Tookie Williams is completely and totally beside the point

[WilliamPitt]

I have stayed out of this debate for one basic reason: My mind simply cannot be changed about the death penalty. The circumstances of Tookie cannot change it. The circumstances of anyone on death row cannot change it.

Nothing, but nothing, can change it.

Taking this individual and their circumstances or that individual and their circumstances, and trying to craft an argument about that individual, is wide of the point. One person's circumstances may absolutely help one argument and hinder another. Ergo, basing the argument on one person does not work. By this, I mean it does not work with me.

1. The state should not kill people.

2. Death is a cop-out.

On the #2 point first: If someone murdered my mother in cold blood, was tried and convicted, shuffled through the appeals process and ultimately slated for the spike, I would be outside the jail protesting. I would stand before the court and beg for his life to be spared.

Why? Because otherwise he'd be dead and would not have to face 50 years in a cage for what he did. He would not suffer the consequences of his actions in a living, breathing, sentient way. He would be getting off easy. Also, he would not be given an opportunity to repent. He would not be given an opportunity to spend 50 years in a cage praying for forgiveness, should that repentance come along.

As for the state killing people, I give you the Word: "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Vengeance is not yours, not mine, not Arnold's, not a bunch of self-righteous Jesus-shouters who think they are on armchair-to-armchair relations with God. Only God gets to kill people. Some here do not believe in God, and that is totally fine, but I do. This is my own opinion.

I'm sorry Tookie Williams made so many bad choices in his life. I'm sorry our society deems it proper to slay him. I'm sorry for the families of his victims, who will be denied the knowledge that he is in a cage for the rest of his life, left to write within himself for what he has done.

But Mr. Williams, or any other example you put forth, won't change my mind. The state should not kill people, and death is a cop-out. That's it. That's all.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Right-on, Will.

Yes, Tookie Williams did some horrible things, but the state should not kill. Not in my name.

[SidDithers]

2. Well said...

:toast:

Sid

[Walt Starr]

3. You're entitled to that opinion

as I am entitled to a completely different opinion on the issue.

[400Years]

6. duh!

[Walt Starr]

9. The insinuation recently has been

that I am not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. Ahem.

[johnnie]

4. On this I agree with you 100%

I have basically stayed out of this debate here also. My mind is made up and killing is not part of what I find the right thing to do.

[ET Awful]

5. Well-said Will. n/t

[Gato Moteado]

7. well said, will

and killing the killer doesn't bring back the lives of the victims.

[Kadie]

8. Very well said.

[tk2kewl]

10. I agree wholeheartedly with one addition...

for those who don't buy into your first premise.

The State and its judicial system are run by fallible human beings. And in my opinion, wrongly executing one single innocent person is a monumental travesty of justice a civilized society cannot tolerate.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

30. Thank You, Will. And your additional point, TK2 is key, as well.

"The State and its judicial system are run by fallible human beings. And in my opinion, wrongly executing one single innocent person is a monumental travesty of justice a civilized society cannot tolerate."

It needed to be stated twice! Peace

[mcscajun]

41. And again...One Innocent person wrongly executed puts the lie to

the rightness of the Death Penalty. I agree wholeheartedly with Will and TK2. I'm not a God-believer, but all the rest of what they said speaks for me as well. It's not a deterrent, it's not justice, it's eye-for-an-eye Old Testament style vengeance. It's unevenly applied, the justice system is imperfect, and mistakes have been, and will continue to be made. So long as the prisoner lives, mistakes can be corrected; after execution, all the apologies and hand-wringing in the world won't matter.

Arguments about individuals aren't the point, the Practice of the DP is the point. Life imprisonment or life in an insane asylum, as appropriate, does it for me. Arguments about "what if it was your mother-brother-husband-child" hold no currency with me on this: It's just because of the raw, emotional state of the relatives of victims that it is vitally important that the state punishes; we do not want personal, vigilante style, visceral, emotional judgments to rule, but law.

The sooner we are rid of the DP across the country, the better, IMO.

[4morewars]

11. Right on, Will

I couldn't have said it better, which is why I have stayed out of this one.

[LondonReign2]

12. Why does God get to kill people?

Seriously, what sort of God gets to kill people?

I guess, then, our society is a reflection of this so-called "God".

[underpants]

13. The Death penalty is wrong in every way

it doesn't matter how horrible a person they are or how horrible* their crime was.

*I have to say that I am amazed at the darkness of some people's hearts and minds in conjuring up the most horrific crime they can imagine (usually on your mother). Use that on anyone who brings this up "Hold it wait-before you go off on some self gratifying murderous sexual fantasy let me say 'Spare me'...." and then tell then that the person and the crime don't matter. IF it were my family..NO HOLD IT WAIT- we don't do things that way we take our time and cool our heals before we rush to judgement and carry out some weird vengeance thing.

