Bush* Lied? Dean says it's "unthinkable"

[sangha]

Yesterday there was a thread ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=49666&mesg_id=49666&listing_type=search ) where Daschle was criticized for supposedly "defending" Bush by make a comment that he couldn't accept the idea that Bush* would lie about this.

Today, I read that Dean says he thinks it's "unthinkable" that Bush lied. ( http://www.thebostonchannel.com/politics/2324514/detail.html )

My question is, will the same people who criticized Daschle in that thread hold Dean to the same standard?

[CafeToad]

1. I would say the same thing

Namely, I find it unthinkable that the (so-called) President lied to the American People.

Still, it happened, I cannot deny that, and from the tone of the article, I suspect neither does Dean.

[tjdee]

2. Uh, no is the answer to that question.

That was a number of days ago, Dean voted against the war (oh that's right he didn't vote)....we already "know" Daschle has a history of blahlbhalblahalbhlab...

What does unthinkable even *mean*, anyway....

good catch though.

[ibegurpard]

Good catch, my ass.

And Sangha I'm surprised at you...posting out-of-context, incomplete interpretations of quotes (although it's pretty common on this board) seems a little beneath you.

Here, from your linked article, is the ENTIRE portion dealing with Dean's remarks:

"Campaigning in New Hampshire, Democrat Howard Dean demanded the resignation of any Bush administration official or federal government employee who failed to tell the president that claims about Iraq buying uranium from Africa were false.

"We do not know who these senior officials are, but the president should have been given that information," Dean told a group of reporters outside a hospital in Derry, N.H. "The individuals who misled the president know who they were and they should resign immediately."

The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: "The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

Asked whether he thought Vice President Dick Cheney should resign if he knew, Dean said, "Anybody who misled Bush should leave office, whoever that may be."

Pressed on whether Bush should resign, Dean said, "I think before we cross to that we better find out what the facts are."

But in an echo of Watergate and a Republican president who did resign, Richard M. Nixon, Dean said, "The time for stonewalling is over.""

Readers interpret that how you will but at least you have all his remarks to make your judgement.
As for yesterday's threads on Daschle, the thread-starter was guilty of the same thing...using half of Daschle's quote to support his stand that Daschle is a gutless wimp.

[sangha]

I posted links

so people can read it all if they choose. Why do you only post Dean's full remarks?

on edit: And I didn't say that these were "gutless" statements. I just want to know if the people who criticized Daschle's statements will hold Dean to the same standard.

[ibegurpard]

18. I posted Dean's full remarks

because you know as well as I do that there are a lot of people who dogpile on someone because of a remark that someone says they made without bothering to check the link. I think Daschle was unfairly raked over the coals here yesterday for the same reason...a link was posted but most people (in my opinion) did not bother to check the link and instead took the thread-starters interpretation at face value. I think if they HAD gone to the source, then many of them would have gotten a slightly different interpretation of Daschle's remarks.

[dsc]

22. Huh?

I am still trying to believe you typed that? You edit a quote so selectively that you should take a job with propaganda incorporated and you have the gall to ask why someone posted the whole quote? And just what should this person have posted? The price of tea in China? Simply amazing.

[sangha]

28. Be honest

I didn't "ask why someone posted the whole quote" - I asked why someone posted only Dean's full quote. If I was unfair, I was equally unfair to both of them.

[dsc]

33. I didn't see the other thread

and given what I would assume its length to be I won't use your link to get there (I don't have DSL). But you didn't just pick Dean's name out of the sky. I hardly think one should have to go to a very slow link to find Daschle's quote in order to be permitted to use Dean's.

[sangha]

50. I gave you a link

You should read it before commenting. You obviously don't understand my complaint. You seem to think it has something to do with "quoting out of context". It doesn't. It's about a double-standard.

But here's the link that goes right to the Daschle story:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030715/pl_afp/us_iraq_weapons_politics_1

[DagmarK]

34. We post DEAN's quote......because this isnt the Dachle thread.....

the only tie-in to Dachle's quote and the purpose for this piece of crap thread by you is for you ask: ARE YOU DUers going to get on Dean like you did with Daschle?

So, whose quote are you looking for? Daffy Duck's???

You are a prize.

[deutsey]

35. ?

I'm still not understanding what you're objection is here. The person posted the relevant Dean quote.

[sangha]

52. It's just a distraction

They don't want to address the point I raised about a double-standard, so they'll make a fuss about the quotes, even though I link to them.

[ibegurpard]

58. I addressed the double standard

By saying I think Daschle was treated unfairly in that thread. I can't speak for anyone else, though.

[sangha]

61. I saw that, and thank you.

But I'm really interested in those who criticized Daschle in the other thread. Not many of them have posted yet, and I doubt they will, but at least one has shown up, and he's explaining why it's OK for Dean but wrong for Daschle.

[Kahuna]

132. I know I should stay out of this but...

You are 100% right. They are casting a new argument and making a personal assault on you instead of answering a very legitimate question.

[Eloriel]

106. Intellectual dishonesty at its best, Sangha

Too bad it's not a surprise coming from you.

But I think this little escapade -- selective quotes to the max -- cements your reputation with me.

Eloriel

[tjdee]

It's a good catch for some of those replying to the Daschle thread.

I see what sangha's doing here, and IMO it serves to show how ridiculous some of the replies in the Daschle thread were.

Sometimes at DU I find context to be lacking....I think it's something all sides should work on.

[sangha]

30. But they won't respond to that point

They will spin about how I didn't post the full quotes, and why one was right while the other was wrong. None of them will own up to the double standard

[dsc]

39. I am so sure if this person did this to your candidate

you would be saying the very same thing. Somehow I doubt it. Barring evidence which Sanga didn't give us that the majority of people who responded to that thread were Dean supporters this is out of line. And linking the thread isn't so great for those of us with dial up. If the thread is long at all it will take an age to load.

