My conversation with a Freeper today.

[Historic NY]

he was ranting about how he couldn't understand what * did was wrong. He is trying to protect the country and if people didn't do anything wrong they wouldn't have anything to fear. I explained to him about the FISA court, how it works in obtaining search warrants. I said they even have 72 hours to do one after the fact.

He bring ups Clinton spying, yes but it was done legally with search warrants. * is doing an end run around the court and is not naming targets by not obtaining the necessary warrants. He kept on going back to Carter, I then told him it was Carter who established the NSA law as it pertains to the FISA court etc.

He keeps going on.....I draw the conversation back to the wiretapping & spying and I asked him how he would feel if the next President was a democrat and used it to obtain info on his opponents. That got him stuttering a bit..they can't do that, at that point I had him. Sure they can just like * is, by not spelling out the reason for a search warrant and naming the reasons why.

I then capped it off by asking if the local police could just go and kick in his door. Well, not without a reason he say its against the law. I then explain it the same thing, if the cop needs a search warrant so does the government. * cannot legally listen in w/o getting one. I tell him know the 4th amendment it protects you against his unreasonable search & seizure.

He kept tying this to the Patriot Act, I finally told it has a catchy name Patriot, do you feel better in that you loose your rights because of it. He couldn't understand why the Congress would vote it down. I finally told him because there is stuff in it that violates our rights as American citizens.

I was tempted to use tell him once the 4th amendment is gone, then they will take out the 1st & 2nd next. By then he did agree a bit saying they must be lazy about getting warrants. I left it at that, but told him if the police did this you be screaming bloody murder.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Well, sounds like you made a wee bit of headway there. :^D

[ClassWarrior]

2. Excellent job - and you bring up an important meme for us to repeat...

"Unreasonable Search & Seizure." That's what Dubya**'s doing.

NGU.

[Historic NY]

5. I think that is what got him.........

he knows I was in LE for 30yrs and I wasn't allowed to do it.

[ronnykmarshall]

3. Did you get any blood or brain matter on you?

Ya know, when his head exploded?

[donheld]

4. Do you have a link to any article saying Clinton did it with warrants?

I need to get my hands on one. I really get tired of hearing "Clinton did it" from freepers.

[MadisonProgressive]

8. You're going about it all wrong

The Freepers have the obligation to show you their proof. 9 time out of 10 they have nothing. The other time they provide something that doesn't actually prove a goddam thing.

[donheld]

9. Maybe the burden of proof is on them

but i'd still like to find an article about this.

[MadisonProgressive]

12. I understand, but it may be hard to find

The news media is much more likely to report bad deeds than good.

[Historic NY]

14. Check this its debunked........

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002

<snip>

4: Clinton, Carter also authorized warrantless searches of U.S. citizens

Another tactic conservatives have used to defend the Bush administration has been to claim that it is not unusual for a president to authorize secret surveillance of U.S. citizens without a court order, asserting that Democratic presidents have also done so. For example, on the December 21 edition of Fox News's Special Report, host Brit Hume claimed that former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton issued executive orders "to perform wiretaps and searches of American citizens without a warrant."

But as the ThinkProgress weblog noted on December 20, executive orders on the topic by Clinton and Carter were merely explaining the rules established by FISA, which do not allow for warrantless searches on "United States persons." Subsequent reports by NBC chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell and The Washington Post also debunked the conservative talking point while noting that the claim was highlighted in the December 21 RNC press release.

From ThinkProgress, which documented how internet gossip Matt Drudge selectively cited from the Clinton and Carter executive orders to falsely suggest they authorized secret surveillance of U.S. citizens without court-obtained warrants:

What Drudge says:

Clinton, February 9, 1995: "The Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order"

What Clinton actually signed:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) <50 U.S.C. 1822(a)> of the Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve "the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.

The entire controversy about Bush's program is that, for the first time ever, allows warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and other people inside of the United States. Clinton's 1995 executive order did not authorize that.