[chelsea0011]

14. An accused rapist was recently set free after 24 years in prison

when DNA showed him innocent. The state makes mistakes and also frames people for crimes. The death penalty has no recourses. And once you are executed, there can be no attempt to ever look to see if someone was indeed innocent. I see so many being released now due to DNA that I can't help but believe innocent people have been put to death by the state. You are right. The state should never be in the business of killing people.

[stepnw1f]

15. What a Waste...

the guy was actually doing something good while in prison too. What a fuckin waste.

[Sleepless In NY]

16. All the attention on this while bush calmly announces we killed

30,000 Iraqis. 30,000! It's almost as if arnie and bush planned the timing of the announcements to take the focus off. We have commmitted a slaughter for no good reason. And it pains me to think that people are not more upset about that. Sorry about Tookie but 30,000 dead? He made his choice..the Iraqi people didnt. Repukes are the masters of bait and switch.

Bush Says 30,000 Iraqis Killed in War
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Bush_Administration

[TornadoTN]

17. Good points, however

The problem isn't Tookie Williams, its the Death penalty in general. By attaching the "anti-death penalty" movement to Tookie Williams, we are not doing our side, or our views, any credit and only further marginalizing any point we may have. Tookie Williams is not the angel that so many people are painting him out to be.

Tookie Williams was sentenced to die for his crimes (which he hasn't expressed any remorse for, by the way). Until we are able to break through and put an end to the death penalty as a punishment, this is going to keep happening.

[Sleepless In NY]

19. All the attention on this while bush calmly announces we killed

30,000 Iraqis. 30,000! It's almost as if arnie and bush planned the timing of the announcements to take the focus off. We have commmitted a slaughter for no good reason. And it pains me to think that people are not more upset about that. Sorry about Tookie but 30,000 dead? He made his choice..the Iraqi people didnt. Repukes are the masters of bait and switch.

Bush Says 30,000 Iraqis Killed in War
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Bush_Administration

[Just Me]

20. I'm sorry, too, Will. I'm sorry our country still approves of killing,...

,...as a means of acquiring "justice". I don't see "justice", I see vengeance.

I used to believe a common perception among our people was that, any human being CAN change, CAN redeem him/herself, and we, as a society, supported a person's potential.

I was wrong.

[savemefromdumbya]

21. Death is not a punishment?

Yes, death is the easy way out for a criminal. Criminals should be locked up and not let out so they don't do it again. If they are mentally ill they should be treated.

[savemefromdumbya]

22. Death is not a punishment?

Yes, death is the easy way out for a criminal. Criminals should be locked up and not let out so they don't do it again. If they are mentally ill they should be treated.

[Beam Me Up]

23. Agree. No death penalty for anyone. eom

[Punkingal]

24. Well, thank you, for saying it so well....

And I agree with you completely. And I have had a close family member who was a victim of murder. Killing the killer doesn't make it better.

[dsc]

25. I don't think anyone has a problem with principled opposition

to the death penalty. I think most people's problems with the various save Tookie threads was the revisionist history contained within them. I also think he should have been spared as I don't agree with the death penalty. But we shouldn't tell lies even for a worthy goal.

[WilliamPitt]

27. That's definitely part of what I mean

when I say this person's circumstances or that person's circumstances are beside the point. Arguments can go either way, and facts can be manipulated one way or another.

The entity itself is the wrong, all by itself.

[dsc]

44. facts are malleable but only to a point

either the jury had blacks on it or it didn't. (It did). Either he committed the crimes or he didn't. (the evidence he did is overwhelming). I think he should have been spared but certainly he shouldn't be spared above other people.

[Beelzebud]

26. Agreed.

I personally think Tookie is lower than pond scum.

That will not change my views on the death penalty.

The Death Penalty is wrong.

[Cleita]

28. A point made on Al Franken's show this morning

was that the death penalty is unevenly applied and more minorities will be put to death than the majority of white people.

[texpatriot2004]

29. Yep. "Killin' is wrong. Whether I do it. Or you do it." Dead Man

Walking.

[myrna minx]

31. Hear, hear.

:cry: There is much bloodlust here and it makes me cry for our nation. I can't believe how much glee folks are expressing about state sponsored execution. Yeah, how proud are we to have peers such as Saudi Arabia, China and Iran. :cry:

[Silverhair]

32. Sorry Will, I disagree. Tookie IS the point.

However, I respect you in your stance. You have been consistently courteous and have not tried to claim that Tookie was innocent.