On edit I went and loaded the link. As I suspected it took forever (and I still couldn't see all posts). But what I did see was one person I know to be a Dean supporter trashing Daschle in comparision to three defending him. Yet this flame bait thread was clearly directed at supposedly hypocritical supporters of Dean. Who again by a margin of 3 to 1 defended Daschle. Shameful.

[sangha]

55. BS - I didn't criticize Dean in that post

I criticize those DUers who seem to have a double-standard. You might realize that if you read the thread, but it seems that learning the facts before speaking takes too much time for you.

This thread is about some DUers double-standards. It's not about Dean, and it's not about Daschle. I have no criticism for either of those statements.

[dsc]

72. Where oh where would I get the idea that

you insulted Dean? You post that he said that the idea that Bush lied is unthinkable with no context what so ever. Gee, fancy that I consider that attacking a candidate (not to mention patently dishonest). I did go to as much of that thread as I could download (yes there is more of a problem than time it also won't all load). It stopped at post 63 wherever that was in the scheme of the tread. It should be noted that damn few Dean supporters even commented on that thread. Of the four that I recognized THREE defended Daschle using the same arguement you did. Yet you do this to Dean and go on to imply that his supporters are hypocrites. No that isn't attacking a candidate God no.

[sangha]

77. You got that idea

by refusing to read the Daschle thread. I don't see how you can understand the double-standard without reading it.

But you won't. You will continue to focus on me, so that you can ignore the double-standard.

[dsc]

84. I said

I READ THE THREAD OR WHAT I COULD GET TO LOAD. TRY READING YOUSELF. BTW IT TOOK ME 15 MINUTES TO GET WHAT I GOT TO LOAD TO LOAD.

ON EDIT FROM POST 72 DIRECTLY ABOVE 77 IE THE POST YOU RESPONDED TO!!!!!!!

I did go to as much of that thread as I could download (yes there is more of a problem than time it also won't all load). It stopped at post 63 wherever that was in the scheme of the tread. It should be noted that damn few Dean supporters even commented on that thread. Of the four that I recognized THREE defended Daschle using the same arguement you did. Yet you do this to Dean and go on to imply that his supporters are hypocrites. No that isn't attacking a candidate God no


WHAT PART OF I DID GO TO AS MUCH OF THAT THREAD AS I COULD DOWNLOAD WAS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM UNCLEAR? WELL WHAT!!!!

[sangha]

91. The part that was unclear

was the part where you felt qualified to comment on something you hadn't read in full.

[dsc]

94. Well you tell me

just how I am supposed to get that to load? You could have kicked that thread to the top so that we could find it. You could have stated what page it was on or when it had last been altered so we coud find it. You did none of those. I'll tell you what. Go find a dial up connection and see if you can get the thread to load. In the meantime welcome to ignore you are literally the first.

[sangha]

102. OK, I'll tell you this

If you wanted to know a "date last updated" or a page number, you could have asked. DO you really think your circumstances is what I'm thinking about when I start a thread?

I'm tired of discussing your problems as if they represent some failing on my part. Good day, sir.

[dsc]

104. You should not have characterized what I

did as refusal to read. That is the word you typed. I went to the huge effort of finishing that thread. The count is now 3 to 3 among people I know to be Dean supporters. Even at that it is hardly fair to characterize the majority or the worst of the anti Daschle posts as coming from Dean supporters. No I don't expect that every post cater to dial up but I also don't expect that I will be accused of refusing to read what I TOLD YOU I COULDN'T. The fact is I did finally get a kick into that thread so I cold read it. Again my numbers are not 50/50 as opposed to 75/25 that is hardly out of line.

[sangha]

122. I shouldn't have used the word "refused"

I apologize for using the wrong word. However, I would like to point out two things

1) I never said the double-standard is the sole province of Dean supporters. I don't know why you're focused on that, even though I never even implied that this was about Dean or his supporters.

2) I don't know if you got to read, but the worst post in that thread was one that called DUers who defended Daschle's remarks "Bushbots" and "pod people". The DUer who posted that is a very vocal Dean supporter. If you want to PM me about it, I can PM you the names of the poster who I feel were unfairly critical, and you can compare the list to what you see in this thread.

3) I started this thread to identify and discuss what I perceive to be a double standard. I have little interest in spending so much time talking about your modem problems, and exactly what % are Dean supporters, etc. I want to discuss the double-standard. If all you can do in this thread is distract from this with irrelevancies, I will stop responding to your problems. I'm willing to go so far, but there's a principle of reciprocity here, and if you can't engage on the issue of the double-standard, then I see no reason to continue with you.

[dsc]

92. I shouldn't have shouted in the post above this

but to be blunt I was steamed after spending 15 minutes and more than a little frustration getting that to load only to be accused of not having read it when I clearly stated I had in an uneditted post. To have you bitch me out for 'refusing' to read what I read after a great deal of time and some effort made me angry. I should have controlled it better. I do stand behind though the idea that you should have read my post accurately before posting yours.

[sangha]

95. No problem

You can shout if you want. I don't have a problem with that.

However, you really should read the whole thread. I don't see how you can talk about the # of Dean supporters, and what they said in the thread without reading it all.

Furthermore, regardless of how many, or how few, are using this double-standard, it's certainly not the sort of thing that should be condoned. And to go even further, you should take a look at the posts in this thread (if it's not too long for you by now) and see how many people are providing context for Dean's remarks, while failing to do so for Daschle.

[XNASA]

3. Dean knows two things about this:

1. Bush doesn't really call the shots. He just reads what's put in front of him. Technically it's not a lie, but it is negligence.

