A Caucasian White Collar Criminal would be pardoned quickly

[texpatriot2004]

in the world we live in today. They are pardoned all the time. Get off with a slap on the wrist they do. Evil bastards.

I have not been, nor will I be now in the debate here about Tookie Williams but when I heard that Governator denied clemency to him...my first thought was if he were a white male, an executive who had committed a white collar crime...you can bet your ass he'd be pardoned.

Other than that, I won't say much except that rejoicing in the death of another is wrong; to be pleased about it, or happy about it, or glad about it is wrong IMHO. Killing people is wrong...no matter who is doing it.

[newsguyatl]

1. eh,,,

if a white man shot to death 4 people like he did, and founded a deadly gang, i somehow doubt it.

[baldguy]

31. How many Union Carbide officers went to jail after Bhopol?

They killed 20,000 people.

[foreigncorrespondent]

36. Funny!

I seem to recall a famous white man who formed a gang who went on a murderous spree, who to this day sits in jail not on death row.

This man sentence may have been revoked after CA revoked their state sanctioned murder laws, but regardless, he is still a white man who helped to commit terrible crimes. A man who has shown no remorse, period. And he lives to gloat about it.

That man, Charles Manson!

[Double T]

2. Hell, the caucasian white collar criminals don't even get indicted

[Cleita]

6. Yeah and some of them even become President.n/t

[WLKjr]

56. They get severance packages.n/t

[Horse with no Name]

60. Yeah...and Golden Showers

uhhh...I mean Golden Parachutes.
The employees are the ones that get pissed on.

[acmavm]

3. How can you thing you're not involved in the debate. When you posted

your opinion you became involved. Right or wrong, you are now part of this debate.

[Cleita]

4. Or a movie or sports star.

Isn't Robert Blake walking around free?

[MrMonk]

18. Blake was acquitted, not pardoned.

[Cleita]

21. Yes, but we all know he did it.

I don't get juries who acquit obvious murderers. However, this is the whole point about the DP. It's applied unevenly through the population. Blake could afford the high priced lawyers who got him acquitted.

[WinkyDink]

5. Ted Bundy might disagree.

[noiretextatique]

7. he was a mass murderer

not a "white collar" criminal.

[Perky]

57. So was Tookie

Berkowitx killed 7 or 8

Hillside Stangler many more.

Jeffrey Dahmer dozensa.

BTK 8 or nine I think...


THe differenc is that those folks were insane....Tooke killed for Turf and with a certain glee. He is a sepicable human being and anyone who did what he did deserves preciesley the same fate.

[noiretextatique]

72. we was convicted of killing 4 people

per his own account of his life, he explained the whys of his choices and actions. i never understood it, having grown up in the same area he did and say it all mushroom into a living nightmare.
i don't recall any of the people use mentioned ever trying to reach out to kids to encourage them to choose another path, as williams' personal journey led him to do.
he was a gangster...there is no about that. but i suppose i do believe in redemption, having known several people who committed heinous acts and went on the live productive lives. i hope williams' efforts continue to positively effect the lives of kids living with the pressure of joining gangs. i'd wager: that's something most of you here, especially the DP advocates, know nothing about.

[MercutioATC]

8. White collar crimes aren't capital offenses.

They don't hang you for securities fraud.


That said, Scott Peterson is white and I don't believe he'd get clemency either.

[noiretextatique]

9. true...but some crimes, like those of the enrons' of the world

destroy far more lives than scott peterson did.

[HereSince1628]

11. unfortunately, stealing people's retirement isn't punished like killing

even though the results may be similar.

Justice awaits a very distant (infinite?) realignment of power.

[MercutioATC]

14. Yes, but the OP claims that it's a racial issue. It's not. It's an issue

of offense. White-collar crimes aren't capital offenses.

[noiretextatique]

17. the results are often the same

the destruction of lives. i would tend to agree with the poster for that reason. stealing someone's retirement fund, for example, would probably carry a lighter sentence than stealing someone's car.

[MercutioATC]

20. So you believe it's a racial issue?

(that a Caucasion white-collar criminal wouldn't be put to death for a crime that doesn't carry the death penalty anyway)

[noiretextatique]

22. i believe the justice system is america is racist and classist

yes.

[MercutioATC]

28. But the OP's entire scenario was based on an unrealistic situation.

"A Caucasion white collar criminal would be pardoned quickly"

1) No white collar criminal of ANY race would be facing the death penalty, so there would be no occasion to pardon them (or commute their sentence).

2) Plenty of Caucasion white collar criminals ARE prosecuted and go to jail.


The entire statement is basically gibberish.

[noiretextatique]

43. the statement may be inaccurate, but the issue

of what is considered a capital crime tends to favor a certain class of criminal. see ultraist's post for an example.

