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If you cut taxes, would people voluntarily fund programs for the poor?

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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:53 AM
Original message
If you cut taxes, would people voluntarily fund programs for the poor?
Gary Nolan, Libertarian candidate for president, said on CSPAN today that the way taxes are collected and redistributed into social programs is extremely inefficient and doesn't truly help the poor and disadvantaged.

Rather, he contends if people were not taxed, they would have much more expendable income and would voluntarily use it to help others, that there would be an outpouring of aid that exceeds what is being spent now.

My question is, do you think this assertion is true? Are people basically unselfish or do we need the government to be our social conscious?
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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Absolutely not.
About 85% of people are selfish, according to evolutionary scientists. Every study shows that there would not be enough money to support what the people want if taxes were voluntary or charities.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nope
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 09:57 AM by Hep
A lot of charities might get more money, but I don't think that certain needs of the people would be met.

I mean, they aren't necessarily being met now. I react to criticism of many of our federally funded social programs with agreement followed by conveying the need for reform. But you would be hard pressed to convince me that our problems would go away if people were left to support each other by themselves.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sheah right. They might toss out a few bucks to the poor who jump through
hoops for them, but the poor will be massively worse off.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ridiculous!
It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that people will donate to social programs if they don't have to pay taxes! Unfortunately people are far to greedy and selfish to actually do the right thing.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
69. Thanks for your input!
Welcome to DU, 1songbird! :hi: We have a number of people from Ohio around here.
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seeker4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Right up there with the Repukes...
The problems in America will be solved if the wealthy get to keep all of their money. BULLSHIT!
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. You see I could never understand this
The libertarians I have tangled with in the past despised social programs helping the poor because of the disdain they had for the poor--"bums and welfare mothers who can't get off their asses and get a job instead are living off the fruit of my labor, drunk and drug addicted and can't bother to get an education to pull themselves out of their sorry lot"

So how can they claim charity is any solution when they typically argue a case against charity?
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. I would agree on one point
the government is EXTREMEMLY inefficient at just about any functions that it does. I don't think we should defund these sorts of programs for the poor and disadvantaged, but, if we could clean out the waste in various areas of government we could do a MUCH better job of helping where help is needed. It sure wouldn't hurt to get rid of some of the pork in the budget as well!

TheProdigal
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Can you support that with some facts, please?
You say "the government is EXTREMEMLY inefficient at just about any functions that it does", so can you back that up factually?

I don't dispute that inefficiencies exist, but I'm a little tired of such sweeping canards ("extremely", "just about any functions") being floated without realistic comparisons with potential alternatives.

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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. sorry, not to inflame
but this is a fairly accepted fact that I did not feel the need to support with links and such...

The only thing I am suggesting here, is that our government take a little time (probably a lot in reality) and find the various inefficiencies (like duplicate functions, too much 'middle management', missing monies, poorly performing agents/employees, etc.) and fix them. I have a distinct feeling that vast quantities of money would be found that could be better directed!

If you want a look at ineffiecency, take a look at the schools. In Atlanta we spend over $14,000 per student and the system is STILL failing miserably where school systems that spend literally half of that have been performing well and have good facilities. Yet we still poor more and more money in every year.

If you want a look at abuse/waste, we have government employees that abused expense accounts regularly. This sort of thing occurs regularly (and is exposed). These are the sorts of things I am talking about...

TheProdigal
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. I think you're right
I don't think a lot of our social programs are as efficient as they should be.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Hmmmm, government is efficient?
Isn't the Pentagon still missing 3 trillion dollars? They can't seem to account for it. This is efficient?
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. missing...
or going to programs that no one can know about. Either way, $3,000,000,000,000 is a truckload (damned big truck) of bucks. Not necessarily inefficient, but very shady, indeed. Misappropriated, wasted, stolen, embezzled...God only knows where these dollars are going...

TheProdigal
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. Yes , but notice with the exception of the "loony Left"
Those functions of government are never under scrutiny, only pumped with greater and greater greenbacks. The social programs are always looked to be "reformed". Codeword.

Tells you something about the priorities of the country, along with promoting the ideal (both D and R) of foreign policy to be represented by military authority.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. it should all be under scrutiny
I watch every dollar (well, nickle to be true) that goes into and out of my budget...why is it that the American people are soooo careful with their own money (there are of course expeptions to that) and yet, once it is in the hands of government, even though it is STILL OUR MONEY, we seem to just not give a flying flip any more?

TheProdigal
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. It is not an accepted fact
It is a tired claim promoted by those who want to dismantle government. Government is often much more efficient than the private sector, and it is subject to greater regulatory oversight. This is an issue Molly Ivins has discussed at length in condemning corporate inefficiency and corruption.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. I have no interest in dismantling, just clean it up
Are you saying there is nothing that needs to be cleaned up with regard to efficiency and waste in Gov't? There is waste and ineffieciency in almost ANY large bureaucracy ...coprporate or governmental...