2. If Dean expects to run and win, he can't afford to alienate anyone who voted for * in 2000. If he calls * a liar in public, then Dean runs the risk of losing votes. Hey, I don't like it any more than any of you do, but that's the way it is.

[baffie]

62. Bush voters were in the minority in 2000

Why should Dean avoid speaking the truth to please them?

[XNASA]

103. Of all the Dem candidates, Dean is the most honest.

I'm not sure what else you expect from him.

[baffie]

Bush voters were in the minority in 2000

Why should Dean avoid speaking the truth to please them?

[ProfessorGAC]

90. What XNASA Said!

Pragmatism would seem to be required in winning politics.
The Professor

[deutsey]

4. I didn't see the thread yesterday

but, if you take the quote in context, Dean doesn't seem to be saying that Bush could never have lied. In fact, he seems to suggest that it is an unthinkable possibility that he hopes did not happen:

"The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: 'The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen.'"

I'd love to see all the Dems come out and say Bush lied, but they probably don't feel they have "smoking gun" evidence to base such statements on yet.

ON EDIT: See also later in the article (which supports what I say above):

"Pressed on whether Bush should resign, Dean said, 'I think before we cross to that we better find out what the facts are.'"

[sangha]

16. I posted a link to yesterdays Daschle thread

you can read it if you like. The point isn't that these were "gutless" statements. For the record, I think they were very smart statements. Howver, some people disagreed when the statement was made by Daschle, and I'm wondering if those same people will hold Dean to the same standard.

[DagmarK]

43. Hold dean to the SAME STANDARD as Dachle?

Even when their statements are so completely DIFFERENT?

HUH????????????

[gWbush is Mabus]

5. OR

i don't have the context,

but maybe Dean was saying that what the prez. did to the country and american people was UNTHINKABLE (as in unbelievably irresponsible)

[DagmarK]

6. Come on Sangha, you can find something better to hang Dean with....

I know you work at it full-time.....

But your post today is even more misleading, inaccurate, and full of propogandic spin -- more so than usual, which is saying A LOT about your campaign to discredit Dean.

From the article:

Campaigning in New Hampshire, Democrat Howard Dean demanded the resignation of any Bush administration official or federal government employee who failed to tell the president that claims about Iraq buying uranium from Africa were false.

"We do not know who these senior officials are, but the president should have been given that information," Dean told a group of reporters outside a hospital in Derry, N.H. "The individuals who misled the president know who they were and they should resign immediately."

The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: "The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

Asked whether he thought Vice President Dick Cheney should resign if he knew, Dean said, "Anybody who misled Bush should leave office, whoever that may be."

Pressed on whether Bush should resign, Dean said, "I think before we cross to that we better find out what the facts are."

But in an echo of Watergate and a Republican president who did resign, Richard M. Nixon, Dean said, "The time for stonewalling is over."

Kerry, Dean and other Democrats running for president have called for an investigation, similar to the argument made in the DNC e-mail and the accompanying video that the Democrats hope to run as an ad.

[Cocoa]

13. I think this is more about the Daschle thread

than about Dean.

Notice the moderate tone of this thread so far, notice people calling for "context."

Then check out that Daschle thread and see all the spittle sprayed all over it, all the stupid name calling, capital letters and exclamation points.

[blm]

19. shhhhhh....

someone might hear you making sense.

heheh...your comprehensive skills are intact. ;))))

[ibegurpard]

26. BLM, you are not exactly the arbiter of impartiality.

:eyes:

[blm]

If you actually bothered to check the archives...

you'd see I bent over backward to be fair until ONE campaign team started attacking the other candidates. I held up their own record and their own words for scrutiny. That's all. If you don't like those actions and those words, then, that's not my doing.

[blm]

40. If you actually bothered to check the archives...

you'd see I bent over backward to be fair until ONE campaign team started attacking the other candidates. I held up their own record and their own words for scrutiny. That's all. If you don't like those actions and those words, then, that's not my doing.

Why wouldn't I defend those who were being lied about from the ones doing the lying? It's part of being a "liberal like Marian Wright Edelman."

[sangha]

21. Yes, its about more than one thread

it's about the hypocrisy of holding one Dem up to one standard, while using another, looser, standard for the other Dem.

[ibegurpard]

23. I agree Cocoa

I think a lot of people didn't even bother to read ALL of Daschle's remarks in the link provided in yesterday's threads. Yes, Daschle has been deserving of some of the scorn he gets but if we're going to rake him over the coals then at least look at the FULL QUOTE rather than the half the thread-starter chose to post in his/her message.

[DagmarK]

25. Sorry Cocoa.....but this is Sangha's volunteer job: discredit dean

It's getting old...........

This thread is ALL ABOUT holding dean's feet to the coals.

It has nothing to do with Daschle, other than Sangha being all in a fit that everyone on earth isn't running Dean out of the race......

Oh, I don't know...maybe it isn't a VOLUNTEER position? Could be a paid DLC consultant position, actually.

[Cocoa]

32. no; if I had seen this, I would have posted it for the same reason myself

in fact, as soon as the transcript is available of Dennis Kucinich on Hardball, refusing Tweety's demands that he call Bush a liar, I'm going to post that, and see how much outrage that generates, see how many people say "Kucinich defended Bush."

[Classical_Liberal]

38. I am not surprised you wuold have posted it yourself as you

are generally in Sangha's camp.

[DagmarK]

48. Yes, Cocoa, I am sure you would have......

But that doesn't mean anything.....given historical DU posting behavior.....and candidate bashing.

[Cocoa]

68. I NEVER bash candidates

You're making that up.

If you think that I have an agenda against any candidate, let me know which one it is, it would be a total surprise to me, because I don't.

[sangha]

36. That's not true

This is not about Daschle and it's not about Dean. I have no problem with either remark.

