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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:28 PM
Original message
Beware of COINTELPRO

I'm starting to notice more and more posters in GD and GD:Politics beginning to speculate whether LIHOP (they let it happen on purpose) or MIHOP (they made it happen on purpose) theories behind 9/11 may in fact be true, or at least require further investigation, in light of recent revelations regarding the coverup of fabricated evidence that led us into war, and the president wanting to spy on anti-war protestors, etc, etc.

The danger is that too many of us will be pursuaded by 9/11 theories that have been designed by ring-wingers to make us look like the tinfoil hatters that they want to portray us as being. For example, I believe that the video "evidence" showing how the aircraft flying into the buildings had been modified with weapons and laser beams to blast a hole in he side of the WTC buildings was in fact fabricated for just this purpose. I know many will probably disagree with me on this.

During the short time that this post is allowed to remain in GD, let the Flames Begin!

:tinfoilhat:
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't understand your Subject Line
Are you implying that COINTELPRO was just a myth propagated by right-wingers?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. the OP thinks COINTELPRO agents are propagating disinfo here
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 06:36 PM by 0rganism
i.e., seeding the conversations with tinfoil hattery to make us less credible than we already are.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think that's what he means.
Internal psy-ops, so to speak.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Not at all....
I'm trying to imply that COINTELPRO (counter-intelligence) may have been behind the creation of the videotape showing the "evidence" for MIHOP.
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. 'Um...what exactly is happening in the picture in your icon? :)
Sorry, ah've just got a naturally dirty mahd, so ah'm thinking...

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'm thinking it will be changed very soon :)

I have it on good authority that Arnold posed for this picture taken by the famous gay artist Robert Mapplethorpe.
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Oh heck!!
That's Arnold? I knew it was a naked male butt. See mah dirty mind never fails me ;)
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's certainly not me....

I'm on blogs too much to have time to work out my body like that.
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I did think it was you :)
Yes I did!!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. what does your icon mean?
:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. It's the
Louisiana state flag :)
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Oooohhhh...
I was afraid it was something Federal. I love Louisiana :)
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I had
Thought you might have thought it was something Federal, judging by the three tin foil hats ;)

I'm glad that you love Louisiana :)
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. I'm so sorry,
but I'm not following.

I've spent a considerable amount of time in my professional life dealing with COINTELPRO matters, so this is quite perplexing for me.

What,exactly, do you think COINTELPRO was?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Based on part of the definition here...
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 08:54 PM by AntiFascist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

"aimed at investigating and disrupting dissident political organizations within the United States"

"Many of the techniques used would be intolerable in a democratic society even if all of the targets had been involved in violent activity, but COINTELPRO went far beyond that...the Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association, on the theory that preventing the growth of dangerous groups and the propogation of dangerous ideas would protect the national security and deter violence."

"2. Psychological warfare from the outside: The FBI and police used myriad other "dirty tricks" to undermine these movements. They planted false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of targeted groups. They forged correspondence, sent anonymous letters, and made anonymous telephone calls. They spread misinformation about meetings and events, set up pseudo movement groups run by government agents, and manipulated or strong-armed parents, employers, landlords, school officials and others to cause trouble for activists."


My hypothesis is that the creation of the 9/11 MIHOP video showing highlighted areas of the planes being modified to attack the WTC buildings would help reinforce the idea in the general public that MIHOP believers (and conspiracy theorists in general) are gullible and crazy, once this video began to be accepted by conspiracy theorists.


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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yes,
I do know what COINTELPRO was. I've lived with it since 1977.

So, forgive me, but what are you comparing?

Are you just making a blanket statement about conspiracy theory?

Are you claiming that there was no such program as COINTELPRO?

Are you using the acronym as a title for ANY conspiracy theories that involve the government invading the rights of citizens?

Are you very familiar with COINTELPRO?

