BREAKING: Arnold says no to Tookie (AP Link)

[Perky]

Williams Denied Clemency

By DAVID KRAVETS
Associated Press Writer





SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied clemency to Stanley Tookie Williams, the former gang leader whose case stirred debate over capital punishment and the possibility of redemption on death row.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WILLIAMS_EXECUTION?SITE=CATOR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-12-12-15-33-53

[sabate]

1. bye, bye....breathe deeply....NT

[lebkuchen]

10. I can't think of another democracy that has the death penalty

The death penalty is considered uncivilized by European standards.

"Breathe deeply" is not a comment any European would be likely to utter.

The US is in its own little macabre world. Glad I don't live there.

[Endangered Specie]

18. Try Japan

[lebkuchen]

24. ??

[Freddie Stubbs]

57. Japan has the death penalty

[lebkuchen]

62. How many do the Japanese execute compared to the US, per year?

[sabate]

22. Ah, European standards...

100 Years War

30 Years War

Pogroms against the Jews

World War I

World War II

The Holocaust

....let's talk about European standards.....

[lebkuchen]

N. America had a slave trade existence dating to the early 16th c.

up until the mid 19th century. Millions died enroute.

As for present day, the US killed nearly 4 million Southeast Asians in the 20th century, for no reason.

Europe has evolved. Why hasn't the US?

[MsTryska]

47. Are you saying Europe never had a slave trade?

Let's also not talk about the Brits and China, India the Caribbean, the french in Algiers, hell the Germans and their war on the jews.


come on now.


Europe is no more civilized or less savage than the US - it's only older.

[lebkuchen]

52. Are you saying America didn't? For 350 years?

with another 100 years of segregation/discrimination after that, and just 45 years of anything different?

Now the US has killed over 100,000 Iraqis with no end in sight. How dare you talk about Europe when the US is in the midst of "shake and bake" in the Middle East! Europe doesn't have capital punishment. The US does.

The US is uncivilized.

[MsTryska]

66. No of course not. i am perfectly willing to admit that

america had a slave trade.


i'm asking you to admit the same thing.


slavery has existed since the start of "civilization".


Vikings had them, Romans had them, hell even the Celts had them.

let's at least try to be intellectually honest.

[lebkuchen]

69. You're comparing the vikings to 19th century America?

Get a life.

[MsTryska]

76. get a life?

*lol* you act as if slavery is something only America has participated in.


and even with your talk of american slavery, you conveniently leave the brits, french and spanish, and their roles in trade out of it.


what are you driving at?

it's apparent you're not well versed in history, so what is your angle?

[RagingInMiami]

79. Everything we've done, we inherited from Europe, but ...

As Oscar Wilde said:

"America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between."

[sabate]

40. French anti-semitism

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14752

[sabate]

42. British Anti-Semitism

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_7_23_02td.html

[sabate]

43. Italian Anti-Semitism

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/rome_conference.asp

[sabate]

44. Yes, the Europeans have evolved....NT

[LincolnMcGrath]

48. I've seen that somewhere before......

hmm

[Todd B]

Top 12 countries w/ the most executions:

We're sure in with a class bunch, huh?

Kuwait (9+)
China (3,400+)
Iran (159+)
Singapore (6+)
Saudi Arabia (33+)
Vietnam (64+)
Belarus (5+)
Yemen (6+)
United States (59)
Pakistan (15+)
Egypt (6+)
Bangladesh (7+)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty#Scope_of_use

If the US goes though with this, how are we any better then those who we condemn?

How long until Hannity, Cosby, and the rest of the Faux News types set up camp in front of the prison so they can have a front row seat for this morbid display.

[incapsulated]

33. Right there behind China, Iran and Vietnam

Oh, the tragic irony.

[lebkuchen]

38. It was only until recently that we were executing juvenile offenders

putting the US in the company of Saudi Arabia and Nigeria.

I don't think the US executes the mentally ill anymore, but I'm not sure.

[ultraist]

71. The US executes mentally retarded people

And innocent people.

The DP is also applied in a very racist manner.

[rumpel]

2. Sad day.

[cantstandbush]

30. Is there a chance that they are sending an innocent man to death?

Why does he keep insisting that he is innocent?

I hate the death penalty. "Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. WOOOOOHOOOOOOO YAYYYYYY ALRIGHT!!! YIPPEEEEE!!! YEEHAAAAAAA!

:sarcasm:

(in response to the ludicrous, absurd, misguided, ignorant and flat out stupid other thread that was posted)

[kaneko]

7. Welcome back

to the barbary of state-sanctioned murder.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. I hate the death penalty

We need to get rid of it. Not long ago, earlier this month I believe, Rachel Maddow was reading about the death penalty and quoted saying more people today were against the death penalty than they were during the 90's.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

16. Welcome back?

When did we leave?