It's about the double standard some DUers use.

[Classical_Liberal]

47. He said unthinkable and refuse to consider

refuse to consider makes it sound like his mind is made up and we have Daschle's voting record in Congress as well.

[sangha]

57. Look at them spin!

"refuse to consider" shows a mind made up, but "unthinkable" is a sign of an open mind.

Yeah, right!

[Classical_Liberal]

64. It shows more gusto in my eyes

I already thought he had more gusto to defend Bush to begin with, because of his record in Congress.

[DagmarK]

51. oh, okay.........so you are saying that DUers really suck?

That we just pick and choose what we want to use and believe?

Hey, look in the mirror.....you are outing yourself.

[sangha]

59. Be honest

I didn't say "DUer's really suck"

Interpret it as "Double-standards really suck"

[ramblin_dave]

7. What Dean said

The linked article quotes Dean as saying:

"The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

This does not imply that Dean believes Bush is not lying. It's a rhetorical phrasing that makes a lie by Bush, if it is proven, to be more than just a little lie, but an unthinkable one. It causes people to think about the possibility and understand the magnitude without actually saying that Bush was lying.

[philosophie_en_rose]

129. And it's not offensive at all.

You're right ramblin_dave, but let me translate for the sarcasm impaired:

1) It is unthinkable that an American President would lie about allegedly concrete reasons to invade another country.

2) There are consequences to this country - to "our troops" - from Bush's lies.

3) Thus, it's reasonable to hope that Bush isn't really that evil, even though we all know that he is.

4) Dean is not making concessions to Bush. He is simply pointing out that Bush's actual evil is almost unimaginable.

[NJCher]

8. an aside

Try this out for logic....

This a.m. NPR interviewed two new legislators (forgot their names already) and one of them said (to this effect): "Congress wasn't fooled over bush's WMD arguments because if you argue that Congress was fooled then you are saying that bush lied."

How's that for critical thinker?

There ought to be some sort of educational test for these guys.



Cher

[DagmarK]

9. dupe

*

[DagmarK]

10. dupe

*

[DagmarK]

11. dupe.......

*

[Jack Rabbit]

31. A slight correction, ma'am

Overall, I agree with what you said. However, I will dispute this:

(Y)ou can't start the dialogue with: Bush lied, impeach him.

You're correct that Dean can't. He's running for President. For him (or any of the other candidates) to call for Bush's impeachment at this stage would be very unseemly.

However, you and I can say that. You and I can make our initial judgment (Bush lied) and appliy the rule (when the President lies about important affairs of state, such as going to war, he should be removed from office) and draw an Aristotelian conclusion (therefore, Bush should be removed from office).

It's one of the advantages of not being a candidate for President or a member of Congress.

[Paragon]

12. Agree - this is a sad post

This is the kind of out-of-context quote that would make Ann Coulter or Fox News proud...except they'd never post the link so we could read it for ourselves.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

15. The question is what standard will we hold you to?

Take a job with the NY Post if this is your standard for quoting people. You should be ashamed.

[sangha]

41. Who cares?

I don't. Think what you want about me.

So I guess you have no comments on the double-standard.

I'm not surprised.

[DagmarK]

56. We have no comment on the alleged double standard?

Your opposition in this thread refuses to take your CONCLUSION that there is a double standard happening here.

That would make us discriminating, wouldn't it?

Thereby shooting holes in your assertion that we have a double standard.

You have not had nearly enough coffee today, Sangha. You are usually soooooo much more on top of your spin.

[sangha]

65. If they disagre with my comclusion

that there is a double standard at work here, then the responses should explain why it's not a double-standard. Instead, I'm hearing a lot about partial quotes, which seems irrelevant.

[SeattleDem]

17. how about putting the whole quote in?

"The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

Sort of changes the context, doesn't it? Of course, for a normal citizen it IS unthinkable that a president would knowingly lie to us. But that doesn't mean that Dean thinks it didn't happen. Read thenext sentence - he saying it may very well have happened, it's a distinct possibility.

cherrypicking a single word out of a quote is sort of like cherrypicking the intelligence you share with the public. You have to present the whole thing - not just the words or phrases that support your argument.

[MUAD_DIB]

20. sangha

DASCHEL

"I would not be prepared to accept that any president, this president or any president, would deliberately mislead the American people on something as important as this," Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota said, reprising Democrats' calls for a more expansive investigation.

"I think before we face the real prospect of lost credibility abroad and here at home, I think it's critical that we clarify and make sure everyone understands what is fact and what is not.



DEAN

"We do not know who these senior officials are, but the president should have been given that information," Dean told a group of reporters outside a hospital in Derry, N.H. "The individuals who misled the president know who they were and they should resign immediately."

The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: "The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."


It just seems that the Senator from SD is always giving the chimp the benefit of the doubt. As I said yesterday, and I'll stick to it, it seems that Daschel goes to great lenghts to play "nice guy" when he knows that bush would do anything to remove him from his Senate seat. That's what I'm not prepared to accept.

In politics when somebody takes a swing at you then you are supposed to swing back hard ...with a 9 lb. sledge.

[sangha]

27. MUAD_DIB

I find it a bit humorous that you would complain (albeit softly) about Daschle's giving Bush* "the benefit of the doubt" because it was only a few days ago that DEAN SAID THAT!!

[MUAD_DIB]

42. Link please?

Or would you rather defer to innuendo?

Laugh all you want. It's good for you.

[sangha]

67. The links are in post#1

How is that innuendo?

[MUAD_DIB]

88. BS, Please provide the link.

[MUAD_DIB]

66. No link? Didn't think so.

Sorry to intterupt your laughter.

Have a nice afternoon.