TheProdigal
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
56. "just clean it up"
cracks me up

Blanket allegations about government waste and inefficiency are irresponsible and uninformed. I've worked for state government for almost 20 years. Currently I'm in the welfare and unemployment office.

I'd love for anyone to tell me how to better serve the poor or cut our expenses. We are limited by federal law to 15% for administrative costs for all programs. We are under that. More than 85% of the money we gets goes out in benefits. You can't just hand out money. It takes verifying eligibility, holding hearings, going to court, stopping fraud, accounting, writing checks, meeting needs. We are audited by the legislative auditors. Trust me, we don't have padded anything, let alone expense accounts.

There was a guy who Bush thought a genius, Ornish (?) who espoused the same thing. He actually said the poor were better off when we had orphanages and poor houses. If you go to charitable contributions that is what you will end up with. Odd, before Bush was elected he quoted this guy all the time. Now you never hear about him. Anyone remember?

I would also point out that most programs for the poor are federal. When it was left to the states to care for the poor they wouldn't/didn't do it. If the state governments can muster the good will to care for their own you think the libertarians will? (Ha!) Caring for the poor does not spring to mind when I think of the Libertarian platform. If anything, they are more "everyman for himself" than the republicans.

In Germany many social programs are run by churches but there is a mandatory deduction from your pay check to the church of your choice. It was a larger percentage of your income than you currently pay for the poor. (Less than 2% of the federal budget goes to the poor. By far the biggest budget busters are food stamps and medicaid. If the government didn't pay for medicaid you would through your insurance premiums. And food stamps is a Dept. of Agriculture program. Try to cut that and the country's farmers will be hard hit.)

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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. there ARE programs that do well...
but, I have seen situations that need to be improved. Would you approve of auditing 'Program A' that is failing or is wasteful and then redirecting funds to your programs? I think that we need to spend MORE for those in need...but the money disappears into other holes...never to be seen again or questioned.

TheProdigal
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. no
>>>but this is a fairly accepted fact that I did not feel the need to support with links and such...

No, it is not an accepted fact, it is a meme that those of limited intelligence swallow whole.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Ok, I wouldn't call it a fact then
But how would he go about proving a statement such as that?
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. i gave a couple of examples...
am I still of limited intelligence? Please refrain from implying such things. I could just as easily say you are deluded for ignoring the obvious.

TheProdigal
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. your examples...
.... don't hold much sway with me. When it comes to education, there are many, many factors to consider that are well beyond the school itself. Using it as an example of "extreme ineffeciency" is fallacious.

For example, many have experimented with private sector schools, i.e. Edison. These schools have been a failure, not a small one, a big one. They lasted a mere few years here in Dallas and were canned due to lacking standardized test scores. Standardized tests are, or should be, the easiet thing to teach to, although passing one certainly is not all that indicative of having a good education.

Expense account abuse in the public sector should be treated exactly the same as in the private - with termination and prosecution when the facts merit it. Are you suggesting that one can rip off a Federal employer with no consequence? You'll have to provide an example.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. why are schools a special case?
It is just one of a myriad of government programs. I agree that there are multiply factors...no doubt it is a complicated thing. But to say that inefficiencies don't exist...I am not sure how you can do that.

And for expenses and abuses of that nature, HELL YES, they should be fired...or run out of office. But the problem is that they are not. They are frequently retained and nothing is done. And I am not suggesting only Federal gov't. A local county commisioner here in Fulton County, GA...well, she cannot seem to go to the grocery store without a police escort...pulling on duty officers off of their rounds. But will she answer why? No. She will not speak with anyone in the media about this nor even give her side of the story...she just does it. This is but one example...

TheProdigal
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
71. Question
ALL "fairly accepted fact."
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. I agree that you probably don't need to cite evidence
Of the government being inefficient. I mean, hell, just try to renew your drivers license sometime.... thats an hour if you are lucky...


But I am curious to know how you might go about cutting some of the fat, and making government programs more streamlined and run more smoothly.

This is definately a hell of a task, and I would have no idea where to start.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. we need a true audit...
and yes, it is a Hurculean task. It boggles the mind to think about it...I need more caffeine!!!

TheProdigal
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Shit, right now I would settle for
a statement as to where exactly the eighty-seven billion will be going. ALL of it...

But that won't happen
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. Important to remember that we don't tax people just to help poor....
...and that we don't help the poor only to help the poor.

We socialize costs like building roads to help everyone, and usually the richest benefit the most from an infrastructure which greases the skids of commerce.

Also, helping the poor with social programs creates a safety net which helps everyone. If there were lots of poor people, there would be an incredible downward pressure on wages that would hurt a lot of people (and only help big businesses which make their money from exporting goods or from selling things to Americans in a monopoly-dominated market).

Furthermore, having a good safety net means that more people are able to take chances, like starting news businesses, or moving around the country to find the best, highest paying jobs, which is good for everyone (because it ensures that people earn the highest wages they're capable of earning, and because, when people start new businesses, they create price competition and force other businesses to try harder to deliver more wealth to the economy).
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. Important to remember that we don't tax people just to help poor....
...and that we don't help the poor only to help the poor.

