do you believe that condemned murderers CAN be rehabilitated?

[mike_c]

It seems to me that IF we have any hope that criminal justice will rehabilitate people who commit crimes, even heinous crimes, rather than simply extract society's revenge, then we must acknowledge that outcome somehow. What's the point of even making noises about rehabilitation if it's meaningless in the end? More to the point, do you even believe that rehabilitation is possible? Religious histories are filled with stories of rehabilitation, wastrels who see the light, prodigal sons, and so on. The possibility of rehabilitation is central to the philosophy of American criminal justice. It is part of the basis by which parole is granted. Nonetheless, many here seem to disregard it in the end-- all the recent threads about Stanley Williams that emphasize the magnitude of the crimes he was convicted of, for example, rather than asking whether he has since turned his life around, and whether that evidence of rehabilitation is meaningful in the context of American criminal justice. So I'll ask the question directly: Can criminals-- even deliberate murderers-- be rehabilitated, and should their rehabilitation be taken into account when their sentences are reevaluated?

[stevebreeze]

1. Clearly Arnold thinks we should all be judged by the worst thing we did in

our lives. I'm sure he will have "Star of 'Jingle all the Way'" carved into his tombstone.

[rinsd]

3. You make it sound like he shoplifted....

..instead of murdering 4 people with a shotgun.

You can make a moral argument against the DP without pretending Williams was a good guy.

[mike_c]

6. but what if he's "a good guy" now...?

I think it's a relevant question-- he maintains his innocence, but even if he is guilty, is it possible that in the intervening 25 years he has changed, and if he has, is it right to define his worth-- and decide his fate-- by the worst he's done, rather than by the best?

[rinsd]

9. I'm not sure anything truly redeems one for such a callous act....

...and to that we can add his ongoing legacy as co-creator of one of the most dangerous gangs in the country.

I am glad he turned around his life, I just don't see it as redemption.

Do I want him to die? No. I think life w/out parole is enough of a sentence.

[SPKrazy]

20. No, murder is murder, and the law should be followed.

If we are against the DP, then make laws outlawing it.

Otherwise, don't expect such a spotlighted case, where the acts were especially heinous, to be a case example of redemption.

He can be a greatly changed person, but he can talk to God about that one.

In this realm, he was convicted of killing 4 persons, and he is probably responsible for more.

[stevebreeze]

18. who said williams was a good guy?

NO purpose will be severed by his death. The public is not served by vengeance.

[SPKrazy]

19. Exactly what I was thinking, minimizing the minimum of 4 murders! n/t

[Sal316]

2. For a "christian" nation......

....we're awfully short on forgiveness sometimes.

[RC]

7. This country sure is.

It's as if the first four books of the New Testament do not exist.

[Fescue4u]

4. Yes. Redemption starts with admission of guilt

Thats the first step. One that tookie has neglected to take for 25 years.

[mike_c]

5. like "if Saddam says he's disarmed we'll know he's lying?"

If Williams maintains his innocence for 25 years we'll know he's a cold blooded remorseless stone killer?

[Fescue4u]

13. The evidence is quite clear

that he is guilty

[mike_c]

14. that's what they said about Iraq's WMD's....

No doubt about it. It's SO nice to be infallible.

[Fescue4u]

17. Yea, its exactly the same

lol

[Tomee450]

23. They said that the evidence

in the Central Park jogger case proved the defendants guilty but it turned out they were not. Those young black men spent years in jail for a rape that someone else committed. Just last week another black man was released from prison after spending over twenty years in prison for rape. DNA proved his innocence. Plenty of people have spent years in jail after being convicted on evidence thought to be conclusive. Some were even wrongly identified by eyewitnesses.

[Bonhomme Richard]

8. I wouldn't want to bet my kids life on it.

Then again, I do not believe in State executions either for any reason.

[MrSlayer]

10. It depends.

Do I believe the guy who walks in to find his wife with another man and in a fit of passion kills them both can be rehabilitated? Yes. Do I believe a career criminal who uses murder as a business practice can be? No.

[RazzleDazzle]

11. When I heard the news this afternoon, I thought a bit about

saving people who were trapped in burning autos, or in autos in floods, or saving people who were n accidents of other types where they had done something stupid perhaps, and their predicament was clearly their fault. Shall we stop doing that? Isn't that the meaning of this decision -- it doesn't matter what else, if it was your fault initially, you're not going to get saved. Maybe we should stop picking people off the mountains they get stuck on?

I am heartbroken, and after a lot of thought I figured out one major reason why: Do we not believe in forgiveness (let alone mercy) in this country? How harsh a place do we want to make this nation? Is it true that I wouldn't/couldn't be forgiven if I had done something wrong or just stupid, and no matter how I tried to atone, I could still only expect the worst punishment that can be extacted for my "crime" because there's no such thing as forgiveness, a 2nd chance, rehabilitation, mercy? Do we not value the good works of people who are helping and doing good for others?

I hope and pray there'll come a day when Arnold Schwarzenegger receives the exact same measure of compassion, justice and mercy as he meted out today.

[mike_c]

12. well said, RazzleDazzle....

I'm reminded to of the parable about people who live in glass houses. Maybe we're not all guilty of mass murder, but few of us are completely innocent. Where would WE be without redemption?

[Tomee450]

24. I agree totally.

I am very shocked by the lack of forgiveness and the demand for revenge. Even some people, supposedly Christian, are supporting this execution. What about Jesus' call to forgive? Where is Christ in these so called Christians.

