Tonight... Around Midnight, A Sharp Little Schism Will Be Widened...

[WillyT]

even more, between Liberal\Progressives and the rest of the Democratic Party.

And quite possibly, that was the political calculus of Arnold's stupid decision today.

It seems to be working, because in recent days I've become nauseatingly disappointed in so many folks here, that I thought, knew better.

Tookie Williams may not be the point, but he sure just might be the metaphor for what's so wrong with race relations, poverty, crime, gangs, education, politics (left & right), and the entire goddamed country.

Sorry Tookie... you probably did more good in prison, than most of your blood-lusting critics will ever do in their entire lives.


But THEY WANT YOU DEAD, MAN!!!

Jesus... :puke:

[William769]

1. Well I won't be shedding any tears tonight.

[bryant69]

2. Perhaps I haven't been following this as closely as I should have

Is there serious evidence that suggests Mr. Williams might be innocent of the crimes he's accused of?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Aretha]

5. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

Just determined, 6-0 (if memory serves) that there isn't.

And to the OP, Williams did more harm to black communities in America than any DUer ever has or is ever likely to. Hell, he did more harm than any Klansman has or is likely to. The fact that he may or may not have sincerely tried to remedy the tremendous harm that he did does not change that fact.

[bryant69]

7. Not to quibble or anything

but my guess is most DUers aren't trying to do harm to black communities.

Bryant

[xchrom]

13. quibble?

that was mild.

i'll respond to you 'cause i'd get banned for damn sure if i responded to that.

[Aretha]

21. Right

But I was responding to the OP who said (re: DUers who did not support clemency):

Sorry Tookie... you probably did more good in prison, than most of your blood-lusting critics will ever do in their entire lives.

Given the fact that he continued to be an active leader of the Crips up to 15 years after his incarceration and the incredible harm he did, both as a murderer and as a leader of that gang, this is a damned silly statement.

[Blue_Roses]

57. what a naive' statement

"Hell, he did more harm than any Klansman has or is likely to."

While I am NOT familiar with Tookie Williams, I AM familiar with the Klan and as far as I'm concerned one doesn't equal or out-do the other.

The Klan and many more white-supremacists groups have evoked their share of violence too. Neither should be compared as righteous.

[MercutioATC]

3. Wanna SEE what Tookie really did? (graphic)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5560689

Yes, some people DO want him to pay for these choices with his life.

[Puglover]

4. How many times have you posted these pictures Mercutio? n/t

[MercutioATC]

6. This time makes exactly once.

Other questions?

[Puglover]

8. Oh sorry...

Who was the OP that you "encouraged" to post them?

Whatever I've alerted the mods to what I think is overkill graphic bullshit which seems to turn your crank and if they choose to leave them up I'll just ignore.

edit to add last sentence.

[MercutioATC]

14. Knock your socks off.

Why is it that people feel free to make righteous proclamations about who should live and who should die and yet they're SO offended with looking at graphic evidence of what they're discussing?

[TahitiNut]

17. "righteous proclamations about who should live and who should die"

... seem to be coming EXCLUSIVELY from the "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" death penalty advocates.

[MercutioATC]

22. ...or the "The death penalty is ALWAYS wrong" crowd...

I've seen it from both sides.



I know that some people find these images disturbing.

Good. They're SUPPOSED to be disturbing. Death's disturbing.

As I said, I'm undecided on the DP. It seems juvenile, however, to forcefully proclaim what's "right" without getting a real look at what's at issue.

[Puglover]

18. Are you like thick?

The pics have been posted....this dude is going to die and yet you feel they need to be posted AGAIN. FYI....I've looked at graphic shots from Iraq and ENCOURAGE people to look at them to see what is being done in our names. Do I fucking BATH in them? No. Get a grip.

Oh and quit putting words into my mouth. I don't say shit about who should live and who should die. That's your gig. What I say is these assholes should be locked up and the key thrown away. Period. I don't give a shit how many people you deter from a life of crime from behind bars or how many children's books you right. Good, fine. You killed 4 people and your life of freedom is toast.

BUT state sponsored murder is no better then what Tookie did.

edit spelling and add last paragraph....

[MercutioATC]

26. Why do you have such an issue with this?

These images were posted a couple of days ago in another thread that's since been locked (not because of the pictures).