We socialize costs like building roads to help everyone, and usually the richest benefit the most from an infrastructure which greases the skids of commerce.

Also, helping the poor with social programs creates a safety net which helps everyone. If there were lots of poor people, there would be an incredible downward pressure on wages that would hurt a lot of people (and only help big businesses which make their money from exporting goods or from selling things to Americans in a monopoly-dominated market).

Furthermore, having a good safety net means that more people are able to take chances, like starting news businesses, or moving around the country to find the best, highest paying jobs, which is good for everyone (because it ensures that people earn the highest wages they're capable of earning, and because, when people start new businesses, they create price competition and force other businesses to try harder to deliver more wealth to the economy).
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. Mr Nolan needs to shut up and start reading
...a little bit of history. Although a few great souls have dedicated their lives to helping the poor, their numbers have historically been inadequate. Working people and agricultural folks (factory workers, sharecroppers, miners) lived in unimaginable squalor. When they were hurt, they died. Children were employed as quickly as possible to supplement the family income.

Hey folks, I'm not even mentioning the women who found themselves on their own with a clutch of kids after Poppa left in search of whatever. "Taking in washing" was a very polite term whitewashing what those women actually had to do to feed their kids.

The point is that there were few social programs to speak of until the social safety net was established during the New Deal. Churches and foundations were able to do little to alleviate the harsh conditions too many people lived in until the welfare of all the citizens was seen as everybody's problem and government stepped in to enforce what the stingy would not do out of the goodness of their hearts.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Right, if charity provided for the need
It would've never been necessary to establish additional institutions for the common good.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. Charitable donations are at a 12 year low....
After everyone got a taxcut. In good times, people donate more to charity. In uncertain times, people donate less.
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dofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. One positive aspect of high taxes
on rich people, is that they often make charitable donations to avoid taxes. A lot of family foundations are set up for this very purpose.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. If the repugs continue
to provide even more unfair legal tax shelters to the rich there will not be an incentive for donating to charities.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. The caveat to that is...
...many of those donations are to things which are adjuncts to their lifestyle (museums, art houses, orchestras, etc.), not so much or at all to shelters, food pantries, neighborhood health clinics, etc. Of course these funded institutions do support a number of persons employed by them, but they don't exactly fight the battle against poverty either.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. Inadequate IMO, but there is a point
to the argument.

And that is that I believe people are helped more when the help comes from closer to them than Washington. Local help is also more efficient in my opinion.

So, what can we do to get local people and communities to do more to volunteer and help their neighbors? And still be sure that people are helped.

Charities of 100 years ago were not adequate to the problems, especially during economic downturns, but they absolutely had some real good parts to them which we have lost today.

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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. yes i think so
Im already in a volunteer program in my church to give food and stuff to women in need. I know LOTS more would if they could afford it
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. That line is total BS
Its kind of like saying that if you give corporations huge tax breaks, tax credits, and a ton of leeway in a free market that they will lower costs and pay their workers better.

Its bullshit.

If that notion were true, you wouldn't see corporations cut jobs to increase their stock a few points, and you certainly wouldn't see jobs being cut to save money while CEOs still made salaries in the upper hundreds of thousands and millions.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
20. *ahem*.....BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That's like asking if Bill Gates wants to open up the Macroswift source code....YA RIGHT!

I think people have the capacity for being generous and helping their fellow man...where government steps in is to cover everybody else. I think man is capable of giving, but we need to change the society so that man doesn't have to be socially conscious on that front, because, ultimately, there'll be disappointment.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Well, that was my reaction as well
but I just thought someone else might be able to provide a different perspective.
:hi:
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Misinformed01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
21. No. History has proven this to be untrue many times over
Hoover tried pushing faith based charities; even he eventually gave up:

"Some say that in describing the 19th century and projecting his vision for 21st century America, Marvin Olasky is simply wrong. Critics like Robin Garr, author of "Reinvesting in America" accuse him of glorifying a misinformed past. "Charity wasn't sufficient in Dickens' time, it wasn't sufficient in Hoover's time and it isn't sufficient now," Garr says. University of Pennsylvania historian Michael Katz says that Olasky is also wrong in how he paints religious charity in the past century. Even in the 1890s in towns like Buffalo, N.Y., three-fourths of public assistance to the poor came from government."

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/elec10.htm


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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. Facts? Cut that out!
What are you trying to do, convert Randroids?
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. No...
History is replete with examples of charitable organizations tying to deal with the problems of those that are at the bottom of the social scale. there never has been, nor will there ever be, a system that is efficient at dealing with these problems.

For one thing, people are inherently selfish...unless placed in a situation where we feel the crunch, we generally don't understand how others really have to be be exceptionally creative just to eat and find shelter. Look at those two kids that were found being starved! Fortunately, one was founds looking in atrash can for something to eat, without that scenario, these kids might be dead now. My point is however, that we rarely get to know of people like this, we turn our heads, and we move away when we hear of stories where peoiple are in horrid squalor.

