Kobe Cheered by thousands - meanwhile victim continues to get slammed

[janekat]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/7089229.htm

Yea for rapists!!! (or at least for "potential/accused" rapists).
"Open season" on victims and women continues.....

I never realized what disregard that many Americans have for women until this last few months. Guess I was just happily living in a little "cocoon" of ignorance - thinking that the majority of Americans (men AND women) had some level of respect for women.

But after seeing large groups of people cheering someone who is either a rapist OR at the very least had adulterous sex with a 19 year old girl, voting a man in as governor who has sexually assaulted dozens/hundreds of women and committed stuatory rape, and then having a bunch of middle-aged/old men telling me that they should be dictating to me whether or not I can terminate a pregnancy - I've come to the realization that we are thought of as little more than "property" by most in this country.

Of course, maybe it's because many women seem to have little respect for themselves or for their fellow women. We saw many women who ran out and voted for Arnold, probably many who cheered for Kobe (including HIS wife), we had several congresswomen who voted
to take away fellow women's rights to terminate a pregnancy. Why should a man or a middle-aged married woman tell ME - a single woman of child-bearing age whether or not I can dictate what happens in my own life? It's so paternalistic...


"Bryant loudly cheered in his preseason debut
ANAHEIM, Calif. - Kobe Bryant, welcomed by a thunderous roar when he was introduced, played last night for the first time since being charged in July with sexual assault.

Bryant joined Shaquille O'Neal and two celebrated new teammates - Karl Malone and Gary Payton - for the Los Angeles Lakers' exhibition game against the Los Angeles Clippers at the Pond.

To chants of "Ko-be! Ko-be!" Bryant pulled up and made a jumper a minute and a half after the opening tipoff.

....DENVER - Prosecutors in Bryant's sexual assault case yesterday accused defense attorneys of leaking sealed details to the media and asked a judge to consider punishing the defense team."

[CMT]

1. Of course I don't want to pre-judge his case

but California also just elected a groper/sexual predetor as Governor so why not welcome someone accused of rape as a hero?

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

114. you've got issues

you keep bringing up people who have nothing to do with rape.

And you continue to use sex scandals/consensual sex as vehicles to drive home the right wing talking points.

Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

[ShaneGR]

2. Tell her to change underwear next time

Doesn't look so good when you accuse someone of rape and SOMEONE ELSES body fluid is in your underpants.

Sorry, I believe in INNNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.


NOTE: I am not pro-rape and I believe rapists should be punished to the fullest extent. I also think this woman's story, and her past, has a lot of holes in it. I also haven't seen any real evidence other than second hand reporting.

So, I'll reserve calling Kobe a rapist. And if people want to see him play basketball, so be it.

[denverbill]

10. Jesus. So rape victims can't have boyfriends?

According to reports I've heard, semen remains in underwear even after several washings.

[Rich Hunt]

11. No shit

Let's hope this guy doesn't have a girlfriend.

:puke:

[Skittles]

52. I hope

he doesn't have a sister, mother, aunt, daughter, etc.

[okieinpain]

14. you sure about that, I've never heard that one before.

.

[OneTwentyoNine]

19. The DNA is gone after one trip though the washer.....n/t

....

[denverbill]

27. What the hell do you wash your clothes in, sulphuric acid?

I heard this from on the radio from someone connected to the case.

Sending clothes through an ordinary wash and dry cycle removes most of the dirt and organic material, but traces always remain. It more or less like a radioactive half life. You get rid of 90% every wash, but it never goes down to zero.

[spooky3]

29. Are you a forensic science expert?

"(If you have already washed the clothing it is still possible that forensic evidence can be found on them but you must mention to the doctor or police officer that the clothing has been washed.)"

A very quick yahoo! search turned this up.

http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/facilities/ecsas/help.html

How about we all agree to this: We don't presume that Kobe is guilty AND we don't presume that the alleged victim is lying, motivated by greed, crazy, etc. We wait until the trial and evidence is presented and cross-examination takes place before forming judgments.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

67. Will you please stop with the Broderick red herring???

Are you on NewsMax's payroll????

[spooky3]

74. are they laundry experts? Come on demrebel, stick to the topic at hand.