I'm really confused by your OP, still.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Sorry, I did not intend for the issue to be so confusing....
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 09:25 PM by AntiFascist
what I'm saying is that after 9/11 there were a number of people digging up evidence supporting MIHOP or LIHOP theories, for example the very valid evidence of airline stock option trading which spiked the day before, and which is mentioned below in other parts of this thread. What I am proposing is that when the government became aware of the conspiracy movement they may have feared the backlash, particularly with 9/11 victim families getting involved. So, they quickly got to work and produced a video which they knew might quickly become accepted by many within the conspiracy movement. They also knew that this particular theory (the modification of the planes in order to attack the buildings) would also split the movement, and make most people question the sanity of the conspiracy theorists, and this would help in disrupting the movement.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about all this, I'm just trying to make the point that COINTEL is something that we should be watching out for.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Ah...........
You're talking about the possibility of a government involvement in the 9/11 incidents.

COINTELPRO was something completely different.

You might want to learn a little bit about it about it here - it's a very good overview: http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm

Sometimes people get carried away with acronyms, and they don't know precisely what they're doing.

Thank you for cleaning it up.

It might be that the current NSA warrantless search matter could be interpreted as a latter-day COINTELPRO, but, the original is over, dying with J. Edge Hoover, and for that, we can all be thankful.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. No, that's not what I'm talking about!

I'm talking about possible government involvement (post 9/11) in the breaking up of a dissident movement. This may or may not have anything to do with government involvement in 9/11 itself.

How closely were you involved in COINTELPRO?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Now you've got me confused again
Seriously, why are you using the acronym COINTELPRO?

I wasn't involved in COINTELPRO. I represent clients who were affected by it.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Maybe its not precisely the correct acronym to use....
I'm just talking about people (who may not even be officially part of the government-afterall the government subcontracts much of its intelligence work) who are used for breaking up dissident groups. The "dissident group" in this case are those who participate in political activities pushing the idea that the government was somehow responsible for 9/11. You can understand why the government would be interested in breaking up such a group, whether or not the government actually had anything to do with 9/11?

I may be using the term "COINTELPRO" more as an adjective than a precise designation, and I guess I can see where a lawyer familiar with actual COINTELPRO activies might require precise definitions. Again, my apologies for causing any confusion. "CONITELPRO operations" are often referred to on political blogs to refer to these types of activities. Who knows what, if any, is the official, secret government designation for such a program, until it might get declassified.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Thank you
The bloggers are sloppy and incorrect.

COINTELPRO was a huge piece of our history, and everyone should acquaint himself with at least the basic parts of the story. Using it in any other way is, in my opinion, misleading. Witness my confusion here.

It's like calling every way World War II. It's just inaccurate.

Go forth and educate those bloggers, my friend. Without an understanding of history, people are condemned to repeat it.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. I stand corrected....

what would you recommend as a general term to describe these types of operations? I firmly believe that this IS a very important part of history which may be repeating itself within the government.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. They're eternal, and
they deserve their own names, so as not to confuse one with the other - or old veterans such as I.

Call them for what they are - call them what the government calls them, as in the case of COINTELPRO, which was named by J. Edgar himself - but make sure each program has its own name.

Watch out for the acronyms, too. You can learn a whole lot, I've noticed in my 30 years as a Washington lawyer, about the people who refer to the President as "POTUS," the Supreme Court as "SCOTUS" - they're usually characterized by two distincts sets of behaviors:

1. they watch too much TV and are online more than is healthy, and
2. they haven't any idea what they're talking about.

It's not "repeating itself," by the way - it's ongoing, and it will never stop. It's part of the government, not an insidious force separate. It's part - alas - of what we are.

Seriously, read up on COINTELPRO. You'll have one whale of an experience learning about that little baby, especially when you keep in mind the period in which it took place.

Merry Christmas, and all that jazz................
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Thanks, and....

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, to you as well!

I will definitely be reading up more on counter-intelligence and a lot of related stuff. It would be interesting to know the name of the current program, if it has been leaked already. Also, the historical importance of the McCarthy era cannot be overstated.
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pocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. so believing in MIHOP or LIHOP means you're crazy?
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 06:38 PM by pocket
I guess we should just all go back to sleep.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No, no!