Many of these people are there because of no fault of their own. Churches, synagogues, mosques, etc, cannot possibly aid all of the people that need help. Local Foodbanks and medical facilities that aid the downtrodden are overwhelmed. The gov't subsidized programs are far from oerfect, but without them, we would return to a horrendous form of society, where there is a lot of discussion about those that are dying, but no one is doing anything about it. Talk is free, it takes money, time and effort to take care of those that are in trouble. All these "caring" individuals on the right do is talk, they are worthless in curing societies ills.

:nopity: for the rich who blame others for their "self imposed" misery
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
24. Another right-wing lie.
Right-wingers are skin-flints, and so are libertarians.

Taxes have been cut each of the last 3 years, and charitable donations have gone down.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
33. libertarians live in bizarro world anyway.
like repooks, they'll shamelessly utter any number of lies to justify their greed and selfishness.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Maybe its because I don't know any libertarians that aren't that way
But my overall impression of libertarians (and I know many) is that they are all about themselves. Essentially, their attitude seems to be one of, "Just do whatever the hell you want and leave me alone."

This of course is much better than the general attitude of the right wing, though, which seems to be one of "Just leave me alone, and don't do anything that is different from what I do".

But, like I said, I know not all libertarians are like that.

But the ones I know are. And they scare the hell out of me.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. 'Just do whatever the hell you want and leave me alone.'
Do whatever you want, just don't add it to my taxes! This country was built on the free market alone!! :freak:

"That's right, sir...the slaves bought at the open market DID, in fact, build the country" :eyes:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. Libertarians.....
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 10:48 AM by deseo
... Like many Repukes, are so blinded by their acceptance of simplistic solutions to complex problems they make me laugh out loud at the absurd propositions they posit.

For example, they will also tell you that if you deregulate business, it will do the right thing. When all the evidence suggests that instead of having an Enron/WorldCom/GlobalCrossing every now and then you will have one every month.

They will also tell you that voluntary environmental controls will work, but will be totally unable to provide a single real example.

Libertarian ideas are so simple a 12 year old could drive a truck through them but that doesn't stop the faithful from dreaming out loud.
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. You'd be suprised how charitable people really are
The other thing to consider is the variety of welfare programs cost so much to administer that'd we'd be better off just cutting people a check and be done with it.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. Yeah, but some people
are just interested in accquiring wealth and possessions.

One common misconception I see and hear alot from conservatives goes along the lines of: "The rich have money already, so they don't need more money. They will spend it, and they will give it to charity".

This was to justify the tax cuts.

But its a lie.

Maybe some will give some of their money to charity, but its usually a very small percent of what they have.

Those who do give to charity are also careful to rub it in your face (O'Reiley screaming at a 9/11 victim's son "I have given more to the families of 9/11 then you ever could" comes to mind). So its not a matter of kindness or moral character, but rather as a way to boost their ego and image.

And, like I said, people always want more. More money, more stuff, more more more.

How else would you explain the motivations behind the actions of BushCo?
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. Billions in every state every year are donated to chairty
Actually, September 11th donations are a perfect example: more was given in charitable donations to families of victims than the government settlements. Just saying that giving to charity is an ego trip underestimates the amount given as well as the motivations. Do you think people gave to 911 victims just to puff themselves up?

I'm not saying pull the plug on all of it but certianly there are better ways to run entitlement programs that actually give pennies on the dollar to the recipients.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. But it's important to look at where the dollars flow...
People are most apt to donate money to causes that they identify with. When you are speaking of people of extreme wealth, this often falls into categories such as the arts and higher education.

Someone posted a little further down the example of Arianna Huffington -- how when she was still married to Michael Huffington, she became amazed at how many of her fellow high-society types would turn out for a $1000/plate dinner to benefit the symphony or museum; but if it came to a benefit for the homeless or to aid drug treatment programs, those donors were nowhere to be found.

This is the problem with relying solely on charitable giving. Quite often, the people who give the most to those who need it the most are people not far removed from that need themselves. By the same token, those who are most able to give are so far removed from these sources of need, that their dollars never find their way to where they are most needed.

Your example of 9/11 victims is not a very good one. The amount of visibility that those causes got was unprecedented. And it was free publicity, much of it provided by the commercial media. I don't see that same media providing the same kind of publicity to issues like homelessness, child poverty, drug addiction, and so on. If anything, the media helps the effort to sweep these problems under the rug and keep them largely out of sight.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. "Are there no prisons....Are there no workhouses?"
--Ebenezer Scrooge
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. Too bad Libts and Repukes want to much 'accountability'...
it would be easier to just cut checks
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. Would definately be easier to cut checks.
Have you read about the 'negative income tax' welfare plan?

In short what you do is establish the poverty line, and then rebate 50 cents for every dollar a person's income is below it. For every dollar they make 50 cents is from their welfare check, until they reach the mean.

The real advantage to this system is that unlike the current system the recipient is not cut off cold turkey as soon as he or she finds work. The problem with current welfare schemes is as soon as people try to get off the dole they are taken off the rolls and end up making less money than while they were receiving subsidies. With the negative income tax as a person finds work his net income never goes down.

For example, if the poverty line is set at $20,000 then the subsidy would be $10,000. Let's say a person on welfare gets some small part-time income from somewhere, say $10,000 per year. Instead of being cut off from the dole the subsidy is reduced by one half of the remainder from the poverty line. 20,000 minus 10,000 is 10,000 one half of which is $5,000. This is in addition to $10,000 of earnings totallying $15,000 per year. Now let's say this person gets at job paying $15,000 a year they are not cut off from welfare, but it scales back. 15,000 subtracted from 20,000 is $5,000 and 50% of that is $2,500. Added to $15,000 wages is $2,500 for a total of $17,500 per year. See how the person's income does not end up with a net loss as a result of finding work?

This system also has the advatage of being easy to administer. There is already a system for collecting income statistics and calculating tax. There is also already a system of paying out checks. Much of the bureaucracy of administering welfare could be eliminated because the system is no-questions-asked and operates on cash. Also, the system gives the person the most useful item to them, i.e. money. There is no need for bartering with food stamps, or qualifying for costly programs. It gives them a large part of what they need to get but, but does not destroy the incentive to find work. Most importantly it does not punish recipients for finding work or saving money as the current system does now.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
70. Do you have any FACTS or citations
to back up that claim or is that just another thing that is generally accepted.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
39. I don't understand this Libertarian claim. They need only look
at very recent history to see it's not true. The late 1800's- early 1900's demonstrated the effect of deregulated markets and pro-wealth policies on the lower and middle classes. It was devestating. It'd be devestating today.

It's like they're living in some sort of theoretical dream land, where factual evidence doesn't matter.
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brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
40. In a word: "No".
I work with a social program. People are basically ego-centric. It's very difficult to get volunteer help and our recent fund raiser was a disaster. (I'm in "Compassionate Conservative" country).


Meanwhile, it's yours and my taxes that will fund the firefighting and the rebuilding here. Even rebuilding multi-million dollar houses that never should have been built where they were. Social programs aren't just for the poor.

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
46. Not sufficiently, that's for certain -- for many reasons
First off, having grown up in a relatively rural area, I can attest to the community ethic that still exists in many parts of the "American heartland" -- where people just help each other out. Unfortunately, this ethic also leads to resistance to any form of government intervention, because since they have traditionally "taken care of their own", they can't understand why others can't simply do the same.

Secondly, charitable giving will not increase until the ethos of righteous selfishness that permeates American society as a whole is rolled back. So long as it is fashionable to get rich and to ostentatiously put your wealth on display, to engage in a never-ending game of "keeping up with the Joneses", so long as our communities are ripped apart by the disintegration of Main Street in favor of the interests of large corporations and Wall Street -- the tendency of people to act in a common interest will be undermined.

Thirdly, it is important to get away from this ethos of selfishness and reinforce an ethos of caring and cooperation, because so long as it remains any attempts by government to deal with the problem will be remote, impersonal and grossly inefficient. The people who are best equipped to take the actions to deal with local problems are local people. While the government can play a role in this, advocating centralization of benefit programs is a horrible mistake that has shown to lead only to inefficient distribution of relief measures along with generating a distrust of these policies amongst the general populace.

Decentralization is the answer, as it is with many of our problems today. Decentralization of control, so that it gets back in the hands of communities and people, and out of the hands of big government and big business.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
47. Here's a good response to this argument
From Steve Kangas:

Argument

Many conservatives argue that if government welfare were eliminated, charity would take up the slack in helping the nation's poor and needy.

In his book, The Tragedy of American Compassion, Marvin Olasky detailed many of the conservative arguments against government welfare and its damaging effects on charitable giving. He argued that what the poor needed were not anonymous welfare checks that seduced and trapped them into dependency. What they really needed was human contact: face-to-face consultations with charity workers who would take a personal interest in their plight and help them work through their problems. Olasky argued that these charity workers would not always see an automatic cash handout as the best solution to the needy person's problems. Rather, "tough love" might be needed instead: getting over a drug addiction, finding motivation to work, getting a deadbeat dad to pay child support, etc. Continuing this train of logic to its end, Olasky argued that churches were superior to government officials in dispensing moral advice; indeed, he called conversion to Christianity "the key to poverty fighting."

Olasky also articulated a second objection against welfare: that it drives away potential charitable donors who do not agree with the government's value-free giving. For example, many potential donors would like to give to the arts, but are already paying taxes that go to support objectionable art like the Mapplethorpe exhibit. Or they would like their donations handled by charities they can trust to teach traditional family values and a proper work ethic. Many conservatives would feel more inclined to give if they agreed with the philosophy of the charitable organization.

Before addressing these arguments, let's briefly review several basic facts about charitable giving in the U.S.

