Something DOESN'T Add up on SPYGATE

[berni_mccoy]

There is something here that I'm not sure if it's been discussed yet.

The issue I keep coming back to is that Bush ran to the NYT to prevent them from running the story.

BUT, The NYT has HAD THIS STORY FOR OVER A YEAR and Bush has known THAT TOO.

IF it was a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY, then Bush COULD HAVE AND WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THE NYT From running it.

The ONLY Conclusion from that is that it WAS NOT a matter of National Security.

Not only does that UNDERMINE Bush's hay-making about irresponsible leakers, but IT TELLS US THAT BUSH WAS NOT SPYING FOR TERRORISM.

The people he was spying on and the reasons he was spying on them MUST BE FOR ANOTHER MOTIVE.

A Few things come to mind:

- Political espionage
- Blackmail material
- Controlling the public

This is WHY this story is HUGE and is WHY BUSH WILL BE IMPEACHED.

[janx]

1. Keep in mind, too, that the NYT had been tarnished by

the Judy Miller propaganda. This story may have been a way for them to attempt to regain some credibility.

[berni_mccoy]

3. Yes, that's very true, but they would not have been able to publish it

if it meant undermining National Security. Obviosly, they KNOW it's not for NS and so does the Bush admin.

[janx]

16. True. At least the NYT knows now that it wouldn't

do any damage. It probably wouldn't have in the first place, but if the president of the U.S. summons you to the Oval Office and requests that you don't publish it, you would probably comply. But then was then, etc....

THe "national security" phrase has been ratcheted up in recent days because the Chimp administration wants a tit for a tat re the Plame investigation. The NYT is the perfect target, no?

[tavalon]

59. They also know

it would do less damage now then say, in 2005 before the election.

I wish everyone would boycott these bastards. They deserve to go bankrupt for the evil they perpetrated on this country.

[chicagiana]

49. Judy Miller had the Time's owner's ...

Judy Miller had the owner of the NY Times' dick in her hand. Judy was calling the shots and she was a Republican shill.

Judy's logical next step would be taking over Simple Scottie's job after he dies from telling the most lies in human history.

Seriously, I think I would crack after saying "ongoing investigation" for the 4,000th time. Scotty is a MACHINE!!!!

[boilinmad]

60. or.........

Or, they could have planned the whole Judith Miller scandal to defame the New York Times, setting the groundwork for this story to be doubted, as well.......;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Good point. Heaven knows they've prevented a lot of info from

getting out there. Redact this, suppress that... Very odd that something of this nature that makes his majesty look so bad would be allowed to get out.

Unless, in their twisted minds they thought it would make him look good? "See, here's yer pretzeldent hard at work and workin' hard."

[HysteryDiagnosis]

Lookin' forward, forward lookin'. nt.

[billybob537]

4. They may have had the story

but only got the conformation when Shrub tried to kill the story?

[berni_mccoy]

7. They released it because the original reporter was going to scoop them

with his book. He KNEW it wasn't a matter of Nat'l sec, the NYT knew it and so did shrubco.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Yes, they were trying to save face.. not that it does the NYT much

good these days.

[pberq]

50. Now that explains things.

If they knew they were going to be scooped.

[billybob537]

9. Gotta love those irresponsible leakers,

as opposed to the BADMINISTRATION sponsored ones'
Oh oh, I think I coined a new Phrase BADMINISTRATION

I like it.

[TheDebbieDee]

29. Badministration......I like it, too, Billybob.

It describes those Keystone Kops to a tee!

[stickdog]

61. Unfortunately the New War Times has aided and abetted BushCorp's

Badministration.

[Warpy]

5. Uh, well, YES, that's been the point all along

The only question is what has changed in the last two weeks to cause them to run the story. My guess is that they did a sweep of some of the offices and turned up a ton and a half of spy hardware and realized that was only the tip of a very large iceberg.

FISA courts are a rubberstamp. You can bet that none of the illegal spying has been done on the powerless. It's all been done on the sort of people whose names would have raised a red flag at even a rubberstamp court.

This is the sort of thing that is done to Congressmen, judges, media, and the opposition party.

