Polygamy.

[Rainbow gatherer]

Saw a repeat of a Dr. Phil on polygamy -- seemed to be slanted against it, but did feature some women who thought it was great. I have to admit that I swing to the libertarian view on this (let them live as they want).

Any comments on this? It would open up a lot of options for people today.

[Skittles]

I don't care what f***ed up adults do

but when they recruit children and teenagers - that is WRONG WRONG WRONG

[gonefishing]

4. Read Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer

It's an intersting read that includes this subject.

Also, you will like this:

"http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/rubyjess.htm"

<SNIP>
In April of 2003 Senator Orrin Hatch made some comments that were very favorable to the polygamists of Hildale UT/Colorado City AZ. He stated that he has many friends among the Polygamists. In response, "Help the Child Brides" issued a challenge to the Senator. We asked him to go out to his friend Fred Jessop's house and bring Ruby in to Saint George where she could be interviewed by Social Workers and experts in abuse. We stated that if conditions among the polygamists are as free and good as he claimed, then his polygamous friends should be happy to allow Ruby an opportunity to set the record straight on her situation.

To date Senator Hatch has not responded to our challenge. It is clear that Senator Hatch spoke the entire truth when he stated that he has many friends among the Polygamists.

[atommom]

7. This is important information. I'm usually inclined to "live and let live

but what I've read about the read-life world of polygamy is hair-raising. There's a great deal of domestic and sexual abuse, there are forced marriages, and there is a great deal of suffering associated with this way of life.

[porphyrian]

12. This is also true of monogamy, and in greater numbers.

The practice itself isn't the problem. It's just that the fucked up abusive people are the ones you hear about. As long as it's illegal and taboo, you would likely never hear from those who don't have something to prove that practice it.

Insane people do insane things. Sane people can successfully practice just about any form of relationship (if only for a time), as long as there is a mutual understanding and agreement.

[LostinVA]

15. That's because the screwed up, abusive people are the majority

doing it. It's definitely a control and power thing in this country. I doubt there are many women with multiple male spouses.

[porphyrian]

21. Who knows? It doesn't matter anyway.

The practice isn't the problem, abusive people are.

[LostinVA]

28. I know -- it's fact, not my opinion

The problem IS polygamy, specifically how it's practiced in this country.

[porphyrian]

49. So, you know of all instances of polygamy practiced in the USA...

...and you are able to say that they are all the problem? You're wrong simply on the basis that you can't know what you're talking about. You can't know everyone who practices it, or how they do so.

I don't doubt that you can point to instances, maybe many, where the practicioners are fucked up and do horrible things, but the problem is with those people, not the practice itself. Maybe you have some personal reason for deciding that it's all bad all the time, I don't know. However, broad brush condemnation of a form of relationship based solely on the actions of some claiming to practice it is illogical and dishonest.

[zanne]

17. What if I wanted to have multiple husbands?

I would look more favorably on the idea of polygamy if it wasn't one-sided.

[TahitiNut]

19. Polygamy is either multiple husbands or multiple wives or both

Polyandry refers exclusively to a woman with multiple husbands.
Polygyny refers exclusively to a man with multiple wives.

Polygamy refers to either ... or both. "Both"?? Yes, it also covers a marital arrangement where there are both multiple males and multiple females in a 'group marriage.' Interestingly, this would probably cover a homosexual relationship of that kind as well.

Such marital relationships are typically prohibited, not from any originally moral stance, but due to property and entitlement considerations, imho, including inheritance.

[porphyrian]

23. What TahitiNut said.

;)

[porphyrian]

22. It's out there, it's just called polyandry.

I don't have a problem with that, either. Abusive people practice all kinds of relationships, that doesn't make the relationship the problem.

[NaturalHigh]

31. I've read it.

It's an excellent book, and it gives an insider's view of just how messed up some of these people are. I don't care if the adults decide to screw up their own lives, but they shouldn't be allowed to prey on children.

[stanwyck]

32. I read Krakauer's book. Chilling

as a result of that book, I don't have a favorable view of polygamy.

[Skittles]

1. dupe

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lvx35]

3. I agree on protecting the rights.

To me, you really can't have the state defining things for churches or vice versa, and that includes marriage. And as much as I think the polygamous mormons are nutty, its their right. It should be allowed along with gay marriage, and polygamy with many husbands.

[LostinVA]

30. No, they shouldn't be allowed

Didn't you read other posts on this thread? Those "nutty Mormons" are forcing this onto underage girls, some as young as 12, and some into marriage with extremely close relatives, including blood uncles and stepfathers.

[lvx35]

45. Why no,

I didn't read the other threads, I was the second to post :) but you are talking about statory rape and incest, which is outside the scope of polygamy. Polygamy, polyamory, gay marriage, I say anything goes!