[MercutioATC]

45. So you're in favor of executing white-collar criminals?

[noiretextatique]

68. i am against the death penalty

but i am in favor of "white collar" criminals being treated like what they are: CRIMINALS who wreck as much havoc and pain in people's lives as "capital" criminals.

[MercutioATC]

71. I agree, but that has less to do with race than socioeconomic status.

Hell, O.J. is free.

Scott Peterson is in jail.


It does occasionally work correctly, even when the wealthy are involved...the Rigas' (who robbed Adelphia blind) are in jail (well, a couple of 'em anyway).

[noiretextatique]

73. OJ is one person

as i told the black kids who cheered his verdict: do you think his "victory" means anything FOR YOU? um...no.
class, my ass. racism, the tradition, CREATED a virtually all-white upper class...that was one if its functions. as long as most CEOs are white men, they will continue to receive especial treatment for the "white collar" crimes they commit. it would be interesting to see if the convictions and sentences for "white collar" crime show a similar racial pattern as for other crime, although i suspect they do.

[MercutioATC]

75. I'm not denying racism exists...

...I just feel that the legal system's faults are based primarily in discrimination based on money, not skin color.

[noiretextatique]

80. i hear you

but i think it is both money and race, OJ notwithstanding. the statistics still support my position.

[MercutioATC]

83. They do to a degree.

It depends how you interpret them.

Somebody here posted statistics that show that Hispanics make up 6% of executions. That's WAY below their percentage of U.S. society as a whole. These statistics could be interpreted to mean that Hispanics are getting favorible treatment...

[noiretextatique]

85. conviction rates and sentencing

in comparsion to other groups would add some illumination to that statistic.

[MercutioATC]

87. I agree.

My point is that "statistics" can be made to say anything you want them to. I'm certainly not denying that racism exists but my experience with the law has led me to believe that money matters a lot more than skin color.

Conviction rates ARE higher for blacks. Does that mean that the courts are truly racist or that more blacks than whites statistically populate the ranks of the socioeconomically disadvantaged and the courts are, as I believe, discriminating by a money standard, not a race standard?

[noiretextatique]

88. i hear that a lot from people who work in the field

my experience: i was stopped for driving without lights by two cops in two cars. i was pissed and had an attitude because they scared the shit out of me, and because usually cops just flash people in the area where i was (brightly lit downtown street). they decided to run me even though my tags were current, i had proof of insurance, my drivers license was current, and i proved to them that my lights worked. i thought it was a profiling thing, so i didn't feel the need to cooperate, so they cited me for a couple of things and let me go after 15 minutes of their bs.
i went to court, because i had the money to post the bail, unlike most of the other people there that day (mostly black and latino).
the cops didn't show up in court...the case was dismissed, and i got my $450.00 back.
i got stopped because i was black, (standard procedure, they said) but i beat the conviction because i had the money to post the bail.
that's how race and money worked in my case.

[MercutioATC]

89. I'm white and I've been to court a couple of times...

This is a great example of what I'm talking about.

About 10 years ago, my (now) ex-wife was picked up for DUI. They had her dead to rights. Hell, she was verbally abusing the cops at the station when I picked her up. We paid $1k to an attorney, he went and spoke to the Judge, she plead guilty to reckless operation. Case closed.


Do you think the Judge would have talked to her personally and reduced the charge? No. It cost $1k to have an attorney who knew the Judge talk to him for five minutes to do that. What happened to people who didn't have the $1k? They didn't get their charges reduced and most of them were convicted of DUI.

Race wasn't the issue..there were plenty of other white people getting convicted. Money was the determining factor.

[noiretextatique]

90. i wasn't drunk

i was "driving while black," as yet, not an official "crime." i understand what you are saying, so please hear what i am telling you.

[ultraist]

32. I agree, the justice system is very racist and classist.

Many white collar crimes directly cause deaths. For instance, when Nestle executives caused the deaths of thousands of African babies, by having marketers go to local regions in Africa, dressed as doctors, to sell baby formula by convincing mothers it was healthier than breast feeding, they were merely slapped on the hand.

[Garth Beaumont]

25. Well said.........

thanks!

[noiretextatique]

35. it's the truth

isn't it?

[malaise]

54. Then you haven't seen the lawyer on TV

arguing that dear old Scotty is innocent.

[MercutioATC]

81. That's a far cry from Peterson getting clemency...

[Deja Q]

69. Perhaps they should. If the dealth penalty is a deterrant,

put it towards spineless greedy little wormy executives who bilk their employees out of everything they've got.

The fuckers are premeditatedly, and slowly, murdering their employees. Enron being a prime example.

With power comes responsibility. Misuse it, pay the price. It is ironic that those with no power get the worst offenses yet the most powerful could fuck a toddler until it was bloody raw and not get any punishment worth a damn (assuming he got any at all) whatsoever.