Charity in the United States

In 1993, Americans contributed $126 billion dollars to charity. This averages out to $880 per contributing household, or 2.1 percent of contributing household income. For all households, that works out to $646 per household, or about 1.7 percent of household income. (1) In general, the poor give a greater percentage of their income to charity than the rich. Consider:

Household income and percent given to charity (1993) (2)

Percent of income
Income level given to charity
--------------------------------------
Under $10,000 2.7%
$10,000 - 19,999 2.3
$20,000 - 29,999 2.7
$30,000 - 39,999 2.0
$40,000 - 49,999 1.3
$50,000 - 59,999 1.1
$60,000 - 74,999 2.3
$75,000 - 99,999 2.0
Over $100,000 ?
There are statistical difficulties in determining the percentage of charity donated by those in the richest group, because this group includes billionaires as well as those making "merely" $100,000 a year. However, even if better research clarifies this question, we should remember that different income groups make different types of charitable contributions anyhow. The rich tend to donate to "rich" charities; the poor tend to donate to "poor" charities.

Charity experts have long known that donors give to charities with whom they identify and from whom they might reasonably expect something in return. (Indeed, the Olasky argument above strongly suggests this.) While the very poor tend to donate more to the Salvation Army, the very rich tend to donate more to the arts, humanities and sciences. Because the rich still donate more in absolute dollars, this has caused a serious mismatch between donations and allocations. Only about 10 percent of charitable contributions are specifically directed to the poor. (3)

Furthermore, charities are highly localized. Most are small neighborhood organizations that are tied to their immediate community by their charters, service missions, support bases, and relationships with trustees. They reflect their neighborhood's values, religious preferences, interests, problems and, above all, income. As charity expert Julian Wolpert writes: "Most of the donations that charities raise go to support community churches and synagogues, Y's, museums, public radio and television, universities, and parochial schools -- the services that donors themselves use -- and these funds are largely unavailable for helping the neediest." (4) For these reasons, almost 90 percent of all charity funds are both raised and spent locally. (5) But what this means is that communities with high incomes tend to enjoy well-funded charity programs; those with low incomes tend to suffer poorly-funded ones. This is exactly backwards from the way it should be. It would be more logical to see well-funded organizations transfer their help to the communities that need it most, but their ties to the local community prevent them. Even re-allocating funds within a community is difficult. For example, if an epidemic breaks out in a local community, an educational charity cannot re-allocate its funds or resources to help out a health charity. The situation is akin to a fire department being unable to help out the police department during a crime wave.

The following chart shows how the $126 billion in charitable donations was allocated in 1993:

Allocation of charitable donations (1993) (6)

Type of Percent of
organization total collections
------------------------------------------
Church or religion 45.3%
Education 12.0
Human Service 10.0
Health 8.6
Unclassified 8.5
Arts, culture and
humanities 7.6
Public/societal benefit 4.3
Environmental/wildlife 2.5
International 1.5
Most donations go to churches, but churches are an excellent example of the localized nature of charities. And churches with even national charity campaigns hardly spend a substantial amount of their money on helping the poor. Until recently, the Seventh-day Adventist church had one of the most enviable records of charity collections of any U.S. religious denomination. Yet its department devoted to helping out the poor and needy -- the Dorcas Society -- received only a tiny fraction of the church's donations. Instead, the vast majority went to church administration, religious and educational facilities, and a remarkable world-wide missionary effort to convert other nationalities to their faith. (7)

In a thorough review of charities in the United States, Wolpert summed up the problems of replacing welfare with charity this way:

There is a serious mismatch between the location of charitable resources and needs.
There is a mismatch between the kind of programs that attract charitable donations and the kind that benefit needy people.
Charities are severely limited in their freedom to shift their efforts to the places and programs that are in the most trouble.
The voluntary hand of charity as a substitute for government entitlements might involve objectionable religious, political, and social intrusion into the lives of many people. (8)
The Liberal Response

In 1992, Hurricane Andrew devastated Southern Florida, leaving 137,000 homes destroyed or damaged and 250,000 people homeless. Imagine, for a moment, that there was no federal emergency response, and that charities and private organizations were responsible for the cleanup and recovery. Of course, most of the charities in Southern Florida were destroyed along with everything else, so local charities would be of little help. By definition, the charity response would have to come from other communities -- but, as we have seen, most charities are small and tied to their local communities, and not designed to export their help. Clearly, a disaster the size of Hurricane Andrew calls for a national response -- but how is a neighborhood charity in Seattle, Washington going to ship its few volunteers and resources all the way to Florida?

If thousands of independent, local charities from all across the nation tried to help out the victims of Hurricane Andrew, the resulting confusion, duplication of effort and the lack of a clear, overall strategy would waste much of their time and effort. In this respect, the federal government has a huge advantage over thousands of isolated, disparate charities; it can draw on deep strategic reserves and allocate them according to an organized plan. Furthermore, the operations required to fight a national disaster are far different from the ones required to fight local neighborhood problems. Small charities are not even suited for these different mission requirements.

Many conservatives -- Olasky among them -- concede that the federal government is more efficient at handling national disasters like the Great Depression. However, they argue that in a normally functioning economy, charities are sufficient to handle the everyday poverty they find.

But this is not true either. Our economy is dynamic, and hard times may hit one region one year, another region the next. Many will recall the film Roger and Me, which detailed the horrific unemployment and economic devastation that visited Flint, Michigan when General Motors closed down its auto plants and moved them to Mexico. This single business decision resulted in years of hardship -- but the city is recovering today. California is another example; it did not recover with the rest of the nation after the 1991 recession, and its poverty rate remained high. Yet, within a few years, the state returned to a booming economy.

Economic twists and turns like this are almost impossible to predict. When they do hit a region, the very charity organizations that would help it -- the local ones -- are the least able to help, since they suffer too. So a national charity organization would have to set up offices in these temporarily stricken regions, only to uproot them when good times returned and move them to the next stricken region. That is expensive, and a waste of resources. Compare that to the current federal system, which already has offices everywhere (doing more than just welfare); this makes it much simpler to divert the required funds to the appropriate regions. And as we have seen, charitable donors tend to donate only to their own communities; we should expect to find little support for national charities that spend most of the donor's money elsewhere. Indeed, the current federal system is unpopular for exactly that reason.

Furthermore, charity is a drop in the bucket compared to all the social spending conducted by the government. The total assets (as opposed to merely the income from endowments) of America's 34,000 foundations add up to only about 10 percent of current government expenditures for social welfare and related domestic programs. (9) As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan says, "There are... not enough social workers, not enough nuns, not enough Salvation Army workers" to care for the millions of people who would be dropped from the welfare rolls.

To replace welfare with charity, our society would have to boost its charitable giving tenfold. Which raises an interesting point: conservatives bitterly assail the federal government for making them pay taxes to help the poor. Why, then, would they turn around and happily surrender an equal amount to charity? The answer, of course, is that they would not. Once conservatives are freed from their obligation to help the needy, charitable donations will continue to languish as they always have.

Here conservatives might return to Olasky's argument: that they would feel more inclined to give to charities that espoused traditional family values and conservative morals. But, as we have seen, Olasky's idea of charity is to dispense advice, not funds. There is no question that a charity that simply tells the needy, "Get a job," is less expensive to run. But it should be pointed out that Olasky's entire argument is really a disingenuous change of subject. The original argument was that charity could replace welfare. In Olasky's world of privatized philanthropy, this is not the case; welfare would be eliminated but charity donations would not rise to replace it. This is a different argument, one about the benefits of eliminating most financial aid to the poor, not replacing it.

Finally, there is a matter of accountability. Private charities are notorious for spending 90 percent of their revenues on administrative costs. Many will certainly remember the fund-raising efforts of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, who raised millions ostensibly to spread the word of God -- but actually spent it on themselves. In such cases, a donor's only recourse is to stop giving once the scandal breaks. These scandals are often belated, because the media does not actively search out scandals in the private sector; they need to be tipped off to them. The scandal may put this fraudulent charity out of business, but there always seems to be another to take its place.

By contrast, the federal government is held much more strictly accountable for its actions. The media conducts an intense and proactive search for scandals in government, and their discovery becomes front page news. This results in enormous political pressure to correct deficiencies. Just one example is FEMA -- the Federal Emergency Management Agency. This is the agency commissioned with helping Americans recover from natural disasters. Under President Reagan, the nature of these disasters was assumed to be nuclear, and the agency poured millions into the creation of nuclear-proof command and control structures that would survive and "win" a nuclear war. Needless to say, it was completely unprepared to deal with the many natural disasters that were actually occurring. It took FEMA three days just to show up after Hurricane Andrew, and they snarled its victims with an unforgivable amount of red tape. Media reports sparked such public outrage that Senate hearings were held. Senator Fritz Hollings called FEMA "the sorriest bunch of bureaucratic jackasses I've ever known." (10) Under the intense glare of the national media, reforms occurred. James Lee Witt took over the ailing organization and completely turned it around. Today, it is one of the best functioning agencies in government, and is winning praise even from its former critics.

In sum, the claim that charity can replace federal social spending -- and do it better -- is a hopelessly unfounded one.
http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/L-welfarecharity.htm
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #47
57. Face to face human contact
rather than a check sent to their apartment sounds like a wonderful goal. What can we do to make this more likely?

I hate the fact that we lock single moms and their kids into giant housing projects where they don't ever see middle class people with moms and dads going to work every day. In some places, we've removed the poor from our sight, and that's got to be awful for them -- and awful for us too.

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Now we're talking a complete re-alignment of society
Some of the older "planned communities", like Columbia, MD, addressed this issue in a positive way. Most housing areas were completely mixed -- that is, you would have people of vastly different economic circumstances all living on the same block together.

We have since moved in the opposite direction, to a point where those who can afford it live in "gated communities" built to keep all "undesirables" out, while poorer people are forced to live in communities of their own.

Personally, I think that this is one of the biggest hurdles we need to overcome. If those who have a little more are made to see those struggling without as people, then it is that much more difficult to categorize them as some insignificant "other" that doesn't enter their consciousness.

