GM & Ford are dead.

[screembloodymurder]

I just took a ride in the new Toyota RAV 4. Folks, the competition is over and I declare Japan the winner. If you own stock in an American car company, sell, sell, SELL. There is simply no comparison.

[Kralizec]

1. You coulda said this 10 years ago. (nt)

[Greyhound]

16. I did say this 20 years ago. n/t

[ny_liberal]

115. why do you guys hate the auto workers union?

????

[Greyhound]

129. Love the Union, hate the management that keeps making inferior crap. n/t

[TommyO]

167. Both Ford and GM can put out good cars

both have excellent examples of what they can do with cars. The new Ford Fusion, along with the Buick Lucerne and LaCrosse are very good cars at great price points. The Chevy Impala is another. All of them have gotten great reviews and have been praised for their fit and finish.

[EOTE]

173. Thank you....

It seems that some people can't look beyond a car's country of origin to see what value is.

[Greyhound]

187. Yes we've been told this before. It has always been lies in the past, so

many people will not believe it now. And I will reiterate that it is not the fault of the employees, it is the hereditary management that permeates the US manufacturers employ.
Why is it that all of the best looking domestics are re-worked models from 40 years ago?

[question everything]

183. Don't hate them, just follow their example

In 1979, during that energy crises when Japan first came with its gas efficient models and GM was coming with its X cars - when you had to wait several months for any and when dealers that did have them tacked a few hundred dollars to an $8,000 (I think) car, we decided to buy American.

We bought a Ford Mustang that we were glad to finally get rid off. Even though we purchased in the Upper Midwest it clearly was not fit for a cold climate.

A co-worker was then on her second Toyota, sold her first one at $300 less than what she paid three years earlier. Another co-worker's spouse was a mechanic at Ford. What were they driving? A Toyota!

This was the last American car that we've had. Since then we've had an '82 Volvo and a '93 Volvo - that we still drive. An '86 Camry and a '98 Camry that we still drive also.

[ny_liberal]

2. bad news for all those US workers :(

GM and Ford still employ 100,000+ US workers

[Deja Q]

13. When profit is put over the reasons profit are made, ALL LOSE.

When you don't put money into ideas and the people who make the ideas.

It is NOT an American car when you nix American jobs and shove 'em to China. It's then a Chinese car.

(replace "China" with Name-Your-Country as appropriate. )

[MercutioATC]

19. People will still buy cars...and Honda and Toyota will employ them.

Wages and benefits on par with union employees, too.

[ny_liberal]

69. mostly in Asia ++ all profits go back to Japan

I'd much rather see our car companies make it

[MercutioATC]

72. Why? So they can continue to run their companies into the ground?

This isn't an issue of people not buying cars. It's an issue of GM and Ford not providing the cars people want to buy.

If a company insists on producing ugly, unreliable, gas-hogging cars that nobody wants to buy, they SHOULD fail as a business (IMO).

[Egalitariat]

111. Who do you think made the Rav 4?*****

nm

[Greyhound]

130. LOL! GM alone used to employ that many in M. Moore's home town.

I feel bad for the men and women that are losing their jobs because of the shitty management decisions that have been made for the last 30+ years. The culture is sick and things will get worse until it is changes.

[Clark2008]

3. I would never own a Japanese car.

Don't like 'em. No personality. No differences.

My next car is another Mustang, thank you. My current one is nearly 12 years old and has only been in the shop ONCE (besides regular maintenance stuff).

Sorry. You can like those Japanese cars, but I never will.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Interestingly enough

if you like a Toyota Celica (I believe that is the model), it is built here in the US by union workers. I believe the only GM model made in the US by union workers is a Saturn.

[Clark2008]

8. Don't like Toyotas or Nissans or Hondas

All ugly, ugly cars.

No personality.

[Greyhound]

23. It's a metal box that takes me from point a to point b.

If it does that ALL the time and doesn't force me to be on a first name basis with a mechanic, it's a good car. Unfortunately amerikan cars haven't done that for a very long time. I love the retro mustang, but it is retro, IOW they can't come up with anything new. plus it handles like a pregnant sow in the twisties, and apparently we've forgotten how to make a car go fast.

[beam me up scottie]

28. That's why Mustangs aren't true sports cars.

They're muscle cars and boring as hell to drive.

[maveric]

41. Boring?? You've got to be shitting me.

I just took my 06 up CA, US Hwy 1. With the 5 speed trans, on those switchbacks it was far from boring!
Tell why driving a 4-6 cyl japanese car is excting? I've driven them and found them to be anything but exciting!

[beam me up scottie]

43. They're muscle cars.

In other words, B.O.R.I.N.G.

They can't even compete with real sports cars when it comes to cornering.

[maveric]

55. LIke I said I just took one the windiest hwy's in the US . Hwy 1/CA

And it handled the road like a champ. It was actually a thing of beauty.
Is cornering all the excitement? My Stang corners great and can go 140 mph if I choose to open it up to that (which I havent yet).

[beam me up scottie]

58. My father drove the same road in a Mustang and it sucked.

If it has to slow down to creep around corners (like it's cousin, the Escort), how much fun is it to drive?

Sports cars are supposed to handle like sports cars when cornering.

It's a muscle car.

[maveric]

84. My experience was much different.

It handled the switchbacks like a charm.

[Greyhound]

122. Have you ever driven a real sports car? If, as I suspect, you've always

driven American Metal, your frame of reference is skewed. I haven't driven the new one and maybe they really improved the front end, but I'd have to see it to believe it.

[susanna]

125. The new Mustang isn't the old Mustang.

The new one corners like a dream. I do not own one, but I work in the auto industry and was given a chance to take one out this past summer. Not to put to fine a point on it, but it was just amazing - nothing like the old, clumsy "muscle" handling. Just freaking beautiful, IMHO.

[EOTE]

134. In total agreement....

I'm a big fan of the new Mustang. It's really hard to find another car that has it's balance of power and handling for the same price. The closest Japanese cars I can think of to come near the Mustang in terms of speed and handling are the Acura RSX Type-S and the Subaru WRX. Granted the Subie has AWD and has superior handling in foul weather conditions, but in dry weather has a high tendency to understeer making it nowhere near as fun as the RWD Mustang, plus it's nowhere near as attractive as the 'Stang. The RSX Type-S is a fun car as well, but it's 4-cylinder engine, as high tech as it is, just can't match the thrust of the GT's 300 hp V-8. Even the Mustang's base V6 beats spanks the Type-S in terms of low end torque. I used to own a Lincoln LS, which the current Mustang is based upon, and I can tell you that they are both fantastic handlers. Yes, it's not a 'true sports car', but you can't really buy a true sports car for under 50 grand (Vettes and M3s and such). I do wish that the new Mustang carried the independent rear suspension from the LS over to the new platform, but it gets by very well with it's current axle. Don't get me wrong, I like many cars from all continents, I don't really have favorites (I currently drive a very modified GTI). I think you can get more for your car buck now than in any time in the past. I think domestic cars are the best they've been in a long time, offering tremendous value now that it's been determined that their reliability ratings are besting almost all Europeans (though still not quite up to Japanese standards).

[susanna]

124. When was it that you last drove a Mustang? Just curious. n/t

[Clark2008]

133. Ah fuck... you don't know how to drive.

I just cornerd my 'Stang on a dime.

Shit - you people are BORING.

[beam me up scottie]

149. Pick up your toy and go home if you can't play nice.

Mustangs can't compete with real sports cars.

The truth hurts.

[EOTE]

159. That's true....

And an RSX Type-S or even a Subaru WRX can't compete with 'true sports cars' such as C6 Vettes, M3s, 911s, F360, F430s etc. Mustangs can, however, compete with other similarly priced cars. What other 25k car has similar lap-times? The Acura doesn't come close with it's FWD and 4 banger, not that it's not a great car none-the-less. The WRX comes close, but suffers from pretty bad turbo lag. If you're going to lambaste the Mustang, you should be comparing it to cars of similar price. If you want a Ford that competes with true sports cars, you should be looking at the Ford GT, which embarrasses many higher priced Porsches and Ferraris.