[WilliamPitt]

34. I never thought he was

I weighed his work while in prison, to be sure.

But the point isn't him.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction.... The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

- Martin Luther King Jr.

[Silverhair]

61. I understand where you are coming from.

I just disagree. Since neither of us will convince the other, then let us agree to disagree.

[IndyOp]

75. I toast your King with a Solzhenitsyn...

The chain reaction of evil: The impulse to kill the murderer is the same impulse that caused the murderer to kill.

The impulse to kill the murderer is: Justice. Closure. Some people don't deserve to live.

This is the same impulse that would have lead the murderer to kill: Justice. Look at everything that other people had that he deserved. He deserved to have what he could steal. Anyone who tried to stop him didn't deserve to live.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago (1973)
It was granted to me to carry away from my prison years on my bent back, which nearly broke beneath its load, this essential experience: how a human being becomes evil and how good. In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments. It was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the first stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil.

Where is the murderer in this quote? "In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments."

Where is the person who commits capital punishment? "In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments."

My hunch is that those who commit capital punishment believe that their hears are the 'best' with only a small corner of evil and the murderer's heart is 'overwhelmed by evil' without even 'one small bridgehead of good'.

Me: I think the fact that the line between good an evil oscillates is the most important fact.

The line separating good and evil passes right through every human heart, it passes through all human hearts - and this is why evil is a chain reaction. We dampen the reaction in ourselves to dampen it in others, we fuel the reaction in ourselves and it is fueled in others.

Mitasukye Oyasin.

[goclark]

84. If I saw the KKK kill someone in my family,

I would be opposed to the Death Penalty.

I don't feel that I am in any way qualified to determine if someone should be put to death.

I also do not feel that the State, Arnold or anyone on DU could possibly be qualified to decide the merits of anyone being put to death.

I prefer to let Martin Luther King's WORDS and his DEEDS be my moral compass.......

(He could have written these same words this morning,they are everlasting and especially Words that IMO Democrats should live by)

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction.... The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."
- Martin Luther King Jr.

This country is in a dark abyss of annihilation.

[pberq]

105. Right on - Will!

That MLK quote is outstanding - never seen it before. When the U.S. grows up, that will be the basis for our policies on all issues.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." This is the key point. When the state plays God and kills people, it is out of line.

[northzax]

42. yes.

no matter how evil someone may be (and I haven't actually followed this case very much) the State does not have the right to actively seek their death. period.

There is no good reason to discriminate between a passive death sentance (life without parole) and an active death sentance. Why bother? with the existance of an active death penalty, the passive death penalty is for people the State does not have the political will to kill. According to Amnesty International, 2225 teenagers are serving LWOP sentences in the US. That is 2225 passive death sentences handed out by states without the will to actually kill them. There are close to a million people serving LWOP sentences in the US. That's a million people the state has sentenced to death without the will to carry out the sentences.

It is my belief that if we have an active death sentence, then there is no need for any sentence to exceed 20 years. If the person cannot be rehabilitated within 20 years, then they never will be, might as well kill them, that's what we want. why hold people until nature kills the/m? it's really quite silly, when you think about it, and lets the system discriminate more easily. Make a jury decide: should this person get a 20 year sentence, or death? that would work for any sentence over 20 years under current law. If someone is not ready to reenter society, let's just kill them and get it over with.

[robbedvoter]

43. No one claimed innocence. Redemption was on people's minds.

And on mine - justice should NOT be in the business of revenge. Not the purpose of punishment.

[Silverhair]

62. Several claimed innocence, and lied about it to push the idea.

And then when they were presented with proof of their lies, they ignored the proof and continued to lie and claim innocence.

[Just Me]

78. No. This is about much more than that. It's about US as a civil people.

We cannot possibly claim we are committed to human rights or assert that we are somehow morally superior when we adopt a law that advances death as punishment ESPECIALLY when the facts show such punishment FAILS to accomplish what we "say" we seek to advance: justice. There is absolutely NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that executions advance justice in this country. N-O-N-E!!! Unless, of course, "justice" really means "vengeance" in our culture. If that is so, then, we have no business holding ourselves out as either committed to human rights or morally superior to any other individual or culture or country that murders others for vengeance.

[Silverhair]

80. It definately stops Tookie from every killing again. NT

[Just Me]

86. Doesn't stop us or the state from doing so.

Or anyone else for that matter.

What "justice" does execution accomplish?

[hiaasenrocks]

73. There were some people here claiming he was

framed and that he never received a fair trial. When pressed, they would not offer specific evidence of this. They would simply respond with, "I hope you are never wrongly accused of a crime...."