I for one think there is strong evidence for LIHOP, and I wouldn't even argue against all the MIHOP theories.

All I'm saying is beware of the blatent attempts to make us look crazy.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. 911 was an INSIDE JOB...
No way in hell did osama defeat our intelligence or capabilities to shoot down a potential air threat without the express permission of the Bush Crime Family.To me its LIHOP for sure,no ifs ands or buts there is plenty of evidence to support LIHOP. As for MIHOP, there isn't enough first hand proof(yet)to satisfy me but who knows what a whistleblower may do in time.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. It's just waiting to come out
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Please come out..we need ya...
its really no joke..look at the damage since 911.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. good point
seemed right after 9-11 there were a lot of stuff on the net, put out quickly.

Some say too quick.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. thanks!

:yourock: (I hope :tinfoilhat: )
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Ive all ways considered that possibility as very real
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. in fact, they may even have taken the opposite tack now, lambasting
anything above the status quo as COINTELPRO or agents provocateur...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Good point....
Trying to figure out COINTEL could drive one mad.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. ok, who edited my post....

to say ring-wingers?!!!

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:
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Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. I have family that works at Homeland Security -- BE ENRAGED NOT SCARED
I have a sister in Homeland Security in Atlanta. I got to go to work with her one day and partake as a roleplayer, whose job it was to train undercover agents in Atlanta -- who basically tried to find me and others as "surveillance detection" in the city.

The people she works with are all pretty normal people. They do normal things just like us, and they are not a Gestapo or SAVAK or anything along that line.

But they are conducting massive secret and covert surveillance, placing agents all over america, getting informants into Greenpeace, PETA, UfPJ, ANSWER, and all other organizations, and are being ordered by an extremist ideologue sect that wants to militarize the police in this country so as to better combat terrorism.

One report my sister had read:

"Police need to stop having the 'fisherman' mentality and adopt the 'hunter' mentality."

These people in Homeland, NSA, FBI -- they are our brothers and sisters, but they are under the control of extremists and people with fundamentalist trust in the police state. We have to win the ideological war and win our country and freedom back from these people WITH the good people in the government who are willing to work with us.

You have little reason to be afraid -- a relative few have been seriously hurt by these new police programs. But you have every reason to be ENRAGED! You need to be angry at what is happening around you, and let your government officials know that they CANNOT behave like this.

I know a lot more than most of you about police operations because of my sister, and I just have to say that none of you should ever doubt for a second that this is a war worth fighting for the very free way of living without surveillance or intrusion.

Don't give up the fight!
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. Great point!
and I would add that certain female Democratic presidential candidate who attended one of their prayer meetings may also be getting brain-washed by them. Just my point-of-view, but I agree that we should not be afraid of them.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. i want questions answered. that isnt tin foil. 1st one, bush said he
saw the first plane fly into the building adn then said what bad pilots they were. no one saw first plane go in until the next day. and the second plane he was sittin in a class room when it happened so wasnt an ooops, mistake. he said this the day of the event and then months later either dec or jan. i want an answer. i want to know how the man saw the first plane go in

does that make me tinfoil

i want to know why he ahd two ground to air rocket missiles on the roof of his hotel night before, if he didnt have a clue about hijacking

does that make me tin foil

screw you for telling me i am outrageous because i have questions

i want to know about the money he paid the taliban right before.

i want to know a lot of things.

would eb a lot less tinfoil if at any point bushco would answer the question we have about so many things that the man consistantly lies about
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. i want to know why jeb declared marshal law right before
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 08:13 PM by seabeyond
i want to know what happened to all the airport papers he picked up form the flight school the night of 9/11

i want to know if they have the black boxes, what are on them. and why do we hear about this yesterday, how many years later, thru a leak

i want to know about the isreali art students on new jersey shore filming the plane going in and doing a little dance and cheering

you have to earn trust. bush has earned the opposite of trust
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. These all sound like valid questions to me....

