>Carper of Delaware, Lawton Chiles of Florida and George Voinovich of Ohio.
>
>While Republicans generally earn higher scores than Democrats, party
>affiliation is not a major predictor of fiscal restraint. Among the
>governors elected before 1993, two of the top five are Democrats: Roy
>Romer of Colorado and Howard Dean of Vermont.


http://civic.net/civic-values.archive/199607/msg00229.html

Can you imagine that, George Voinovich getting an F from the Cato Institute when Dean Gets a much better than passing grade of "B"

http://civic.net/civic-values.archive/199607/msg00229.html

In the end, who we and why we choose them should untimately be based on what THEY have chosen in the past, and not hollow campaign slogans made while trying to get elected.

While Dean was governor, his support largely came from the conservative side of the spectrum:

Some Republicans back Dean
By TRACY SCHMALER Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - Democratic Gov. Howard Dean got a boost from the other side Thursday when a group of prominent Republicans turned out to support his re-election bid.

Led by South Burlington attorney William Gilbert, a core group of 11 Republicans said they believed Dean has proven his ability to lead the state in a fiscally responsible direction and for that reason, and his nine years of experience, he is their choice over GOP candidate Ruth Dwyer.

"In my judgment, in the last nine years Governor Dean has served the whole state of Vermont well," said Stephan Morse, former speaker of the House.

-snip-

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

Since Dean would have a tough time getting Republican support running as a Democrat for President, it simply became necerssary for Dean to do an image makeover, while trying to kick over the traces of his excepttionally conservative image and record for his ENTIRE political career.

Dean may not be one of the New Republicans, represented by the Neo-Con's who now are the power behind Republican and Conservative politics, but he most closely resembles those pre-Reagan Republicans he has been compared to:

Indeed, as Norman Solomon observes, there's a real disconnect between Dean's media image and his record.


"But the Democratic Leadership Council need not despair. Most of the nation's political journalists, including pro-Democrat pundits, insist that the party should not nominate someone too far 'left' -- which usually means anybody who's appreciably more progressive than the DLC. That bias helps to account for the frequent mislabeling of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has risen to the top tier of contenders for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination.
After Dean officially announced his campaign on June 23, some news stories identified him with the left. It's a case of mistaken identity. 'He's really a classic Rockefeller Republican -- a fiscal conservative and social liberal,' according to University of Vermont political scientist Garrison Nelson."

http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/27/we_473_02.html#one

One of the problems with the people who Dean is bringing into the political system is that they are simply unable to tell their right hands from their left hands. Or the political right from the political left.


If Dean becomes the "Democratic Nominee" and nominal leader of the Democratic Party, the democratic party will no longer exist as a force for liberalism in the United States. It will simply mean that the U.S. have TWO conservative parties, and no liberal or progressive alternatives. It will simply have one moderately conservative party, and one ultra-conservative party, and the hopes of those like Grover Norquist to end liberalism and reduce governmernt to a size that will allow it to be drwined in a bathtub will be realized.

Those who beleive that Dean will cause the rebirth of the Democratic Party or object to the DLC and the centrist move of the Democratic Party to become more like the Republican Party by appealing to the "Reagan Democrats" are sadly mistaken.

Dean simply has a record of a candidate who has moved much father to the ceter and right than the DLC that his early supporters have vociferously criticized.

Washington will no longer operate with a "Business as Usual" attitute, but a Business is EVERYTHING" attitute.

Again, we must choose a candidate on the choices they HAVE made, not on ones they promise us in order to get uys to beleive they have OUR interests at heart.

Dean has clearly and always been on the side of the powerful special interests in his state. His decisions lead one to no other conclusion that he will do so as president.

John Kerry has never made decisions that favored the powerful and the wealthy over the average citizen.

Hamurabi, the father of the worlds first law code stated that the first duty of government isto protect the powerless from the powerful.

He couldnt have known John Kerry, but must have had someone much like him in mind when he said that.

