Coversation between a Clarkie and a wanna-be freeper.

[Renew Deal]

These are some of the arguments I would expect from the right. This was posted on the Clark blog. Enjoy

woden14 joined the room
Todd Manning: hello woden
woden14: hi
woden14: wats so great about clark
Todd Manning: well...i think he's got a great vision for the U.S...and a plan to get us out of the mess we're in
woden14: mess
Todd Manning: yeah...jobs...deficit...iraq
woden14: well hes pro abortion which is disgusting for one
woden14: iraq?
zohny_h joined the room
Todd Manning: well...i don't believe in abortion either...but i don't think it's the government's place to legislate morality
woden14: i think its disgraceful and treacherous to turn on iraq foreign policy while us troups are in active engagement
Todd Manning: iraq is costing us $87B a year and we can't afford it
Todd Manning: i don't suggest we turn on our troops...but we need to get out of there
woden14: what an easy thing to do for votes but what a disgrace especially for an ex soldier
zohny_h left the room
Todd Manning: well...i served 28 years...and iraq is turning into another vietnam
woden14: i was nearly physically sick when i saw him run down our troops involvement
Todd Manning: how so?
woden14: well for one its is disrespectful to those guys who fell in the conflict to gain political votes
Todd Manning: he didn't run down the troops...he criticized the strategy...because there is no strategy
woden14: and more importantly and dangerously it undermines troops still actively engaged
woden14: yeh well the us troops were betrayed in vietnam the conflict could have been one but for political manoevering
Todd Manning: i don't believe so....what's demoralizing is being misused
woden14: when the usa won a great victory against dangerous islamic militants
woden14: the very same people who danced for joy on the streets of bagdad as the twin towers burned
Todd Manning: yes...and now the war is over...so let's turn it over to the peace keepers and get out of there
woden14: well theres truth in that
Todd Manning: there was no connection between baghdad and the twin towers
woden14: but clark questioned the initial involvement
Todd Manning: i agree...and we should question it
woden14: oh so there were people dancing for joy about the attacks in geneva ,paris or london
Todd Manning: we have a lot of enemies in the world...and that's part of the problem
woden14: the most dangerous thing that threatens the west at the moment is islamic extremism
woden14: it threatens our very existence
Todd Manning: i agree...but you can't fight that battle with an infantry division
woden14: clark fails to understand this
crazynavy (crazynavy2003) joined the room
Todd Manning: clark thoroughly understands this
woden14: well i prefer iraq out the way
Todd Manning: well...it's out of the way now...we have to get our troops out of there...$87B/yr is too much
woden14: and i lost any respect for your guy when he showed a very shallow side
woden14: At least Bush has the guts to go get this assholes
woden14: these
Todd Manning: "shallow"????
woden14: and if the iraqi war was so questionable why did Britain support the USA
Todd Manning: why did the UN NOT support the war?
woden14: because the UN is full of clark type characters
woden14: no backbone
Todd Manning: clark has more backbone than anyone you've probably ever heard of
woden14: i would have attacked any islamic nation if they had murdered one USA citizen let alone nearly 4000
Todd Manning: iraq had nothing to do with 9/11
woden14: this is the worst thing that ever happened to the USA
Todd Manning: 9/11 was very tragic...but it had nothing to do with iraq
woden14: well they are all in league with each other !!!
woden14: and why should the US take the risk
Todd Manning: we need to take this to the world court of opinion...that's what the united nations is for
woden14: and answer this
woden14: why did clark say nothing before the war started
Todd Manning: clark wasn't in a position to make a statement at that time...he wasn't in the government at that time
woden14: simply because he jumped on the potential unpopularity of the campaign,TYPICAL
Todd Manning: well...if it's unpopular...maybe it isn't the will of the american people that we should be doing this
woden14: wouldn't it have been refreshing if he came out and said "well done guys,we're in this together
woden14: i mean britain didn't even have to come to our aid
woden14: it was nothing to do with them
Todd Manning: to the troops...yes...to the leadership that made the decisions...no...but it true that we're in this together...and now it's time to get out
woden14: yet they made it their problem too
woden14: hats off to Great Britain
Todd Manning: well...they are loyal friends...unfortunately...their faulty intelligence is part of the problem
woden14: The troops will be coming home as soon as its safe for peacekeepers
Todd Manning: it can't be much safer than it is now
woden14: and clark doesn't help matters by making cheap statements
Todd Manning: "cheap"????
woden14: its doesn't help in getting other nations involved ,as u say this is necessary
Todd Manning: yes it does help to get other nations involved...terrorism is a world problem
woden14: damn right US soldiers deserve more respect
woden14: especially from a General
Todd Manning: yes we have a lot of respect...but when the leaders misuse the troops...it's inexcusable
woden14: no the troops loved it that what soldier want a fight
Todd Manning: yes...and that should be used cautiously...the military is a great hammer...but every problem isn't a nail
Todd Manning: we could have gone in with special forces and surgical strikes like we did very successfully in afghanistan...but no...bush wanted to crush another country without justification or provocation
woden14: sorry phone went
Todd Manning: hello some
woden14: well i think Bush exorcised the ghosts of nam in doing such a great job but i agree we need to sort something out a bit faster
woden14: but i worry about clark
Todd Manning: we need to get the world community on board and make this an international effort to rebuild iraq...we can't afford to do it alone and shouldn't even if we could