[carolinayellowdog]

46. Both are ambiguous, but context clarifies Dean's remarks

Since I was one who jumped on the out-of-context quote by Dean, only to retract my remarks once the context was provided, you can't dismiss me as someone with a double standard. We don't know just what Daschle means by "not prepared to accept"-- not accept as fact, or not accept as acceptable? Hence I will withhold judgment, chastened by having misjudged Dean.

But when you add the historical context of who has been a Bush enabler and who hasn't, Dean deserves more benefit of the doubt than Daschle. Besides which, context makes his doubts about * veracity crystal clear, whereas Daschle's meaning is still elusive.

CYD

[LuminousX]

24. The Daschle Reaction

Was based more on his history of having his lips sewn to Bush's ass. Dean doesn't have that history, so while I will groan that Dean is insisting on giving Bush the benefit of the doubt, I'm not going to go on an anti-Dean tirade like I did over Daschle, purely based on history.

[sangha]

45. How many rw judges has Dean filibustered?

How many Republican Senators has Dean converted to Democrats?

Compared to Daschle, Dean doesn't have a record.

But I do have to commend for having the honesty in publicly condoning the double-standard

[Classical_Liberal]

53. Are you saying Dean wouldn't fillibuster?

? What is your point? You have to show Dean wouldn't do that in order to prove him inferior. Personally I think he would have fillibustered more of the right wing appointments beginning with Ashcroft.

[sangha]

69. I'm saying Dean DIDN'T filibuster

The candidates records include what they actually did and said. What Dean would have done is not a part of Deans' record. Daschle actually DID successfully filibuster rw-judges. How many rw judges has Dean stopped?

Daschle has an excellent record.

[Classical_Liberal]

75. He could have fillibustered more.

Bush also has a better record as President than all the Dem candidates, it doesn't stop me from thinking they could do betters. It isn't like a republican can be Dem leader anyway.

[Eloriel]

110. Well there's another brilliant piece of intellectual dishonesy from you

Criticize Dean for not doing things he couldn't have done anyway.

We could turn that about:

How many state's budgets has Daschle balanced?
How many judges has Daschle himself appointed?
How many millions of acres in his home state has Daschle set aside from development?
How many programs has Daschle installed in his home state which reduced child abuse by 43% ?
How much money does Daschle's home state have in suprlus right now due to his own fiscally responsible actions?

Ridiculous, sangha. Really, really ridiculous.

Eloriel

[tomp]

116. agreed.

[RetroLounge]

118. Thank you Eloriel.

for pointing out how ridiculous this thread's thesis is.

Instead of a Strawman, it's a Straw-Record.

Pathetic arguments, that...

Thanks again.

[Forkboy]

130. Hey,at least Sangha's consistant!

:D

[sangha]

123. Experience counts Eloriel

And the questions you raise are valid. But IMO there are comparable issue in Daschle's record. For example, as a Democrat member of Congress, he contributed to legislation that resulted in budget surpluses, which is even better than balancing a budget.

IOW, there are many similarities in the two positions (governor and senator) and some of things they do are analogous, if not exactly the same. However, Dean has not had the opportunity to successfully lead fifty of his fellow Democrats in a fight against the President, and the entire RNC.

[Cocoa]

60. The DU version of Daschle's "history" is just as flawed.

Most of the time it's just colorful cliches like "pink tutu" and "lips sewn to Bush's ass" with no facts at all.

Sometimes it's out of context quotes, like the most recent thread.

Occasionally it's outright lies, such as the people who claimed that Daschle blocked the Sept. 11 investigation.

Basically, the consensus has somehow been reached that Daschle is a bad guy, and so it's usually just a matter of reinforcing that myth.

Extremely ironic, imo, that Rush Limbaugh of all people feels exactly the same way, that Daschle is a bad guy.

[Classical_Liberal]

70. The fact that Limbhog demonizes Daschle only proves how

futile the nice guy strategy is. Some of the narrative against him maybe false, but there is so much there, in terms of limiting debate on different issues, that I really don't care at this point.

[Classical_Liberal]

29. Dean went on the record against the resolution

Daschle voted for it and frankly sounds more passionate on the unthinkable bit han Dean does.

[karlschneider]

37. I believe his use of "unthinkable" was a subtle way to say " horrible to

imagine but possible". I wouldn't hesitate to use it in reference to Shrub's comments about "he wouldn't let the inspectors in" by way of implying that it's difficult to imagine he would ever say something so stupid, even though I know he is prone to huge gaffes.

IOW, there's a nuance there which is a bit obscure. I'm still undecided on a candidate and I'm not dedicated to any of them, but Dean is one of my top few choices...I'm willing to consider Wes Clark as well.

[sangha]

71. I agree

but this thread isn't about the statements or Dean or Daschle. It's about how DUers reacted to them.

[tomp]

115. so what do you think daschle meant?

aside from my post below...

if this is about reactions of du'ers shouldn't we be comparing apples to apples? is that what you're saying about daschle's quote, that it was a way of expressing how horrible the situtaion is and not a real disbelief about the potential of this and other presidents?

[sangha]

125. Yes, we should compare apples to apples

That's my point. I don't like Dean. I've made that clear many times. But I'm not going to knowingly allow my distaste for the man to distort my judgements. I strive to judge everyone by the same set of standards. I don't always succeed, but I do try, and so I can't criticize what Dean said because I honestly have no problems with it. However, it seems to me that there are people who feel differently about this, and that seems to me like a double-standard.

is that what you're saying about daschle's quote, that it was a way of expressing how horrible the situtaion is and not a real disbelief about the potential of this and other presidents?

Yes, that is part of how I see these statements.

[tomp]

127. do you honestly have no problem with it...