EDITED BY ADMIN FOR COPYRIGHT REASONS
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Boy, are you bored tonight or what
or are you being paid by the thread?
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Jeff002 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. One of the problems with the people who Dean is bringing into the..
political system is that they are simply unable to tell their right hands from their left hands. Or the political right from the political left.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:28 PM
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5. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:50 PM
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20. Deleted message
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. Well said! And welcome

to DU! :hi:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. "Well said!"?
One of the problems with the people who Dean is bringing into the.. political system is that they are simply unable to tell their right hands from their left hands. Or the political right from the political left.

I disagree! I hit the alert on our late departed Jeff002 for that one.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yes, I said "Well said!" and stand by it. I agree with

the poster, departed or not, that a lot of people supporting Dean, apparently people fairly new to politics, don't seem to know the difference between left and right.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:41 PM
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Jeff002 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:27 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:28 PM
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:30 PM
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7. might have known--a Kerry supporter
pathetic effort to hype a candidate who just cannot manage to capture the people's hearts, minds, or imaginations. tsk tsk--so much effort--and for what? same ole same ole status-quo Kerry. Kerry who is supposed to have the inside dope on Iran-Contra--yet here we are with the same demented scum running things from their shadow Office of Special Plans--and Kerry acts like he's never heard of them before. Real impressive.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. I don't think this guy is a Kerry supporter
For one thing, he posted some shit from a pro-Edwards blog, which may or may not mean he supports Edwards. I rather doubt it. Edwards's supporters are cerebral by nature, not prone to emotional spamming.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:09 AM
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batman Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I look forward to seeing Dean get the nomination so the likes of you will
be purged from DU.

:hi:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. if Dean gets the nomination
those who don't support him will be purged from D.U.?

Will it be the bullet behind the ear or a trip to the gulag?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Actually, once the Democratic nominee is selected
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 12:56 AM by IndianaGreen
we are expected to support him/her against Bush, otherwise what's the point of posting in DU. That is what the Admin has said.

I don't plan to do a Zell Miller imitation and endorse Bush!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:03 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:31 PM
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aldian159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:31 PM
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9. thanks for the fodder
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LiberalTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Moderators please
Can something be done about these long posts full of articles? How about just links, Jeff??
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Jeff002 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. No one posts "just links" Do Deaners find the truth inconvenient?
n/t
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. You mean this part?
"In my judgment, in the last nine years Governor Dean has served the whole state of Vermont well"

Actually I liked it :)
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Oh, so it's a Kerry-ite who's spewing all this anti-Dean venom...
...spamming the GD forum tonight.

Obviously, Kerry isn't my first choice in the primaries, but he's a good man, and I doubt he'd be pleased with your childish actions in his name. He deserves a better representative of his message.
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progressivestudent Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Maybe
he's working for the campaign, afterall DU, we are a large audience.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:41 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:52 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:40 PM
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. Why are you calling out someone not on this thread?
Your guess that it is nic, does not make it so.
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AnnabelLee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Jeff002
Per DU copyright rules, please do not post more than four paragraphs of copyrighted material.

Thank you
AnnabelLee
DU Moderator
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. How many times are you gonna ask?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:00 AM
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. This isn't DeanUnderground,,,,,,, yet. IMHO, Dean ain't all that.
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 12:18 AM by billbuckhead
Howies biography is lot closer to Chimpy's than most of our 2004 Dem POTUS candidates. Another Ivy League ex-drunk from a wealthy family who got sober and now thinks he has all the answers. Dean is peculiar Democrat to begin with. He is one of the rare "Democrats" with a "A" from the NRA. He is one of the rare "Democrats" to address a right wing think tank. He is one of rare "Democrats" to oppose affirmative action policies because they are adverse to whites. His anti-war credentials were bought on the cheap. Not in the real battlefield or even the almost as deadly battlefield of Washington D.C., but in Ben and Jerry country, in the home of the only socialist Congressman in the USA, in the most liberal state in the nation. He had no seat to defend, anyhow. He had no actual vote like Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards.Gephardt and Lieberman had to publically and historically make. His leadership in Vermont quickly is put in perspective when one realizes that Vermont has less people than most urban counties and has less black people than a major college football team. Dean ain't all that.
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Jeff002 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Dean is the worst candidate I've ever seen in the democratic party
What cracks me up is Nader said that Gore wasn't pure enough, yet he's nodding in Dean's direction, Dean who is actually no different than Bush. But then again, Nader isn't any different than Bush. He's got a dirty corporate private life he keeps secret, he is second only to Bush in hypcrosies. I think Dean is part II in the Naderites plan to destroy the democratic party.