[beam me up scottie]

162. The Ford GT embarrasses Porches and Ferrari's?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

Let me know when you're done fantasizing.

Talk about embarassing...it's like you don't even realize why foreign sports car enthusiasts hold their noses when they're around muscle cars.

[EOTE]

176. Wow, you really don't get it do you?

Here's a Motor Trend article for you (you know, those ignorant rednecks), where you can see how well the 150k Ford GT compares with the 650k Ferrari Enzo and 450k Porsche Carrera. Compared against lesser Porsches and Ferraris (the F360, 911 GT3 and such), yes the GT EMBARASSES them. Once again, offer something substantive.... or throw around more insults, do whatever you like. I think the GT looks much better than either the Porsche or Ferrari and offers 99% of their performance at between 1/3rd and 1/4th their price. Can you tell me one OBJECTIVE performance measure that the Ford GT doesn't best the 911 in? Oh, and if you weren't aware, aesthetics are not objective.

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0410_lemansintro/

[Hypatia82]

204. You may want to check the 0-60 numbers...

the Enzo comes in at 3.4, the Carerra GT at 3.6 and the Ford GT at 3.7. Also it's the slowest in the quarter and barely cracks 200. It also has the longest braking distances, which you know isn't a good thing. And it returns the lowest g on a skidpad, 0.91 g is not something to brag about. And that three tenths it gives up going to 60 is a pretty sizable chunk given the rates of acceleration involved. The braking distance is unforgivable, it has zero to do with final cost, just Ford skimping out. Also the turning performance, well, it's nothing to write home about. A Dodge Viper, which costs less than a Ford GT has better braking numbers and gets 0.98 g on the skidpad. It is a couple tenths slower to 60 and 100. But Dodge can fix that if it chooses. Also you can take the $70,000 you save buying a Viper and hand it over to one of a couple tuners who will turn it into a screaming monster that will pass by the Ford GT. Indeed you can go a touch faster and quicker and still have about $30,000 left over. Blow the whole $70,000 and you'll have an absolute beast.

[EOTE]

179. And furthermore...

Another domestic that embarrasses imports costing two to three times it's price is the new C6 Vette, especially in Z06 form. What can you get in terms of a Porsche for 60 grand? A Boxster S? A nice car, but I'd get tired very soon of getting smoked by cheaper Vettes in both the straightaways AND the twisties. You need to spend more than twice as much more on a 911 twin turbo to approximate the performance of the C6 Z06. And then you need to worry about twin turbos and such gadgetry that make the 911 somewhat less than reliable and EXTREMELY expensive to work on. You do know that domestics have surpassed the Teutons in terms of reliability a few years ago, don't you? The C6 with it's ancient overhead valves is much easier and cheaper to work on, makes absolutely silly amounts of power, yet still weighs less than the powerplant in the 911 Twin Turbo.

[Hypatia82]

201. New 911 Turbos are very reliable...

that's not an issue. The problem with the Ford GT is, well, I live where you can see every sports car there is. I've seen two Ferrari Enzo's, a couple Porsche Carrera GT's and so on, but not one Ford GT. I don't even know anyone who has seen one around here on the streets. Or of a local Ford dealer that has sold one. Oh and overhead cam heads are easier to work on than single cam pushrod heads. Also as for the Z-06, two letters and a number, ZR-1. Biggest mistake Chevy ever made when it canceled that car.

[Greyhound]

198. You're wrong on this one. Selling for about $160,000, the Ford GT

is very competitive performance-wise and a virtual steal @ only $160,000. The best bang for the buck goes to the Chevy Corvette Z06. Handles well at ridiculous speeds (over 200mph), runs the 1/4 in the mid-11's, and costs about $75,000.
Since reliability is not an issue in this class (they all need a good mechanic on 24 hour call), I'd have to say the US is clearly winning this class. The Ford and Chevy deliver all the performance at 25% of the price.

[Hypatia82]

202. There's a couple niche 911's....

the GT3 and GT2 which are basically street legal racing versions of the 911 Carrera and 911 Turbo respectively. And they pretty much hand anything else on the road its lunch. Even the Z-06. The GT2 will even eek it out over a Lamborghini Murcielago on the twisties, though not in top end.

[Greyhound]

219. But with a price tag of over a half mill I'd give the nod to the US. n/t

[Greyhound]

196. I think the class that the Mustang competes in is with the Nissan

350Z and The Honda S2000 (Toyota isn't playing in this market now).

MSRP: $19,115-31,145

-4,009 cc 4 liters V 6 front engine with 100.4 mm bore, 84.4 mm stroke, 9.7 compression ratio, overhead cam and two valves per cylinder
-Unleaded fuel 87
-Fuel economy EPA highway (mpg): 28 and EPA city (mpg): 19
-Multi-point injection fuel system
-16.1 gallon main unleaded fuel tank
-Power: 157 kW , 210 HP SAE @ 5,300 rpm; 240 ft lb , 325 Nm @ 3,500 rpm

-Four disc brakes including four ventilated discs
-Immobilizer
-Spacesaver steel rim internal spare wheel
-Strut front suspension independent with stabilizer bar and coil springs , beam rear suspension rigid with coil springs

Chevy has the 'vette which is beyond this class with a starting MSRP of about $45,000 and like most US cars, that is a pretty spartan setup. Realistic price is above $65,000
Ditto for the Dodge Viper getting a little dated and selling for over $81,000

MSRP: $27,450-40,800

-3,498 cc 3.5 liters V 6 front engine with 95.5 mm bore, 81.4 mm stroke, 10.3 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder VQ35DE
-Premium unleaded fuel 91
-Fuel economy EPA highway (mpg): 26 and EPA city (mpg): 20
-Multi-point injection fuel system
-20.1 gallon main premium unleaded fuel tank
-Power: 224 kW , 300 HP SAE @ 6,400 rpm; 260 ft lb , 353 Nm @ 4,800 rpm

-Four-wheel ABS
-Brake assist system
-Four disc brakes including four ventilated discs
-Electronic brake distribution
-Immobilizer
-Spacesaver steel rim internal spare wheel
-Multi-link front and rear suspension independent with stabilizer bar and coil springs

MSRP: $34,050

-2,157 cc 2.2 liters in-line 4 front engine with 87 mm bore, 90.7 mm stroke, 11.1 compression ratio, double overhead cam, variable valve timing/camshaft and four valves per cylinder
-Premium unleaded fuel 91
-Fuel economy EPA highway (mpg): 25 and EPA city (mpg): 20
-Multi-point injection fuel system
-13.2 gallon main premium unleaded fuel tank
-Power: 179 kW , 240 HP SAE @ 7,800 rpm; 162 ft lb , 220 Nm @ 6,500 rpm

-Four-wheel ABS
-Four disc brakes including two ventilated discs
-Immobilizer
-Rear limited slip differential
-Spacesaver steel rim internal spare wheel
-Wishbone front and rear suspension independent with stabilizer bar and coil springs

[kysrsoze]

188. What, did you drive a V6 Camry?

Try a Nissan Z, an Inifiniti G35, Infiniti M35/M45, Mazda RX-8, Wubaru WRX-STI, Mitsu Evo, Acura NSX, Nissan Skyline GTR, Toyota Supra, etc, etc. You don't know what you're talking about. I like the new Mustang, but it's still sitting on the ol' live rear axle. The Vette is a monster though, but you probably don't like that either since it's not a Ford.

[donheld]

78. Metal box

[MercutioATC]

86. Yeah, those things ARE butt-ugly... (IMO)

Kids seem to like 'em, though...

[arcos]

48. you're saying these cars have no personality?

[FlaGranny]

92. God, they're ugly, buggy, boxy looking things.

My 97 Cavalier is better looking. And you guys with the "my car is better than your car" crack me up. Want to discuss stereo systems next? ;-)

[arcos]

166. Boxy?

Sure, the Honda Element is boxy.... but you could never call the Honda Civic or the Nissan Murano "boxy"

I'm not saying one car is better than the other... but it is very unfair to say all these Japanese cars have "no personality" when they clearly do have lots of it. :P

[FlaGranny]

175. All in the eye of the beholder -

to me they are ugly. Sometimes, when I see one on the road I even comment about how ugly they are. They look like something out of the 1930s gone bonkers Gotham City.