How do I know? I've been though this before. This is exactly what Nixon did.

[berni_mccoy]

10. They were forced to run it because the original reporter

Has a book coming out with the story in it. He knew it wasn't a matter of Nat'l security, the NYT knew it and so does shrubco.

[EuroObserver]

40. You need to understand that all communications are monitored anyway

(electronic, that is - phone, fax, email, web...), more or less, by the US-UK-Australia-NZ-(and I heard a couple of years ago Japan) Echelon (these days Carnivore?) system/technology. You know it makes sense {only half-ironic}.

So, the material is available. It's only a question of 'who' does 'what' with it.

Way I heard it a few years ago, used to be, US agencies weren't allowed to spy on US citizens at home, so they'd just ask the Brits, for example, to do it for them and report.

...But, of course, that would only be possible/sensible if the _reason_ (justification) for such domestic US spying would seem to be reasonably legitimate security concerns (from the ally's perspective also). Dirty domestic political tricks, for example, would probably be too sensitive for such an approach - too much risk the story might get out?

[tularetom]

6. Political espionage sounds good to me

I think it will come out that spying on political opponents was widespread. But what encourages me about the story is that the whore NYT refused to cave and pull the story when bush tried to force them to do so. Maybe the MSM is beginning to grow spines.

[C_U_L8R]

8. Exactly - WHO are they spying on in this country ????

They are hiding Bush's enemies list... and his minions are throwing as much
bullshit confetti in their air to distract the general public (and the lame lazy media)
from digging deeper and exposing the truth about George.

Every responsible reporter and public servant should be persuing this until
the administrtation comes clean (or is impeached... or both)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. A MUCH shorter list is, upon whom are they NOT spying?

[EuroObserver]

12. Well, there was this:

White House keeps dossiers on more than 10,000 'political enemies'
By DOUG THOMPSON
Publisher, Capitol Hill Blue
Nov 8, 2005, 06:40

Spurred by paranoia and aided by the USA Patriot Act, the Bush Administration has compiled dossiers on more than 10,000 Americans it considers political enemies and uses those files to wage war on those who disagree with its policies.

The “enemies list” dates back to Bush’s days as governor of Texas and can be accessed by senior administration officials in an instant for use in campaigns to discredit those who speak out against administration policies or acts of the President.

The computerized files include intimate personal details on members of Congress; high-ranking local, state and federal officials; prominent media figures and ordinary citizens who may, at one time or another, have spoken out against the President or Administration.

Capitol Hill Blue has spoken with a number of current and former administration officials who acknowledge existence of the enemies list only under a guarantee of confidentiality. Those who have seen the list say it is far more extensive than Richard Nixon’s famous “enemies list” of Watergate fame or Bill Clinton’s dossiers on political enemies.

“How is that you think Karl (Rove) and Scooter (Libby) were able to disseminate so much information on Joe Wilson and his wife,” says one White House aide. “They didn’t have that information by accident. They had it because they have files on those who might hurt them.”

White House insiders tell disturbing tales of invasion of privacy, abuse of government power and use of expanded authority under the USA Patriot Act to dig into the personal lives of anyone the administration deems an enemy of the state.

.../more: http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7625.shtml

[C_U_L8R]

24. What's inside Bush's enemies list ??????

Bush's enemies list belongs to "we the people" !!!!
Afterall ... we paid for them and this government belongs to US... no matter what they think.

What other illegal activities are going on in the White House??????

[EuroObserver]

30. Looks like Karl's 'insurance policy'?

(And pension guarantee).

[C_U_L8R]

31. KKKarl is copying Henrich again...

Himmler that is.

[Sparkman]

13. "Spygate" as in wire tapping and surveilance of U.S., domestics?

[berni_mccoy]

15. yep. the warrentless kind.

[Quakerfriend]

14. They are spying on me nearly every day.

DoD hits my firewall several times/day.

[janx]

17. How can you tell?

:shrug: Just curious!

[converted_democrat]

28. If you have a firewall, look and see who has tried to get through it...

That's the way most around here can tell...They don't even attempt to "hide" it, it usually comes up DOD...