[MercutioATC]

82. So you ARE in favor of the death penalty in certain circumstances?

[Punkingal]

10. Thank you....

I would even venture to say a white man in exactly the same circumstances as Tookie would be granted clemency.

[MercutioATC]

16. Let's see what happens to Scott Peterson...I'll bet you're wrong.

For that matter, 10 of the last 12 people put to death in California were white...

[Punkingal]

49. I don't think you can compare the two...

Scott Peterson is not going to become an activist and get nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. And BTW, I don't think Scott Peterson will ever get clemency, because of the unborn child, no matter what he does.

[Texasgal]

63. You never know...

Since ANYONE can be nominated for the nobel peace prize...

[Feron]

12. Former Governor Edwin Edwards would disagree...

He'll be in jail until 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Edwards#Indictment_and_Conviction

[Leilani]

13. This is not based on race

It's celebrity & money.

OJ Simpson, the most famous killer in recent history, is still golfing.

[MrMonk]

19. O.J. was acquitted, not pardoned.

[noiretextatique]

24. more famous than bush & bushco?

and they are still running the country :shrug:

[johnnie]

15. You are comparing two different issues

I know this isn't what you are talking about but I thought I would post it anyway.


Race of Death Row Inmates Executed Since 1976

BLACK 338 34%
HISPANIC 63 6%
WHITE 579 58%
OTHER 22 2.3%


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=5&did=184

[Cleita]

26. Yes, and since the Black population is I believe 13%

doesn't this make this unfair? If it were applied across the board, then the Blacks getting the DP would be only 13% representing the demographic of their population.

[MercutioATC]

29. Yeah, but those Hispanics are getting off easy...

:silly:

[Cleita]

44. Sorry I didn't have the population number for Hispanics as

compared to their DP percentage so that's why I didn't mention them. But I'm sure it's disproportionate too.

[MercutioATC]

46. Yeah, the general population is something like 13% Hispanic.

Their execution rate is disproportionately LOW.

Lower, in fact than the rate for whites...

[johnnie]

34. I would rather see the DP abolished

I dislike thinking of it as a racial issue before thinking of it as a humanity issue.

[TahitiNut]

30. "In 82% of the studies. race of the victim was found to influence ...

"In 82% of the studies {reviewed}, race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."
- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990

[noiretextatique]

40. what an annoying thing

the facts of life in these united states :hi:

[TahitiNut]

41. Now, now ... don't aruba it in, luv.

:evilgrin:


:loveya: :hug:

[noiretextatique]

65. righto

:rofl: i was just saying...it must be great to be able to just dismiss those annoying little things (facts) and pretend everything is just peachy.

[TahitiNut]

86. I always gotta wonder why any sane person would do that to themselves.

(i.e. live in a 'manufactured' reality ... ignoring those 'inconvenient' facts.) It seems like real self-abuse to me - the kind than can actually cause permanent damage. Maybe it's just be cause I think there's something in us called a 'soul' ... that's pretty special and worth nurturing. Reality - wotta concept! :crazy:

[Silverhair]

23. By definition, a white-collar crime is a non-violent crime.

Non-violent crimes are not death penalty crimes. You don't execute embezzlers.

[ultraist]

37. White collar crimes do cause deaths in many instances

http://www.corporatepolicy.org/issues/crimedata.htm

Corporations also cause more violence and death than street criminals. The U.S. national murder rate reported by the FBI is about 16,000 each year.

Compare that to the number of people who die rom corporate-related causes each year:

** Over 5,000 workers are killed on the job each year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Millions more become sick or injured each year. A group of occupational health and safety investigators estimates that in 1992 alone there were 66,971 total job-related injury and occupational disease deaths. (See J. Paul Leigh, Ph. D., et al., Costs of Occupational Injuries and Illnesses. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2000.)

** Another study estimates that 70,000 Americans die annually from product-related accidents, and millions more suffer disabling injuries at a cost of over $100 billion in property damage, lost wages, insurance, litigation, and medical expenses. (Brobeck and Averyt, The Product Safety Book, New York: Dutton, 1983, reported in David O. Friedrichs, Trusted Criminals: White Collar Crime in Contemporary Society, Belmont, CA: Wadsworth Publishing, 1996.)

** These numbers do not include the thousands of annual deaths caused by cancer and other diseases linked to corporate pollution, defective products, tainted food and addictive substances such as tobacco, and other causes. An estimated 553,400 people in the U.S. died from cancer in 2001. (See J. NCI:93:10, ‘Stat Bite” May 6, 2001). Using conservative estimates put forth by those who dismiss environmental causes of cancer as negligible (i.e. 2 percent of the total incidence of cancer deaths), author Sandra Steingraber calculates that at least 11,098 people died from cancers due to environmental causes (i.e. industrial pollution) in 2001. (Living Downstream: An Ecologist Looks at Cancer and the Environment, New York: Addison-Wesley, 1997, pp. 268-9.)