[Clark2008]

137. Are those the same car?

:puke:

[arcos]

165. No, but they are all Japanese...

Nissan, Suzuki, Honda

[okieinpain]

90. surely you jest. not liking a asian vechicle is one thing, but to call

them ugly is another.

[JanMichael]

107. How about Subaru Outbacks?

Ours was made in Tennessee.

[Clark2008]

136. I actually owned a Subaru.

Paid $150 for it. It had a decent engine, but the metal around it was shit.

Couldn't corner for crap, but, hell, I paid $150 bucks for it. I called it my Scooby Doo. Gave it to the Kidney Foundation when my son was born (oh, yeah, still had a Mustang at the time) because it had holes in the fucking floor board.

Probably would have been popular in China where they have to pee out of their floor boards because traffic is so bad.

[alittlelark]

131. My 2004 Totoya Sienna 4wd is a very unique car!

The dog has chewed up the drivers side arm-rest, my daughters best friend spilled cherry icee on the carpet and seat of the 'passenger side'. The last time I did a SF field trip for the school I was given a 'car sick kid'............... SOMEONE should have warned me - damn was it ugly.


Cars are meant to fit the situation they are designed for.


As soon as I can get a safer, smaller car I will..... It's gotta seat at least 6.

[Rosco T.]

5. Define "Japanese Car"...

.. I have a Honda Element... built in Ohio.

[Clark2008]

9. The style

American styled cars have more "oomph." They have something. Japanese-styled cars make me think of childrens toys.

[depakid]

15. Gee, that's funny

I think mustangs look like boxy crap, whereas the Honda 2000, the MR-2, the Miata, and all of the other sporty cars in the japanese fleet look sexy as hell compared with their American counterparts (aside from being more fuel efficient, reliable and able to hold their value.

[Clark2008]

20. And I think the Honda, the MR-2 and the Miata look like CRAP.

So there - like assholes, everyone's got an opinion.

And my Mustang is, again, 12 years old - so it's reliable - gets good gas mileage and I drive 'em til they drop, so I don't worry about resell values. I can't afford a new car every four to five years.

[Bushy Being Born]

81. Your Mustang is nothing but a Ford Escort

And my Honda is built in America by Americans.

[billbuckhead]

104. Mustangs are built in America and share almost no parts with an Escort

Give credit where it is due, the new Mustang is a wildly successful product and it is pretty much all American. Honda was forced to withdraw it's competitor to the Mustang (Prelude) from the US market due to poor sales.

[Clark2008]

138. Hell, even if it was, big deal.

I have a 1985 Escort that's still running. Good car.

[susanna]

128. Uhhh....please provide some semblance of proof that the Mustang...

...was EVER built off the Escort platform. I work in the industry and I'd be absolutely amazed if that was true - considering that the Mustang has always been RWD and the Escort is FWD. The platforms are night and day. Try again.

[B3Nut]

181. Escorts since ~1990 have been Mazda 323-based

and are front-drive. 'Stangs are rear-drive, very different platform. FWIW I have an '00 Escort ZX2, Mazda chassis and gearbox, Ford engine (their newer engines are almost as good as Japanese ones) and the thing was Hecho en Mexico. It's died on me exactly once, the timing belt that I was supposed to replace at 100K snapped at 130K. My own fault for not following the maint. schedule. It still needs its 100K tuneup...and has 155K on it. It also needs brakes.

Todd in Beerbratistan, who let his car maintenance slide a bit too far...

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. Define "good gas mileage"

[Atman]

36. The Pontiac Soltice is beautiful

And stickered at barely $20,000 and has way more personality that it's Japanese counterparts. The problem with this argument is generalities. There are some awesome American cars. There are some boring as hell Japanese cars. And vice versa. Buy/drive what you like.

[knight_of_the_star]

182. Miata's a little kid's toys

Seriously my Hyundai is bigger than those things are, my old '91 civic was bigger, those things look like I can pick them up and put it in my pocket! I wouldn't want to drive those, they look about as safe as the old Geo Metros.

[Hypatia82]

206. The size of a car has little to do with how safe it is...

also Miata's turn very quick and stop fast. Which means you can more easily avoid an accident. And they're fun little drives. Same idea as the old Triumphs, MG's and Fiats, except a Miata always runs and doesn't leak this that or the other.

[Touchdown]

207. The Miata is also a Ford.

....at least 30% of it is owned by Ford. So all Mazdas are, by corporate ownership in effect, Fords.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Fords have more "oomph" ?

Yeah, I'll take a Taurus over a Honda NSX any day...

[Clark2008]

27. Ugly car.

Looks like something they'd drive on Mars.

Sorry. Don't like it. Looks like a piece of tin.

Besides, you're comparing apples and oranges. That's a "sports" (:rofl:) car. The Taurus is a family car.

Here's a SPORTS car (back in the day and current day):

[beam me up scottie]

32. Typical reasoning from a Ford fan...

"The Honda NSX is absolutely orgasmic to drive. The car is powered by a mid-engined 3.2 liter VTEC V6 engine that is pretty tame at low revs but goes crazy past 6000rpm all the way up to a screaming 8500rpm. The NSX originally featured a 3.0 VTEC V6 engine making 265bhp. Then in February 1998, Honda introduced a new 3.2 liter engine with 277bhp, mated to a six-speed manual gearbox. 0-100 takes you 5.7sec."

[Clark2008]

34. I still think it's an ugly car.

Where the fuck am I going to drive 100 mph?

PS. And, let me tell you - if I crashed - I'd rather be in the Mustang. As a matter of fact, my 1992 Mustang took a HUGE hit from the rear by a Mack truck at 45 mph. The passenger compartment stayed perfectly in tact and I suffered only minor injuries from the seat belt. I don't think I'd survive that in that little Honda - at least not as well.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Yawn.

Ever drive one?

[Clark2008]

140. Nope. Couldn't keep up with my slip-clutching.

It would stall, I'm sure.

[beam me up scottie]

150. You're sure?

You mean you don't know?

There's an argument from ignorance.

[EOTE]

147. It should also be noted....

that the Mustang GT at one quarter the price of the NSX takes you to 60 about half a second quicker. Not to say that acceleration is the only measure of a car's performance (my GTI which I've put a total of about 13k into, including the price of the car, does a quarter mile in the high 13s), but once again were talking apples and oranges. I think anyone who can't see that both domestics and imports have their share of great cars now are just refusing to give some cars a chance.

[beam me up scottie]

151. Right.

That's why Europeans import so many American cars.

[EOTE]

155. I didn't mention the Europeans...

Except to note that I own a VW GTI. What I was saying was that there are very good cars being made in Europe, Japan and the U.S.

[beam me up scottie]

157. And what I'm saying is there's no market for muscle cars in countries

whose drivers can tell the difference between a sports car and a Mustang.

[EOTE]

160. Once again...

I don't think most Ford defenders here are calling the Mustang a sports car. It's not. It's a sporty car that is very quick and handles very well. What's cars would you include under the moniker of sports car?

[beam me up scottie]

163. You just said the Ford GT embarrasses Porches and Ferrari's.

And you seriously want to discuss what makes a sports car?

Here's a hint: Nothing that Ford ever made or presently makes is a sports car.

They design their cars for teenagers who don't have a clue and for boomers who want to relive their youth.

Why do you think it's so retro?

[EOTE]

172. Objective measures....

Such as slalom, 0-60, quarter mile time, skidpad performance. Granted, every car has intangibles that make them appeal to every person differently. But according to objective performance measures (IE, ones that you can actually quantify and see on paper), yes the GT embarrasses the bulk of Porsches and Ferraris (save for the Porsche Carrera and the Ferrari Enzo, but these are entirely different beasts altogether). Yes, I seriously want to discuss what makes a sports car as you seem to limit that to make as opposed to anything substantive. Can you tell me what doesn't make the Ford GT a sports car? Is it it's 500+ hp and 500+ lb/ft of torque? Is it it's live rear axle? Is it it's rating of over 1g on the skidpad? Is it the fact that every automotive magazine that has compared the GT to the much more expensive Porsche 911 GT3 and Ferrari F360 Modena Challenge Stradale has found that the GT is posting much more impressive lap times? Or is it the GT's country of origin and maybe something that it's lacking in it's interior? :eyes: Do you have anything substantive to add to the debate, or are you just going to criticize Ford for being retro? Oh, when was the last time that Porsche made a 911 that wasn't retro, or when did Ferrari last make a Ferrari that wasn't retro, save for the Enzo? It's called heritage and I don't really find anything wrong with it.

[Hypatia82]

205. And yet the lowly Viper...

which is cheaper, is only a touch slower. And if you get a tuned Viper, like by Henessey Motorsports, for the price of a Ford GT you can have a car that will eat it for lunch. Oh and a stock Viper stops quicker and gets more g's on a skidpad. And the new Ferrari F430 gets better braking numbers, skidpad numbers and acceleration? Depending on which test you look at, almost the same as a Ford GT. Nevermind it has the way sweeter engine and the really nice transmission.

[EOTE]

214. You can say that about most cars....

Invest a good amount in aftermarket parts and you'll get a better performing car than what you'd get in a stock vehicle for the same total price. Although it's hard to compensate for the Viper's bloated weight and poor weight distribution. Take a look at track times, the true measure of a car's performance, the GT bests the F430. They're both unbelievable vehicles. What I'm trying to state is, don't count out the domestics. Remember the GT40 and Lemans?

[EOTE]

174. Oh and also....

The GT40 and the GT90, are those not sports cars as well? Although not entirely a ford, is the 427 A/C Shelby Cobra not a sports car as well? Once again, I ask you, what makes a sports car? I await your next insult.

[MercutioATC]

38. Have you LOOKED at your 1993 Mustang???

Not what I'd call a sporty American muscle car...


(yes, the lines on the 2005 are MUCH nicer)

[beam me up scottie]

39. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

Perfect for aging boomers and pregnant women whose bellies won't allow them to fit in real sports cars.
:rofl:

[Clark2008]

148. Obviously, you've never seen me.

I'd kick your ass.

Ask my fiance - who, btw, is younger than me.

[beam me up scottie]

152. You'd "kick my ass"? ROFLMFAO!!! What a he-man.

Spoken like someone with a lap pinkie and a Mustang to try to compensate!:rofl:

[Atman]

40. 1993 Mustang is a Ford Escort

Same platform. Biggest mistake Ford ever made.

[William Bloode]

87. Bullshit.

Impossible that they are the same platform. Escort is a front wheel drive, Mustang rear wheel, so the entire dynamics of design are different. Those model Mustangs shared their platform with the Fairmont i do believe, if you insist on comparing it with a low end car.

[MercutioATC]

132. A FAIRMONT?!?!?

I'd rather have an Escort platform.

My second car was a 1981 Fairmont (my parents'). The absolute top speed on a flat road was 86mph. I have the ticket to prove it. The car was an absolute pig...powertrain, suspension, fit and finish....just horrid.

[beam me up scottie]

161. These cars all used the same Fox platform:

Ford Fairmont, Mercury Zephyr, Ford Mustang, Mercury Capri, Ford Thunderbird, Mercury Cougar, Ford Granada, Lincoln Continental, Ford LTD, Mercury Marquis and Lincoln Mark VII.

[Clark2008]

145. I have a 1995 - 12 years with the fall differential.

My car doesn't look like that.

Mine's a 5-speed.

Hell, my 1992 didn't look like that. It was a hatch-back. That one's not.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Mustangs are Escorts with lipstick.

Butt ugly lipstick at that.

[EOTE]

142. Not really a fair comparison....

Comparing what is now a 6 figure sports car with a now defunct 20+ grand family sedan. A more appropriate comparison would be to compare the Acura NSX with the somewhat more expensive Ford GT, in which case the GT trounces the NSX in nearly every objective measure. Yes, the NSX is an awesome ride and provides Honda reliability, but you pay for it. If you were going to compare Ford/Honda in terms of sporty sedans, the new Ford Fusion vs. the new Honda Accord is a better contest in which case I think they're very comparable. I really think many people are really not paying attention to the good cars America is putting out now. Have you driven a Ford (GM or Mopar) lately?

[Hypatia82]

193. Well Mustangs do have...

a solid rear axle, something no one else has bothered with in a couple decades except for on trucks. Ford says it's to keep costs down. Yeah, sure it is. Even the cheapest Kia has independent rear suspension.

[NashVegas]

52. You're Fucking With Us. Yes?

The average Detroit automobile handles like you're driving through sludge compared to the average Japanese design.

[JanMichael]

108. The Outback is no toy.

But you're entitled to your opinion.

And yes ours was produced in Tennessee.

[Clark2008]

146. Good! But the profits went overseas. Thanks!

[kysrsoze]

189. Yeah,the profits went overseas, but what's to stop you from investing

in any foreign company? I have so little faith in the US economy that all my money is in international funds. BTW - what good will GM and Ford profits do for the average US citizens when the cars are all produced in Mexico and India?

[Hypatia82]

191. Given that almost all Subarus...

sold in the US are made in the US a lot of the profit stays right here. Used for capital improvements, budgeted for equipment repairs and so on.

[LSK]

6. well if eveyone held to that in the 80s, maybe there would be hope

But now its too late. Everything is built everywhere.

My next car might be German. But thats in a long long time.

[billbuckhead]

7. Don't count the Germans out

They're turning Chrysler into a worldwide player. BMW is arguably the world's most successful automaker and the MINI has the best reasle value. VW is poised to make a huge comeback. Porsche and Mercedes are still the most aspirational vehicles.

[LSK]

33. i say long time because I dont plan on buying a car for several years

I'll just keep fixing the paid off junk that I drive now.

[yourout]

99. Just got a Jetta TDI.......I love it.

VWs have a big presence here in Wisconsin.

[LWolf]

11. My 'yotas have plenty of personality.

They both have names. The senior vehicle has 250,000 miles without a breakdown. Regular oil changes, new belts, hoses and brakes every 100,000 miles, and one new battery. Old reliable.

The newer vehicle has done about 15,000. Negotiating deep snow, hauling 1/2 ton loads of hay in a 4 cyl, maneuvering roads with hard frozen snowpacks and ice slicks every day to and from work, nary a glitch. I've also used the elder like a tractor, dragging various implements for various purposes behind me over the pastures, taking down fence posts, dragging whole portable buildings from one place to another, etc. It's an efficient little 4 cyl, too.

What is the same about them is their efficiency. Good gas mileage, low maintenance cost, non-existent time in the shop, and always, always, always gets us home.

Both built right here in the U.S, in Fremont, CA. I'm not sure that's true of their predecessor, the '77. It did 370,000 miles or so before my youngest son ran it into a mountain and bent the frame; that was about 8 years ago, and the engine is now running equipment at a family member's shop.

[screembloodymurder]

12. You will be buying an inferior product,

but you should be able to get a great discount.

[Clark2008]

17. That's your opinion.

My current Mustang is 12 years old - or did you miss that? - and has only been in the shop once.

Some "inferior" product.

:eyes:

And the point, here, is that I don't like the STYLE of Japanese cars. I grew up with big muscle cars and I think that, for a car to LOOK good, it has to have the ever-so-slightest bit of "redneck muscle" to it. Japanese cars don't have that - but the new Mustangs sure do.

[screembloodymurder]

74. 12 years ago Ford was a good company and produced a competitive product.

Go out and compare vehicle quality today. I was shocked at the difference. I have owned Fords all my life (67 Mustang and a number of trucks) and I was looking at Ford, I like the design, but I just can't justify the difference. The Ford interior is a piece of crap compared to the Toyota and Honda.

[MercutioATC]

135. I'd disagree...

In 1989 (o.k., a little more than 12 years ago) I bought a new Toyota Celica. A neighbor who worked at Ford and had just bought a new Ford minivan was pissed (the whole "Why would you send your money to another country?" thing).

I parked next to him and the fit and finish was no comparison to the Celica. Most of his body seams varied bt at least 1/8 inch over a 3-foot run. Mine were dead on over the entire car. I drove the Celica to 100k. I parked it for 3 years, put $200 into it, and it ran another 50k miles. A friend's nephew bought it and ran it ANOTHER 50k miles. I've lost track of it, but I trust it's been put out to pasture by now.

By comparison, my parents bought a new 1991 Escort wagon. The block cracked at 60k.

[maveric]

35. Just bought an 06 Mustang GT. Its a fabulous car.

I never saw the appeal in Japanese cars. Just dont like the way they look or the engine power.
Give me an americam muscle car anyday.

Oh: I should also say that there arent many american cars I like either. Always been a Mustang, Camaro, Trans Am and GTO guy. Of the vehicles on that list the only one thats worth its weight nowadays is the Mustang.

Here's my Baby!

[beam me up scottie]

47. Test drove one~had to slow down to take sharp corners.

The max 300 bhp is only useful on a straightaway.

[maveric]

54. If your going fast enough you always have to slow down on corners.

What are you saying?

[beam me up scottie]

57. I'm saying that the new Mustang corners like the old Mustang.

It feels like it's going to flip if you try to go around the block too fast.

Mustangs are great for drag racing maybe, but they're not even close to competing with Japanese or German sports cars.

[maveric]

83. Mine doesnt. Have you driven one?

[Clark2008]

144. Then you don't know how to drive.

I corner my Stanger all the fucking time - on a DIME - and mine's 12 years old!

Damn, learn to fucking DRIVE.

[beam me up scottie]

153. I've driven real sports cars, your POS doesn't qualify.

Stick to redneck forums, you'll find more Ford lovers in them.

[jmowreader]

101. Hmm...

You're a Mustang, GM F-body and Goat fan.

Lessee...GM hasn't made F-bodies in years and the current Goat comes from Australia.

And I can't stand the freakin' Mustang for one reason: if I want an old car, I'll buy an old car and fix it up, not buy a new car that just looks kinda like an old car. And that's the entire point of the Mustang design--to look like an old Mustang.

If I was gonna buy a new car today, and wanted to keep it under $30,000? Acura RSX-S.

[Clark2008]

141. Beautiful!

My baby is gonna buy me that baby! :)

[Hypatia82]

208. And to think...

it has a live rear axle, how utterly quaint. They redesigned the car, but couldn't bother with independent rear suspension. That speaks volumes.

[EOTE]

213. They stuck with the live rear axle...

Because of cost restraints. If you test drive one, you'll find it suits the car quite well. I owned a Lincoln LS, same platform, but with the IRS and I found while it helped with extreme cornering, it also made the car very jumpy on uneven roads. I'll state once again, if you're going to be knocking the Mustang, you should atleast be comparing it to cars in it's class. Most sporty cars around 25k are either FWD or have similar live rear axles (see Camaros passim). If you want a more advanced RWD setup, you're going to need to look at the G35, 350Z or the new IS300, but you will pay considerably more for them. There are more advanced RWD domestic cars such as the new Chrysler 300, the new GTO and the Cadillac CTS and STS which are very competitively priced and very fun to drive.

[Hypatia82]

216. Cost restraints? Cost restraints?....

any Kia has an independent rear suspension. A dirt cheap Hyundai has it. The cost restraints excuse Ford offers would be laughable if it wasn't such pathetic bull.

[mitchtv]

46. I love my Tbird(97) Not bad on gas

sooooo comfortable. My 82 AMC Scrambler is a real truck too. We checked out the toyotas too.We were happy with our commutes '90 honda civic wagon and 77 toyota celica too, but as we got older and no commute necessary we opted for comfort and ease in getting in and out. I am hoping for a Chevy SSR next one

[RebelOne]

60. I would never buy a Japanese car and I try not to buy

Japanese products. I have boycotted them for years. The Japanese are the worst environmentalists in the world. They hunt and kill and minke whales for "research." Bullshit!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

66. What a crock of shit. Americans are far worse environmentalists.

Kyoto ring any bells?

Read a newspaper sometime.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. I have driven nothing but Japanese cars for over a decade now

They are AWESOME. I am currently driving a 2006 Scion that gets 31 mpg. It is a wonderful car.

Every GM car I have owned has been a piece of crap compared to my Hondas and Toyotas. I haven't owned a Ford since I had a Pinto in the 80s. I got rid of it when they started catching on fire.

[Cronus Protagonist]

117. I drive a new Mustang ,,,, VRRRRROOOOOM!

The new Mustang is an awesome car. Makes the foreign cars weep when I vroom by them on the freeway. :)

To everyone here, please buy American. It's the only way we can get out of this hole Bush sunk us in. It's simply bad for America to promote sending our money overseas. Keep it here and pay good old American workers a decent living wage, that's what I say.



Educate a Freeper Today!
Buttons, Stickers and Fridge Magnets made in America for brainy people
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[MercutioATC]

139. You'd beat the hell out of my car in a drag race. Wanna run some twisties?

I'd bet I'd give you a run for your money...even with a 23-year-old Porsche. The Mustang has the horsepower, but I'll take real sports car handling over power any day.

[beam me up scottie]

156. It's a teenager's muscle car and I refuse to buy a piece of crap because

people like you claim that we'll "save" America by doing so.

[maveric]

195. You have an 06 GT?

Me too and its the best car I've ever driven. Love mine!

[Booster]

126. And I have only had Japanese cars since 1983 when I bought

a Ford and hated it so much I only kept it 2 years. The Japanese have it over the U.S. in the service dept mainly, but their cars are also fabulous. Give me an Acura over a Ford any day.

[ohio_liberal]

210. I had an 87 Mustang GT

It was a beauty. I'm sorry I ever sold it.

[TheGunslinger]

10. I was a Chrysler guy for 20 years. No more. I love my Mazda!

My mom has owned Toyotas for the last 10 years and only trades them in because she likes a new car ever so often.


Now, my ex-wife? She has a Ford Taurus. Tons of problems and sucks gas at about 16-18mpg clip (city). Pathetic.

[screembloodymurder]

71. The new RAV 4 - V6 has

69 more hp than the Ford Escape V6 and gets 3mpg better gas mileage.

[David Zephyr]

14. We only buy Toyotas.

Plunking down the cash it takes to buy a vehicle today makes me only buy what I know will not become a "problem". Toyota is that manufacturer.

[ny_liberal]

18. that's why thousands lose their well paying union jobs :(

if everyone was like you, we'd all be flipping hamburgers

[Clark2008]

22. Thank you. n/t

[David Zephyr]

62. See Above.

[MercutioATC]

25. Untrue, actually....

Honda and Toyota may not have unionized U.S. plants, but the wages and benefits are on par with union employees'.

Want to complain about a company hurting American workers? Try Ford and GM. They've been increasingly outsourcing for over a decade.

[David Zephyr]

63. True.

And Toyota has the hybrid technology, too that Ford and GM both should have.

[TheGunslinger]

26. Camrys and Avalons are made in Kentucky

Toyota trucks are made in Vincennes, IN.

[ny_liberal]

68. but profits and R&D money goes back to Japan

nt

[MercutioATC]

73. ...and the Japanese use that money to build more factories...

...some of them in the U.S.

What do U.S. automakers do with their profits? Apparently, they piss them away. They're closing plants, laying off workers, and shipping the jobs overseas.

[screembloodymurder]

75. Good point!

What has GM been doing? Their engineering and design is atrocious.

[MercutioATC]

76. They've been buying OTHER companies to run into the ground...

...like Saab and Hummer.

[Rosco T.]

100. .. and salaries go to Americans. n/m

[TheGunslinger]

114. Toyota setup a N.A. HQ in northern KY.

Also, there was that huge R&D facility in California...forget the name of it. I guess it's still there.

[Hypatia82]

192. Toyota has a major R&D center in the US...

also a major racing R&D operation in the US. Plus TRD, Toyota Racing Development, their official racing wing, and seperate from pure R&D, has major operations in the US.