Clinton's failings have nothing to do with janekat's original post or these replies.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

89. um, blue, pink, green, apricot

IT WAS CONSENSUAL!!!!!!!!

What is your problem????

[ShaneGR]

70. I can't believe we're arguing about the shelf-life of semen

Look, I like to look at things deductively. I'm fond of looking at all of the evidence, and then coming to a conclusion of why, followed by how.

I don't jump to conclusions about the guilt or innocence before I've seen all of the evidence.

So, when a woman shows up to a hospital, claiming one guy raped her, and she happens to have semen from someone else in her panties, that is the type of thing that makes me go.... hmmmmmmmmm. I don't just toss something like that aside because I think he did it. That's horrible logic.

There is other stuff about the woman too. She had tried to commit suicide on several occasions. She was intrigued by fame, having tried out for a bunch of those TV reality shows. She bragged about sleeping with Bryant at a party just after the incident. Heck, she went up to his room on her own accord. Now, I'm not saying that she wasn't raped, she might have been! But all of that makes a powerful case for REASONABLE DOUBT.

As far as I was taught, that's what our system revolves around.

[spooky3]

77. there are things on BOTH sides that raise questions.

From the posts I have seen over the past few days, the underlying point is that women (and many men) here are sick of questions being raised BY LIBERALS only about the women's side of things. Please try to "get" this point.

[ShaneGR]

85. Gees, I haven't seen much more but negative on Kobe

The side declaring Kobe guilty is MUCH larger on DU. Look at this thread!

[TLM]

109. As I understand it there was not just one guy's semen...

but semen and/or public hair from two guys, neither of which was Kobe.


That does certianly call into question the validity of her claims about Kobe... that and the fact she didn;t claim to have said no in her first interview.

[StaggerLee]

3. I agree that the attitude is very ugly towards women in this country

But why do you refer to Kobe's accusor as a 19 year old "girl"? She is a woman.

[spooky3]

18. Several weeks ago I was taken to task for pointing that out

about a 28 year old woman, called a "girl" by another DUer, who I hope would not refer to a black man of the same age as a "boy" for reasons that should be very clear by now. "To me, she is a girl," he said. Go figure.

[janekat]

21. Guess I'm an old lady now- used to get all upset with being called a girl

when I was that age...but truthfully now that I'm older and realize all of the "immature" things I did at that age - and many friends/acquaintances did - it's hard NOT to think of women that age as (under 20-21) as girls.

A lot of women that age tend to end up dating guys who are jerks (jocks and good-looking guys). I know I put up with a lot of nonsense back them that I would NEVER put up with now. I put myself in stupid situations that I would never allow myself to do now.

[Sequoia]

4. Let's have a trial before we blame Kobe

because so far I'm not that convienced that it wasn't agreeable to both parties. Consider she's white and he's black and it happened in the state of Colorado. Also consider white man's horror of white women wanting to have sex with a black man over a white man and along comes famous Kobe. For one this this victim has some serious issues but what was she thinking when she agreed to go to his room? If it's true that he did force himself on her against her will that's another thing but let's see what comes out in the trial. But I have a real problem with these fat white men in Colorado just itching to do Kobe in. I could be wrong but I grew up too long in the south where blacks were lynched and burned for daring to love a white woman.

As far as Arnie and the aborotion issue I'm with you and it angers me that the peole voted for him. If in fact they really did or if the polls were tapered with. Men have no business on this earth or universe to tell women how they should or should not bear children. It's getting way out of hand and I hope it's overturned.

[janekat]

38. What is wrong with Colorado? Thought that was a pretty normal state.

n/t

[Chomskyite]

59. No doubt

Shades of the To Kill a Mockingbird case, eh?

Wherever you stand on what the media's told you so far, let's hope the jury isn't a bunch of hayseeds.

[CatWoman]

5. As a woman

and a black woman, I say let's wait until he's tried before being convicted and labeled a rapist.

It's only fair.

As for the alleged victim, who is slamming her?

[pnb]

6. I agree...

...but you shouldn't have to preface your comment with "as a woman" and "as a black woman."

Anyone should say he should be tried first...even this white man.