[noiretextatique]

38. violence

losing one's life savings is probably experienced as violence.

[bosspepper1]

27. What a crock!!!

We are soooooooo passed those days...

[TahitiNut]

42. Let me guess. You're white. (Nothing personal, of course. I am, too.)

:shrug:

[bosspepper1]

51. Yep....

and that has NOTHING to with a murderer paying the price.

[noiretextatique]

66. yep...since "we" are sooo past those days

that must be nice for you folks.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. But white collar crimes are not capital offenses

I'm anti death penalty, but I don't quite get the parallel.

Ted Bundy was white.

[ultraist]

39. Corporate criminals that cause deaths should be charged criminally

But they are not. See the institutionalized racism and classism in that?

[MercutioATC]

48. They ARE charged criminally.

What's the disconnect here?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. I agree in theory but

I could use an example. Can you think of any? I mean don't spend a lot of time and research or anything, but I think, say, Enron and I don't think of deaths. Do you mean Halliburton?


tg

[ultraist]

53. This case for example

A pool company decided not to repair a part they knew was faulty because it adversely affected their bottom line. As a result of their gross negligence, several children were killed by the faulty part. NONE of those executives who made that decision, were charged criminally. Rarely, are they, if ever.

Or cases where corporate executives are aware of deadly toxins in the work environment but go ahead and sacrifice workers' lives to maintain their fat salaries.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. Okay. Great example.

Thanks. I agree. Accountability should have no race.

[alarimer]

47. I bet you money Libby will be pardoned

And rove too if he is ever convicted of anything.

[ShaneGR]

52. Ermm, white collar criminals don't brutally murder people....

Not to take away from white collar crime (Which is prosecuted a plenty just ask Elliot Spitzer) but there's a big difference between that and the armed robbery and execution of 4 people.

[Clara T]

84. Of course they do- en masses

There just happens to be layers to it, it is done indirectly. Or sometimes not so indirectly.

How about Bhopal and Dow chemical?

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. Absurd comparison.

Not even like comparing apples and oranges. More like comparing apples and pork brains. The two issues aren't remotely related. If Williams were, say, a white skinhead gang leader convicted of four brutal murders, do you think he'd be getting clemency? Something tells me the answer is no.

[aPOSITIVEwin]

59. Do you really think so?

When was the last white prisoner pardoned on California's death row?

[LeftCoast]

61. A Caucasian White Collar Criminal would not be found guilty

in the first place.

[Texasgal]

62. I'll be interested in what happens

when Scott Petersons time comes. :shrug:

[AZBlue]

64. Murder and gang activities aren't white collar crimes

I see your point but the comparision is a little off.

[noiretextatique]

70. a corporation knowingly markets a deadly product

a product that will in effect, murder. the corporation decided to sell the product anyway, figuring the cost of being sued for wrongful deaths will be less than the cost of fixing the product.
that is the business of murder.

[AZBlue]

76. Hey, if you can prove that President A knew and still manufactured it

I think they should be charged with murder as well. Why wouldn't they be??

Unfortunately they don't often leave a provable trail.

[noiretextatique]

77. they count on people dying, for one thing

also deep legal pockets to crush those who live. yep...it would be great to see more death-pushers convicted of murder.

[Deja Q]

67. Especially when the white CEO does things to hurt his employees...

in enron's case there were thousands... hurting can be far, far worse than killing - even if the killing was vicious and brutal. People losing their hard-earneed pensions so that little facefuck ken lay can keep it all is beyond depraved. But is the norm.

No argument from me on this, and while this entire thread should be kept unrelated to tookiemania, I am damn grateful you posted it.

Nominated too.

[Zynx]

74. White collar is by definition not violent crime, let alone DP crime.

[Redstone]

78. Ahem. "white collar crimes," althought felonies, generallly don't

get a death sentence.

Redstone

[lynne]

79. Comparing white collar crime to multiple murders -

- is a bit like comparing apples to elephant turds.

[noiretextatique]

91. the pinto and the dalkon shield = multiple murders

excusing those murders as some special class of "white collar crime" is ridiculous. premediated murder, even in pursuit of the alimighty dollar is still murder.

[FreedomAngel82]

92. Oh of course

Sometimes though with rape they get thrown in. Here in my town on the local news this guy was just recently released today after tweny years of being in jail. Why was he released? Because the girl who accused him of rape was a liar and it was just now known. The death penalty, along with voting machines, should be banned from this country!

[rumpel]

93. White collar criminals hardly ever even get sentenced to jail, even when

their actions result in hardship and suffering or even death to people. When there is no direct contact by the perpetrator with the victim, peoples anger and intolerance to "evil" does not seem to translate into the cheering and celebrating we see tonight.
No one has a right to take another's life.