And they posted numerous times linking to articles that promoted theories of this defendant's innocence.

The two DUers who did this the most are the two who started most of the "Save Tookie" threads, so I won't name them here, but you can certainly find out who they were/are.

[Just Me]

85. ONLY to the extent that he has a role in igniting the debate,....

,...about what we really believe and who we really are and what we actually advance. His existence has forced us to look,...at ourselves.

Do we REALLY believe executing other human beings solves any of our problems? Does KILLING for punishment truly deliver justice (in spite of persistent evidence otherwise)? Do we believe in human potential: the potential to change, make amends, and engage in positive contributions to society (let's leave the mass-murderers-in-charge out of this conversation)? Are we committed to sustaining human life even in the face of our own weakness to act on revenge?

Who are we? What do we REALLY believe and what do we REALLY represent. Are we serious about our commitment to human potential/possibility/worth or do we attach more value to our personal emotional state of revenge?

It's hugely important that we talk about these basic, moral issues.

[tjdee]

33. Exactly.

I, like you, have stayed out of this mostly.

But I agree, mostly. I cannot say what I'd feel if I were in the victims' families place.

It seems just very wrong for the government to kill people--for killing people. :crazy:

[ClayZ]

87. The death of Tookie will not make them feel better.... It simply won't.

"Mercy" is what we all need. The families of those murdered need mercy...

[lynne]

35. It's a little late -

- to debate right vs. wrong opinion of the DP for Tookie.

Those against the DP should be lobbying their state government to have it removed permanently instead of attempting stays and clemency for every person on death row. Tookie is a perfect example of a criminal for whom stays and clemency just didn't apply and the only way to have prevented this (other than the obvious that he not have committed the crimes at all) would be to have changed the law.

[Just Me]

46. It's about the right vs. wrong of executing human beings.

Killing for vengeance: that's what the death penalty amounts to.

The death penalty has NOT deterred violent crimes (we rank NO. 1 in the world for that).
The death penalty makes NO ONE WHOLE.
The death penalty may NOT actually be a punishment (who knows what death actually brings,...for many, it's relief from suffering).
The death penalty requires the violation of human rights.
The death penalty requires advancing killing, a moral and ethical wrong.
The death penalty risks extinguishing the life of an innocent person.
The death penalty fails the advancement of western civilization.

[lynne]

58. And none of that makes any difference -

- until such time as you change the law. It's ALL about the law. Not about if the DP is right or wrong or a violation or not a punishment. Good points all, but worthless unless they are used to change the law.

This debate is too late for Tookie. For those who really feel the DP is wrong, then you need to take action to change the law or it will happen again.

[Just Me]

70. And, it is the debate about the legitimacy of that law that deserves,...

,...our attention, the American people's attention. The revival of a serious and thoughtful debate about the law pertaining to the DP DOES make a difference, a HUGE difference to the evolution of our country and our humanity and the sincerity of our commitment to human rights.

[Seabiscuit]

103. You forgot one: the death penalty can't rehabilitate the criminal.

It does, however, save the state lots of money. That, and vengeance, seem to be the only realistic "justifications".

The chief argument of proponents that the death penalty deters crime, has been demolished in numerous studies.

[cornermouse]

36. I would add something.

The kids that Tookie may have reached are going to see this and draw their own conclusions which won't be pre-scripted by the right.

The conclusion a lot of them will draw is that trying to change their lives for the better is wasted effort. They have nothing to gain from better behavior. The long term implications of that are rather frightening.

[Beaverhausen]

49. This is exactly what I have been thinking too.

:hi:

[bosspepper1]

37. God will have thelast vengeance

and, while you quote.."an eye for an eye...." He will go peacefully while his victimss did horrendously... hardl fair at all...

[GumboYaYa]

38. Yeah you right...preach on brother....

The Death Penalty is wrong. End of argument!!!!

[kcwayne]

39. But Will, you contradict yourself

You state that you would want the murderer of your mother to get life imprisionment because death is too easy. So your form of vengence is to insure that the perpetrator gets years of suffering for their act.

And then you dip into the religion bag and pull out the "Vengeance is mine" passage.

So is vengeance yours, or is it the Lord's?

My argument against the death penalty is even more basic than yours, because there is only one point. The state is too incompetent to make a decision which is irreversible. They have proven their incompetence repeatedly, and to save an innocent life, society must be willing to tolerate keeping miserable scumbags incarcerated for life.

[WilliamPitt]

40. I was speaking of the ultimate vengeance

which is the point of that verse.