I can say unequivocally without reference to Mr. Williams' own deservedness to continue breathing that our willingness to engage in state-sponsored murder is a blot (another one) upon our national character.

[Warpy]

4. I'm saddened but not surprised

Musclehead can't afford to look soft on crime. His supporters already have their panties in a wad because he's appointed a Democrat to a post.

[FreedomAngel82]

15. And with that democrat

isn't she a lesbian too? Nothing wrong with that but the fundies must be up in arms over that one. I was surprised and wonder what's up. I guess she could do the job. :)

[Perky]

5. I am actually fairly indifferent

Says something about the death penalty's value I think.

[Codeine]

14. That's the most cogent comment I've heard.

I don't like the DP, but I won't shed a "Tookie Tear" tonight.

[Perky]

23. There is no deterrent value

Deterant valu presuppose that people have a moral core. It has no reall retrivutive value,. It offfers litttle solace to the victim's family.


At Best it has protective value in that it assure us that this one will never murder another again.

[Stand and Fight]

34. Unfortunately I am of a SIMILAR mindset.

I won't shed a tear, but I sure as hell don't feel the cause to celebrate as some here are surely doing.

[RebelOne]

60. I'm with you. I actually could care less. n/t

[glarius]

6. I suppose everyone is waiting breathlessly for the news of his last meal.

:sarcasm: ....I find the custom, or should I say ritual of the last meal to be completely disgusting....May he be forgiven for whatever he has done...and God rest his soul.....

[IndyOp]

8. I was just thinking last night,

Johnny Cash wore black in solidarity with the downtrodden, including men in prison, for whom he always had tremendous compassion. I was just thinking last night how much I admire Johnny and how much I admire the Reverend at my own Unitarian Church who has long served the prison community. My thanks to all who minister to those in prison.

Don't miss Mark Fiore's animation on Tookie:
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/12/08/fiorepokie.DTL>

Good time to watch or read "Dead Man Walking"
<http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1068779-dead_man_walking/>
<http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780679751311>

[Rainscents]

9. I have feeling, this will cuase up-rising with black people.

Not good, yes, it is very sad day.

[RagingInMiami]

11. If black people did not rise up after Katrina

Why would they rise up now?

Katrina was a crime against all black Americans, regardless of their criminal history.

[Rainscents]

35. I believe, Katrina was an real eye opener for many people and this

might put the icing on the cake. This is my personal opinion.

[RagingInMiami]

37. If history is any indicator

There have always been a series of injustices before inner city blacks began rioting. And it usually takes something like a police beating or court decision to set it off, leaving people wondering why all of a sudden.

But I don't this is going to be the icing on the cake. At least I hope not.

[Aretha]

63. Nope

Much of the black community will be very happy to see a founder of the Crips pay the ultimate price. the fact is that the Crips, the Bloods and other, smaller street gangs have taken more black lives and done more harm to the American black community, both culturally and physically, in the last 40 years than the KKK and all of the other white supremacist groups combined have ever even dreamed of doing. Anyone who thinks that the black community (as opposed to some gang thugs) is going to rise up in solidarity with Williams is deluded. Anyone who believes this should go sit in a barbershop or in a neighborhood bar in any inner city neighborhood and you will quickly be disabused of any such notion (which is an insult to both the intelligence and basic decency of inner city blacks).

[RagingInMiami]

67. Just got off the phone with a friend who lives in Crenshaw

And he said there has been absolutely no talk of rioting. It's just media hype.

[slackmaster]

65. I doubt that most blacks will see this as an injustice

People don't automatically identify with any individual of the same race. Black people have more reason to hate Tookie Williams than others do.

[ultraist]

81. Do you speak for the Black community? The NAACP is for clemency

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/special4/article.adp?id=20051206194409990006

NAACP Leader Urges Clemency for Williams

AP
Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, speaks during a news conference Tuesday, Dec. 6, 2005, in Los Angeles. The group is trying to urge Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams who is scheduled for execution Dec. 13. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - Calling death row inmate Stanley Tookie Williams a "secret weapon" for helping black men stay out of gangs, the head of the NAACP traveled across California on Tuesday to rally support for clemency for the convicted killer.

Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said executing Williams on Dec. 13 would be a mistake.

"He is our secret weapon to help young African-Americans avoid gangs," Gordon said. "We want to save his life so he can save the lives of others."

[slackmaster]

17. Many of the Crips' victims are black

Perhaps most of them.