I often disagree with many things you espouse on these boards, Yupster -- especially economically-speaking. But in this instance you have hit the nail on the head.

In some places, we've removed the poor from our sight, and that's got to be awful for them -- and awful for us too.

Yes, it's definitely awful for all parties involved, because it reinforces the denial of our sense of humanity and community.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. Um....
A large majority of people who live in housing projects, at least in my area, are the working poor. Just because they live in subsidized housing, doesn't mean they don't work. It means they don't earn a decent enough wage to pay for a home in the burbs.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
51. Ask Arianna that question....
While she was still with hubbie and doing the GOP socialite charity fundraising thing, she found that $1000 a plate tickets to help the symphony or ballet sold like hotcakes, but trying to get folks interested in social charities that dealt with homelessness/drug addiction/etc. was near impossible -- they just never stepped up to the plate.

She noted that this inequity in GOP giving was one of the prime motivators for her change in political philosophies.

People forget that there was a REASON that social programs came into existence -- THE PRIVATE SECOTOR WAS JUST NOT HANDLING THE JOB ON ITS OWN. PERIOD.



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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
53. There was a time when all charity was private
It was called the nineteenth century.

If you want to see how well it worked, read the novels of Charles Dickens.

Not only were the charitable efforts inadequate, they also reflected the belief that people were poor because they were lazy or immoral. One of the worst examples was debtors' prison: if you lost your job and couldn't pay your bills, you were thrown in jail. (How you were supposed to pay off your bills if you were in jail is something I've never figured out.) Another example was the workhouse. If you were absolutely desperate, you could get a spot to sleep on the floor and a couple of bowls of gruel per day, but in the meantime, you were forced to do pointless work: breaking rocks, turning a wheel that wasn't connected to anything, walking a treadmill, or picking oakum, a thorny plant that has no practical use.

The problem with all charity going private is the same as the problem with all schools going private, if history is any indication. They would "cherry pick" the "deserving poor" and ignore any poor people that they thought unworthy.

As much as we think of the Victorian era as a golden age of morality and stability, the actual result of ignoring the "undeserving poor" was rampant crime, child prostitution, horrible epidemics of typhoid and cholera, and few avenues of escape from generation to generation.
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onebigbadwulf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
62. No
Look at Columbia. The poor are segregated from the rich by barbed wire fences. This is what will happen to America in a true capitalist libertarian/republican world.
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ignatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
63. Has anyone ever read Frank McCourt's wonderful autobiograpy,
Angelas Ashes? Extreme poverty with a small safety net by the government(going on the dole) who treated the needy with no compassion and total disdain.

The Catholic church was just as bad, giving a pittance but letting them (the needy) know how "inferior" they were.

No way a voluntary system would work. We will have cities filled with beggars and will have to clean dead bodies from the streets on a daily basis.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
65. WRONG
With all the huge tax cuts chimpy gave to his rich friends this year, charitable giving is DOWN. That's pretty good proof his theory is bass-akwards.

It's the middle class which supports charities - NOT the wealthy. And the middle class is hurting bad.
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livinontheedge Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
66. Doubtless, the wealthy should be forced through taxes to help
the poor. They would not do so in sufficient numbers left to their own devices. The tax system will force these people to do the right thing and aid those less fortunate.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
67. Hasn't worked in Past
inspite of edicts from most of the world's major religions...so why would one believe 'simple' altruism work.

It must be regulated out of a need for compassion and security...
Why?
Because when you reduce some humans to the state of an animal, you tend to treat them all with the same way
and
All poor people will not just go quietly and starve under bridges...
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
72. Of course not.
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GeekLife Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
73. Another question
how many people here, or that you know, do not donate to charity and instead send that money to the government, above and beyond their taxes owed each year because they think the government will do a better job with it?

I am a betting man, and I bet the answer is NONE have.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Wow!
That sounds just like a GOP talking point. You sure you're in the right place? :shrug:

It's also a false analogy. As was pointed out in previous posts — Did you bother to read ANY of those, particularly the ones dealing with the historical precedents that show such a system doesn't work? — people like to direct their charitable donations to specific causes that are important to them or those that they feel worthwhile.

I donate to charity, but I would never take that money and give it back to the federal government because I would not want it to be used for corporate welfare or for bloated military spending.

I do not mind paying my fair share to maintain our way of life here, and I would even agree to being taxed more if it was SPECIFICALLY earmarked for social or educational programs.

So, what else you got?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
74. Not in the slightest
It's a mix of the two.

I recall 9/11 and how Rosie O'Donnell was pissed at the celebs who did or gave nothing.

The middle class, lovely sheep as they are, probably are legitimately caring.

But all the rich I know seem to prefer their money and just talk nice.

I'm probably jaded by now, but we do need government. Every time we deregulate or remove control, the truly degenerate and greedy take over. We need government.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
75. No
Some people would donate, but not enough to help everyone.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
77. Perhaps at 5 cents on the dollar
You think the Freepers are going to pony up for the poor and sick? They want the weak to die off or just to be disenfranchised and voiceless.

ROFLMAO!
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