[LWolf]

5. I have concerns

about the power structure in that sort of relationship. If it were entered into, and maintained, as a free choice by consenting adults, ok. But a man with 5 wives? How do you have an equal partnership that way? How does the power not automatically swing to the one man, and divide between the women according to how he bestows favors? It seems like an arrangement that is more about power than partnership. In that case, it seems like there would always be losers.

[Cerridwen]

6. Unless the 5 women are in charge?

:evilgrin:

Yah, I know, not in this currect climate. Polygyny has never made sense to me as anything other than an exercise in controlling a group of women and their progeny; ensuring parentage of any children and the accompanying property and power rights.

[helderheid]

8. so long as they are consenting adults. I am in Utah - many in that

lifestyle are underage (13, 14) girls being married off to men in their 30s, 40s, 50s.

[LostinVA]

38. Exactly -- I wish people on this thread who are pro polygamy

would understand that -- this is an instrument too often used in this country to victimize and control innocents.

[northzax]

48. because people aren't opposed to something

in principle, doesn't mean they support how it is actually practiced.

I can support the right of adults to do what they want, but that doesn't include a 12 year old marrying anyone.

an extreme example. I support the logical right to gay sex, between consenting adults. I don't support a man having sex with a boy. See my point?

[liontamer]

9. marriage is supposed to be about equality

if that exists within a polygamous union, great. if by polygamy you rather mean 50 year old community elder with 10 wives 5 of whom are under the age of 18, then this is just slavery.

[atommom]

10. The thing about these polygamous marriages ... well, there are

several things that are troubling. In the Mormon faith, the man is viewed as the absolute head of household. The women are expected to be completely subservient, and they believe they won't even get to go to heaven unless the man gives his OK. Forced marriages and abuse are still common.

Here's an excerpt from a "call to action" several years ago. Little progress seems to have been made...

We are deeply concerned by reports indicating a pattern of polygamy-related abuses in Utah, site of the 2002 Winter Olympics, and neighboring states. Women and girls in polygamous families are subjected to violence, child marriage, trafficking, the coerced marriage of adult women, and sexual abuse, including incest. Many live in closed religious communities in which they are denied education and access to information from the outside world. Although international human rights law and U.S. law prohibit these abuses, state and federal officials have failed to ensure that these standards are observed in practice. At a time when the U.S. has championed the cause of women's human rights in Afghanistan, we are particularly disturbed that those who violate women's human rights in the U.S. enjoy impunity.

Many of these polygamous families belong to a religious group known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, which broke away from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints (the "Mormon Church") over the mainstream Church's official ban on polygamy. Although polygamy is prohibited by the Utah State Constitution and its bigamy statutes, the prosecution of Tom Green in 2001 for polygamy was the first since 1953. Mr. Green had embarrassed state officials through his aggressive promotion of polygamy in the media at a time when preparations for the Winter Olympics had focused public attention on Utah.

Women and girls who have fled polygamous families report that religious teachings emphasize their duty to submit to the authority of their fathers, husbands, and male religious leaders, and make spiritual salvation contingent on polygamy. The religious teachings of these polygamous groups and the closed nature of their communities create conditions in which women and girls are especially vulnerable to violence, coercion, and abuse.

Reported cases indicate a pattern of child marriage, sexual abuse and trafficking, in which girls from the ages of 13 to 16 have been married to older men and girls are being trafficked to Canada for marriage to polygamous men in British Columbia. Adult women have also described battering, intimidation and sexual abuse within polygamous families. Young women inside these communities are vulnerable to coercion by family members and religious leaders to enter polygamous marriages. Trained to obey religious teachings and denied any other education, they may see no real alternative.

http://www.wluml.org/english/actionsfulltxt.shtml?cmd%5B156%5D=i-156-3124

Aside from all that, a number of polygamous households need government assistance to stay afloat. It takes quite an income to maintain a household of that size.

[rbnyc]

11. When I think about...

...a group of adults who are in a polyamorous relationship and come to a place like the LGBT Center in NYC for networking and support of their lifestyle choice, I am all for it.

When I think about some bass-ackwards religious freak in some little town in Utah or there-abouts, with 20 wives, most of them essentially children, and all of them in servitude, afraid to speak out, afraid to leave either because they will be beaten or killed or because they actually believe that this is God's will for them...well I think it aught to be illegal.

Is this just some kind of regional, cultural bias on my part, I ask myself honestly.

Ummmm, No.

[Triana]

39. Exactly...Polygamy is NOT Polyamory...

...those are two very different things.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. I see nothing wrong with Polygamy. It isn't my business.

I could care less about it. The only thing that matters is that other laws are followed such as age of consent and domestic abuse. If someone has 20 wives and abuses them polygamy isn't the problem, his desire to be abusive is. If he marries a 14 year old polygamy isn't the problem, pedophilia is, etc...