[Greyhound]

30. Yet another RW lie that you've bought. Japanese manufacturers pay their

workers better, give them better benefits, and way more time off. They make better cars sell them cheaper and still turn a profit. Sounds like a management problem to me.

[David Zephyr]

64. Yep.

Thanks for your informed sanity here.

[Lefty48197]

67. Right wing lie?

You mean my union buddies in Detroit are all a bunch of right wingers? War is peace...

[screembloodymurder]

77. Your union buddies can build good cars

when given the right tools and an up to date product.

[Greyhound]

120. It is one of the repuke lies that caught on in the 80's and people

of all political stripes buy it. is still .

[beam me up scottie]

49. No, they lose their jobs because they make an inferior product.

Nice right wing talking point, though.

[Greyhound]

121. I'd like to point out that it isn't the auto workers fault that they build

an inferior product. It is the hereditary management system that has dominated the domestic industry.

[David Zephyr]

61. I am not obligated to purchase crappy and dangerous vehicles.

That's not why "thousands" have lost their jobs either.

I'm glad you felt it necessary to attack me and I hope you feel better now (I really do), but unfortunately, you are wrong.

Japan has equivilant wages with the United States.

Toyota employs "thousands" of Americans.

Maybe, you are confusing Japan with the PRC where labor can be as low as 23 cents per hour.

Finally, why should my family fork out over $100,000 for vehicles that will not last and pose a hazzard to their lives?

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Those union companies need to worry more about a quality product

than high wages.

[driver8]

178. Give me a fucking break. What, I should buy a piece of shit

American car so GM can keep handing out freakin' bonuses to their top execs while they fuck the union workers? The union jobs are not going away because people are buying Japanese cars. The union jobs are going away due to the lack of management in that company.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time regarding Hybrids and GM chose to ignore it. They kept producing one gigantic SUV after another. Toyota and Honda saw what people wanted and did something about it.

I am a union worker and I feel bad for auto workers that lose their jobs, but don't try to blame it on people who buy Japanese cars. You cannot fault people for wanting value for their money. I wouldn't drive a GM or Ford if you gave me one.

[TK421]

184. Some of these posts are really pissing me off, since I've owned two

American cars and two foreign ones. The first car was a 1988 Nissan Stanza, absolutely trouble free for 189,000 miles (until it was totalled in an accident..not Nissans fault,but the fault of the other person talking on their cell phone). After that, I picked up a 1991 Ford Tempo (a.k.a-coffin on wheels) This piece of shit lasted for about 200 miles and was constantly in the frigging shop for something stupid. I decided that I wouldn't touch another Ford EVER. But,silly me...I had to get my hands on something fast,so I bought ANOTHER American car, a Buick Century...that one had a bad radiator (among other things) and the engine block cracked. What am I driving now? a 1988 Toyota Camry with 194,000 miles. This car has NEVER let me down,NEVER left me stranded anywhere, and I take good care of it. So when someone puts me down for wanting a Toyota, well....too fucking bad! I like the money in my pocket rather than the mechanic's. Sorry for the long post

[EOTE]

185. So what?

My dad owned a Toyota Tercel which was a consistent money pit. We got almost nothing for the trade in at 110K when I helped him pick him pick out a Chevy Malibu in 1998. It's been extremely reliable for 100K miles, he's put no money into it accept for brake work and normal maintenance. Every make has it's lemons. Yeah, the Tempo was a POS, so were a lot of Paseos and Tercels.

[TK421]

190. Good for the Malibu, but my response was meant for people who whine

about those of us who buy a product we feel will be reliable simply because we had prior experience with it. You like your Malibu, I hated my old Ford..oh,well. I find it interesting, though that you brought up the Tercel. I know people who had those and weren't happy with them, but there is a good reason why the Camry (the car I drive) is a top seller. I guess you saw the word Camry and thought I meant Tercel

[EOTE]

212. I brought up the Tercel...

Because you were comparing American cars to Japanese ones. What I was saying is that each make has their lemons and their well designed models. I know the Camry is a well designed car, as are the past two generations of Malibu. You made a denigrating comment regarding American cars, I was stating that you were painting with a broad brush. I'm very aware that they're two different beasts altogether.

[Nimrod2005]

21. Coulda told you that about 8 years ago

[JackintheGreen]

29. C'mon now

DeLoreans are pretty good. And how 'bout those Tuckers? They're the bomb!

[LeftyMom]

31. If I were buying new I'd probably agree

(I really want a Toyota Sienna) but I'm still crazy about my Saturn and they're dirt cheap used even though they last nearly forever.

[Octafish]

37. Too bad for the American worker.

For all his NAZI faults, Henry Ford (and the UAW) did more than most anybody in creating the American middle class. By paying his workers $5 a day, they could buy the products they built; pay a mortgage on a home; send a kid to college; and save for retirement. And that was in 1927.

Today, without manufacturing jobs, the nation's workers will have to do all that working at Burger King. Don't expect NAFTA to help.

[DancingBear]

45. Present day "American" car designers have very little imagination

Mustang? - Make it look like it did in the 60's

Thunderbird? - Make it look like it did in the 60's (well, that didn't work..)

PT Cruiser - Find a Woody and copy it

Has the Corvette body style changed at all since 1980?

We won't even BEGIN to talk about "regular" GM - those guys must design in the dark. Or in a nursing home.

Also, is it some kind of law that all U.S. automakers must use chintzy plastic and goofy brushed chrome in all their interiors? The ergonomic guys DEFINITELY work in the dark.


DancingBear, Audi driver and former proud owner of a '67 small-block 327/350 Vette that drove like butter...

[texanshatingbush]

51. Reminds me of the John Stewart segment

on the state of the US automotive industry. " While the Japanese auto engineers have have been developing Hybrid and alternative fuel powered cars the US auto engineers developed the TV screen in back of the front seat." Very funny at the time but sadly true.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Hey DB!!

:hi:

The last new GM car I bought had less than 500 miles on it when I adjusted the air vents for the a/c one day and they literally crumbled and fell into the cooling system. They had to replace the whole system. Then at 30K miles, the stereo went out. And a short time later, the electric windows started going out - one at a time. They cost $350 EACH to replace.

I will NEVER buy another GM car. NEVER.

[DancingBear]

102. Hiya p2!

There are reasons that American automakers score at or near the bottom in almost every quality survey.

They deserve to.

Almost any car on the market, if assembled even remotely correctly, should be expected to last well over 100,000 miles. Japanese/German automakers seem to be able to accomplish this at a level of quality miles beyond what the U.S. automakers feel is appropriate.

i defy anyone to look at an entry level (15-17K) Civic vs. an entry level Dodge, or Ford, or GM and tell me the trim levels, interior components, tolerances, finish, etc. aren't noticeably better on the Civic.

:hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. Hell my $14K Scion has nicer trim

than any American car.

I had it detailed today as a Xmas present to myself. It looks brand new again :)

[solinvictus]

118. Exactly!!!

I have an xA and it's a beauty. For $16K, it has keyless entry, an iPod and satellite ready Pioneer stereo system, and all the extras that most stock GM cars simply don't offer without considerable markup. Plus, it's a Toyota, so I can give it to my daughter to go to university with no worries about reliability.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. I have an xA too

I bought it two months ago. I love it. I got my kids iPods for Xmas and can't wait to plug one of them into my car.

And I never have to pay for maintenance, not even oil changes. :bounce:

[Hypatia82]

200. It's not the designers...

it's the enviornment they work in. They get hamstrung with constant reviews, focus groups, bean counting and so on. There's tons of good designs sitting around at GM and Ford, but for a myriad of reasons they never get even close to production. It would also help if they had a few designers that whatever they put to paper was it and that was that and it goes to production. No eternal tweeking, copying in other designs, having a ton of reviews and so on. Have some nerve for once.