provided they all can be backed up by good evidence. Where is the info on the ground-to-air missiles positioned on Bush's hotel the night before?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. it was in an excellent timeline. the only one i would have to go
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 08:59 PM by seabeyond
search for that isnt easily proven that happens, you pick as a possible tin foil wanting proof. you do the research. it is out there. i did all the research for two years after 9/11 and became informed. i did my job. before accusing us of tinfoil, be open minded enough to spend the time to investigate. i spent the time on election theft. 2000, 2002 and 2004. i became informed. i say something to someone they tell me tinfoil. though they have no desire whatsoever to look at the information that is available to them, then insist i prove it to them. i can make a really long listm then they dismiss it all and tell me to document it. well,.... not my job. i already did it. you go do it before telling people they dont know what they are talking about. if i could find it so can you.

i will look in documents but i have tons. ranging all the way to the fbi dude involved in terror investigation adn the cole investigation, being pushed out by freeh and then getting a job in the towers, only to die. or the airlines that had stock activity the day of. or the bush brother that was part of security? of the airport, dulles? ...........

you start researching the tin foil and see if you arent a tad bothered. i have yet to meet a person, that actually seriously put in the time to check this shit out, that they did come back and say, wow..... wtf
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I couldn't agree with you more, and I encourage anything....
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 09:12 PM by AntiFascist
that valid research will bring to light. The question of airline stock option trading prior to 9/11 seems extremely important and I'm amazed that information about who was actually conducting this trading has been covered up so well. It only seems to indicate that people very high up may have been involved in hiding this info.

I'm not trying to dissuade conspiracy-related research. Keep in mind that Watergate was also a conspiracy. All I'm warning about is that anyone who is new to the LIHOP (or MIHOP) camp please be on the lookout for theories or "research" that may reek of counter-intelligence.

Can't you see my point of view that the video footage I mention above, if it was in fact fabricated, may be working against all the good research that people like you (hopefully) are doing?

On edit: what if this video footage was planted in the same way that falsified documents were planted for Dan Rather?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. i see things on the theory that i absolutely dump. you are right
but because there is a little bet of extremism here and there cannot mean we have to ignore it all.

i am still looking for that site. it was kick ass. was a timeline from the night before thru the day of 9/11. after bush election in 2004, i started deleting things i was so pissed
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. still looking found this
From "Some hijackers may have resided or trained at U.S. military installations":

iii Saeed Alghamdi.

(A) The address on his driver's license was 10 Radford Blvd. on Pensacola NAS, “a base road on which residences for foreign- military flight trainees are located.” The Pensacola base is known as the ‘Cradle of U.S. Navy Aviation,’ according to a high-ranking U.S. Navy source who was interviewed by Newsweek magazine.

(B) Someone with the name “Saeed Alghamdi” attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California.

...

v Mohammed Atta.

(A) Air Force spokesman Col. Ken McClellan said soon after the attacks that a man whose name was Mohamed Atta had attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell/Gunter Air Force Base in Montgomery, Ala.

vi Abdulaziz Alomari

(A) A man with the name Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School in San Antonio, Texas. Abdulaziz Alomari was reportedly a former Saudi Arabian pilot.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/undersurveillance.html

Some other links, including the official fuzzy, semi-denial:

Similar uncertainties, according to the Department of Defense, continue to surround the possible association of hijackers with training programs for foreign military officers at U.S. military installations around the country. Although the Defense Department has acknowledged that people with the same names as those attributed to hijackers were associated with such programs at bases in Florida, Alabama and Texas, a spokeswoman said yesterday they weren't sure whether those individuals were in fact hijackers.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-usprob212376908sep21.story

Did Terrorist Pilots Train at U.S. Military Schools?
http://www.madcowprod.com/issue05.html

September 11th wasn't an intelligence failure. It was an intelligence success.