Polygamy itself is none of my business and to each their own.

[Hamlette]

16. it is your problem, your tax dollars support polygamous families

I live in Utah and work for the welfare agency here. Trust me. The majority of polygamous families receive welfare. In the infamous Tom Green case, he received $60,000 a year in welfare (mostly medicaid payments, food stamps and housing allowances). Your tax dollars at work.

Families with 30 kids can't support them. I don't want to.

[LostinVA]

18. They call it "bleeding the Beast," and do it on purpose

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Sorry, Not A Good Enough Reason For Me To Care.

When billions and billions and billions of our tax dollars are going to fight an illegal war and pay criminals I really don't give a fuck if a little bit of it goes to some family with 30 kids, no offense.

[LostinVA]

36. It is a good enough reason when you know why they do it

Many of them can afford their wives and children. In Colorado City, you have people living in $500,000 houses (and not SOCA $500,000 houses), collecting welfare and food stamps for 30 people specifically to RUIN and bankrupt these programs. There are enough people in AZ who truly, truly need these programs and don't qualify. It needs to go where it is needed.

If you think for one minute that one cent of the money spent in Iraq would go to any needy US resident, you're misinformed.

The leaders of these groups are literally evil, and this is just one reason out of many: taking food and money from those who truly need it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Sorry, Not Misinformed About Anything. Furthermore, I Refrain From

generalizing so broadly.

Please take heed the statement and sentiment: There is nothing wrong with Polygamy at the core of Polygamy, in my opinion. All those other things you list are associated with a person who is flawed, bad intentioned, at times criminal, and has personal issues. It has nothing to do with polygamy. There are many polygamists that are decent and fine. Polygamy may attract some whackos, but that doesn't make polygamy bad, it makes the person bad to begin with. I hope you understand the difference.

Polygamy as a definition is merely having more than one spouse. If those involved agree and have no qualms, God bless em and more power to em. They have the damn right.

[Pushed To The Left]

46. I agree! Consenting adults should be allowed

to live as they choose. Domestic abuse and statutory rape are totally separate issues.

[LostinVA]

14. The vast majority in polygamous relationships in this country are

underage females forced into it. Even most adult women are also forced into it through their religion and/or families. This isn't a group of "free love" people wanting alternatives to traditional marriages -- I don't care about that, free adults have a right to do whatever the heck they want to. I'm gay, I certainly don't mind.. But, the way it's set up in this country is abusive and coercive. Even women who have publicly said they loved it and went into freely later recant and say they were forced to lie.

Read "Under the Banner of Heaven," read about Warren Jeffs. That's the real face of polygamy in this country. One of the girls on Dr. Phil went back to Jeffs' cult because she felt she would burn in Hell if she didn't. She has since married a man more than twice her age.

[long_green]

20. Why thank you, I'd love some

nm

[slackmaster]

25. One good woman with a strong sex drive is all I can handle

:grouphug:

[William Bloode]

26. I more or less have two wives.

I am legaly married to one, and spirtually married to the other. We all live and love together, and have for over 10yrs. Most naysayers are just jealous in my assumption. Which i can see i reckon, as many people have trouble finding such love with a single person while i have two.

[CrazyForKucinich]

27. I'm in the process of writing a screenplay in favor of polyamourous love.

Hopefully it makes it to the big screen.

[bicentennial_baby]

29. yay for polys!

:bounce:

[helderheid]

33. weird - DU says there are 62 replies to this thread ???

[Cleita]

34. Why is this different than serial marriage, which most

Americans practice? You know, marriage, divorce, marriage divorce.

[helderheid]

35. see post 8

[Cleita]

37. I was referring to consenting adults over eighteen.

What's going on in Utah with the polygamous sects there is child abuse, IMHO.

[helderheid]

41. I agree. Past that, consenting adults, none of my business and enjoy!

[haydukelives]

40. Why would anybody

want two wifes?

[misanthrope]

43. THAT'S my question...

...one partner is "one too many" sometimes.

[RagingInMiami]

47. Some men are masochists

[bicentennial_baby]

50. well for some people...

love is infinitely expansive...as one wise DUer said to me recently. As one of those people, i must say don't judge that of which you have no knowledge. :)

[Jed Dilligan]

42. Polygamy, on its own, is a neutral concept.

Clearly, it's the Mormon religion's weird views on sex and marriage that cause the problems.

I'm sure that outside of Mormonism polygamy/polyandry/polyfidelity could be practiced without abuses.

[bicentennial_baby]

51. bingo

"I'm sure that outside of Mormonism polygamy/polyandry/polyfidelity could be practiced without abuses."

:applause: