My Question: WHY Did Bush Go Around the Law?

[Stephanie]

The FISA court has a record of authorizing almost every request it receives from law enforcement (except, of course, in the case of Moussaoui). But if it is so easy to get a FISA warrant, why did the Bush administration circumvent the law? They must have had a reason. Did they think their requests would be denied by the FISA court? Doubtful. So what's the real reason?

[rustydog]

1. Because he and those he surrounded himself with

truly are incompetent. They have not had a successful prosecution of a terrorist since 9-11.
They have to circumvent the law because they have no clue how to operate within the parameters of law.

[enki23]

2. potential answers:

1. to push their new dictatorial interpretation of "executive power"
2. because they didn't want records of what they did to *EVER* make it out into the public
3. because they would have had to file so many requests that they were worried people would raise questions simply about the number
4. because they knew their requests were unjustifiable
5. because nobody, and i mean fucking NOBODY is allowed to say no to the dictator. EVER. (see 1.)

i'm going with all the above.

[Jim__]

3. They are eliminating any and all checks on the Executive.

They are proclaiming that the president's powers as CIC make him above the law. They are claiming dictatorial powers for the president.

[killbotfactory]

4. Obviously, he wasn't just spying on terrorists

[bigtree]

6. right

likely collecting cables about patriots like Joe Wilson and Cindy Sheehan.

[Horse with no Name]

5. The real reason?

Moussaoui might be another boogeyman...he is brown skinned and easy to pass off to the mindless sheeple as a terrorist.
Booga Booga!

[ThomWV]

7. Because The Patriot Act Might Not Be Reenacted

Look, before the Patriot Act if a wiretap was ordered at some point in time after the fact they had to notify the tapee. As long as there was a Patriot Act they could hide the surveillance. That makes Friday's vote in the Senate even more notable when you give it some thought.

[Individualist]

8. because he can

The cabal has gotten away with numerous crimes, and will go on committing them until Congress stops them. Whether that will happen remains to be seen.

[spanone]

9. Maybe we'll find out when Congress investigates this crime.

We'll find out what names are on the list and if they truly are connected with Al Qaeda like Condi Rice professed.

I don't think this administration gives a rat's ass about law.

[converted_democrat]

10. Because the people they wanted to spy on were not engaged in terror

activities, and they knew it. They understood that they would never get the "okay" if it was not justified, so they just went around the law.

[Ranec]

11. Maybe even the FISA courts have their limits.

If he wanted to listen in on political opponents, diplomatic traffic, or even peace workers.

In the end, it is all about whether or not there are any checks on his powers. W believes there are none, and if this country doesn't impeach him then I think he is proven right.

[Walt Starr]

12. Why? So he could spy on his political enemies

I am now thoroughly convinced he spied on the Kerry campaign.

[Stephanie]

13. They begin to conflate their enemies.

First they are spying on any terrorists who oppose the US. Soon they believe they ARE the U.S., so they believe they have the right to spy on anyone who opposes THEM. Which is what you saw in the Pentagon spying. First terrorists, soon peace activists who might hurt recruiting.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Me too!

Probably spied on Arlan Sphincter, Trent Lott and Jay Rockefeller's trash can in his office too? 10,000 covers about every one in congress and the federal court judges too? All the Generals, look how many they've fired, or forced to retire? Maybe me and you?

[serryjw]

28. I asked the same question earlier, no one responded

quote.......
I watched Condi on MTP this morning. She said nothing. It was actually funny. Has anyone heard that they have ‘specific’ information concerning an attack on our soil? We KNEW who the bad guys were before 9-11 and the administration did nothing. Now, do we know specific people are in this country planning another attack? No!! So why the spying? Why did the administration not get a Fisa warrant to eavesdrop? After P1 & P2, I’m sure the Fisa Court would have issued it>
Answer: This how this administration works. They keep pushing the envelope to see how outrageous they can be BEFORE Americans say “ Enough!” This is a ‘trial balloon’ How much will Americans tolerate in the name of terrorism and OUR safety??. Watch out! This is one more step towards Martial Law. Will Americans accept that in the name of their safety?
end quote......
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5631049

[CatholicEdHead]

14. It is the Corporate Yes Man culture

What the boss wants, the boss gets. What he says is always correct.

[Stephanie]

15. But for what purpose?

If they could just walk across the street and get their authorization from the court, why did they do this? Was it something even the FISA court wouldn't approve? They approve everything. This is the Enron Administration. They conceive of a legal defense for their criminal actions first, then they claim that they had the right to do it under their new definition.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

16. Because being a dictator is a lot easier.

Just ask him. He'll tell you!

[Rocknrule]

17. Huh? I thought he WAS the law

:sarcasm:

[Protagoras]

18. Read "The Rebirth of Classical Political Rationalism "

or any other number of works by the father of neoconservativsm, Leo Strauss http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226777154/qid=1134951834/sr=8-4/ref=pd_bbs_4/103-7202872-4473455?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

All your questions will suddenly be clarified.

[Stephanie]

22. I am familiar with Strauss

Some good articles on him are posted here >

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=110&topic_id=80&mesg_id=80

Thanks for the tip. It still doesn't make sense to me. Why break the law when you can get what you want within the law? The courts were at their service.

[blm]

19. Force of habit.

.

[AnnInLa]

21. FISA couldn't and wouldn't approve of spying/listening

to American citizens who obviously were not terrorists or obviously were not involved in terrorist-related activities. There will never be a way that we can know exactly who was listened to, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that political opponents and peace-niks were on the list.

God, I feel like I'm in Stalinist Russia.

[Stephanie]

23. It was just a big deal right after 9/11

One of the major points was that the FISA court had approved every single request for a warrant EXCEPT for the Moussoui one. Why was that the exception? And they tried to blame on that 9/11 commission member - Jamie? - because under Clinton she had tightened up the requirements.

[Cleita]

24. That's what criminals do.

If the law gets in their way, they go around it, ignore it or defy it, but they don't obey it. It's the ends justifies the means mentality. Oh, also, try not to get caught, but if you do lie about it.

[Stephanie]

25. But why was the law in the way?

They could have made their requests to the court and no doubt they would have been approved without delay. If, as they say, they wanted to eavesdrop on terrorists.

[Cleita]

26. Perhaps they don't feel they need to even pretend anymore.

IMO.

[NightOwwl]

27. So he could spy on Cindy Sheehan, Micheal Moore...

and other perceived threats to his presidency.

[Wordie]

29. In another thread, I noticed another post that suggests it *was* legal.

Here it is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1994959&mesg_id=1995014

I'm afraid I haven't followed all this closely enough to be able to evaluate all these contradictory opinions on this issue. If it was legal, it shouldn't be and something must be done about it. (Thank god for the vote against cloture - I hope that will help.)

If somebody has more info on all this, and can explain all the ins and outs, I'd sure appreciate hearing about it.