[Joanne98]

53. How do you do that?

[greiner3]

55. Thanks for saying so;

I was using windows' firewall. I just turned it off and going back to Zonealarm. I don't want bill or steve knowing everywhere I go. I could see they and the feds teaming up.

[MissMarple]

19. They have always been suspicious of the Quakers.

Nothing scares these control types so much as unwavering adherence to high principle coupled with a desire for peace and social equity.

In the Denver Post today is a list of groups that have been investigated by the FBI as terrorists, they are mostly peace and environmental groups who do nothing more than mild civil disobedience at the very most (like slowing down traffic). They hadn't yet released all the names the ACLU suspects them of investigating, maybe that is why the American Friends Service Committee wasn't on it.

[janx]

22. Is Rocky Mountain Peace and Justice on the list? n/t

[MissMarple]

32. Yup. I'll see if I can find a link. Here it is...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3335785

"Absent checks and balances to rein them in, police and security agencies will expand secret spying. As the Colorado ACLU has discovered, the definition of domestic terrorism already is broad enough to include a whole lot of people doing nothing to terrify anyone.

In December 2004, Silverstein asked the FBI whether it had files on 16 groups. Today, Silverstein has FBI records that name eight of those groups, plus several others he didn't ask about. The feds are double-checking on seven more groups for whom they initially found no records. They have not yet reported on an eighth - Citizens for Peace in Space - that Silverstein is certain has been investigated.
...
The numbers and letters are necessary to suggest crime, which is what you're supposed to suspect to open a terrorist investigation. But there is no crime outside of a little nonviolent protest.
...
This would be good news if there had been good reason to worry in the first place. Consider instead, this scary intelligence used to justify a domestic terrorism investigation of the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace and Rocky Mountain Citizens for Peace and Justice at an anti-war rally in Colorado Springs a month before the U.S. invaded Iraq:

"They are hyping the demonstration," wrote an FBI agent, "as 'the biggest peace rally in the history of Colorado.' ... The two groups are advocating committing what they refer to as 'civil disobedience,' possibly by blocking vehicular traffic ..."

When you stop laughing, think about giving the man or woman who wrote this, or someone like them, the right to tap your phone or intercept your e-mail without a court order."

[janx]

36. I was there!

Consider instead, this scary intelligence used to justify a domestic terrorism investigation of the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace and Rocky Mountain Citizens for Peace and Justice at an anti-war rally in Colorado Springs a month before the U.S. invaded Iraq:


Uh-oh...

[Quakerfriend]

23. I know because I can look at the addresses of anyone who

tries to gain access to my computer.

Yes, MissMarple, so true. Funny thing is I'm a middle-aged housewife who has not attended Quaker meeting in years, and have never participated in any rally (Not that I'm proud of it mind you)!

[janx]

25. I'm going to find out how to check mine! n/t

[Quakerfriend]

26. My husband just installed a firewall. From this you can see

the timing of their 'hits' and their addresses. It's sort of scary to see how many people from all over the world are gaining access to our info- every second it gets hits somewhere- from China, India etc.

[janx]

27. Wow. I have a friend who installed security software,

firewall, etc. on my computer. So I'm going to ask him. Thanks for letting me know.

[electropop]

47. A hardware firewall/router is the best option

Your computer run Micro$oft garbage (unless you're a Mac user), and everything M$ does includes gaping security holes. A router with firewall can protect all your computers at once with better security than any software firewall.

[chicagiana]

52. Yes you need that ...

You also need to install good spyware protection. Once a connection is intiated from the "inside" you are compromised. Be VERY careful about what you want to download and install. Don't install it unless you KNOW what it is. If your teen wants to use it, absolutely REFUSE ;-)

[Marr]

37. I get the same thing. It never happened before I started posting

political content. My site started off as a simple animation/illustration site, but about 2002 I started putting up more political content. Suddenly, *poof*, the DoD became animation fans.

[fooj]

20. You are right on target, IMO.

- Political espionage
- Blackmail material
- Controlling the public

The rat bastard thinks we are all stupid! Think again...