woden14: it takes unpopular decisions to be a great leader
Todd Manning: not necessarily...unpopular doesn't necessarily imply greatness
woden14: yeh but it would be so easy to theorise and take the easy option
woden14: Bush and Blair took a chance
Todd Manning: well...what's important is to do the right thing...and the right thing is for us to get the UN in iraq and the US out
woden14: and to knock them for it when it has paid off is quite repugnant to many people
woden14: yeh get them in
Todd Manning: i don't call this a payoff...the only people who got paid off were cheney's buddies
woden14: but don't knock what the guys did out there
woden14: i thought clark being ex nam would not repeat history
Todd Manning: it isn't the guys...they did what they were told...it was the leader's fault that we went in without an exit strategy
woden14: the usa could have wiped the fllor in nam but for political disquiet back home
Todd Manning: bush is repeating history...not clark
Todd Manning: and we still LOST the war
woden14: yeh but this has all happened in a very short time
woden14: we're talking months here
Todd Manning: at what a cost...$150B and counting...maybe you should pay for it
woden14: u're talking like we've been there for years
Todd Manning: i'm talking $$$$$$$$$$
woden14: hey money is nothing when we're talking about international security
woden14: that shouldn't come in
Todd Manning: bullshit...money is everything...if we don;t stay afloat economically...it isn't worth it
woden14: did Britain think of the money when she came to the US side
Todd Manning: well...blair was just trying to cover his ass for the faulty intelligence
woden14: no it was a matter honour
woden14: hey thats disgraceful turning on Blair like that
Todd Manning: "honour"...are you brit or aussie?
woden14: when british troops lost their lives
Todd Manning: people lose lives when we go to war...that's why we should make sure it's worth it
woden14: to talk of poor intelligence ,bush wanted the war all along
Todd Manning: right...whether it was justified or not
woden14: yeh right iraq posed a threat period
woden14: all these muslims do
Todd Manning: iraq posed no imminent threat...faulty intelligence said they did...and bush lied about it
Todd Manning: and blair lied about it too
Todd Manning: lies...lies...lies...it was all a pack of lies
woden14: no idon't think he did
Todd Manning: it's been proven
woden14: ???
Todd Manning: the intelligence has been made public and it has been examined and it was all a pack of lies
woden14: well we're supposed to believe lies from saddam himself then are we
woden14: not our intelligence services
Todd Manning: well..it turns out he wasn't lying
Todd Manning: our intelligence was lying
woden14: omg
woden14: u believe a foreign dictator over our own guys
Todd Manning: i believe the truth
Todd Manning: not one single WMD
woden14: why don't u just go live in one of these god foresaken places if u think we're all so corrupt
woden14: and not woth a dime
Todd Manning: because this is my country and i will fight to preserve it from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC
woden14: u'll see lies and corruption like u've never seen
Todd Manning: that's not my problem
woden14: well i got more faith
Todd Manning: blind faith
woden14: hell no there are times when we gotta stand up
Todd Manning: and the place to do that is the united nations
woden14: like iraq like somalia ,i would have carpet bombed that hell hole when US troops died
woden14: they were there to help those god foresaken people
woden14: iraq and somalia
woden14: yall forget that
Todd Manning: i'm sure you would have carpet bombed a lot of places...fortunately it's not your decision...and we're going to have an election to remove from power those who think that way
woden14: damn right
Todd Manning: glad you agree
woden14: no i was talking about the bombing lol
woden14: i don't think we'll ever agree
woden14: but good talking to ya
Todd Manning: quite possibly...but we have the right to disagree
woden14: yeh sure
Todd Manning: what a country!
woden14: i was just shocked when i saw clark saying all this
Todd Manning: saying all "what"?
woden14: about iraq
Todd Manning: well...he speaks the truth
woden14: yell well like i say
Todd Manning: even bush' father was smart enough not to try and go into iraq alone
woden14: good talking to ya todd
Todd Manning: you too
woden14: no iraq was a clear cut victory
woden14: sorry was saying goodbye
Todd Manning: we don;t seem to be winning anything
woden14:
Todd Manning: that's great!!!!!!!!!
woden14: yeh
woden14 left the room


If they're going to make these arguments against someone as credible as Clark, how is Dean ever going to survive?

[BJ]

1. You have to remeber that in dealing with reactionaries...

...that most do no have the capacity for critical thinking.

[sangh0]

2. Todd Manning needs some propoganda advice

Mr Manning should realize that ther's nothing to gain in trying to persuade a Freeper of anything. Instead, the goal is to appeal to those who are listening in, people who aren't Freepers. That means that Manning should not just explain why the Freepers arguments are wrong. Manning needs to steer the conversation to facts and topics that play to our strengths and not the Freepers.

When the freeper talks about carpet bombing Arabs, and the threat all Muslims posed, he should respond by asking why we're not bombing Saudi Arabia, since 15 of the 19 hijackers come from there. Why are we buying their oil instead, which puts billions of dollars in the hands of people who fund terrorists?

WHen then Freeper complains about how Clarks statements hurt the morale of our troops in Iraq, the response should be "Yeah, right. The bullets, bombs and rpg's aren't hurting their morale, but what Clark says is" and then go on to quote what Republicans said about the military under Clinton.

The Freepers arguments depend on people not knowing the facts. When confronting them we must remember to include those facts which people don't know and which reflect poorly on the conservatives.