...because you think it's true? do YOU think it's unthinkable that bush would lie, or whatever?

or do you not have a problem with it because you think it's a strategy, that neither dean nor daschle actually mean what they're saying (and, therefore, do you not have a problem with politicians not saying what they mean or meaning what they say, in general)?

for the record, i will state my opinion: i think it should be a capital offense for a politician to not mean what he/she says or say what he/she means. (obvious hyperbole for emphasis). this is because the american people need to know. there is a "secret government" right under our noses. it is the two party sytem where politicians speak in code and the rest of us are supposed to try and figure out what they really mean and no one can be sure of anything and everything gets second-guessed and nobody knows what the hell is going on. it is purposeful sowing of confusion and it's an agreement between the dems and repubs that serves them and their masters and gets us nowhere.

[tomp]

do you honestly have no problem with it...

...because you think it's true? do YOU think it's unthinkable that bush would lie, or whatever?

or do you not have a problem with it because you think it's a strategy, that neither dean nor daschle actually mean what they're saying (and, therefore, do you not have a problem with politicians not saying what they mean or meaning what they say, in general)?

for the record, i will state my opinion: i think it should be a capital offense for a politician to not mean what he/she says or say what he/she means. (obvious hyperbole for emphasis). this is because the american people need to know. there is a "secret government" right under our noses. it is the two party sytem where politicians speak in code and the rest of us are supposed to try and figure out what they really mean and no one can be sure of anything and everything gets second-guessed and nobody knows what the hell is going on. it is purposeful sowing of confusion and it's an agreement between the dems and repubs that serves them and their masters and gets us nowhere.

[tomp]

128. do you honestly have no problem with it...

...because you think it's true? do YOU think it's unthinkable that bush would lie, or whatever?

or do you not have a problem with it because you think it's a strategy, that neither dean nor daschle actually mean what they're saying (and, therefore, do you not have a problem with politicians not saying what they mean or meaning what they say, in general)?

for the record, i will state my opinion: i think it should be a capital offense for a politician to not mean what he/she says or say what he/she means. (obvious hyperbole for emphasis).

[w13rd0]

44. I defended Daschle in that thread...

...because people were misinterpreting his words, and I'll do the same here. This is just stupid. To say it is "unthinkable" that Bush lied isn't to say it is something that could not, would not, has not happened. It is to say that the concept of Bush lying to Congress, the UN and the US people is so incredible as to be "unthinkable". But the mere fact that it is mentioned means it was thought of, and that it IS 'thinkable'.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. I didn't really need that statement to oppose Daschle

I'll admit to that much. His early termination of debate on most every talking point against the republicans, and tendency to put the lid on investigations is enough for me.

[GreenArrow]

54. What do you expect?

He'll say the safe things, "mistakes were made", and so on. God help us all.

[HFishbine]

63. Simple Minds

Some people can only form an argument by failing to appreciate context or synonyms. It's rather annoying.

There are two likely possibilities in forming an opinion of Dean's comments. Either he was defending Bush or criticizing him.

Dean said:

"The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

Dean's comment that a Bush lie of this magnitude would be unthinkable, is followed by "I hope...that didn't happen." Context tells the listener that Dean allows for the possibility that it did happen. Logically, this means that Dean's use of the word "unthinkable" is therfore not synonymous with "impossible" or "beyond belief."

In the complete context, in which Dean leaves open the possibility that Bush may have lied, "unthinkable" is used to mean "extrodinary" or "undreamed of."

It's quite clear to anyone who can read with an understanding of context, and who will consider the most likely meaning of the word "unthinkable," that Dean was being critical of the possibility of a Bush lie, not defending the president.

[sangha]

74. Another double-standard

You could have defended Daschle's statements using the exact same logic, but for some odd reason, you chose not to.

[HFishbine]

89. That's so twisted!

I hereby authorize any and all who may wish to attempt to apply my logic in support of Dean's statement to apply it to Dashcle's statement.

There.

Now, since you defended Daschle's comments in yesterday's thread, where is your defense of Dean? I know it will be forthcoming because it would be unthinkable of you to have a double standard.

[sangha]

99. You want my defense of Dean's statement?

No problem. I think it was brilliant of both Dean and Daschle to portray the possibility of Bush* lying about this as unthinkable/inconceivable/beyond the pale/etc. I think it helps people understand just how dangerous it is to have the President of the United States lie to the American people *AND* the entire world. It sets them up to be outraged without appearing like political partisans. And by not "going for the jugular" at the first opportunity, they let this issue drag on and on in the news, which can only be bad for the Chimp.

[HFishbine]

101. Well

That's pretty big of you. Thanks.

[Cocoa]

I think you're the one who's misunderstanding

Would it surprise you to know that what you just wrote was the whole point of the original post?

Reread the original post, take a look at the Daschle thread, do you get it?

[HFishbine]

98. Cocoa

Hi,

No, I understood the point of the thread. Since I wasn't one who critisized Daschle in the other thread, I simply chose to respond to Shanga's misrepresentation of Dean's comments in this thread. I'm unqualified to say what those who critisized Daschle will or will not do. (The original question.)

What I chose to do though, was to make sure Shanga's misrepresentation of Dean's comments did not go unchallenged. That's allowable, isn't it? Or must we focus our discussions so narrowly as to say that they can only be directly in response to the question of the original post and that any tangential discussion, no matter how relevant, is not allowed?

[CWebster]

73. Dean's remarks opened the door to outrage

and have become progressively more strident, while Daschle's "measured tones" were in contrast to other Democrats increasingly emboldened statements.

[CMT]

76. I think you the full quote should be examined

"The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in anyhow. I hope for the sake of the country that did not happen."

A honest statement.

It is unthinkable that any president would lie to start a war--Dean didn't say it was not possible he stated that he hoped for the "sake of the country" it is not true.