[CatWoman]

24. I chose to do so to make my position clear

and if any of you think there's no racial overtones to this case, wake up and smell the 40 ounce.

I say as a woman, because from reading the countless "Kobe" threads, he has already been deemed guilty -- overwhelmingly by women.

I say as a black woman, because I wanted to qualify myself further.

[janekat]

33. People are talking about how she had "dirty underwear" and had

sex with 3 men, etc. I believe that it was only 1 man. I don't like the tactics that the defense is using AT ALL.

I didn't say that he is a "rapist" - only that it's a possibility and that at the very least - he did engage in some very scummy behavior. A married man having sex with a woman who is a complete stranger and who is that young is pretty scummy behavior in my book. I know that a lot of jocks do it - but that doesn't excuse it.

I've been attacked 3 different times by men - (I don't think that is too unusual as most women have been the victim of at least a few attacks). I was lucky to have been able to fight them off (I'm 5'7' and an ex-athlete). I know many other women who have also been attacked (one friend was locked in a closet for 6 hours by some guy who was angry that she wouldn't have sex with him).

I would be a more sympathetic towards Kobe if I didn't hear about the injuries that the women sustained - I find it VERY suspicious. In addition, I find the way that his lawyer is conducting herself to be outrageous. This woman is representing HIM - and he is going along with her actions.

[CatWoman]

34. Yet his defense attorney is a woman -- go figure

I've been raped before. There, I said it.

And if I'm willing to have an open mind about these charges, well, ............

[janekat]

49. I'm very sorry to hear that. You are incredibly forgiving....

I'm not half as forgiving as you are. I have to admit I'm still very steamed about having been victimized several times. It really sends me over the edge when I hear about someone being raped, hit or victimized (man or woamn) etc. I'd have to excuse myself from the case if I were chosen as a potential juror.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Catwoman IS very forgiving

I think rape in some ways is the worst crime. I have friends and family members that have been there, and they still haven't healed even after many years.

[Alenne]

35. Using your logic

What was that girl doing in his room? Everybody knows Kobe is married. Why was she trying to have sex with a married man she barely knows. That is pretty scummy behavior. That makes her possibly a liar.



You can't have it both ways.

[janekat]

53. She was delivering a sandwich. I have to admit I think she used bad

judgement to go all the way into his room and to have kissed him. It's not something I would do now. When I was young and naive and 19 - who knows? I did a LOT of stupid things at that age....

[janekat]

55. I didn't know he was married. Don't really follow pro basketball though

used to follow college...

[janekat]

75. They're BOTH idiots in my book

I tend to excuse her a little bit more because you tend to do a LOT of stupid things at that age...

[Beaker]

7. "meanwhile, victim continues to get slammed"

no pun intended, right?

[NJCher]

8. attitudes toward women have taken a step backwards

First of all, no one knows if it's true that there was DNA; this could just be extremely nasty tactics to put pressure on the victim. If something's come out in the last 12 hours, let me know but that's the last I heard.

Second, I, too, was sickened when I saw people cheering him on. At the very least, he should have the common sense and decency to back out of playing until this is over.

Third, Janekat is right. The attitudes towad women in this country have taken a big step backwards, as have nearly all attitudes in general, thanks to republican propaganda being spewed 27/7 with no effective rebuttal.

Let's not forget that Californians also lined the streets while OJ did his infamous Bronco ride.


Cher

[okieinpain]

15. hey, women vote and approve of a lot of these things

.

[jafap]

20. I am not a decent person

but I play one on TV.

We watch people like Kobe and OJ and we marvel at their athletic ability (and love them when they help our team win). We develop affection for them, and like to think that they are decent people as well as great athletes. So when they are accused it is like a first cousin or an uncle being accused - we support our friends.

True, alot of that is built on mirage and PR, like one book said about Cheryl Tiegs - she was cheesecake marketed as apple pie.

If he has been falsely accused you expect him to put his career on hold? Why should it bother you if people support him while they believe him to be innocent, or even want him to be innocent? Attitudes towards women may have taken a big step backwards, but I am not sure that this is evidence of that.