[GoneOffShore]

50. My dad had stock in GM

since the 1930's. He bought 10 shares and held it. When he died he left it to my brother and me and we split it.
My brother, the highly paid computer engineer, who manages his own 401K, held onto the GM stock. On the advice of my financial guy, I sold mine in 2000.
My brother calls me a couple of weeks ago, moaning about how GM is tanking. I was happy to tell him that I'd gotten rid of mine.

Oh, but I do have a GM car - a Saab.

[benEzra]

53. Ford OWNS Volvo...

Why can't Ford make a small car as good as the S40 T5?



:loveya:

(Currently driving an '87 Camry with 232,000 miles on it...still going strong...)

[EOTE]

154. Well, they do have the Ford Focus...

Granted, it doesn't have the T5's turbo-charged 5 cylinder, but the 2.3 in the Focus ST makes decent power, gets much better fuel economy and has lower emissions than the T5. The Focus ST also doesn't have as nice of an interior as the Volvo, but they're built on the same platform, and the Focus ST is around 13 grand less than the S40 T5. Also, while not quite a small car, the new Ford Fusion (platform mate of the Mazda 6) has a fantastic looking interior and appears to be very competitively priced.

[benEzra]

199. The Focus is way downmarket, in line with Ford's philosophy

that small, fun-to-drive cars are for teenagers and people who can't afford SUV's. (GM does this too...Pontiac Sunfire, Chevrolet Cobalt, Saturn Ion...)

The Focus is a good car for the money, but you can't buy a really nice Focus. If you want a nice car, Ford wants to put you in a BIGGER car, that doesn't accelerate or handle as well and gets worse mileage.

I like the Fusion OK, it's just bigger than I want. And, if you want decent acceleration you are stuck with an automatic transmission (the T5 gives you the choice of a manual), and the Ford V6 is heavier and less efficient than the turbo 4. And it's still not much of an enthusiast's car, though the handling is reported to be pretty good. A coworker of mine drives a Mazda 6 (nice car, same platform), but I like the size of the 3/S40/Focus better.

[NV Whino]

56. For all you Mustang people talking about decent miliage...

My '98 Celica gets 30-35 mpg. My '77 Toyota truck got 25-30 mpg. My 89 Honda Prelude got 35-40 mpg.

I'm lucky if my piece of shit Ford Ranger gets 21 mpg. Worst designed vehicle I have ever driven.

All vehicles mentioned are 4 cylinder, 5 speed.

[Blue_Tires]

59. RAV 4???

Take a ride in a new Corvette then get back at us:evilgrin: :bounce:

[screembloodymurder]

79. I couldn't get behind the wheel.

But let's compare apples to apples.

[Greyhound]

127. Apples 2 Apples

Chevy Tracker
Toyota RAV4
Girlfriend owns a Tracker, piece of crap, no power, no handling, noisy. It is 3 years old, no major problems, quite a few small ones.
I had a RAV 4 company car for 4 months I didn't like it, but it was quite a bit peppier than the Tracker is.

[EOTE]

158. Funny you should mention that....

The Chevy Tracker is actually a rebadged Suzuki Sidekick. So, yes, the Japanese do have it over the Koreans when it comes to compact utes.

[Lefty48197]

65. My Ford truck can kick your Toyota's ass.

.

[screembloodymurder]

82. Not any more.

You haven't looked. Toyota has made incredible progress. They're faster, more fuel efficient, better quality and cost about the same. The new RAV 4 V6 will kick your V8 truck's ass from 0 to sixty.

[LWolf]

85. Depends.

Having owned and driven both ford and toyota trucks, I'll say this:

A full sized (not 1/2 ton) ford could haul my horses and more hay. Sometimes that would be nice. On an everyday basis, though, I've had 3 4cyl toyotas, and all 3 kick/ed any ford's ass on these daily points:

gas mileage
reliability
maintenance cost and time spent in a shop under repair

My little 4 cyl trucks have hauled full loads of large rock, topsoil, and a 1/2 ton of hay, fencing...the list goes on. They've drug tractor implements around the place, pulled old fence and buildings down, moved buildings, and, most recently dragged 12 ft high 4 /x 4 posts buried 2 ft deep out of the middle of the stalls in the barn. Never slipped on the ice, never stuck in the snow or mud, never once on the side of the road for any reason, and they've done it a damned site cheaper than any ford I've been in.

For the record, my first ford truck was the truck I learned to drive in when I was 15; a '65, a 3-speed on the column. Since then, I've been through 2 cougars, 2 pintos, god help me, a '69 and a '70 3/4 ton full sized pu, and 2 other 80s vintage ford pu's, before I married my 'yotas. These days, I listen to and try to commiserate with the ford drivers; being a rural ranch area, there are plenty of full size fords to be found, and they take up lots of conversation about how to keep them on the road.

[Lefty48197]

89. I don't know how you've had such bad luck with Ford trucks

I've owned about six in the last 15 years or so. In one, I had to replace the computer (or whatever the hell it's called. Cost about $150), because it was causing the truck to run rough. On another truck, the wheel bearings went out on one side. Two days down out of about 15 years. Nobody will ever convince me that Ford trucks are anything less than EXTREMELY reliable. I've witnesses it myself.
Ford trucks (and Chevy's too) are just getting broken in at 100,000 miles these days. If you don't get 200,000 out of a new US made truck these days, then it's an abberation.

[screembloodymurder]

109. Got to admit. I loved my Ford trucks

and they never let me down. Ford seems to put more engineering into their F150 than any of their cars. The interior is nicer than most of their sedans. I'd buy another F150.

[Solon]

94. Funny story...

OK, my Uncle had a Ford truck, an early 80s model, forget the exact model, but it was a good sized truck. Anyways, my cousin bought a Toyota Celica, a small assed sports car, five speed. Anyways, I talked to my Cousin at Thanksgiving this year(he no longer has the car, his younger brother totalled it). I was talking about my Celica, and I was amazed at the power it squeaks out of a four banger, mine is an 89 Convertable. What he told me totally suprised me, they towed the damned truck with the Celica once, UPHILL, back to the house. That surprised the fuck out of me, you don't know the hill I'm talking about, its like almost 30 degree incline. How that little car can tow the POS truck is amazing to me.

Also, one of my friends had an S10(junked after 3 years or so), a 1995 model, give or take. Anyways, we compared my car to his S10 once, not only does my car have more horsepower, but more torque as well. I would smoke him in racing down Gravois Rd around here. I also smoked Mustangs all the time, particularly the mid 90s to early 2000s models. Don't know why people in cars with larger bodies, but smaller engines think they can win a race against me, with my five speed and them with an automatic transmission, but they do. Idiots.

[fishnfla]

70. I heard a GM worker state Toyota's product was better on NPR

Better quality, better price and better warranty. Almost drove my Chevy off the road.
Maybe he was pissed because he was getting laid off

[Triana]

80. I almost bought one of those

Ended up with a different Toyota. Maybe next time, though I like the Echo and Prius these days.

[Lefty48197]

88. The quality surveys seem to disagree with you...

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/money/20050630/b_power_lists30.art.htm

American made vehicles received the highest quality ratings from their owners in 12 out of 19 categories of vehicles.

[sakabatou]

96. Do you think this will affect the Japanese economy from it's slump?

It's been that way for years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Did you see Michael Moore's latest speech on CSPAN?

He wondered if the US automakers had ever bothered to even drive a Honda or Toyota around the block to see why so many people were buying them. LOL

[solinvictus]

103. Toyota..

Hell, Toyota is at least as American as GM. Many GM components are made in Mexico. I bought a car in October and it never, EVER occurred to me to shop American because of quality. I bought a Scion xA and never looked back. There was no American car that could match the reliability and standard features of this Toyota.

[Bombero1956]

105. Ford Mustang GT for me

I drive what I like. What is boils down to is everybody has their choice of what to drive. It's a personal choice and everybody can come up with any number of reasons to justify that choice. My wife drives an Xb I drive a Mustang, who's the better person her because she gets better gas mileage or me because I have more horsepower. I say it's neither because her car was her choice (not mine) and my car was my choice(not hers). Will she ever convince me to buy a Toyota,Honda or Nissan, nope I love Fords and have ever since my Dad bought a red 65 Galaxie. I like that I drive an American icon.