The end-point of your argument, its attempt to point out a contradiction in my words, would have me ultimately arguing against prison time for anyone and for any crime. That's patently absurd.

I'm talking about death.

[kcwayne]

60. Ultimate vengeance is not the point of the verse, and I stand by my

point.

Romans 12:19-21

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave itto the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



As you can see this passage is not specific to ultimate vengeance but is generic.

The point of my argument had no chess play, it is quite simple. You are arguing on the one hand that only a diety should take vengeance, while simultaneously arguing for your own preferred form of vengeance. The only way you would end up arguing that no one should be jailed from that starting point would be if you were as stubborn and ignorant as George Bush and decided to stay the course no matter what illogical precipice you found yourself on.

And you sir, are no George Bush. Thankfully.

[WindRavenX]

45. oddly

This got left out in the discussion these past few days.

I agree completely. It's not about the person--it's about the system.

[Carni]

47. IMO This makes a martyr out of the guy

I don't know that much about the case so maybe I should keep my mouth shut but I don't believe this man should be put to death/partially because he seems to have attempted to help kids stay out of his situation since his incarceration (is at least making an attempt to right his wrongs) and further because I am not convinced he's guilty--lastly I am anti-death penalty except for in extreme cases of people like Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer etc. (serial killers)

All of the above aside the execution of this man IMO will make him a martyr and may stir up further violence racially etc.

I am disappointed that there is no clemency for this man--I just have a bad gut feeling about this.

[ismnotwasm]

48. That expresses how I feel

I've also stayed out of the "Tookie" threads. I am against the death penalty, for any number of ideological and emotional reasons, but I have a couple of practical ones as well

I used to say until the day until we either do it or don't (death penalty) the never-ending years of appeals and stays and denials will go on and on. Tookie's gonna die, and we'll hear about it until the next Tookie. The next Tookie might live in a state where the govener was more disposed to clemency. Life and death in ideology, in the politics of justice. (Gary Ridgeway unless he gets killed in prison, is going to live for a long time.) If we had no death penalty, that wouldn't be a consideration. Life in prison without the possiblity of parole--ever. That doesn't go on and on-- Except the inprisonment of the prisoner-- his life goes on. People say how much good "Tookie" was doing. Well maybe he was. He could have continued that in prison. Maybe he was, like some say, an unrepentent murdering assholes who didn't give a shit about anything but manipulation. He still would be in prison. He still wouldn't be able to go aything with his life BUT from prison. Nothing. EVER.

My daughter came back from her deployment in Afghanistan completely against the death penalty, because she saw the slope it slides down to when you give any government the power to kill for punishment. Before, she thought the death penalty was a just punishment for certain offences.

My change of heart came when I saw the drunken parties over the death of Ted Bundy. The laughter. The celebration. Like it was fun. There was no respect for anything, not justice, not the victims. It was a party. It reminded me of reading about the days when public hangings were practically a holiday. Bring the wife and kids. Have a family dinner afterwards. But that's more of a emotional response I had.

I don't want the government to have the power to kill. I don't want clemency to be used as political leverage.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

50. Thank you, Will.

Beautifully said.

[mitchum]

51. Will, that "50 years in a cage" sounds pretty damn sadistic to me

[WilliamPitt]

53. More or less sadistic

than a needle in the arm or the smell of pine oil in your lungs?

More sadistic than the long walk down the hall, getting strapped down?

Criminals deserve punishment. If someone killed my mother, as stated in the OP example, I'd want them punished. That isn't sadistic.

[mitchum]

56. Well, one of the options is certainly more protracted sadism...

isn't it?

[foreigncorrespondent]

52. Excellent post, Will!

Why? Because otherwise he'd be dead and would not have to face 50 years in a cage for what he did. He would not suffer the consequences of his actions in a living, breathing, sentient way. He would be getting off easy. Also, he would not be given an opportunity to repent. He would not be given an opportunity to spend 50 years in a cage praying for forgiveness, should that repentance come along.

And when a family faces the trauma of losing a loved one to murder, it also happens to be a life sentence for that family! If we are the ones who have to suffer, then why does the criminal who took our loved ones life not get to suffer? Rhetorical question for you, Will. :)

[Kazak]

54. 'Gotta agree. Hell, he probably does deserve to die...

That doesn't mean the state should be in the business of killing though... :shrug:

Once again, 'guess I'm just a librul commie pinko. :puke:

[gulfcoastliberal]

55. "The state should not kill people." Truer words never spoken.

Thank you for articulating such a simple concept that so many find hard to grasp and understand.

[Mr_Spock]

57. It's true, killing as a response to killing would leave no man alive...

As it says in my signature, "He who lives by the sword, shall die by it." There are other versions of this, but it's meaning is clear to anyone who spends a second to think about it.