[Perky]

28. I suspect 95% of them are black

[coalition_unwilling]

20. As a resident of Los Angeles, CA

this is something we have been worrying about for the past couple weeks.

Myself (caucasian), I think an insurgency among not just blacks but the urban poor in general would be a welcome conterpoint to all the death-mongering that has been going on here on AM talk radio (except for Air America, that is)

The idea that that steroid-addled sexually harassing clown should have the final say-so on anyone's life or death should repulse any thinking\feeling human being.

[Connie_Corleone]

39. Thanks for reminding me.

I have to leave work early so I can go riot for a man who killed people and helped start a gang that promoted young black men to kill each other, and then wrote some books that sold 300 copies.

[Endangered Specie]

46. Once again, I fail to see how race is a factor here

[oasis]

58. That's what Arnold figured. Black riots will help him get conservatives to

the polls. Blacks arent voting GOP, so it's a win/win for the governor.

[ClayZ]

12. Schwarzenegger is a PIG! He will regret this decision!

:cry:

[Codeine]

19. Why?

Politically it was the only decision he could make. Morally I'm not sure he's capable of regret. Legally it's his right.

[David Dunham]

Remember that Clinton in 1992 allowed a mentally retarded man to die

in the electric chair in Arkansas to help Clinton look tough on crime for the presidential election.

[coalition_unwilling]

29. And don't forget Waco and the Branch Davidians

where 14 children died in a fire that began after the FBI's Behavioral Scientists had warned its Hostage Rescue Team of that probable outcome and that the siege could be ended by simply waiting out Koresh.

Clinton has never given a satisfactory explanation for his decision on Ricky Rae Rector (IQ=69) or Waco, IMHO.

[ClayZ]

45. Well, then lets just keep KILLING PEOPLE..... WTF?

NOT in MY NAME! Thanks anyway!

[ananda]

21. Wouldn't it be nice if..

.. Gov. S had to pay for all his earlier crimes.

What's good for the gander is good for the girlie groper,
pot smoker, and abuser of steroids.

[Perky]

27. What;s the going rate these days

for copping a feel. cutting off a hand?

[theHandpuppet]

72. Speaking of which... has Ahnold's Nazi father ever expressed remorse?

And when will Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Rice express remorse for the thousands who have been killed in their name?

Has Colin Powell ever expressed remorse for My Lai or the lies he told to the U.N., ones that led to the deaths of thousands?

If we are going to start demanding remorse and admissions of responsibility then why not start at the top? What makes a Tookie Williams any more guilty of organized murder than that cabal of murderers now running this country?

Just wondering.

[mattclearing]

25. Did anyone honestly think he would stay this execution? n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

36. I wasn't sure how it would break

Political currents in California are swirling.

I'm hoping that if Tookie dies, we can build off this to re-call S in June,2006.

[mattclearing]

56. There's got to be a better issue to build on. n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

83. There were protests against the execution all over California

last night. I attended one in Westwood, CA. Speaking for myself only, I can say it was Schwarze-nazi's callousness and not-so-covert racism that got me off my duff. (I protested his appearance at Santa Monica College commencement last year and several other times also, but I came out for Tookie not because of Tookie per se, but because of my absolute disdain for Schwarze-nazi.)

[Endangered Specie]

26. Walkin the mile...

Nice to know that, once in a while; all the bullshit, all the publicists, all the propoganda, all the whining, and all the fakery cant get you out of what you had coming.

[Stand and Fight]

31. So be it. Another murder in a vicious cycle. Sad. n/t

[Berserker]

32. Hey Arnold

I see your still killing people except this time it's for real.

[lebkuchen]

41. Arnold is a sociopath. Vote him out in the next election.

I'll do my part across the pond. Get rid of the ass.

[oasis]

49. It's time for Rev. T.D. Jakes to intervene just as he did for Bush during

the Katrina aftermath. Jakes preaches about redemption, now here's a chance for him to walk the walk.

[MrSlayer]

50. They should televise the execution.

And play it in every school as an object lesson. Think gangs are cool? Think hurting people is cool? How cool is this?

It's the same reason they should show the war on TV uncut and unedited. A lot of people need to see the consequences up close and personal before they get it.

[Stand and Fight]

70. Whoa... Whoa...

I agree with you on the war, but this... You're way out there in far-left field on this one, MrSlayer.

The war -- yes. That bullshit won't stop till Americans get a rude awakening, but..

Showing school children an execution? This will likely push them in the direction of committing similar crimes, not away from it. Frankly, what you said is insane.

[ultraist]

75. Bring back public executions?

Yea, let's just hang that Black guy up by a rope in the town square, that'll teach 'em.