He is also asking for an investigation and has not ruled out Bush resigning "we will cross that bridge when we come to it."

[sangha]

78. You're not "getting" it

It's not about whether or not those statements are good or bad. For the record, I have no problem with those statements.

It's about how some DUers react differently to similar statements. I am suggesting that it has something to do with their preferences.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. Yes it has to do with my preferences

I would prefer dems that were against the war resolution for one. They have an easier time griping about Bush than those who were for it.

[CWebster]

86. Garbage

It was a tentitive stab on Daschle's part after the cat was out of the bag. The argument could be whether Daschle's approach has always been the most effective one, and alot of that particular thread debated the merits and disadvantages of his approach, which at times as left many wanting more assured, less accomodating, even apologetic efforts in representation --considering the criminal opposition.

Dean's style is more confrontational and has consistantly been on the cutting edge of demanding accountability.

Dean claims that for a president to lie is unthinkable, Daschle is more inclined to find it unthikable that a president would lie.

;-)Like I already told ya. ;-)Did ya get it yet?

[nolabels]

97. A lot of people have got it, just when are they going to get it

This goes way beyond electioneering and candidates. I also do agree that this not the time for posturing. The time for a little statesmanship is here. Instead of offering personal surprise and ideals about what is being "above the Pale" someone should be volleying another question.

Fear of the unknown is a legitimate thing, but please don't say you don't know or can't find out. If a few DUers can find out, what is up with ALL the rest of them? I will not node my head, and say I understand. This is because I do understand that is exactly what they want and expect from us. Go along to get along does not get it for the soldiers and the people of Iraq that have died, or all the other people suffering for this. How long do we give them? Two weeks, two years, two decades? It took them two hours to find out the Niger documents were forgeries.

Is it just me? Arn't people that would steal and kill for money are called criminals and fugitives? Seems that what they put them in jail for, or least that what I have always been told. When is somebody going with some position going to step up and be responsible?

[sangha]

79. You're not "getting" it

It's not about whether or not those statements are good or bad. For the record, I have no problem with those statements.

It's about how some DUers react differently to similar statements. I am suggesting that it has something to do with their preferences.

He is also asking for an investigation and has not ruled out Bush resigning "we will cross that bridge when we come to it."

And Daschle has said THE VERY SAME THING.

But you won't mention that, now will you?

[sangha]

80. I deliberately PROVIDED NO CONTEXT

I deliberately linked to the quotes without providing them in full, and just as I suspected, some people here have gone out of their way to provide context FOR DEAN'S REMARKS, while doing nothing to provide context for Daschle's.

[Classical_Liberal]

85. Daschle voted for the resolution and limited debate on it

He has alot more proving to do than Dean.

[JustJoe]

82. Much nothing

about doo-doo.

[w4rma]

83. Yes, I fully agree that the context is very very important

...
"We do not know who these senior officials are, but the president should have been given that information," Dean told a group of reporters outside a hospital in Derry, N.H. "The individuals who misled the president know who they were and they should resign immediately."

The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: "The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

Asked whether he thought Vice President Dick Cheney should resign if he knew, Dean said, "Anybody who misled Bush should leave office, whoever that may be."

Pressed on whether Bush should resign, Dean said, "I think before we cross to that we better find out what the facts are."

But in an echo of Watergate and a Republican president who did resign, Richard M. Nixon, Dean said, "The time for stonewalling is over."
...
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/politics/2324514/detail.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=20383&mesg_id=20383&page=

Uranium and Niger: Pattern of Deceit (Timeline w/ sources)
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

...
The leader of Senate Democrats was more measured in his tone, even while alluding to the gravity of the issue.

"I would not be prepared to accept that any president, this president or any president, would deliberately mislead the American people on something as important as this," Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota said, reprising Democrats' calls for a more expansive investigation.

"I think before we face the real prospect of lost credibility abroad and here at home, I think it's critical that we clarify and make sure everyone understands what is fact and what is not."
...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030715/pl_afp/us_iraq_weapons_politics_1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=49666&mesg_id=49666&listing_type=search

[sangha]

93. Context *IS* important

and I'd like to thank you for providing context for both Dean *AND* Daschle. I've noticed that several posters have gone to lengths to provide context to Dean's remarks, while doing much less for Daschle.

Generally speaking, they are OK with Dean's remarks, but not Daschle's. I'm sure it's just coincidence.

[Eloriel]

112. I'm not okay with Dascle's remarks even IN context

I'm sick and tired of his pasty ways. We've needed so much more from our Dems in Congress and again and again and again most of them fail, fall flat on their faces, sit on their thumbs.

Daschle's in-context remarks are wimpy. Period. Dean's are muscular.

Eloriel

[Cocoa]

113. Dean's comments aren't muscular

muscular is a word better off used to describe the way George Bush talks.

Dean is better than that, he uses his brain and his heart. He's not punching anyone, he's communicating ideas.

In my opinion, Dean and Daschle are saying the same thing here. I think all the Dems are on the same page here, and that's a good thing.

The "partisan" blinders are extremely silly, considering they're on the same side.

[bitchkitty]

87. I think you're confused -

If you read Dean's entire remark, and just not a few words out of context, it's obvious what he meant, and it's nothing for him to be called to account for.

Of course, you know that now.

[sangha]

100. I think you are VERY confused

I support and agree with Dean's remark. I also support and agree with Daschle's remark. What I find curious is how some, yourself included, have worked to understand/explain/post the context behind Dean's remark, while ignoring the context behind Daschle's remark.

[Cocoa]

96. one thing I think we're missing...

Sangha correctly points out that Dean and Daschle said basically the same thing.

Aside from the issue of how DUers spin this for their own purposes, there's also the apparent coordination of the dems' message that we can all agree is a good thing.

