I Don't Believe "Ex-Gays" Exist

[ruggerson]

I think tortured, self hating, weak people, who have internalized society's homophobia, willingly find any one of a number of religious cults who are more than eager to help brainwash them into thinking that if they "embrace Jesus," they can somehow "change" their innate sexual orientation.

I feel badly for these souls, because the dynamic only works when someone is full of real despair and self loathing. They then proceed to substitute that self loathing with an emotional crutch: the hopeful, fervent belief that the supernatural will magically alter to whom they are attracted.

These folks would only be objects of pity were it not for the fact that the fundamentalist community often then props them up and displays them as anti-gay political publicity props.

The "ex-gay" then proceeds, marionette-like, to spout all the lies of the fundamentalist political agenda. With the added component of supposed authenticity. He has "lived the lifestyle", after all. Therefore he knows what evils lurk within.

The fact that some of these fundamentalists and fundamentalist groups have their grips on gay kids is an ongoing American tragedy.

What do YOU think?

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Whenever someone brings up an "ex-gay"

I always ask: how do you know you were really gay in the first place? How do you know you weren't curious or bi-sexual?

[jonnyblitz]

2. I competely agree with EVERYTHING you said.

very articulate post. :thumbsup:

[ThingsGottaChange]

3. You definitely nailed it

But, sadly, way deep down inside themselves the know they are living a lie. They will never admit it, of course. Gawd wouldn't like that. So, they spend all their lives with that inner torment. And for what???

[tanyev]

4. I think it's telling that so many "ex-gays" choose to speak about

it publicly, under the guise of helping others, but it also allows them to relive the experiences over and over again.

[donco6]

11. My "ex-gay" group was downright salacious in that respect.

There were times when it turned into a porno confession party. "Well, I have to confess, last week when I was at work, this really cute guy came in the store, and the next thing you know I was doing him in the basement!" (titter, titter, blush).

Gack.

[jonnyblitz]

14. I can't imagine what it was like for you.

I remember seeing a movie awhile back called "One Nation Under God" about two guys who founded Exodus International who ended up becoming lovers and leaving and denouncing it!

[donco6]

17. Ha! Good story about that.

When I was first admitting to myself that I was gay and I was still a Christian (though not as fundamentalist as I eventually became), I wrote a letter to one of those guys at Exodus. I really poured my heart and soul into that letter - you can imagine, I'd never told a soul before. I sent it away and waited for a reply. No response. Months later, someone wrote and gave me some info on Exodus, but it wasn't the guy I wrote to. Found out after that that he'd left just as my letter went out. Probably sat in his inbox while he was - well - out.

[Ilsa]

15. That sounds very reasonable.

I think you may be onto something there.

I have doubts about most ex-gays. I think a true ex is a rare thing indeed.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. I agree, but sometimes people change

If a man who has been gay actually finds a woman he loves or is attracted to (it happens), we shouldn't smear him with a stereotype of "self-hating, cowardly" "ex-gays." But that's a totally different story from what you're talking about.

[ruggerson]

6. If he finds a woman he is attracted to

he was never gay to begin with. He was bisexual.

[Jed Dilligan]

7. Fair enough

But generally people use behavior to label people; if he never had sex with a woman and had sex with many men, most people would call him "gay." (Even if he claimed to like women too.)

[ruggerson]

9. Very true

and the religious rightwingers use that tactic in their assault on gays, by assigning everything to "behavior." As if, what we DO will somehow obliterate who we ARE.

If a left handed person willed themselves to try and do everything with their right hand for a solid year, would that make them right handed?

Or would they still be a left handed person using their right hand?

[donco6]

10. It's not about the sex, really.

Even if I stop having sex completely, I will still be gay. That's a common misperception spread by some fundamentalist churches. They say that if you're not "engaged in the lifestyle", that is evidence you've changed your orientation. But it's completely wrong.

I am gay because I cannot "fall in love" with a woman. Period. I like them. I have many who are close friends. But I could not love them like a straight man loves a woman, or like I love my husband. It's just not in me. Never has been.

Now logically, I cannot assert that I could never change - it's not a defensible position. But then I cannot say a meteor won't fall and hit me on the head, either. Both are about as likely as the other.

[Jed Dilligan]

13. I have stopped having sex for long periods of time

and--boy oh boy--did I not stop being "straight." In fact, I don't think I was ever "straighter." ;)

[donco6]

19. Ha! I know EXACTLY what you mean.

My husband is in Mexico on vacation (I'm joining him tomorrow). And I've never felt "gayer."

:)

[Ilsa]

16. Exactly. There is celibacy, but that doesn't mean a

person's sexual orientation has changed.