[MrSlayer]

59. Will, I wish people would have made this the argument the whole time.

It's an argument that, even if I can't agree with, I at least respect. But trying to portray Tookie as some kind of innocent good guy who was railroaded by the racist system just stuck in my craw and I had to argue against it. It's what pisses me off about the Wesley Cook case as well. This whole situation was really blown out more than it should have been.

[WilliamPitt]

72. Yeah

Like I said, I stayed out of this one. I really don't know all that much about the case, to be frank. I know he founded the Crips, was convicted of killing four people, got sentenced, and has spent many years working to keep kids out of gangs. I know he was nominated for the Nobel.

He could be sitting in jail right now walking on water and healing the sick. Conversely, he could have stabbed two thousand people in the head, laughed all through his trial, and reveled in his evil. It doesn't matter what he did, or what I know about him. The state shouldn't kill people, and death is a cop-out.

By the way, I apologize for the Reagan thing. That was a crappy thing to do.

[MrSlayer]

74. That's ok man.

No biggie.

BTW I really enjoy your writing, keep up the good work.

[IndyOp]

79. I get your point - I got it more with OJ than with Tookie -

OJ was the killer no doubt and slick lawyers got him off and he should be rotting in jail. I did *not* understand why the African American community could 'pull the race card' when OJ was guilty of the murder of his own children.

What has happened in both cases is that these men have become symbols of the 100,000's (?) of African American men who have been imprisoned/killed who were not guilty, when white men who are guilty of the same or worse walk free.

Right now, post Katrina, with an ongoing war in which the economic-draft is live and well, a crappy economy in which decent jobs can't be found, a prison industry that needs bodies to make profits -- it is just too much to expect that Tookie's case is not going to draw to it the rage of people whose lives are daily impacted by racism.

If we could, as a nation, deal with all of the issues that feed racist attitudes and discriminatory behavior then the next "Tookie" or "Wesley" case would be argued more 'clearly' -- how long will that take?

[ScreamingMeemie]

91. There were a ton of posts in this light that were shot down as much

as the "Tookie is an innocent man" posts. I know, because I have carried this belief my entire life and some of the crap that has been tossed my way over this opinion has astounded me. People posted these sentiments and, in return, got the misuse of portraits of the victims as some sort of vindication. I wish I could believe that you would have understood, MrSlayer, but not once did I ever say Tookie was a good guy...and I didn't see you there with this statement those times. This situation wasn't blown out of proportion enough to do one bit of good towards abolishing a twisted punishment.

[goodhue]

63. Indeed

I couldn't agree more. I don't care who Tookie Williams is or what he did. He should not be killed by the state. Nor should anyone. It's pretty simple.

[WLKjr]

64. "Why do we kill people to show other people that killing.....

people is wrong?"


That's my question.


I agree with you on this one. The death penalty is a cop out.

[KittyWampus]

65. So How Many Other Death Penalty Cases Have You Posted At Length About?

Specifically?

I am also against the death penalty in all cases.

But I'm not interested in devoting any extra energy in trying to get clemency for one individual. Not going to happen.

Tookie set the wheels in motion, he's reaping the harvest he sowed himself.

[WilliamPitt]

69. Very few

I think I posted in some for McVeigh, way back when. He was the poster child for my argument that death is too easy an out. So is bin Laden, frankly.

[journalist3072]

66. What about the victims' families?

Sadly, I think that the families of Tookie Williams' victims are being forgotten in all of this.

Imagine the pain that they are probably still going through, to this day, over not having their loved ones with them any more.

I truly do applaud Tookie Williams for writing those books, and for subsequently denouncing violence.

But the fact remains that he is a convicted murderer.

And I, for one, am tired of seeing so many grieving mothers.

A good friend of mine just buried her son last week, as a result of violence. And I have seen how her heart is truly broken at this time.

I'm tired of seeing grieving mothers.

[Garbo 2004]

71. Will the families stop grieving their lost loved ones after the perp is

executed? CA's had the death penalty back in action for over 10 years. And we still have new grieving mothers and families every day as a result of violent crime. There's a hole in their lives and hearts that will never be filled no matter what form of retribution is taken.

[journalist3072]

77. True...their pain will never leave them

But it's about seeing the administration of justice.

All I know is that if that were my loved one he killed, I would want to see the administration of justice.

And that's not to say that we don't have problems with the death penalty. Although I am a proponent of the dealth penalty, I do believe there should probably be a moratorium put on it. It is a fact that more minorities are put on death row.

However, Tookie Williams committed horrendous crimes.