Drudge pulls the same trick with Carter.

What Drudge says:

Jimmy Carter Signed Executive Order on May 23, 1979: "Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order."

What Carter's executive order actually says:

1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

What the Attorney General has to certify under that section is that the surveillance will not contain "the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party." So again, no U.S. persons are involved.

<snip>

[Historic NY]

15. Another source

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/21/8157/6595

[xchrom]

6. i take my chapeau off to you!

well done!:applause:

[C_U_L8R]

7. Warrants

Yes if the 4th goes away.. then so does the need for warrants.

Not just eavesdropping but searches.. in your home, in your car, in your business...

I'm sure some of these Freeps have more than a few "illegal" automatic weapons.
well guess who can come and get em.. yup you voted for em... your good old Reich Wing gestapo.

How can the freeps be such blind idiots !???

[johnnydrama]

10. it's funny

How you read about this, and making up your own mind about the situation tell him how you feel.

He, on the other hand can only tell you what Rush tells him.

You know when somebody counters with the Clinton or Carter argument that you have them.

[hwmnbn]

11. You have patience, my friend........

I swear it's like talking to a child about long division. You have to walk them thru it step-by-step until they see a pattern. When the freeper's bulb goes on, you know they got it, even if they don't admit it.

At least your conversation was civil and restrained. Congrats to you. :toast:

[Hyernel]

13. Karl is going to have to alter the Kool-aid recipe...

...some people are beginning to develop a resistance

[EOTE]

16. The innocent don't need to worry?

Have that freeper read this account and ask him if he still thinks that the innocent have nothing to worry about. EVERYONE needs to be screaming from the rooftops about this. "It can't happen here", that's what they always say. Little do they know that it's already happened. I have never been more distraught about the state of affairs in this country than I am now. It's not paranoia dammit! It's real and it's happening now. Please, if you haven't signed a petition pertaining to this, do so now. A very good friend of mine has been affected by this and it's made me sick every since. Please, please, let your voice be heard in this matter.

[KharmaTrain]

17. Next Time Ask Him Why There's No Declaration Of War

I keep hearing this bullshit of "we're in wartime". Well, my parents told me all about war time. I went through their effects and found ration cards, books on raising a "Victory Garden" and my father's very, very simple will that he filled out days before shipping off to England and on to France. People rationed about everything. The rich didn't get tax breaks. People actually felt we needed to win this war as a powerful German or Japanese army could go rolling down their streets. Now ask him if this jives with what he live with today?

Wars are fought against individuals and nation-states...not words like "terror". Since terror is a human condition, we will always be at "war". Try and get this person to describe exactly who we're fighting. My bets are you'll get a cartoon character that doesn't exist and has been manifested by years of misinformation by the corporate media and the Repugnicans.

The real capper is, "if this is a war...why isn't there a declaration?" What's the problem? With that declaration, a lot of what asshat has done that was and is illegal could be viewed in a different light. A declaration of war also comes from the Congress and is that blank check subjugation of power to the executive that Crashcart and this regime so badly want. My question is...since they control all the marbles, why isn't there a declaration? I've asked this question and still get no answer...other than it would mean being open and honest about a war for profit and this regime wasn't going to do that.

[Tsiyu]

18. You handled that very well, HNY

:applause:

"And another thing":

any evidence obtained without proper procedure (like warrants) is going to be ruled inadmissable in court. They know this.

So why would they collect information they do not intend to use for law enforcement? So they can know what their enemies are up to? So they can keep Americans in a state of fear and anxiety? Because they are just that bizarre?

BTW, I really miss New York this time of year. Is it going to be a white Christmas for you?

[incapsulated]

19. Good job, also try...

The old:

Do the authorities have the right to knock down your door and search all of your property, look at your phone calls ect.

No...

But if you aren't "doing anything wrong", what do you have to hide?