It's not just Dean and Daschle, they all seem to be sending a message "this is serious" to counter the repulicans message "this is no big deal."

I noticed in a TV discussion with an RNC guy and a DNC guy, the RNC guy was laughing through the whole thing, he looked like an idiot but he got his message across that "it's just 16 words." The DNC guy did a very good job of staying completely serious. Of course he came off much better than the RNC idiot, since things like war and nuclear weapons are kind of serious issues.

[JNelson6563]

105. While I had nothing to say in the

Daschle thread I have to say, in a normal world, in the way things should be, it would be unthinkable for the President of the United States to tell lies to justify war. A pre-emptive war on an oil rich nation at that!! In the face of massive opposition at home and abroad. At the cost of countless lives.

I know if I were President such a thing would go in my unthinkable column. I know if I were running for President against Bush (and we all know all the relationship dynamics involved here, corporate whore press, sheeple, etc.) I too would tread warily.

I see Levin doing a similar thing. I think it is a politically strategic thing to do. None of these folks want to appear as the neo-cons themselves did. We can all easily write off so much of the Clinton "scadals" as pure hate-mongering--just Hate Clinton crap. This is not the same and it's wise to take steps to make sure that is clear.

Lastly, I sure am glad that I do not have a passionate hate for any of the Dem candidates that you seem to have.

Julie

[buddhamama]

107. takes on a whole new meaning when taken in context

at least to me. unthinkable=incomprehensible in this statement.
he's not ruling out the possiblity that Bush did lie, just that for sake of Nation he'd rather it not be so.


edit-add comment

[dpbrown]

108. Hilarious. Fat chance of that.

When Dean says it, it must mean something against Bush but when Daschle says it it must mean something for Bush.

[poskonig]

109. The difference --

TommyD, in his usual servile manner, claimed he was "not prepared to accept" that Bush lied about WMD.

Dean, kicking ass as usual, claimed Bush deliberately lying was a possibility but hoped someone else made the error for the good of the country.

I *am* holding them both to the same standard, and Daschle is the one failing miserably.

[RetroLounge]

120. Right on!

"I *am* holding them both to the same standard, and Daschle is the one failing miserably."

agreed...

[lifelong_Dem]

111. I swear...

...the amount of cognitive dissonance on this board is staggering sometimes.

If all these people spent just half as much time and energy working to defeat conservative Republicans as they do whining about and trashing Democrats, America would be the most progressive nation in the world by now.

[tomp]

114. i, for one, would be happy to oblige.

here's what i posted yesterday about daschle:

"here's what's really wrong with this: there's absolutely no reason for any person knowledgeable in american history to think this way . anyone who has actually been paying attention to american history, recent and otherwise, should know that presidents do all kinds of shit just like this. why would he not be prepared to believe it, unless he's a freakin' moron.

it is a disservice to the american people to perpetuate the myth that the american presidents are some sorts of saints, especialy in the area of foreign policy, which has been a corporate wish list for the last century. the dems are just as responsible now and earlier for all sorts of "misadventures". imperialist foreign policy is bipartisan and is totally corrupt and daschle knows it and is pretending not to." (edited for spelling and punctuation. bracketed note added)

this applies to dean's comment as well. happy now?

now i will say this: for some reason i can't quite put my finger on, the daschle comment bugged me more.

i hate political games. maybe these guys know better than me how to play political games or know the value of not being like us "internet hotheads", but i think when you look at the state of the country, you have to admit, if you're actually in touch with reality, that we might want to consider a different approach. after all, political games is exactly what got us here. political games is what keeps americans in the dark.

[sangha]

126. Thank you tomp

Though I don't agree with the way you've come to your conclusion, I found your response reasonable. It's obvious that you're trying to be as fair as possible and look at all sides fairly. You also went so far as to acknowledge the factors which have influenced your conclusions that might not be completely objective. IMO, we'd all be better off if more of us did more of that.

Once again, thank you.

[Le Taz Hot]

117. Oh, look! Another Bash Dean Thread

and this time with "selected" quotes. :eyes: My "Ignore" list is beginning to grow. Anyday now, we'll see, "While on the Campaign Trail, Howard Dean Stops to Have Lunch with his Children" turned into: "Howard Dean Eats His Children!" Nahhhh, no intellectual dishonesty there.

Edit: As Zomby would say, "needed more salt." B-)

[retread]

119. I don't know about "unthinkable". I do know * is

UNSPEAKABLE!!

[stickdog]

121. I hope this post was meant as a self-parody ...

because it is one.

[rman]

124. "I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."

The former Vermont governor, who opposed the war, added: "The only other possibility, which is unthinkable, is that the president of the United States knew himself that this was a false fact and he put it in the State of the Union anyhow. I hope for the sake of this country that did not happen."
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/politics/2324514/detail.html

the question is: Did Bush do the unthinkable or not?

you: "Dean says he thinks it's "unthinkable" that Bush lied" therefor Dean is defending Bush.

It is immediately obvious to anyone who reads the article that your summary is out of context and your interpretation is skewed.

[imhotep]

131. yes

I hold Dean to the same standard as Daschle.

[SweetZombieJesus]

133. Why do I have a hard time believing you when you say...

that the purpose of this thread was to attack the "double standard", and not implicitly link Dean, who is seen in a very favorable light around here by a lot of people, and rightly so, with Daschle, who is seen in a negative light, and to some extent, rightly so.

Did you really think we wouldn't see through such an obvious trick? Or did you expect us to give YOU the benefit of the doubt and believe that what you're really railing against is this horrible double standard, and not an underhanded smear on Dean?

Still, A for effort, even if it ended up failing miserably.

[drb]

134. He meant "f***ing reprehensible", but...

...he's being polite.