[Padraig18]

9. The only 'slamming' I heard this week was from the judge

He said that were he not required by law to give the prosecution every benefit of the doubt, after having heard testimony and reviewed the available evidence, he'd have otherwise thrown the case out of court, i.e., dismissed all charges for lack of probable cause.

[Name removed]

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[Padraig18]

58. I don't know, tbh.

All I know is that the judge was pretty scathing in terms of what he thought about the prosecution's case. He said if the decision had been his alone to make, the whole thing would have been dismissed.

You don't hear judges talk like that about strong, clear-cut cases, to my knowledge...

[janekat]

71. Didn't know that... Do you have a link or anything?

n/t

[Padraig18]

103. I could google one up

But I heard the account on the ABC evening news. :hi:

[Rich Hunt]

12. she's getting slammed

...all over the 'net, that's for sure. Some of the things I've read are unsettling. I can't believe how many cowardly misogynists are out there.

[StClone]

16. This may be horribly crass

Because Kobe's lawyer is a woman, but how would she (or he) like it crying rape and be so treated?

[TLM]

112. I get so sick of this crap...

any time anybody even suggest Kobe might not be guilty... that this woman might be lying or unstable... that means they hate women.


Even the judge is saying the case has almost no merit... guess he hates women too.

[sendero]

13. I heard a detailed acct...

... (that came from the pretrial hearing supposedly) and to me, it sure sounded like rape. But, not so much that I think he will be convicted, because there probably just isn't enough evidence.

Had she gone straight from the hotel room to the police station, she'd have had a lot better case, tho' I can understand why she didn't.

What is really sad to me is all the people accusing her of being some kind of gold-digger. If she were a gold-digger, she would have contacted Kobe's people and asked for a payoff. Instead, she will now be subjected to a horrible trial in which all kinds of unfounded accusations will be levelled, and for what. For justice, that's what.

[Padraig18]

17. You should read tthe judge's comments about the case. n/t

[TLM]

113. I do not think she's a gold digger...

I think she was looking for fame... not money.

That's just my personal opinion.

"Instead, she will now be subjected to a horrible trial in which all kinds of unfounded accusations will be levelled, and for what."

If she is lying, isn't that EXACTLY what Kobe is being subjected to?

[OneTwentyoNine]

22. Who to believe in these cases? Its a toss up....

Well...there's the overpaid crybaby millionaire sports figure who thinks the World is there's for the taking. They've been pampered so long that they think any and all they do is accecpable.

Then...there's the gold digger,shake-em down type of women who cuddle up to these guys,go for drinks,back up to someones room and have sex and then either say they were raped or try and get a quick pay-off.

Was is consenting between the two adults? Who the hell knows unless you were in the room. This isn't the first and won't be the last of these types of cases.

David

[sendero]

36. Yes....

... at this point, talking about the case is merely what I would call "the cynicism test".

To wit, are you more cynical about the sense of entitlement among pro athletes, or more cycnical about women in general.

It's an easy question for me.

[DemLikr]

23. He remains innocenct until convicted...being cheered for basketball

skills. Makes sense to me.

I doubt if anyone in the arena was cheering the fact that he's been accused of rape. But acknowledging that ruins a good "victimization of all women" angle on the story, I'm sure. :eyes:

[CatWoman]

26. I think someone is trying to liken the Kobe cheering

to the cheering the O.J. verdict elicited in the black community.

No one gave a shit about O.J.

They were cheering what they considered a just verdict.

[janekat]

37. They were cheering him becasue of the rape charges - showing support

But when you think about it - these people are cheering on a man who is an accused rapist. At the very least he is a hypocrite and an adulterer - who had sex with a 19 year old woman who is a complete stranger AND at worst - he IS a rapist.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if they cheered him on AFTER he had been acquitted - but there is a chance he could be guilty. The fact that she had all of those injuries makes me suspicious of him.

[Alenne]

25. How are you better than them?

You already know he is a rapist and they know she is a lying gold digger. You've made up your mind without hearing the evidence so why can't they.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

31. Beg pardon??????

Clinton was tried in court for rape???

[Alenne]

32. Not even the same thing

Mrs. Broderick said Clinton raped her. She didn't report it as a crime when it happened and there was no trial. It was an accusation made years after the rape supposedly happened.

[demrebel]

43. This is what is wrong with our party

We love to be hypocrites.

We need to stand up and be different. We should set the standard against lying. If you lie to us, your out.

We would win. But you can see as I have posted this, people agree lying is wrong but everyone does it they say. It is still wrong and that is the way to get people back to voting for us.

Look at all the griping about Bush but if we held the standard on lying, Gore would be president as he and our leaders would have gone to Bill and said you lied, you must go.

But we supported a lie and got Bush.

I live in Ca and Hawaii and lying by our party leaders in both states has brought in Repub Gov's. In Hawaii the crooked and most powerful dem is headed for prison. We need to clean house, get some fresh blood. Dean is exciting. I would love to see dean vrs bush, but the dean talking now.

[Alenne]

44. Maybe you should start another thread

Nothing in your post had anything to do with what I wrote.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

50. It's very sad that you have bought into the lies

free your mind, and the rest will follow.

[Alenne]

51. What truth?

Clinton lied about have a relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Your post was about rape.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

62. Clinton lied about a blow job.

And that was something that was none of our business.

Jennifer Flowers was clearly lying, the hotel where she said she had the affair hadn't been built when she said they'd had it.

Paula Jones was bought and paid for by the republican party. The case was dismissed.

And nobody but a freeper would have believed Clinton raped Broderick from listening to her.

[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

69. R-I-G-H-T

If people cared so much about lying, why hasn't the poplace shown Bush* justice, Moussilini style???

[Kathy in Cambridge]

72. It's FAR worse to lie about going to war where THOUSANDS die

than about a blowjob. Get some perspective and stop parroting those right-wing lies that you hear on Fox.

[DrWeird]

76. Lying about personal matters that's nobody elses business..

doesn't mean much to me or most other people.

That's probably why Clinton's approval rating was at 80% at the height of the Lewinsky scandal while Bush, who lied about killing thousands of people, is under fifty and fallnig fast.

We would also have Gore if the Bush election campaign hadn't prevented thousands of black people from gettting their votes counted. Here's to spreading democracy around the world, except of course in the united states.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

90. You've got one thing right. Bush is certainly a liar.

And mentally retarded to boot. Just like the minority that voted for him.

[Name removed]

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[Kathy in Cambridge]

101. Keep drinking that koolaid!

:eyes:

[Democat]

116. Why is this user still on DU?

Right wing talking points.

[Doomsayer13]

30. no more trial by the media

I hate goddamned media circuses that interfere with the court of law. Both sides are wrong, I say. One the one hand you have people who want Kobe to burn before the hearings have even started, and on the other you have people who want to smear this woman beyond character assasination.

[david_vincent]

41. Current New York mag (Oct. 27 ish)

has a piece by Michael Wolff on this very thing. He opines that Bryant's defense team strategy is to conduct a media circus trial because that is the most likely way to get the charges swept under the rug. According to Wolff, Eagle County can't afford to fund a prosecution effort that would be sufficient to counter a media circus. So, if you think Wolff's thesis is accurate, then you'd have to bear in mind throughout the coming media circus that the foofaraw is being fanned as a strategic maneuver by the accused's legal counsel.

[Name removed]

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[Snellius]

39. Just like Arnold

The Revenge of the Rapists

[Name removed]

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[Alenne]

42. I was going to alert on your post

But you just did exactly what the person who started this thread has done.

[DrWeird]

47. Jesus liked it up the ass.

Does that mean you have the right to rape him?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[CatWoman]

92. who are you to demand ANYTHING of him????

Especially since his God has a bigger dick than your God????

[kertnom]

96. What an insulting and offending statement

I demand of you to apologize for that comment.

[demrebel]

99. Don't they have some rules on here

I am new, this guy seems to have real problems.

[DrWeird]

98. Shh, Cat! I'm on it.

Don't spook him! I've got him right in my headlights!

[CatWoman]

102. ok

:D

*popping popcorn*

[blondeatlast]

115. I'm coming the other way . . .

[DrWeird]

95. Jesus said it himself "Satan, get thee behind me."

And he's your leader and saviour not mine, I didn't like how he supported slavery.