[hippywife]

93. But the administration of justice

is what this whole thing is about from the beginning. If there truly was justice, no grieving mother would have to watch her child grow up in poverty and become an easy target for the gang mentality. There is a war on the streets of America because of the lopsided system that favors some over others. Many grieving mothers work their fingers to the bones to try to give their kid a better life and get them out of the environment that breeds this type of violence but for many there is no light at the end of the tunnel no matter how hard they work.

There are now children that know no other way of life. They have seen their parents and their siblings lost to street violence because of a system that is stacked against them from the beginning. For many it's the only thing they have ever witnessed or experienced.

If justice were truly administered, no child would go hungry or ever feel that they are worth less than someone else's child. Only then will the violence stop.

And I agree with what someone else posted, it will seem that no matter how much you turn your life around and try to keep others from making the same mistakes you did, in the end it won't really matter.

And to answer others that it is the law that needs to be changed instead of protesting individual cases, there are DP opponents that work on doing that all the time. They are why the DP doesn't exist in every state. It is an uphill battle all along the way.

[TahitiNut]

99. Are you saying that the families of victims in states and countries ...

... without the death penalty suffer more? How about the families of victims where the (convicted) murderer didn't get the death penalty? Do they suffer more?

Prove it.

I'd suggest that families who know that 'closure' occurs upon the conviction and incarceration of the murderer get to move on without waiting 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, or more years for the capital punishment necrophiles to get their rocks off suffer the least.

That "victims' families" argument is total horseshit.

[Avalux]

67. No one has the right to take another's life -

regardless of what they may have done. That's how I feel about it. Tookie Williams (and other murderers) will die someday, and if there is atonement, he will face his crimes then. But to take his life with an "eye for an eye" mentality is wrong.

I don't agree with the death penalty and I never will. Disgustingly primitive act, IMHO.

[bonito]

68. Another great post

My point is teaching forgiveness, because if this were taught, think of all violence and revenge that could have been avoided. But this has to start with forgiveness.
Theres nothing we can do about yesterday, but what we do today. Peace

[Deja Q]

76. Which should make us all wonder why this ONE case has become a circus?

Like I've been saying. It's distraction. From far worse things that will probably make a bunch of us long for death. (unless you like feeling intimidated all the time; in fear of even breathing in the wrong spot because only terrorists would breathe there... I don't. I rather like freedom and I'm out to enjoy life and its beauty. Can't even take a frigging photo without having the cops called on ya. Ridiculous and saddening. In a "free" country. Treated as if I am the terrorist and not Osama, where is he BTW? Looking for Nicole Brown-Simpson's killers?)

[WilliamPitt]

81. At least part of it

started because of that 1000th execution milestone we just passed.

[Yogi]

82. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

n/t

[Liberal In Texas]

83. I couldn't agree more. Once again, Mr. Pitt, you have hit the nail on the

proverbial head.

[sniffa]

88. oh great, another tookie monster

hopped up on tookie mania.



nominizzLed

[lonestarnot]

89. ooops wrong thread .....delete self...

???? Meoooowwww.

[ClayZ]

90. You are absolutely right!

:cry:

[Neshanic]

92. Krauthammer OK's torture, Mr. Williams wants a clean slate.

So Charles Krauthammer says that torture is fine by him if used for certain purposes. The amazing part is that he does not provide a flow chart of suspicions and the subsequent tortures that will reveal a dastardly plot. Somewhere in his febble little melon, he thinks that it will somehow be apparent as the torturer for hire has his hands on the car battery, and decides how long to shock the vitims genitals. It's an easy call for him, as the picture in the Sunday Times shows him gazing out a window with a chessboard in the foreground; obviuosly a nod to his great OZ like thinking and anaylitical skills.

What does this have with Mr. Williams? Lots. Just as Mr.Kuthammer has decided to be the moral nanny for the moraless, others here have decided that they too can provide the easy answers too if Tokie gets his just desserts or not. The horrors that Tokie committed, and admitted to or not, is where on the scale that Charlie "the wise" has in his rolodex, or in his Outlook, or scribbled on his favorite shit can cubicle wall at the Weekly Standard?

Once we decide that we know that we are absolutely right in taking a life for punishment, then we go over to Krauthammers alternate bizzare universe of pure good and all knowing wisdom for torture, what the well dressed Iraqi wears for those after hours visits from special friends with dog leashes, moronic imbecile backwoods nitwits, cans of excrement, and a good rape thrown in for good measure. From Krauthammers little gazing office,it's a hop, skip and a cattle prod over to Tokie, and the absoluteness of killing him.