Just look at Atta and friends in Florida. These people were not fundamentalists. The whole scene has the stink of protected drug trafficking, covert ops and BCCI.

Jeb Bush seized flight school records at 2 AM on September 12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. coincidence. still looking thru files
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11

Since most of the arguments made here around the events of 9/11 are of the LIHOP/MIHOP variety, I thought I'd walk a mile in the coincidentalists' shoes, and lay out the argument for coincidence.
Happy coincidenting!

That intelligence agencies, politicians and terrorists have conducted criminal business together is well established, but BCCI and Iran/Contra were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that.

That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a record setting $25 million is embarrassing, surely, but to draw sinister conclusions is foolish.

That Marvin Bush sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing.

That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and Osama’s brother-in-law and al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just a one-in-a-million fluke.

That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is. That al Qaeda was active in Kosovo on the same side as NATO merely demonstrates that nothing is black and white.

The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members to receive training in the United States, are merely sour grapes because he was fired for making such wild accusations.

That so many in the Bush White House had expressed the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled means nothing more than being in the right place at the right time.

That in May of 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be a “can do” sort of guy.

That the standing order for shooting down hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, since the order was reversed shortly after 9/11.

That Dave Frasca of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear odd, but I’m sure there must have been a good reason for it.

That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s need for attention.

That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didn’t read anything about it in the official report.

George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 in the Oval Office, it’s true, but they were just old colleagues catching up.

That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill is a lucky twist of fate.

Newsweek’s report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it’s a small world, after all.

That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just one of those things.

That Hilliard’s plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney before Seal’s murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

Reports of insider trading on 9/11 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so any profit-taking was merely coincidental.

That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, his driver's license and a video "how to fly planes" in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

The very mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, is the vilest kind of anti-Semitism and should not be dignified with a response. That the stories were also reported in the Israeli media is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Jewish Left.

That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 – one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a life-fly simulation of multiple hijackings – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a tragic coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a newly-qualified substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

That the black boxes were either never found or were unrecoverable was a first for these particular boxes, but there's a first time for everything.

That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ detailing the events of the day, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is just one of those things.

That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American safer to know their federal agents are on the ball.

To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.
Le Figaro’s report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that two CIA agents met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama masterminded 9/11.

That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.

That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act only shows that appearances can be deceiving.

That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

Sibel Edmonds is an attention-seeking nutcase. And since John Ashcroft has gagged her and classified her public testimony, we should speak no more of her.

But most of all, remember: there are no secrets, governments would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. there you have it....
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 09:47 PM by AntiFascist

To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

<snip>

governments would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.


It's obviously in the government's best interest to point out the sickness and gullibility of the conspiratorial mindset. I wonder how many civilian casualties in Iraq are considered acceptable?

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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Open up the 911 commission with a totally independent panel
we call it the 911 'ommission report. So many things regarding the FAA and NORAD were not addressed.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. yup
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. cointelpro was real
i'm afraid i've harbored many of the same thoughts that have crossed yr mind

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
49. I still can't decide on LIHOP or MIHOP, but the whole pod theory
definitely contaminates the factual information pool. There are some great resources out there for learning the truth about 9-11, but it always makes you second guess everything when you see the ones so passionate about missiles, pods, etc...

I still want to learn as much about the steel from the towers as I can though. The scientific arguments behind it are quite persuasive.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
51. The days of revelations are upon us - all we knew starts to connect
I don't feel I need to visit any theories. Little by little the mainstream news collects them all in one story (i.e - W's powergrab attampt for war powers in the US and Daschle's anthrax letter).
In fact, I'll just go reread through my news archives - see what suddenly became relevant.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. The danger I fear.....

is that this all turns into another Iran-Contra, where if much of the truth did come out it would be argued that it could have devastating economic consequences. Even if Bush is forced to resign, will the underlying mechanisms that enabled the power grab (probably leftover from Iran-Contra) remain in place?
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