[chat_noir]

15. Criteria for the death penalty

Crimes Punishable by the Death Penalty


The Bureau of Justice Statistics, Capital Punishment 2003 , (November 2003, NCJ 206627) lists the following as captial crimes, by state:

Alabama. Intentional murder with 18 aggravating factors (13A-5-40(a)(1)-(18)).

Arizona. First-degree murder accompanied by at least 1 of 10 aggravating factors (A.R.S 13-703(F)).

Arkansas. Capital murder (Ark. Code Ann. 5-10-101) with a finding of at least 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances; treason.

California. First-degree murder with special circumstances; train wrecking; treason; perjury causing execution.

Colorado. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 17 aggravating factors; treason.

Connecticut. Capital felony with 8 forms of aggravated homicide (C.G.S. 53a-54b).

Delaware. First-degree murder with aggravating circumstances.

Florida. First-degree murder; felony murder; capital drug trafficking; capital sexual battery.

Georgia. Murder; kidnaping with bodily injury or ransom when the victim dies; aircraft hijacking; treason.

Idaho. First-degree murder with aggravating factors; aggravated kidnaping.

Illinois. First-degree murder with 1 of 21 aggravating circumstances.

Indiana. Murder with 16 aggravating circumstances (IC 35-50-2-9).

Kansas. Capital murder with 8 aggravating circumstances (KSA 21-3439).

Kentucky. Murder with aggravating factors; kidnaping with aggravating factors (KRS 532.025).

Louisiana. First-degree murder; aggravated rape of victim under age 12; treason (La. R.S. 14:30, 14:42, and 14:113).

Maryland. First-degree murder, either premeditated or during the commission of a felony, provided that certain death eligibility requirements are satisfied.

Mississippi. Capital murder (97-3-19(2) MCA); aircraft piracy (97-25-55(1) MCA).

Missouri. First-degree murder (565.020 RSMO 2000).

Montana. Capital murder with 1 of 9 aggravating circumstances (46-18-303 MCA); capital sexual assault (45-5-503 MCA).

Nebraska. First-degree murder with a finding of at least 1 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstance.

Nevada. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 14 aggravating circumstances (NRS 200.030, 200.033, 200.035).

New Hampshire. Six categories of capital murder (RSA 630:1, RSA 630:5).

New Jersey. Murder by one's own conduct, by, committed in furtherance of a narcotics conspiracy, or during the commission of the crime of terrorism (NJSA 2C:11-3C).

New Mexico. First-degree murder with at least 1 of 7 statutorily-defined aggravating circumstances (Section 30-2-1 A, NMSA).

New York. First-degree murder with 1 of 13 aggravating factors (NY Penal Law Sec. 125.27). (NOTE: On June 24, 2004, the New York death penalty statute was ruled unconstitutional.)


North Carolina. First-degree murder (NCGS ¤14-17).

Ohio. Aggravated murder with at least 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances (O.R.C. secs. 2903.01, 2929.02, and 2929.04).

Oklahoma. First-degree murder in conjunction with a finding of at least 1 of 8 statutorily defined aggravating circumstances.

Oregon. Aggravated murder (ORS 163.095).

Pennsylvania. First-degree murder with 18 aggravating circumstances.

South Carolina. Murder with 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances (¤ 16-3-20(C)(a)).

South Dakota. First-degree murder with 1 of 10 aggravating circumstances; aggravated kidnaping.

Tennessee. First-degree murder with 1 of 15 aggravating circumstances (Tenn. Code Ann. Sec. 39-13-204).

Texas. Criminal homicide with 1 of 8 aggravating circumstances (TX Penal Code 19.03).

Utah. Aggravated murder (76-5-202, Utah Code annotated).

Virginia. First-degree murder with 1 of 13 aggravating circumstances (VA Code ¤ 18.2-31).

Washington. Aggravated first-degree murder.

Wyoming. First-degree murder.


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=144&scid=10

I'm not a lawyer. I don't know the differences among first degree murder,aggravated murder, and capital murder.

I do question aggravated kidnapping (SD)

[Terran1212]

16. Without a doubt -- not even a question

[Horse with no Name]

21. Some can, some can't

Depending on the underlying motive for the killings.
The question really needs to be, is that can someone who is considered rehabilitated (I think along the lines of Carla Faye Tucker, not Tookie)
be released into society again?
Even though I truly believed that she was rehabilitated, she still deserved to serve out her punishment--alive--and in prison.
By saying someone is rehabilitated, you are certifying they will never again commit that crime.
However, many murders are a series of events that spiral out of control. Many would take it back if they could.
Sad thing is, they can't.
Someone died and that must be paid for. A pound of flesh.
However, I prefer the flesh to remain breathing.

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. Let me put it this way....

There's probably some rapists out there, especially the sick fucking pieces of shit who rape children, who deserve the death penalty far more than some murderers. If it were left up to me to commute Tookie Williams to life without parole in exchange for taking a baby raper out of this life, I wouldn't think twice about it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. That depends on the murderer.

Serial killers and sociopaths cannot be rehabilitated. Nor can they ever be out in society without being a danger to others. Someone who commits murder out of passion or desperation probably CAN be rehabilitated (whatever that means), but their transgression is still of such a nature that they've forfeited any right to an existence outside the walls of a prison.