I do not live in a world of absolutes. Krauthammer does, as does Mr, Williams. He will be executed by a belief that some poeple know all, and can parse death and torture like paperwork.

[JerseygirlCT]

94. Absolutely agree nt

[Clara T]

95. "I'm sorry Tookie Williams made so many bad CHOICES in his life." Myth

"Choice" is a smokescreen for greed and selfishness and for disguising built-in and inescapable inequalities and for defending those who leverage advantages of birth to amass wealth and power and a justification for barbarity and cruelty.

Teen age villagers from Afghanistan who are now being held in indefinite detention in violation of all law and codes of civilized conduct don't have much of a choice about anything. What choice? Don't be born Afghani? To one degree or another all of our "choices" are very tightly restricted, and those restrictions serve to buttress and defend wealth and power in the hands of the few, often immorally and illegally obtained.

How the police and employers view him...that inner-city kid...regardless of his lifestyle. individual choice is often used an excuse to dismiss institutional and cultural choices and realities...that's what the rw has been doing for 25+ years.
So even telling a kid from the hood to stay away from a particular lifestyle may do little to stop some cops from shooting him 41 times for reaching for his wallet because of what he symbolizes in american culture. and let's face it: if america wanted equal opportunity for all...there would be equal opportunity for all. regardless of what choices people make, there is only so much room at the top, and increasing a lot less in the middle.

nor will staying away from a lifestyle protect him from an employer who discriminates against some people, or a financial institution that routinely charges some people higher interest rates than others. honestly...the mythology of choice is largely a creation of those who insist on making poor choices for the vast majority of us, to continue to enrich themselves. a good example is this war in iraq. do most of the people who fight that war "choose" to do so, or were their choices limited (by povery, for example)? or lies? or faux patriotism? we know why cheney choose to support the war...halliburtion is making a killing off of it.

[Blue_Roses]

96. the whole thing is sad

Sad for the victims and their families. Sad for the waste of human life that could have been so much more. Sad for a screw-up system.

All of it's just so sad.:(

[Douglas Carpenter]

97. thank you -- that pretty much says it all

[AgadorSparticus]

98. We make god in the image of ourselves. It stands to reason that

we would take the next step and believe that we would KNOW as much as god. It is either pure narcissism or ignorance or both. But whatever it is, it is delusional.

And I can't agree more with your opinions.

[AtomicKitten]

100. My thoughts exactly.

Stay out of my brain, Mr. Pitt.

Also, the contemplation of clemency is a bullshit premise. There is no consideration of the crime or the person or the death penalty. The only consideration is just how the politician can use it to further him/herself politically. Period.

[EFerrari]

101. It is a cop out. And like all cop outs, it will come back

and bite us as a society in sensitive places.

Talking into the tunnel. Will keep talking.

Well done, Will. :hug:

[JVS]

102. Your points seem to contradict

If you believe that it is too easy for him to get to die rather than have to spend the next 50 years in prison (as you do in point #2), then you are seeking the vengence that you claim is not yours in point one.

Also, quoting religious scripture in order to claim that authorities have no right to execute is odd considering that the same scriptures advocate and/or tolerate the death penalty at other points. Might I suggest turning to the next chapter of the epistle that you quote. Scripture is at best ambiguous on capital punishment.

[willing dwarf]

104. We need a Restorative Justice Meme

Because as Einstein put it, "the problems that we have created cannot be solved at the level of thinking that created them...” we cannot expect to find the solutions to the problem of crime and the broken hearts it creates within our present punitive justice system.

Restorative justice is a model which draws the shattered community back together to restore order. It puts emphasis on the common good, seeking balance and peaceful resolution, valuing the wholeness of the community before all else.

It breaks my heart as I see how we continually try to find solace in the bitter well of hatred and vengence. There is no solace there-- and the violence inflicted in state sponsored killing, and in the ad hoc violence of gang against gang, family member upon family member...all violence insures further violence. The circle cannot be broken through vengence, and we deny our humanity if we claim that it can.

Restorative Justice would be a powerful tool for moving our society closer to the great society we can imagine it to be.

[FreedomAngel82]

106. Exactly

And what about forgiveness and people who change their lives? Don't they deserve to have a chance to be in society again? What does killing them do?
What about their families and friends? He could've had another trial and he could've appealed to get out of jail and go around to urban schools and showed them how to stay out of gangs and not go down his path. The death penalty is just legal murder. And yes, I've always said the death penalty is the easy way out since I believe in the afterlife and reincarnation. And since I believe in that what if the guy still has the same habits and his soul is the same in his new life if he chooses to come back to earth in another life? Wouldn't you want to work on helping someone if they choose help?