[solinvictus]

116. However..

I do love the new Mustang. It's a beauty reminescent of the old Fastback. Ford will survive, but GM, not a chance.

[screembloodymurder]

106. Nice car.

Saw one at the mall. Sweet.

[IDemo]

112. Hybrids are fine, but a good battery-electric vehicle would be better

I have had three Mustangs and loved them all. That said, I bought my present Toyota 4x4 pickup new in 1993, and until a solid battery-electric vehicle is marketed by anyone, it will be my last vehicle purchase. Hell, it only has 38k miles and should last for another century at that rate. The bicycle has become my primary commute method.

The first major auto manufacturer to introduce a small reliable electric vehicle will run away with the market. Oil is inching back up, gasoline and diesel will follow along.

[MercutioATC]

143. That electricity has to be produced for you to put it into your battery...

...and power generation is a pretty environmentally unfriendly business.

I'm not picking on electrics, just pointing out that, when you look at the big picture, they're NOT "zero emmission vehicles".

[IDemo]

180. I don't recall saying electricity is 'zero emissions'

Of course it isn't, but the pollution generated at the powerplant to fuel one electric vehicle on a day-to-day basis is orders of magnitude lower than the pollution produced by any similar gas or diesel powered vehicle. Plus, when vehicle-to-grid technology is perfected, you can give back to the grid during times you don't need energy.

[madrchsod]

113. no the japanese are not the winners-we are

it`s the american workers that are the winners. back in the 80`s when we were the fault for the decline of american products because we were supposed to be lazy ass over paid workers who put out shit products. ya we were blamed for the big boys management failures. then the foreigners came in and gave us jobs to build cars that the big boys did`t want to... it was the american workers who kicked their asses..we made a good product that people wanted because we worked with a management that had values-a commitment to quality and a commitment to the workers. there`s been some ruff patches but the japanese commitment to the american worker remains as strong as ever.
it`s up to gm and ford to do the same

oh yes- i own a 1997 dodge intrepid with 240,000 miles and it just keeps rolling along at 25+ miles per gallon.

[screembloodymurder]

169. You're right.

GM and Ford took our money and invested overseas. Now they have their cheap labor and the still can't compete. They should have been patriots and invested in the US and the American worker. I say the next time a US company renigs on a pension plan, we all walk off the job. These traitors are 'fixin to run oft'.

[handsignals4theblind]

123. everbody knows the consumer dances to a different beat as the Producer

as if anyone will read this--------but America is such a service oriented economy--and the pentagon corporate welfare clients don't make anything that people want to buy- innovation- means less on the military industrial complex>

[AntiFascist]

164. What were Ford and GM thinking....

that the price of gas would go down after we invaded Iraq?

:rofl:

[rfkrfk]

168. do you deliver pixxa for a living? do you have a bad back?

Toyota,,, ugly, boxy, mostly 4-door, mostly 4 cylinder,
ugly, front wheel drive

I find the RAV4 to be especially loathsome.
except for the 'high off the ground seating, that
allows {I assume} easy in-out,
who would buy such a thing.

[screembloodymurder]

170. Quality has it's compensations.

Beauty is only skin deep.

[rfkrfk]

171. what attracts people to high profile {tall} vehicles?

I have to guess, I don't care for them.

My guess is, easy in-out,
as people can be 'sorta sitting', with their feet
on the ground, as opposed to
'falling down' into a vehicle, that is not as tall

keep in mind that a tall vehicle will never,
at handling limits, steer as good as a car,
you only 'think' it is a car, which can be dangerous.

good luck with your decision, enjoy

[TK421]

194. What the hell is pixxa?

[shrike]

177. Best car I ever owned was -- a Pontiac Sunbird SE

I kid you not. A convertible. Cutest thing you ever saw, yellow with a black top. I used to have people stop me to tell me how much they loved my car. The alternator went (at 100,000), the radiator went (at 150,000), and the water pump went (at 200,000). Everything else was regular maintenance. Sold it to a little college girl (at 220,000) and she's still driving it. Ran into her once and she told me her girlfriends love it. At least she's taking care of it. Makes me want to cry -- never should have sold the thing. Family convinced me I should get a new (and more reliable) car. Bought an Olds and have regretted it ever since. What a hunk of junk.

[solinvictus]

186. Oldsmobile..

My understanding is that GM used Olds as a clearing-house for surplus parts for other product lines and engineered their cars around existing stock rather than new designs.

[shrike]

211. So that explains it

Sure is a disappointment.

[mitchtv]

197. Rav 4 rides like a buckboard

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

203. They're dying a messy and long overdue death.

[Selatius]

209. I like Toyotas and Nissans and Hondas for one thing...

fuel efficiency. I'm not buying cars for the hedonistic value of them. I need something that is dependable and can get me from point A to point B. These Japanese car makers made a car that can easily get 30 to 35 mpg the mainstay of their product line-up, yet American car makers decide to make gas-guzzling SUVs the stable of their product line-up in the 1990s, and guess who won? It's almost the same mistake they made that allowed Japanese automakers to enter big into the US market in the 1980s. You had the oil shock, and guess who was in a position to win? The Japanese automakers. The leadership of these car makers knew what they were doing. I don't know if that can be said of our greed-soaked CEOs.

If you want to point the finger at anybody here, you probably shouldn't be pointing it at foreigners or American workers. You should be pointing the finger at Mr. CEO, the man who made the decisions as well as the shareholders who voted him in. They put greed first instead of sensibility first.

[Penndems]

215. I ain't buyin' it, friend

I remember back in 1980 when folks was writing Chrysler off and, lo and behold, it came roaring back from the dead. If you've ever read Lee Iacocca's autobiography, he said that the Carter Administration's willingness (and the Reagan Administration's reluctance) to give Chrysler a loan made him a Democrat.

Now I also drive a Toyota, but not everybody wants to own a Japanese import. Keeping American companies alive, thriving and competitive is to everyone's advantage.

[solinvictus]

217. General Motors Woes...

GM's management has brought ruin onto themselves. Back in the 1990;s, they were smart to create the Geo line of cars by partnering with Toyota, Isuzu and Suzuki to create an economy car (Metro), a sedan (Prizm), a coupe (Storm), and a small SUV (Tracker). Now, the Metro is a Suzuki Swift, the sedan is a Corolla, and the Tracker is a Suzuki Sidekick. Still, it was a great idea but unfortunately, GM discontinued the line without developing a viable replacement for the cars. For example, I own a 2001 Chevy Metro. Because it was made by Suzuki of Japan and Canada, I trust it implicitly. Since then, GM has taken Suzuki over and moved all production to South Korea. If you buy a Suzuki model, you're actually purchasing a bargain-basement Daewoo model. This will make Suzuki the second Japanese car company that has been ruined by GM, the first being Isuzu.

Here's my list of blunders:
1) Acquiring redundant companies that ultimately did nothing to support core competencies or potential markets.
2) Failing to anticipate a changing market demographic that is more concerned with overall quality rather than brand loyalty. As America's population ages, GM's core demographic is dying off.
3) Producing vehicles that have failures engineered into components, trim, and fixtures and then, designing the product such that the average car owner is unable to make simple repairs. There's no compelling reason one should have to remove motor mounts, tilt the engine block, and likely remove a cross member to change a starter (Pontiac Grand Am).
4) With the acquisitions, failing to heed the "law of diminishing returns", which states that repeated patterns eventually yield lesser return value for the same output. With this, GM also competed against itself in a saturated market and was less adaptable to change.
5) Failing to standardize parts within divisions. For example, some GM vehicles have standard, metric, and Torx head bolts all through the same vehicle. Additionally, starters, alternators, and even engines may be cannibalized from several divisions for the same production run. My grandad's S-10 pickup was like this: it had leftover components from several different lines so buying even a simple part was a chore.

I'm sorry for the workers, but the company has sealed its own fate by producing inferior vehicles for decades.

[pstokely]

218. The Pontiac Vibe is actually a Toyota

but they don't really promote that

[socialistrot]

220. You can thank the UAW for that.