The thing is, we're calling their bluff. Go ahead, try and force Dean on us. we're not taking. We'll write in the best candidate to beat Bush.
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Lady President Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Who is this "we"?
I noticed in your posts you talk as if you are part of a group. For example, "We're calling their bluff," or "We'll write in a candidate." If you support Kerry that's fine, but implying that you're part of group planning to sabotage the Dems. without giving the group name, is just not right.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. Also like Bush*, Dean has that attitude of expecting

people to listen to him because of who he is (a rich guy who went to Yale.) He even has a smirk! They both come across as smart ass frat boys. Kerry comes from wealth, too, but he doesn't project that image.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. That's not what research shows.
American Research Group survey: "What are your first impressions of the candidates running for president?

http://americanresearchgroup.com/image/

While both Dean and Kerry have several negative comments listed, Kerry's negative are far longer than his positives and include terms such as "Aristocratic," "hoity-toity," "stiff and arrogant," and "elite snob."
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
27. Either of them are 100 times better than Bush...
either of them is fine with me...
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Novak is telling us that Dean is our best candidate. Who's closer to Rove?
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 12:49 AM by billbuckhead
Dean is Dukakis on crack. If "we" run Dean, the Dem party will be grudge freeped and deservedly so. Beacause this guy Dean raised more money on the internet than other guys with far thicker biographies who actually fought the fight in Vietnam or against ruthless power companies in a rust belt industrial zone or are from our long waiting minority base or who actually had to fight the Washington battles or took on the tobacco interests or..... Dean ain't done much. Why should we let the Repukkkes and coroporate cable tell us this is our guy?
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. So Jeff02 got tombstoned finally!
and you agree with him?

Hmmmmm.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. He will be back
under another name, and there will be many to follow, slamming not just Dean, but Kerry, Gephardt, et al - whoever poses a threat to GWB, as the election season heats up. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. If I were a moderator, I would lay in a good supply of Excedrin. They will need it. Keep your eyes on the prize, whoever your candidate is: Exposing and defeating GWB, understanding that there is no length to which his campaign will not go to divide, conquer and control.
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aldian159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Is there any hope
for us to beat Bush 2.0? Its so sad watching the right lie, distort, and manipulate to stay in power. It's Nixon-like...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. "Dean is Dukakis on crack"?
Well, we are approaching Halloween, I guess that explains a lot of things.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
42. Wait, so whose side are you on?
I couldn't tell ;)
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Adjoran Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
44. that is a bit wordy, try cutting it down a bit
I don't object to supporters of one candidate attacking another on his record and positions. Politics ain't beanbag, and whoever is the nominee needs to develop a thick skin. What we're seeing right now is Little League stuff compared to what Karl Rove is now preparing.

I do object to childish statements like "if your guy wins, I'll write in mine." Are these people Democrats or not?

This campaign has had ten candidates. Most of them have attracted millions of dollars in small donations from Americans who think they would be the best President. But in the end, out of ten, there will be nine losers and only one winner.

The Democratic Party nominee has almost no chance of winning in 2004 if the losers' supporters sit it out. Democrats never win when the party is divided.

Let's be clear about one thing: you have two choices in 2004, the Democratic nominee, or Bush. That's it. If you don't support the Democrat, you support Bush. If you cast a protest vote for a candidate with no practical chance to win, you are voting for Bush. If you stay home, you are voting for Bush.

Fight hard for the nomination. Noses will be bloodied. But those who truly place the country's interests over personal victory will get behind their nominee.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.
And its author ain't lookin' that good either.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. 6 feet under heh
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 04:30 PM by JohnKleeb
Who knows Latin?
j/k kick the tombstone.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
48. I got three words for you
Iraq War Resolution.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. You should increase your vocabulary beyond those 3 words- here's 3 more
Dean is BushLite.
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