[Zodiak]

51. I think

That our society is barbaric indeed if every major state politician feels they need a human sacrifice to keep their jobs for a few more years.

That is what this is to me, human sacrifice. Other cultures chose the members of their enemies' army to take the knife, but now we choose those whom society has failed. We are no better, but we have better instruments of death.

Real civilized.

And I'm trying real hard to not say something snarky to all those on this thread who support this. I would daresay some take solace in it.

[CornField]

53. At least Arnold didn't keep everyone hanging on to the last second

I hope Williams can find his peace -- as I hope all concerned can.

[lebkuchen]

55. The US gets to do what it does best: perseverate on the last meal

while the rest of the country downs its latest Big Mac.

The US is a sick country.

[Fleshdancer]

54. Aside from the usual capital punishment debate....

What strikes me about this specific case is that keeping Tookie alive could (oddly enough) serve society better than killing him given his strong anti-gang message. I'm not usually one to be moved by stories of redemption, but this one is certainly unique. A man is dying tonight and it's odd to know before his death that the future movie about his life will most likely win awards. Just an odd observation.

I feel for his family and the family of those who died as a result of his actions. This is certainly a lose-lose sitaution for everyone.

[Javaman]

59. more of the repuke culture of life on display. pigs, all of them.

Oh and don't forget their bullshit compassionate conservatism.

I loath those people.

[Todd B]

68. Boy, want to how pro-life the conservatives really are?

Check out http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1539009/posts">Free Republic where they are positively *glowing* over this development (I know, I know - it's like watching a train wreck).

Sickening and revolting.

Doesn't the Bible say anything about 'loving thy fellow man' or 'cast not a judgment lest he be judged', anyways?

[Stand and Fight]

73. Well, DU is not without its hypocrisy.

Some DUers oppose the death penalty, but have little or no oppostion to abortion. The sad thing is that it's expected at FR, but to see it at DU is a wake-up call.

[Todd B]

77. Not to bring abortion in to this topic, but...

I think that the majority of people hold the position that abortion is more of a matter of personal freedom.

I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion. Personally I think that it should be rare, but laws should never be passed that would prevent someone from obtaining one.

In contrast, the death penalty hasn't shown itself to be a deterrent to violent crimes (in fact, more cases have shown up that the victim had been innocent). The death penalty is nothing more then a version of state sanctioned murder - how can we punish someone for doing something by doing the exact same thing to them and *not* be labeled as hypocritical? It's barbaric and cruel.

[Stand and Fight]

82. Correct. I am anti-abortion. But my personal freedom feelings win out.

So, as much as I personally GREATLY despise the practice, I refuse to sell out a woman's RIGHT to choose.

At the same time, I do see abortion as killing a living -- though not necessary sentient -- being.

[Thorandmjolnir]

61. I am so glad now!

Now there will be no more gang murders.
:sarcasm:

[Ekirh]

64. A last minute change of mind by Arnold

Not withstanding. . . what is done is done. I believe Tookie is guilty . .. but I hate the death penalty so I was hoping he get clemency. That's all I can really say.

[sabate]

74. Curtis Sliwa on Tookie

CURTIS SLIWA, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Sure, there is redemption, but what about the remorse? Four people were executed. Do you know their names? Do you know their families?

No, of course we don't, because we are spending all this time focused on the killer Tookie. And if he had that Bible in his hands, the New Testament says, remorse. Beg for forgiveness. This man has claimed he never killed those four. He's has heard Johnnie Cochran-style defense lawyers, dream teams, come together, try to collect evidence, go back into court.

And he's been rejected. Now, if he were to show to remorse, if he were to apologize for these executions, coldblooded, that he committed years ago, I might give it a second thought. But because he's written children's books? Because he has said creating the Crips was a bad thing?

Hey, I'm from the inner city. I do my work in the inner city. I knew the Crips were bad. I didn't have to, understandably, read that in a book. I could see them as uzi-toting, dope-sucking, psychopathic killing machines. So, it is nice that he renounces that. But he's like Dr. Frankenstein. He created this monster. And look at all these monster youth who are around the nation now literally launching siege attacks on inner city neighborhoods and causing mayhem and destruction.

And he wouldn't even apologize for the four executions that he's responsible for.

[malaise]

78. The only reason Arnold didn't announce this

earlier was so that MSM would carry Bush this morning without interruption.
Anyone who believed that clemency would be granted is clueless re the likes of Schwarzenegger. I will never support the death penalty.

[jeffrey_X]

80. this reminds me of an good quote from shawshank redemption....

"There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then, a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullshit word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a shit."

-Red