[FreedomAngel82]

75. Good points to bring up

I know many who thing being gay is just about sex. It isn't. It's about who you have feelings for. I like men and am straight. Sex to me is about an action of love.

[donco6]

8. I can personally attest to every thing you said.

I spent a lot of years in fundie churches and 5 years in an "ex-gay" group. See DU thread below:

http://tinyurl.com/7872l

It took five years to realize it, but after having been fed fundie bullshit for 10 years before THAT, it was not easy to abandon it. Remember, these people are telling you that a) you're only gay because you chose it (never mind that you can't remember when), because God wouldn't make you this way, b) gay relationships are phony and false and will never fulfill you like a straight relationship will (ergo, the comments about Brokeback Mountain in the above thread), and c) if you live as a gay man or woman you're going straight to hell to burn in fire for all eternity (for that last ditch effort at keeping guys from following their natural, human urges.)

One thing I can say for myself, I never allowed myself to become some mouthpiece for the group. If I had seen even ONE person change from gay to straight, it might have kept me going, but not only did that NOT happen, I didn't see the SLIGHTEST inkling that anyone had changed in any way. Even the guys who got married just changed their outward situation. Inside, they still loved other guys. I met with one guy for YEARS who was married and who had this terrible crush on me! It never changed a drop!

And besides, I don't care if I COULD change - I don't want to. I shouldn't have to. I like my life. I love my husband more than anything. I adore him, really. I can't imagine why anyone would want to give this up for some silly pipe dream.

[jarab]

12. "Innate sexual orientation"....

I have an acquaintance (female) who was married a couple times with (now) teenage kids.
For the past five years or so, she's been in several lesbian relationships - and no males, or so it seems.

What is her "innate sexual orientation"? Was she a suppressed homosexual for all those first thirty years in male relationships, and she's now found her true self?
If that be true, then the opposite could seem to work also. An "outwardly" gay person could later on find his/her "innate sexual orientation" to have been a (suppressed) hetero.
Or does this "innateness" work only one way ?

Just rationalizing. I don't have an answer.

...O...

[donco6]

20. You know, I really think women are just more different . . .

. . . than we men realize.

For the gay men I've known, I honestly have never met any who - even while married - were not gay. Never.

Women - I've known several who would tell you they were happily straight until some point in their lives and then they just weren't anymore.

I don't get it either, but then I'm a man. Perhaps a woman could weigh in on this. Maybe I'm just full of crap.

[liontamer]

29. i think women tend to make a lot of nonsexual feelings sexual

It's the corrollary of women being taught to not be so sexual. Women spend a lot of time denying their physical attractions. When women do become sexually active they tend to treat sex as just another way to show affection. I know plenty of straight women who have sex with men they're not really attracted to just because the guy was nice, or they had a lot in common with him etc. Since women are taught to deny their sexual needs, some women never really notice that they have them, so their sexual relationships end up not based on physical desire. Then when they do meet someone they're really physically attracted to, all hell breaks lose, metaphorically. And when that person is of the same gender, they suddenly realize, oh wait, I'm gay.

That's my theory anyway.

[donco6]

33. That makes a lot of sense.

Thanks. I needed that perspective. The pieces fit very well along those lines.

[misanthrope]

35. DING! And we have a winner!...

...I've entertained that for years after hearing it postulated and expounded upon by a friend who is one of the most astute observers of human behavior that I've ever known. I think you're/he's/we're right in that regard. The head trip that our society pulls on women in regards to sex creates a lot of problems down the road.

Of course, the most curious part is that, anthropologically, women are the social masters and manipulators among our species.

[ruggerson]

38. interesting thought

I'd always thought women were just more fluid sexually, but I think your notion makes sense. Repression really does a number on everyone, doesn't it.

[eridani]

36. What if having ANY sort of sexual orientation--

--is a male secondary sex characteristic, something that men tend to have and women not to have? In the real world, there will be lots of overlap, just as there is for height, where some women are taller than most men, and some men shorter than most women.

Maybe sexual orientation is engraved in stone for some people, and in silly putty for others.

How else would you explain the 70s, where huge numbers of women just decided that they'd try being lesbians? Some stayed with it, others noticed that relationships with women were no escape from the kind of personal hassles that go along with all relationships. Can't imagine anything similar ever happening for men.

[liontamer]

43. i think most gender differences are a result of socialization

"How else would you explain the 70s, where huge numbers of women just decided that they'd try being lesbians? Some stayed with it, others noticed that relationships with women were no escape from the kind of personal hassles that go along with all relationships. Can't imagine anything similar ever happening for men."

I'd explain it by saying that women sleep with people for lots of reasons, and straight men don't face the same pressures.

[UncleSepp]

44. A year ago, I would have tried to answer to that

Now, I know I don't have any more of a clue about women than anyone else. :-D

I have heard from transmen who start testosterone and find their sexual orientation changing. It's not that uncommon for an attraction to women to develop that wasn't there before, or to men that wasn't there before. As the hormones start to work their magic, it can affect attraction. Maybe as women's hormones change over the course of their lives, their orientation can change.

[mondo joe]

64. I think there are straght mem, gay men and there are women.

And women are just more fluid OVERALL than men.

I recall studies in which men's orientation couldbe charted on a J graph, but women were on a U graph.

[insane_cratic_gal]

18. You mean the stepford "wives"

Or men reprogrammed by the church to deny who they are. To live their lives in agony?

Don't wing-nuts believe, to even think the sin is just as bad as committing the sin?

Your sexual preference isn't a thing that can be denied. If chocolate is your weakness you don't just decide to indulge licorice, to fill the void. It never will fill it, only keep you feeling denied and unsatisfied.
If the wives and husbands are ok with denying who they are and what they want. Living a lie which is just as evil as living the sin, all I can do is feel sorry for them.

[donco6]

22. Interesting question.

"Don't wing-nuts believe, to even think the sin is just as bad as committing the sin?"

Fundamentalists are in a quandary about this very question. On the one hand, Jesus says that to lust in one's heart is the same as committing the sin of adultery. But the ex-gay movement DEPENDS on defining gay SEX as the sin, not gay THOUGHTS. They could never claim anyone as having been changed if they have to rid themselves of gay THOUGHTS as well as actions. And they MUST claim people as having been changed or their whole reparative therapy philosophy flies out the window for lack of evidence.

Tis a puzzlement.

[insane_cratic_gal]

28. you have my admiration

for being true to who you are, and choosing the chocolate over the licorice! (btw we are glad you are who you are and not a stepford!)

I'm not an overtly religious person(I've come to despise organized religion), but I've always been taught a "liberal" version of God, that is: The truth, in all forms is more pure then the sin of a lie. If your lying beside your wife and your wondering what her thong would look like on Val Kilmer, I'd call that a lust in your heart.

[ruggerson]

30. Exactly

plus I doubt part of God's plan is for women (or men) to suffer the lifelong pain of a partner that does not physically desire them.

[dsc]

21. To my shame I strongly considered reparative therapy

I was a sophomore in college and had set up to spend my summer in one of those places buy my parents insurance wouldn't cover it. They used the term quackery. I was royally pissed at the time, but am very glad now.

[ruggerson]

23. Congrats for coming through the fire

relatively unscathed

[dsc]

26. thanks

One of the few times an insurance company's parsimony was a good thing.

[donco6]

24. Lucky You!

You just don't know what you missed! Long days of bible study and verse memorization, hours of "quiet time" reading assigned passages, early morning prayer, almost all of this in solitude.

You know, if you'd have become a monk, at least they'd have paid your way for you!

[dsc]

27. actually I think it would have also had aversion therapy

I feel so bad for you to have gotten involved with them. I can't imagine doing nothing but dealing with that shit 24/7.

[donco6]

32. Though it didn't do a thing for my being gay,

it wasn't that bad. I got a lot of reading done.

But I didn't have aversion therapy. I hate shocks!

[Deja Q]

25. What homophobia? I can't even get a man!

You bet I'd date a woman, you have no clue how horrible solitude is.

And, yeah, I started thinking more about this concept about a week ago.

Not that it'd make a difference, I already know what the problem is: Me being an emotional cripple.

Other people can live how they want; at least they're able to live.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

34. "Being bi-sexual doubles your chance of a date on Saturday night."

-Woody Allen

[liontamer]

31. I don't think you can change who you're physically attracted to

but you can choose to repress sexual desire. Especially if you want something else badly enough (such as social acceptance). A lot of people lead unhappy lives because they give up a core part of themselves to make the rest of their lives run more smoothly.

"ex gays" just seem sadder because they've given up such an important source of happiness by denying themselves a truly compatible sexual partner

[Clarkansas]

37. David Cross played a "ex gay" on a Mr. Show skit

who kept "relapsing." From some reason I thought of that when I read the thread title.

Anyway, I agree with everything you said.

[izzybeans]

70. The transcript for that bit is about half way down inside the link.

Drop dead funny.

http://www.batmanthehorse.com/mrshow/1_2.html


Here's some snips:Good News*

Cast-

Bob- Dr. Rudy Moore, the host of Good News, he wears a suit, tie, and a blond wig
David- Burton Quimm, the founder of Overcome, he wears a brown wig.
Jill- Penny
<"Good News" title screen is on the screen for a few seconds, then it fades into Bob and Jill, who are on a talk show set with two chairs. Bob is seated on the left, and the Jill is seated on the right>

Bob: Well thank you for joining us today Penny, and I'll see you at the Dallas Joy-athon. And thank you for tuning in to Good News today. You know, if you watch us tomorrow we'll be visiting with Burton Quimm, the leader of Overcome, an organization that helps men and women renounce the sin of homosexuality. If you remember, Burton was first with us in 1982 as a college student when he founded Overcome.



David: Part of the gay conspiracy is recruitment, active recruitment on campus. They tell people it's all right to be a homosexual, and I stupidly got caught up in their propaganda and now I know that I was just a confused heterosexual, and I'm really who God wants me to be.



-snip-





Bob: And we'll reminisce about his glorious return to the fold, at overcome.

David: I thought I was happy but I was miserable, and now I have a wife.

Bob: Let's see.



David: And that's me and that's her.



David: And we're working on a family now. Really are, very hard, working very hard, and this is the real me you're looking at.



Bob: And that's Good News.

David: And I just want to help others.

-snip-

David: It is an aberration, believe me, its not normal, you're making a choice.

Bob: Tell them.

David: You're making a choice. A terrible, terrible choice. We're here for you: Overcome.



Bob: Burton will tell us about his most recent lapse, and the one he has planned for August, which should take him to Rio De Janeiro. It'll be a glorifying hour of witness, I hope you'll join us. I'm Dr. Rudy Moore, now stay tuned for "The Bible Machine."

[Quixote1818]

39. It's possible that sexual orientation can change with age and other

factors. I would suggest if it does change it's more of a chemical thing due to diet and changing hormones. I am straight guy but my taste in women has changed since I was young. I have gone through several phases, blonds were it at one point then it was brunettes then Black women then hispanic's then back to blonds.

I suspect that if someone is bi-sexual their preference can change back and fourth from male to female. Perhaps a bi-sexual man will fall in love with a woman because she is his soul mate?

Their are all kinds of factors and just because someone was once gay and then started feeling attracted to women doesn't mean he wasn't gay at the time he was attracted to men or at least bi-sexual. It's not a disease, it's a chemical thing in my opinion.

The OP's theory is certainly very relevant as well, depending upon the case. The bottom line is just because a guy says he isn't gay anymore doesn't mean he has all the answers for everyone else. No one can speak for everyone else.

[Fleshdancer]

40. I think heterosexuals and homosexuals are both guilty of one thing...

the suppression of legitimate bisexual tendencies.

[Yollam]

85. When I used to hang around more gay guys...

... a lot of them would act all grossed out by the idea of a woman's genitals, screaming about "tuna fish" or whatever as though it was this disgusting thing. From my experiences with women, I never had felt that way, and in fact liked very much to go down on a woman.

I kinda felt like they were trying to convince themselves that it was gross, the same way straight men try to reassure each other about how gross sex with a guy would be.

I personally am grossed out by anal sex, but it's not gender-specific. I just don't like it period. Other than that, everything else, either gender seems sexy to me...

[LostInAnomie]

41. I read an article on Exodus' "success" stories once.

Their methodology is VERY suspect. First of all they count success as meaning that the individual does not take part in homosexual sex. The individual can lust after the same sex and even masturbate while envisioning other members of the same sex but as long as they don't have sex they are considered straight.

Second, they include bi-bisexuals in their success stories.

Third, they use strong peer pressure tactics to keep peers in line. This means that the members may be actively homosexual but are afraid to admit it to the group.

Even with all these problems Exodus still only has around a 3% "success" rate.

[mondo joe]

95. Don't forget, the founders - who were 2 "successes" - ended up

lovers after leaving their wives and exodus.

[kansasblue]

42. I think too many people project there own feeling on others...

If there are people that say they were gay and now they aren't then I have no reason to doubt them. Lots of people come out late in life and Kinsey noted that people just fell sprinkled between gay and straight. Sexuality could be fluid in some, preferences change. I don't believe there are very many people like this. But I believe there are some.

[WernhamHogg]

45. I don't

I find it very difficult to believe the people who claim that they are "ex-gays", mostly because when they speak, it seems like they are trying harder to convince *themselves* that that they are an "ex-gay" rather than trying to convince anyone else.

I do happen to believe the theory that there are people born gay and there are people who are born straight and then there is a huge grey area in between that a LOT of people fall into. However, I think that is a completely different discussion than whether or not "ex-gays" exist.

[NuttyFluffers]

46. y'know, there's like more (debatable) evidence for UFOs, fairies, etc...

than there is for ex-gays. isn't like the recitivism rate like within spitting difference from 100%? at least a few "makes you go 'hmm?'" photos, stories, objects, etc. exist to be debated about all that other phenomena. the best we get from ex-gays is either outright recitivism or back alley cruising circuits hearsay, or one of like a handful of positively deafening gaydar examples with a really spooky zombie-brainwashed glassy-eyed stares.

nah, i'd save my belief for things that actually have a greater chance of existing, like: the yeti, loch ness, intelligent life outside of earth, cthulhu...

[Yollam]

47. True up to a point.

People are either gay, straight, transexual or bisexual.

This orientation generally does not change throughout one's life.

People who are gay but try to be straight, especially in order to please a disapproving family or an angry "god", are still gay, they're just repressing and/or pretending. Some can cope and function for a lifetime in this manner, but the majority create a house of cards that ends with infidelity, broken families, etc.

There are, however, men and women who are truly bisexual, who explore those avenues during the dating stages of their lives, but then decide to settle down with a person of one gender or the other at another stage in life, since promiscuity and/or polygamy is not for everyone. Those who settle with a person of the same sex are usually called gay, and go along with it because it's just easier than making a fuss about it, and the same goes for those of us who settled with a person of the opposite sex. Unlike the "ex-gay" who feels that his/her experiences with the same sex are something negative to be ashamed of, the bisexual thinks of them as merely dating experiences, without regret or shame, even though he/she is now exclusively committed to an opposite-sex partner, and is generally seen as "straight" by peers who don't know their history.

I only bring this up because it is important that bisexuals, who DO exist and ARE faced with a choice if they want to be monogamous, should not be denigrated as phonies etc. along with the "ex-gay" crowd if they experiment with the same sex, but eventually end up in an opposite-sex marriage.


The most important thing is to try to be true to yourself and choose a partner that you love and feel attracted to, and not be swayed by religion, which is open to interpretation, family, who have no right dictating your choice of a mate, and society, which is full of shit to begin with.

At least that's my take on it.

[Maru Kitteh]

48. Neither do I

I'm a church-going hetero mom who completely understands that whoever you are is just who you are. I don't beleive that crap either.

They're trying to make it something to overcome - like gambling or beating your wife.

God made you. God does not make junk. God knows a good heart. God is LOVE.

[Fescue4u]

49. Why not? There are certainly ex-straigts.

People change all the time.

[LostinVA]

54. There are no "ex-straights"

They were either gay or bisexual to begin with.

I work with two different who, when I meant them years ago, I was like "gay"! Then I found out they were married, with kids. I was like, whatever... sure. Guess what? Both of them are divorced and dating women now, and have told everyone that they've known for years they liked women "that way," but thought it was a sin, so they didn't do anything about it.

Oi.

[Fescue4u]

61. SO people cant change?

interesting...and sad.

[mondo joe]

63. Why is it sad? I can't be 6 feet tall one day and 5 feet tall the next.

I can't be Italian one day and Japanese the next.

Do those things make you sad?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

71. WTF are you talking about, equating being gay with criminals?

[Fescue4u]

72. Of course not. don't be obtuse

Im talking about a human being making a change in themselves.

You clearly know that.


(unless you believe the previous poster was equating shrinking in stature to being gay)

[LostinVA]

76. I'm not being obtuse -- you are being disingenuous

Equating changing being gay being equal with changing criminal behavior. There are hundreds of other analogies you could have used, but you choose those. And, throwing in the "immaturity" jibe just to be even more "clever." I know exactly what your point was.

[Fescue4u]

78. Im not being disingeous, your being obtuse.

But in fairness I didnt mean to hurt your feelings, so I'll redact that particular sentence.

[LostinVA]

82. You didn't "hurt my feelings"

I'm tired of the homophobia on DU, that's all. Especially homophobia trying to be disingenuous.

And, no... I am not being obtuse.

[Fescue4u]

84. no itts ok. I apologize for being insensitive to you

[mondo joe]

79. My sexual orientation is as innate as my height.

So is my right handedness.

I can't change any of those things.

[Fescue4u]

81. congratulations

But I imagine that its difficult getting through life when you are as tall as a newborn infant.

[LostinVA]

83. Again, you're being disingenuous

But, I'm, putting you on ignore, because I really am tired of your calling gays immature and criminals, and very heavily implying that if you grow up you can change.

[Fescue4u]

86. If that the way you want to lose the argument

If thats they way you want to lose the arugment thats fine with me.

I respect you that you have to courage to run and hide when you are losing.


But the point is that people do change. Even things that are inate as height as sexual orientatation.

[mondo joe]

88. I don't know why you'd be so invested in considering orientation

something so fickle.

But I, and others, can testify as to just how wrong you are.

[Fescue4u]

92. No its not fickle. I don't believe that at all

But I do believe that like many human characteristics, its subject to evolve and change over ones life.

In some, actually in most it does change dramatically, but there is no evidence to suggest that this one and only human characteristic is the only one etched in stone.

[mondo joe]

94. Who said only this one characteristic is "etched in stone"?

Handedness is innate. So is orientation. So is a lot of who we are.

If you don't like who you are, I can see being sad about inability to change it.

[Enraged_Ape]

99. Many human characteristics are "etched in stone"

Try changing your eye color, your hair color, your handedness (many have tried, with little success), or your propensity towards having diabetes or asthma. I could go on all day with this, really.

[Fescue4u]

102. Many is not equal to all

And even characteristics that are etched in stone are subject to evolve. I know several women who's hair color has changed during their youth. They didnt choose it to change, it just did. (not to mention natural greying btw)

A quick google indicates that even eye color changes in about 10% of adults
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a971205.html

[mondo joe]

104. You go from just one to all???? I didn't say JUST ONE was fixed

and no one said ALL are fixed.

Your army of Straw Men is not impressive.

[Fescue4u]

108. You will submit to my army of Straw Men :)

:)

Straw man Army. Kudos. I like that.

My post wasnt exactly clear.

What I was trying convey was that just because "many" traits are wholly fixed, that doesnt mean they all are. An example of fixed trait would be blood type. I gave a number of examples of non fixed traits (eye color, hair color) which most folks think are fixed. Im submitting that sexual orientation isnt as fixed as you suggest. (nor do I believe it is as mutable as many of the righties pretend it is either). Im submitting that it can and does evolve.

[mondo joe]

87. I don't know why you think height means infant sized.

But that's okay - if you want to play around instead of having a sincere discourse.

Your time to waste.

[Fescue4u]

90. Height is how tall you are

If one never changes his height, then you would be the height of an infant no?

Or does this "inate" characteric of heigh actually change over the years?

I believe it does.

[mondo joe]

91. Or height, in this context, is your genetic predisposition.

And that never changes.

[Fescue4u]

96. OK, I'll go along with that

But I submit that genetic predisposition is just that, a predisposition.

Actual growth of ones body is still subject outside factors such as diet and exposure to contaiminates.

And I submit that sexual orientation is the same. You have a genetic predisposition, but it is still subject to outside influences. Genenetics may also dictate how your orientation evolves, and possibily if it were to change.

My main point is really really simple. Humans change all the time, and sexual orientation is no less subject to change or evolve as any other trait.

Frankly, Im really suprised how much this idea has rankled some folks.

[mondo joe]

97. Then I'd suggest you have not considered the impact on the

lives of people who have tried - very painfully - to change their orientation and know it is not possible.

But when you start comparing orientation to criminal behavior, you establish early on a remarkable lack of thoughtfulness.

[Fescue4u]

100. I imagine that this is absoluty true

As I said, I don't think it is a fickle characteristic.

Im quite sure that many folks have suffered underservedly while trying to change their orientation. Yet at the same time, there are folks who have claimed success. Are they being dishonest? Im sure that some are. But at the same time its seems unlikely to have a 100% failure rate.

Even if voluntarily changing ones orientation is 100% prone to failure, that doesnt mean that one doesnt change involuntarily. Men and Women have been known to develop an interest in the same sex and/or lose interest in the opposite sex as they grow older. Why is such an idea so vehemently opposed?

[mondo joe]

101. To determine if those who claim to change are being honest,

I suggest we treat it as we would any other claim.

This pill cures the cold? Let's study it and see.

And I'd submit to you that what you'd find when these things are studied is that it is as true as claims about pills that cure the cold. It doesn't happen.

I would further submit that men and women are different with regard to orientation, as a number of studies indicate, and women tend to be more fluid in their orientation. But even among those women who ARE more fluid, their orientation isn't changing, even though their partners might.

Why are claims to the contrary opposed? Because they're inaccurate.

[Fescue4u]

103. Mondo, I think we've reached a point where we just disagree

Im not going to hang my on the "go straight" camps as I do find those suspect, and I respect your views on those.

However I maintain that many innate human characteristics such as sexual orientatation, eye color, height, and hair color ARE subject to evolve over ones life.

I know that you disagree, and thats ok.

[Fescue4u]

89. Its sad if people cannot change

I believe that all humans have the capacity to change.

If not, then we are all resigned to a fate.

[mondo joe]

93. Really? i never feel sad about being who I am.

I never feel bad that my eyes don't change color.

I never feel bad that I'm always male.

I never feel bad that I'm right handed, or gay.

I don't think there's anything there to be sad about.

[ruggerson]

55. Really?

Show us someone who is an "ex straight". Not someone who was PRETENDING do be straight and then came out of the closet, but someone who was fully heterosexual and then "decided" to become gay, even though they weren't attracted to members of their own sex. Bisexual don't count either.

[LostinVA]

57. Yup... you can't find them... they don't exist

[Fescue4u]

62. Bob Goddard

Not his real name (not fair to post his real name in public), but the brother of a friend of mine.

[ruggerson]

106. Ask "Bob Goddard" (If he really exists)

whether or not he miraculously developed an attraction to men later in life or whether he finds he was merely repressing an innate one for many years.

You will find his answer (if he is self aware) is B, not A.

[Fescue4u]

107. I will.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

68. Obviously, that's impossible.

One can never be sure that someone wasn't gay/bisexual all along and either didn't know or didn't acknowledge it.

There are, however, people who come out as gay after having been married, often happily married, to members of the other sex for long periods of time. I think it's more likely than not that in at least some of those cases it's a matter of newly-emerging feelings than of pre-existing ones being acknowledged (although it's not a certainy - to my knowledge no reliable psychologal study has been performed, and in the current politically-charged climate the results of any such study would be impossible to trust).

[MadHound]

50. Maybe, maybe not, we're working with some pretty fluid definitions here

What do you call a man who has married, had kids, and then ten years later decides that he is gay? Is he an ex-straight? Then yes, there can be ex-gays.

Or the woman that I knew who had a lesbian relationship for years, and then decided to break it off and get married when she found a guy she loved? What is she, ex-gay, bi, what?

I think human sexuality has many many permutations and degrees. It has been shown that peoples' sexuality is on a scale ranging from complete hetrosexual to complete homosexual, and that people have some point that they find comfortable on that continuim. Perhaps the fundy ex-gays on "Straight Talk" are denying their own sexuality out of a fear of their religion, or due to the fact that they're getting paid big bucks to play the hetro. Or perhaps they're really bi, and honestly found each other attractive, thus having a hetrosexual relationship and being able to cash in on it.

People's experiences, feelings, emotions are too vast to confine within narrow definitions of hetro, homo, bi, etc.etc. And that is part of the joy and facsination of being human.

But for these "ex-gays" to be pushing their own personal lifestyle choice down peoples' throats is wrong. Human sexuality is to vast for a one size fits all solution, and trying to force one on people usually only results in disaster.

[ruggerson]

56. But they call themselves "ex-gay" not "ex-bi"

"What do you call a man who has married, had kids, and then ten years later decides that he is gay? Is he an ex-straight? Then yes, there can be ex-gays."

-----------------------------

I call him a repressed homosexual or bisexual. He was never "straight." Certain parts of society's hatred and bigotry towards gays and lesbians is so vicious and pervasive that gay people without strong egos lead lives that are not the lives that they would naturally lead otherwise. It depends on the family you grow up in, what part of the country you grow up in, etc. Many people have internalized society's homophobia to the extent where they repress their homosexuality and do not acknowledge it until they are 30 or 40.

[MadHound]

58. Yes, you are correct, to a certain extent

However I've known a few strong willed gays, never had a straight sexual experience, raised within a loving and supportive family, and who could give a fuck-all about what society thought that reached their middle age, thirties and forties and decided to get married, to a woman, settle down and have kids. And absolutely love it, both the physical aspects of their relationship and the emotional part as well.

Then there are cases of situational homosexuality, where a normally straight man, due to circumstances like war or prison, engages in homosexuality, and then reverts to being straight when allowed back into a wider world.

There are also those people who do lots of experimenting on both sides of the sexual border. This is becoming increasingly common among college people. I've known several young women who had intense, satisfying lesbian relationships throughout their college years, but were married, with kids and no regrets by their late twenties. And then there are those poor souls who experienced sexual abuse at the hands of a member of the opposite sex when they were children. I've known a few of those who dealt exclusively in same sex relationships until well into their thirties simply because the trauma experienced as a child prevented them from having a loving relationship with a member of the opposite sex. After much therapy and many years they were indeed able to have such a relationship however, and were quite happy. How do you classify them?

A person's sexuality is not a cut and dried deal. All sorts of factors play into it, and to assume that somebody who is ex-gay is either faking it, repressing it, or what have you is simply wrong. Perhaps that person is actually in that state because they honestly want to be there. However like I said previously, people like the ones mentioned in the OP shouldn't be pushing their BS off on other people. What works for one person simply doesn't work for another because our backgrounds and upbringing are quite different.

Like I said earlier, human sexuality is a continuim between two poles, and we all lie somewhere in between. It also means that we can go from one place to another on that continuim due to personal, societal, or other factors. And that all of our labels are in reality pretty much meaningless.

[mondo joe]

65. But situational homosexual acts are not about orientation.

And per studies I've looked at, even men who profess to be bisexual do have a preference (orientation) even if they are more open to diverse acts.

Women, however, are another story.

[AndreaCG]

51. I think it is possible

that a few genuinely fall for someone of the opposite sex, but that would probably make them bisexual.

[terrya]

52. I think you have it spot on. You are exactly right.

In fact, I just recommended your excellent post. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you. :thumbsup:

[The Straight Story]

53. Are some people ex-straight? (nt)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. Yes, definately.

IIRC, Bishop Gene Robinson, the man at the centre of the current Anglican crisis, was married (and I think happily married, according to the media) to a woman for over a decade.

People change. I would be very surprised if there weren't people whose sexual orientation has changed from any position you care to name (straight, gay, bisexual, asexual etc), either actively or latently, to any other from that list.

On the other hand, I doubt it's a terribly common occurence in any direction. What is probably much more common is people acknowledging latent feelings they have previously suppressed. This will usually be ostensibly straight people coming out as gay, I suspect, given the strength of the pressure not to be gay, but I would guess the reverse sometimes happens as well.

[LostinVA]

69. That doesn't make them ex-straight!

You can be married -- even happily -- and still be gay or bi. I dated guys for a long time, because there was NO way someone like me could be gay -- only pervs and trashy people were. So, I just ignored/repressed those thoughts and feelings for a decade.

They are either gay or bi. You can't change your sexual orientation like you can your hair color.

[mondo joe]

80. To the contrary - when he was in seminary he tried conversion

therapy to "rid himself" of homosexuality.

He was a gay man trying to be a straight man - but he was always gay.

[holdensphonies]

59. Church going gays

Go to church and you will find a lot of "ex gays."

[wixomblues]

60. I think everyone is a little gay.

It's just a side or facet of the personality that isn't nurtured, and is instead feared. Besides, sex is enhanced greatly by an emotional connection. So, the physical appearance of someone, and maybe even their sex, is lost after a while. So, to call someone an ex gay or an ex straight doesn't really mean that much. It might make them feel better, but it is meaningless. I believe environment plays a huge role in sexuality, but not in the traditional way. The more a society fears and condemn homosexuality, the less open instances, and actual homosexuals, will occur. People will gravitate towards what is easy, and what is "normal". However, if you look at some ancient societies, and rulers(Alexander The Great) homosexuality was the norm, more or less.

Anyway, that's all. We're all a little gay, for the right amount of inducement. I'd do Brad Pitt if he was holding a tasty sandwich.

[Raster]

73. ROFLMAO

:rofl:"I'd do Brad Pitt if he was holding a tasty sandwich."

[AngryAmish]

74. Is Sheryl Swopes an ex-straight?

Is Anne Heche an ex-gay? Are both bisexual?

I think this is kinda flamebait on my part and for that I apologize. However some folks have sexual experiences with both sexes then later in life decide they like one more than the other. Others have a lifelong bisexual preference.

people should be allowed to do whatever they want sexually and call themselves whatever they want.

Except for "Furries." That shit is sick.

[wixomblues]

98. I love Furries.

It makes me feel better knowing they are out there.

[AngryAmish]

105. Maybe we can have a pro/con Furry flamewar

I think it would be the most fun ever. PM me if you want to start.

[freestyle]

77. What's interesting is how whorish, addicted, etc. many of these folks are.

Their descriptions of their time "in the gay lifestyle" show some seriously screwed up people. Sexual insecurity is often the least of their problems. I simply can't relate. Yet their screwed up lives becomes the basis of how people who only listen to them view gay people. If my life had been like what these people describe, I would want some relief also. But, they treat the wrong problem.

[and-justice-for-all]

109. No such thing...

I came across this issue yesterday and found it very offensive...There is no such thing as an "ex-gay", the only thing these cults are providing is new cruiseing grounds...When the so-called 'ex-gay' is putting it to his wife, do you really think that he is thinking of her?? No, he his thinking of the hot new recruit that joined his mislead congragation that afternoon...

The only reson someone would join a cult of the supressive nature is because they are lost and because someone fed them some bullshit lines about his lifestyle at a weak moment.

What they teach is SUPRESSION of who you really are and that its NOT OK to be who you are. These Christian Cults remind me of BORG and their continuing mission to convert everyone on the planet into sheep. NO, I WILL NOT BE ASSEMULATED so fuck off!