But anywho, Jesus didn't have a problem with premarital sex. But he didn't like self-righteous bastards who judged without lesting to be judged. Frankly, if he could hear you judging this woman he'd be spinning in his grave. You're the one that should apologize to Jesus.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

106. Did YOU read the Bible?

(hint: Joan of Arc is not Noah's wife)

Because there are several passage where Jesus endorses slavery. Like the one where Jesus says that "if your slave really screws up than give him a good whipping, but if he didn't do it on purpose just slap him around a little."

I'll apologize when you find that passage that says Jesus was against premarital sex, and the one where he prefers to porking women over men.


btw... "ungrateful" wtf?

[demrebel]

105. Jesus is not in the grave and he would tell her as he did

go and sin no more.

[KFC]

46. I Don't Consider That Woman a "Victim"

Unless the prosecution proves that Kobe raped her. Then she is a rape victim.

If they do not convict Kobe, then he is the victim of her lies (reputation damaged, endorsements lost, ...).

We just don't know who the victim here is yet.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

63. How so?

Because she slept with other men she'd therefore lie about a rape? that doesn't follow.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

68. Are you side from syntax bad?

If Byrd were still a racist he would be a republican. It's the party of, by, and for racists. From Trent Lott, to John Ashcroft, to George W. Bush giving a campaign speech at a white supremacist camp. It's no wonder minorities overwhelmingly vote democratic. You can bet good money that if you see a man with a sheet, there is a republican underneath.

If she were a member of the KKK, then yes, that would be important. One in the court of public opinion because KKK members (and other assorted republicans) are natural liars and pricks in general. And two in the court of law, because that would establish a motive.

Why are you comparing sex to being a KKK member?

And look, just because Jesus was a liberal, and a homosexual, doesn't mean that you can go around taking his name in vain with fake morality.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

79. That's what I do best.

Hurt the republican party and drive freepers away.

Save your prays for when I see you in hell.

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

88. Yup, I'm a republican distruptor.

I signed the agreement when I came to DU to not be a republican distruptor. And then went on and on about how wrong it is to lie. That's be alright. A big old lying hypocrite freeper.

That's the republican party for you. We just wouldn't be the same if we weren't hypocrites and liars who accused other people of being hypocrites and liars.

[kertnom]

94. You still haven't apologized for your outrageous remark

n/t

[Name removed]

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[DrWeird]

104. "It is because of people like you that we are hurting"

That warms my heart.

[janekat]

107. AND if he weren't a "sports hero" - Yes

n/t

[spooky3]

61. Would all of you please WAIT until the trial is over?

No one has all the evidence yet. It's just as unfair to assume the defendant is guilty as it is to assume that the alleged victim is lying. When people jump in at this stage so certain about who's telling the truth, it smacks of bias. PLEASE be fair to both parties.

[janekat]

66. Please note - I'm not saying that I think Kobe is guilty FOR SURE

I am highly suspicious of him after hearing about this woman's injuries. I very much believe that she WAS raped by someone. Most of the evidence points in that direction. If I didn't hear about the injuries to her - I would be much more neutral about it.

In addition - I would feel much more concerned that a black man might get railroaded if it were in Mississippi and he weren't a multi-millionaire sports hero. THAT makes it MUCH MUCH less likely in my book.

[Padraig18]

73. I'm not saying he did or didn't

We've only heard a very small part of the evidence--- the evidence needed to establish probable cause. I do note, however, that the judge was scathing in his remarks about what he thinks of the State's case. That doesn't happen very often, janekat. :shrug:

[janekat]

81. Didn't know that

n/t

[Padraig18]

87. Yep.

He said if he hadn't been forced by law to consider the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution, and concede every 'tie' or ambiguous area to the prosecution, he would never send the case to trial.

[janekat]

110. hmmmm. well guess I'll have to be a bit more neutral about it...

unless I hear the judge is a misogynist weirdo or something.

Isn't it kind of inappropriate for a judge to make a statement like that?

[Padraig18]

111. It's unusual, but not inappropriate.

I've been trying to say all along that we should see what the evidence says, and not believe either one automatically. I have even wondered if she WAS raped, but not by Kobe, but maybe by the b/f after he found out she had consensual sex with Kobe, e.g. ... My mind is open on everything.