I didn't restart an identical thread. I didn't even post them more than once. I felt that the thread I linked to and the images it included had a bearing on this discussion. Why the issue?

[Puglover]

30. It's a done deal...

he's gonna die. Why post them again? You seem like a thoughtful person. Do you honestly think that by posting these graphic shots that suddenly people like me are going to see the light and think that this guys death is justified? C'mon. Trust me Mercutio I'm no Pollyanna.

As I stated above....he did the unthinkable...I don't care if he comes up with a cure for George W. Bush he still rots in jail till he dies with no hope of freedom. Ugh, can you imagine that? I'd rather die. But can you not see....that if this fool can make some poor kids make some good choices that his continued existence could be justified? But even that isn't my point, if we kill we are no better than he is/was.

[WillyT]

33. Amen Puglover... Amen !!!

:yourock:

[Puglover]

39. And one more thing....

don't think for one fuckin second that when I read about monsters (and they exist, make no mistake)that I would not like to "pull the switch" or do all kinds of heinous things to them to make them suffer but I guess I think I'm here to TRY to get above all of that. And it's tough...really tough sometimes especially with this evil fuckin administration.

[Shakespeare]

44. Posting photos like that is an attempt to incite.

As someone who's categorically opposed to the death penalty, posting the pictures strikes me as little better than manipulation. Pulling shit like that is what incited lynch mobs in the past--and let me make this crystal clear: I make that comparison not as a statement on Williams' character, but as a statement on how we as a society react to the criminals among us. Are we going to be vengeful and bloodthirsy, or are we going to contemplate how to rise above that kind of violence and be a better society?

[MercutioATC]

53. No, it's an attempt to discuss.

(and, to some degree, respond to this line from the OP):

"Sorry Tookie... you probably did more good in prison, than most of your blood-lusting critics will ever do in their entire lives."


I'm not really concerned about inciting a lynch mob here a DU, so I don't feel I have a responsibility issue to deal with in that respect. I just don't see the harm in fully discussing all aspects of BOTH sides of the issue.

[G_j]

19. ??

because it might make them physically ill?


Why do people like to push that stuff in others faces?

been to any "pro-life" rallies lately?

[MercutioATC]

27. That's why people post "graphic" warnings.

...so other people who might get ill don't look.

I'm not pushing anything in anybody's face. You are free to consider the information I linked to or not...just like any other post here.

[G_j]

43. I didn't realize

you posted a link. I resisted hitting "view all" on the thread as I thought you had posted the pics.

Sorry, you are right, you did nothing wrong.
Though It seems sort of pointless now.

[MercutioATC]

63. You're right, I should have posted "graphic link" instead of just "graphic

[Mass]

9. So it is pure revenge. Totally barbaric IMHO.

As barbaric as what he did.

[WillyT]

12. Dude... Wanna See What The Iraqi Terrorists Did On 9\11 ???

Gimme a break with the graphics already.

The death penalty is ALWAYS WRONG!!!

Life without parole is the way. At least for evolved civilizations.

Oops, sorry dude.

:wtf:

[MercutioATC]

16. Some see it differently.

I don't see a problem with a real look at what we're actually talking about.

[sandnsea]

49. Let's then

Not done by psychotic misfits, but by "civilized" peoples, with full mental faculties and pre-meditation.






Lucky his head didn't pop off.

Botched lethal injection
http://ccadp.org/benniedemps.htm

Maybe we should do it like they do in Iran.

[patrice]

10. Too "wide"?

I don't think so, but maybe that's because I agree with you, another Scapegoat, but why is anyone surprised. Death is glorified by "our" culture and we are very dishonest about ourselves.

It is an axiom of Psychology that the explanations for your own short comings are always situational, not your fault, the situation caused some bad thing to happen. And the explanations for the short comings of Others is never Situational; Others' faults are always intrinsic to them as individuals.

I think this is essentially how goodness is often imagined in our society, the ability to "get rid" of All of those who are Bad.

This is the way of the Good Shephard?

[xchrom]

15. interesting -- there's alot i like

in your post.

[MalachiConstant]

11. i wonder...

many pro-death republicans are also pro-life (anti-choice). i wonder if this same correlation applies to dems. any thoughts?









postscript:

i apologize in advance if this is against some rule i'm unaware of, but i'm going to plug my thread. i have started a thread suggesting a new DU group for career advice, and job seekers. if you're interested please check out this thread and reply:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4430590

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Rest in peace, Mr. Williams

I think that executing Stanley Williams sends a wrong message to black folk-its like it doesn't matter if you reform, you did a bad thing, you're black, so you don't get the chance to live. Remember, please, that blacks are disproportionately represented in prison-and I don't believe for an instant that its because black folk are more lawless than others.

[WillyT]

25. How People Can Support The Death Penalty In Racist America...

and yet call themselves progressives is TRULY fucking amazing!

The fact that this country is still racist, is EXACTLY why there should be no DP.

Course... maybe that's why they keep the DP around. Just keeps the racism alive, no?

:shrug:

[G_j]

54. The DP in the US is Racist

the facts support this EOM

[jmowreader]

46. You are aware of the nature of the "bad thing" he did, right?

Dude, we ain't talkin' about Stanley Williams the convenience store robber.

We ain't talkin' about Stanley Williams the carjacker.

We are talkin' about Stanley Williams the individual who killed three human beings with shotgun blasts to the head then went home, put the shotgun under the bed, got in the bed and went to sleep.

You can't "reform" from shit like that, man. The fact that he could kill three people on one night in the coldest blood on record, then fucking go to bed with zero remorse, says he ain't fit to be alive.

There are things you can reform from. This ain't one of 'em.

[tonka023]

52. reform?

I have to believe we're better than the worst thing we've done, even if we've done that
thing more than once. I'll freely admit that for me, this is far beyond Stanley Williams,
this is the death penelty. There are studies that strongly show how the death penelty
is no deterent. More than that, there is evidence to suggest that the crime rate increases
in areas in times surrounding executions. If we are willing to consider energy transmission
and how we are all connected, whether we are aware of this connection or not, it does
make sense. My government telling some soul that they will kill it on a given date affects
me. I believe it affects more than me too.

That this man became engaged in more positive work in these last few years, I don't know
a whole lot about. I think this is good but doesn't necessarily make his life more valuable
than any other. But I do think we have to believe in redemption for people as well. What
about our poor children sent over to Iraq and taught to treat other people in a horrific
manner? Are we going to deal with them in a similar manner when they come home? Some
of them are going to bring this horror home. Some will bring Abu Graib, some will bring
Falujah. Can they reform from that?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

86. Yes, I am aware

but unlike you, I believe that any person is redeemable. I might remind you that Jesus forgave those who were said to have done "irredemable" things in His time. The Bible says, "Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord", and one of the 99 Beautiful Names of God is The Avenger. What this means is that it is not our place to operate out of vengence. I am against ALL executions for these reasons. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don't think you will ever convince me to change mine and I doubt if I can ever convince you to change yours.

[Tomee450]

70. Thank you.

I'm black and feeling pretty bad right now. This execution just reminds me of all the bad things blacks are subjected to in this country. Statistics show that blacks are more likely to be given the death penalty, less likely to have good legal representation, more likely to be subjected to the three strikes law. The celebratory nature of some of these posts is simply awful and I think they have a racial element. I am reminded of the unjust justice system, of racial profiling, police beatings and I just think African Americans have a long way to go before they can really feel secure in their own country.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

80. Tomee, there's enough reason NOT to murder Williams

in the simple fact that somewhere in America, in several thousand somewheres, as a matter of fact, white people are giggling. And that giggling flows from the same place as the "Dude, cool!" remarks that were to be heard on the night of "Shock and Awe," when we decided to start the summary execution of a hundred thousand brown-skinned people, men, women and children. And the same people who giggle about Stanley Williams giggled about that, too.

Does a country that does either and/or both deserve to call itself "free?"

[rinsd]

23. This stuff would be easier to deal with....

...if people were making the moral argument that state sponsored murder is always wrong irregardless of circumstance.

The Tookie has done well stuff just doesn't fly.

He murdered 4 people. He was instrumental in creating a gang that has killed more young people than I care to think about (in rivals gangs, because of their membership and the offshotts and copycats). Throw in the poisoning of communities through drug dealing and the violence associated with that and well I just can't get all that excited about the man writing a book.

The fact that he may have convinced 100 of kids not to follow his path is in my opinion the very least he could do for the horror his visited not only the victims of his convicted and non-convicted crime but the legacy of those gangs and the problems we face today.

All that said, life in parole is enough.

[patrice]

31. "life in parole" - you mean "prison" don't you.

No parole ever, and they should do some work (defined by the State) that helps others and all of his wages should go to charity.

[rinsd]

42. D'oh...that should have been "w/out" not "in"....thanks (NT)

[Poppyseedman]

24. Tonight... Around Midnight, A Sharp Little Schism Will Be Widened...

Completely disagree.

Around midnight, a month from now, most people will say "Tookie" who?

[WillyT]

28. It's About Votes Man... And If You Don't Think...

some of us aren't comparing the Green position, with the Dem position on the DP, you're sadly mis-informed.

We got Joe-mentum with his lips firmly planted of the boy-king's butt, and Hillary coming out for anit-flag burning crap...

Damn... and just when it looked like my party was about to get its act together.

:puke:

[G_j]

32. you are talking about a reality

and some of those people become livid if you say you may be leaning toward a third party that better represents your convictions.

Some of us remember when the DP was a "law and order" issue front and center with the right wing, not Liberals

Take heart though, the pendulum of publ8ic opinion has been swinging against the DP for a while.

[Poppyseedman]

34. What is the Green position on the DP?

[Dead_Parrot]

35. It's OK so long as you compost them afterwards.

I know, bad taste. I'm in one of those moods, I'm afraid.

[wuushew]

38. Against

http://www.greenparty.org/Platform.php#9

[WillyT]

40. The Greens Want To Abolish The Death Penalty... Thank Goodness !!!

Link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=green+party+death+penalty&btnG=Search

:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

50. Thanks for the info

you just helped insure that I will vote for Hillary Clinton over a Green.

[WillyT]

58. Hell Dude, You're...

about as Republican as Dems get!

No?

:shrug:

[MercutioATC]

69. Ooooh! All we need now is the elusive badger vote and it's a lock!!!

Frankly, the Greens don't have any political clout anyway.


It's sorta like saying "Aunt Sally wants to abolish the death penalty...Thank Goodness!!!"

[WillyT]

79. LOL... If Progressive Liberal Dems Head Over There, They Sure Will...

and the Dino Centrists will be right there in the wilderness with us.

Except for the Republican lock that would ensue, it's lookin mighty tempting.

:mad:

[depakid]

73. The logical one, as usual

Abolish it as cruel and unusual punishment- like the Supreme Court should have done back in the early 70's.

And they would have too- had Bobby Kennedy not been shot and had Johnson not handed 2 nominations right over to Nixon because of his sheep stupidity.

[ET Awful]

41. Actually, it's more like the people who don't care about the death penalty

don't pay any attention to anything having to do with gangs or gang violence, and really don't pay attention to anything beyond their own tunnelized worldview will forget.

Those of us who knew of Williams and his efforts years ago will remember. Those who are against the death penalty will remember. The thousands who credit Williams with saving them from gang life will remember.

Only those whose only concern for their fellow man is a facade will forget.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

76. Maybe you're right

There are 100,000+ dead Iraqi civilians, and we never even made it to knowing their names and our military says it refuses to count dead Iraqis. And we still haven't surrounded the White House in our millions and demanded that Bush resign and exit post haste.

"Iraqi" who?

When we'll kill one (or, 1,001, as Williams will be) why are people surprised when we can as easily kill a hundred or hundred thousand times that number?

[Dead_Parrot]

29. Help me out, I'm confused.

So the message is, it's OK to kill people so long as you say sorry afterwards and take up writing?

Don't get me wrong, I think the DP is a morally retarded way to deal with any crime, especially if there's a racial aspect to it's use.

What I don't get is why people are jumping around the founder of a murderous gang like he's Francis of Assisi. Where were the Tookie fans when Wesley Baker was executed, or Shawn Humphries? Did these guys not write enough books? Does anybody even know who they were, without dipping into google?

[incapsulated]

37. Exactly

Getting all pissed off at the party for some reason, because the GD is in a frenzy over this one person is nutso to me.

I am against the DP but Tookie is the last person I would want to use as a poster boy for that cause.

Innocent people have gone to their deaths without a peep from the media or DU that I've noticed.

[Dead_Parrot]

45. Glad it's not just me

I'll lay good money there are no "Save Clarence" threads, even with two to choose from. Not enough rapper friends, I guess.

[incapsulated]

48. Also...

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Regardless of which side of the debate people are on, I would hope we are all for freeing the innocent. It's too late for people like Ruben Cantu, yet another of the innocent the Texas put to death, but perhaps we can save others.

"Like Williams, Cantu maintained his innocence until the very end, and Cantu’s long-silent co-defendant signed a sworn affidavit saying he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. The lone eyewitness in the case told the Houston Chronicle that he felt pressured to identify the then-17-year-old Cantu as the man who shot him at least nine times and fatally shot another victim in November 1984. Juan Moreno recanted and told the Houston Chronicle that Cantu was not the criminal. “It was a case of an innocent person being killed,” Moreno said."

"One of the strongest arguments for capital punishment is the belief that killing convicted criminals is preferable to the possibility that they will return to society. But that belief hinges on the certainty that the people being sentenced to death are, in fact, guilty of the crime for which they had been convicted."

"All too often in recent years, an eagerness on the part of law enforcement officials to bring closure to a case has resulted in incarcerating an innocent party. And, as in the case of Cantu, mistakes revealed too late are impossible to correct."

"But since the U.S. Supreme Court brought back the death penalty in 1976, more of the American public has expressed a hesitant attitude toward rushing to the eye-for-an-eye style of justice. Americans would prefer to see convicted murderers put to death rather than return to civilian life; but support for the death penalty is not as fervent when compared to life without parole."

http://www.ccchronicle.com/paper/opinions.php?id=2028

[ET Awful]

36. Little hint to the bloodlusters . . . gangs existed long before Tookie did

In fact, the Crips existed before Tookie did. see http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.crips.reut/index.html

Tookie didn't invent gangs. He didn't invent gang violence. Without Willams, Raymond Washington STILL would have turned the Crips into what they became. Williams came later.

Trying to blame Williams for the existence of gangs and the entirety of gang violence is like trying to blame George Washington for all the acts of Americans since his time.

Is Tookie a complete innocent? Hell no. But to try and imply that he invented gangs through his involvement with the Crips is ill-informed and uneducated.

There were hispanic gangs and black gangs in LA dating back to the 40's and 50's. The Bloods gangs in LA have their original roots in Chicago with the P-Stone gangs. In LA, it morphed into Bloods and Piru.

Gangs as they exist today would exist with or without Williams, he was just one of many. Look to "Monster" Kody Scott for another example (one who despite having killed several people escaped a capital conviction and is now, at least last I heard, free from jail and out of gang life altogether).

[rasputin1952]

47. Tonight, there will be another death ...whether pro DP, or anti-DP, we

should not find joy in the demise of another human being.

I have been anti-DP for a good many years. The rationale that pro people come up with just doesn't cut it for me. I know that William's death will neither atone for the crimes he allegedly, nor bring the victims back. What I do know, is that no one has been killed by Williams since his incarceration. This shows me that Life w/o Parole is a viable option in protecting citizens from this man; and that is the purpose of a just sentence.

[noiretextatique]

51. indeed, willyt

the gulf continues to widen between the two americas, and its splinters.
among the absurdities in this debate, the race issue is perhaps the most absurd.

[WillyT]

55. Yeah Karen... And The Self-Righteous Smugness Of The People Who...

will bathe in 'Justice' as he's strapped down and murdered, is so fucking...

Republican...

among other things.

How ya doin girl?

:grouphug:

[noiretextatique]

56. better

my dad passed away in october after a year-long illness. i can't say i will be sad to see this, the worst year of my life, over. other than that...i keep on keeping on :hi:

[WillyT]

66. Sorry To Here About Your Dad...

Hang in there girl. You've gotta friend here.

Whaddya think... springtime in GG Park... with a case of fine Merlot???

A flask of Jack, a spliff of Ganja, a...

:bounce::hippie::smoke::hippie::bounce:

:loveya:

[noiretextatique]

67. YES

especially to the :smoke: just le tme know when and where :hi:
thanks, friend...it takes some getting used to, as i know you know :hug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. Schism My Ass. Talk About Your Melodrama

It is the melodramatic threads that have taken this over the top. "hey, just pull the switch yourself", "hey, you are blood lusting wah wah", "hey, you are causing a schism in the party"

melo melo melo, melo melodramaaaaaaa

:eyes:

[WillyT]

64. Wow... You're Deep...

:evilfrown:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Awwww, You just made me sad. Seriously. That sad devil is cute as can be

made me feel sad when I saw him. I hope I wasn't overly harsh to ya!

[tlsmith1963]

60. While I am Divided Over Tookie...

...I still feel bad for African-Americans tonight. They all ready got screwed over in the aftermath of New Orleans. Now Tookie will probably die, making them feel alienated even more. This country is so cold & screwed up.

Tammy

[Connie_Corleone]

62. Don't feel too bad. There are plenty of us who think he should

have his sentence carried out. Tookie Williams is no hero in the black community.

Don't let the celebrities and the black "leaders" on TV fool you.

[Tomee450]

72. Polls show that most African Americans do

not share your point of view. Black people oppose the death penalty because they believe in not killing other human beings and because the death penalty is more than likely to be given to a black person. A greater percentage of blacks are on death row even though blacks are only 12% of the population. There are people who support the death penalty because they know they are the least likely to get it if convicted. The death penalty is immoral and racist and no black person should support it.

[Connie_Corleone]

85. I'll let you know when I come across those majority of black people

who disagree with me. Because they sure aren't in my family or friends, or the people who called in to a local black talk radio station yesterday.

Take care.

[Connie_Corleone]

61. Make sure you take something for that upset stomach.

Tookie Williams will be a distant, faint memory in a few days.

[tedzbear]

68. A life sentence without parole is sufficient for all murder cases!

Including the cases of war criminals Bush and Cheney. It's hypocritical to commit an act of violence to punish an act of violence. The whole point of incarceration is to protect society from being at the mercy of criminals, not to teach them a lesson.

Supporting the death penalty is the same thing as dropping cluster bombs on Iraqis in order to liberate them.


In case you wondered, yes, I am an ex-Democrat and current Green Party member.

Go Green! :bounce:

[Dances with Cats]

71. It is virtually impossible for me to believe...

that I am in the company with fellow liberal, progressive moinded people here. This site is DLC,the middle of the road, almost veering to conservative alot of times, Especialy on this Tookie thing. Blew my fucking mind,Dude!.

[depakid]

74. It's just base emotion

people get caught up with it, having grown up with a Dirty Harry" style mentality blasted at them throughout their lives.

It's why Republicans are so good at politics- they play to the emotion and short circuit the reason. Even otherwise progressive people fall for that kind of thing.

[WillyT]

75. I Know... I Haven't Been Posting A Lot Lately, And Then I Come Back...

and find this shit.

It's like I dropped into Joe Lieberman, or Zell Miller's playground.

:wtf:

[Lautremont]

78. Another here who can't believe this is DU.

I've looked at the fucking pictures. I know what "Tookie" has done. I'm glad he's in jail. I don't think he should be killed. I think the people who think he should be killed are creeps.

[TankLV]

77. Sorry, I won't be shedding any tears or losing any sleep tonite.

I'm against the death penalty but I don't care in his case at all.

Sorry if that rankles some here.

There are FAR more deserving persons than "death bed" conversions.

Let him rot in prison - but LET HIM ROT is my bottom line.

[tonka023]

81. jesus

What's wrong with life in prison? This blood lust around here absolutely
blows my mind. The guy has been in prison for 26 years. Has that not
worked? Whether people buy his conversion or not, he's
reaching out to people and doing some good work. I'm not saying
to set him free, but why kill him? Or is it just the American thing
to do?

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

82. I feel better.

Yup - I feel better now - about my decision to head back to le pentes. The self-serving lazy-minded fathead Americans who here have fed the umpteen "Kill 'im' threads and posts only serve to confirm my conviction that the American public, as a whole (the "average American", if you will), is a fucking pig, driven by fear and greed, has no conscience.

Frankly, this whole episode has been more disgusting and demoralizing than everything that has happened since December 2000, and gods help me, people, that is saying one hell of alot. Christ on a bloody crucifix!

May the Muses smile on Harold Pinter and his vision!

[angee_is_mad]

83. arnold made a calculation

and by God it worked. As you said it is reflected in the threads on here. Unfortunately, there is somethings that are simmering beneath the surface in this country and even so-call progressive are in denial about it, unless they are talking about it in an abstract sense.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

84. There you go!

A cynical political calculation, appealing to the baser instincts that even "progressives" respond to. It would cause me to lose my faith in human nature, if I had any...

[cmd]

87. I consider myself to be in the rest of the Democratic Party

and I oppose the death penalty. Your banket statement just doesn't cover everyone.