Peace.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Think of the timing

Supposedly someone at the Times was going to blow the whistle via a book, which Bush couldn't stop. But he could decide WHEN the news came out-why not the week before Christmas, when not only the holidays but the fireworks in Congress over various bills can distract attention?

[DURHAM D]

33. What does not add up is Bush's role in the White House.

I don't think he knew about the taps until recently. In April of 2004 when he made the comments about needing a court order for wiretaps he thought he was speaking the truth.

This is a Cheney run operation. Finally they had to tell Bush what they were up to when the Times asked for comment prior to running the story and Cheney knew the lid was coming off. They trotted Bush out to appeal to the Times to try and kill it but it did not work.


To me the obvious question is not being asked - Who is running the Bush White House? When did Bush really know about the wiretaps? Why can't he hold the V-Ps office accountable? Dick has Georgie babe in a corner.

[EuroObserver]

44. This is a Cheney run operation.

You said it.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[berni_mccoy]

35. It really bothers you doesn't it... Bush spying on U.S. Citizens.

What ever happened to the 4th Amendment and the rest of the Constitution.

[Karmakaze]

38. Lol

See ya later pal... :P

[Cults4Bush]

39. Lickspittle Liberals, eh? Your ilk must be getting worried. Hey Kool Aid!!

Its Hugh Series111 flavored! Drink up war crime enabler!

[dogday]

41. A Personal Hatred usually entails

that the person being hated has done something so outrageous that he has brought this hate upon himself. Everyone just hates shrub for no reason? Now that is something, the new line is that we are picking on shrub, poor baby, everyone wants to bring him down.

[Boojatta]

58. You say: "A Personal Hatred usually entails ...

...that the person being hated has done something so outrageous that he has brought this hate upon himself."

Are you sure that you want to rely upon that "usually"? For example, if the people on the enemies list are hated then ... say good-bye to freedom of speech unless the speech has been pre-approved by government authorities who have decided that the speech is not "outrageous"?

[purji]

42. You do realize that now that you have posted here

They might just start spying on you now.

[Kingofalldems]

43. Happy Holidays!

[electropop]

48. It's 100% consistent with everything we know about him.

He's slimy, sneaky, mean-spirited and vindictive. He's a serial criminal. Which part of this is inconsistent with spying on us?

[EC]

45. It also occured to me last night that all of PNAC is in the

White House and in other offices to take control...I wonder if there is a PNAC'er on the board of every major news source also?

[seabeyond]

46. i can agree with everything you say. further, nyt's new it was political

and not for security reasons to hold the store. so they purposely helped bush in the election being quiet. the only reason it got out, is because it was coming out in the writers book. they had to get it out to say, see we arent helping hte whitehouse once again, like we did with miller and wmd's and with the plame case and their reporters involved

[greiner3]

51. NYT has been flop-flopping for a couple of years now; n/t

[FogerRox]

54. berni_mccoy

I get to a similar conclusion, different route.

The BUSH Admin. so far-- has kept the veneer of "we live in a democracy" intact.

That means they dont do certain things-- because if they go too far -- even the conservatives will revolt.

So stopping the NYT from printing this-- a year ago-- would have set a precident. One the BUSH admin was not willing to. NOT YET.

I think the real issue here may be that intercepts have occured in ALL emails and phone calls to or from the USA. Millions. Since Oct 25-01. This is the story that would have regular repubs calling for impeachment in a heart beat.

AS long as they maintain the veneer of a real democracy-- BUSH is vunerable to impeachment.

[LSK]

56. the original author was going to come out with it in a book,

The NY Times had to act to get a scoop on the story.

[Dunvegan]

57. Or the book author was going to implicate the NYT in his book...

...so they outed themseves an instant before they were outed in the book.

Can't wait for that book....

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Well clearly, If it had anything to do with Terra at all, he could

have gotten a FISA warrant. There's a 72 hour window to issue those things retroactively.

No, something smells real funny with all this. I concur.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Oh, and

fuck the NY Times. They've got plenty to account for with what this administration has been able to get away with.