Swarzenegger denies clemency

[Walt Starr]

Just heard on Ed Schultz show.

[...of J.Temperance]

1. Good...justice for Stanley Williams' INNOCENT victims

For his victims, may his INNOCENT victims continue to Rest In Peace.

On Edit: I've edited out the last part because I didn't DELIBERATELY set out to offend and/or upset people. So I'm sorry for that last part, that it came across as "cheerleading", which it wasn't my intention for it to read that way.

[ender]

2. let's hope LA doesn't burn, too.

time to keep yer head down if you're in LA.

[GrumpyGreg]

3. Ditto ! good riddance to him.

[Shakespeare]

4. Let's reanimate them and congratulate them.

I oppose the death penalty in all cases--even for somebody who's completely unredeemable. It solves nothing, it deters nothing.

[noonwitch]

17. Exactly my opinion

Tookie is no better and no worse than anyone else on death row.

[...of J.Temperance]

64. The Tookie Fan Club over the past 2 weeks have ELEVATED Tookie

Almost to Christ-like level and it's been incredibly offensive and incredibly disrespectful to his four innocent victims...his VICTIMS I might add, the Tookie Fan Club have TOTALLY IGNORED.

I'm sick of hearing about fucking Tookie Williams, this sonofabitch should have been executed YEARS ago, like ten years ago...not hanging on by tooth and nail, he's a habitual liar, he's guilty, he wasn't framed, he murdered those people in cold blood, a jury of his peers found him guilty and the sentence passed was death...and at 12.03am Pacific Time Tookie Williams is finally getting his date with death and good fucking riddance.

He's had a good innings...he's lived two more full decades than he allowed his four victims to live...and one of them Albert Owens was the Daddy of an 8 year-old girl, who was left Fatherless thanks to Tookie Williams.

Good Night Tookie, Good Night and Good Riddance...don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

The victims...four innocents, including three members of one family. Finally their loved ones and their friends that they left behind, can close the book on Tookie and not let him torment and taunt them anymore.

Finally, they will have closure.

[Shakespeare]

73. I don't care if you're sick of hearing about Tookie Williams.

I've never suggested he's a noble individual (I'm not part of the Tookie fan club), but I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty.

This is not a good thing. This is not a productive thing. This is not something a civil society should be doing. It solves nothing.And to suggest that anyone derives "peace" from executing Williams is just bizarre.

Here's a little clue for you: One does not achieve closure from watching somebody like Williams be executed. Closure comes from within. And those who don't understand that will have neither peace nor closure.

[SidDithers]

79. What does the Tookie fan club have to do with the posters...

who indicated they're opposed to the death penalty for all persons. I don't think the posters that you're replying to think that Tookie is some kind of hero, just that neither he, nor anyone, should be put to death by the state.

A position I happen to agree with, btw.

Sid

[Shakespeare]

89. Oh, the poster won't address that point.

He/she has been asked the same thing in other threads, and it goes ignored and unanswered. No, that poster prefers to lump everybody into the "Tookie fanclub" set.

[...of J.Temperance]

92. I think you're mistaking me with somebody else

Because I haven't been asked the same thing in other threads...and I therefore haven't "lumped everybody into the Tookie fanclub set"

You must be thinking of another poster.

I'm a girl by the way.

On Edit: I could also, in hindsight, have mistaken some posters for those that I would have to term...the Tookie Fan Club, because that's how the latter have been coming across the past few weeks.

[Shakespeare]

93. I'm a girl, too.

So why don't you answer the question?

[...of J.Temperance]

97. Well

I don't see what there is to answer.

I'm pro-Death Penalty for murderers, and I would also extend the Death Penalty for rapists and pedophiles, EVEN if the rapists and pedophiles hadn't have murdered anyone.

You're anti-Death Penalty.

So I'm not sure what else there is to answer.

[Shakespeare]

118. I believe the question at hand....

...is why do the pro-DP folks keep insisting on lumping the anti-DP folks in with the "Tookie's a hero" crowd. Simple question. Not one pro-DP person has dared to touch it to date. I suspect it's because hyperbole and avoidance work better for you than actually debating the issue of the death penalty itself, rather than clinging simply to the argument over Williams' case.

[...of J.Temperance]

121. You know

The way I see it, that's you're entitled to your view and I'm entitled to my view.

You're not going to be able to change my view, and I'm not going to change your view.

[Shakespeare]

123. That's not the question.

The question is why do so many of the pro-DP crowd insist on lumping the anti-DP in with the "Tookie fan club?"

What bothers me to the extreme on this matter is that for the most part on this board, we are not having a productive discussion on pro v. anti death penalty. Rather than actually talk about the repercussions of having a government that puts people to death--be you pro or con--you instead just dismiss as as being "Pro Tookie," which is completely not the point. It is incorrect to classify us that way, and utterly unproductive.

[MissB]

81. I haven't noticed the Tookie Fan Club.

I've noticed plenty of people railing against the death penalty.

I don't see anyone saying "fuck the victims".

I've noticed plenty of people railing against the death penalty.

Celebrating someone's death is in poor taste, no matter how they died.

[AtomicKitten]

116. well said and exactly my sentiment.

I must say it is disturbing to hear the "burn Tookie burn" mantra here on DU. I guess I expected more enlightenment. This is proof positive that the Democratic Party is indeed a big tent.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

21. Exactly what I say.

Great minds think alike, no? :D

[WritingIsMyReligion]

11. May NO ONE burn in a "hell."

I don't care if he slaughtered a thousand people. I am disgusted that he is going to die. No man has the right to kill his fellows. It is beyond human judgment, and it is bad taste to wish death or an eternity in "hell" on anyone.

[...of J.Temperance]

70. Well I wish the ENTIRE Bush Inc. to burn for Eternity in Hell n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

102. I hate BushCo, but I don't wish them to burn in hell.

That might partly be because I don't believe in either a heaven or a hell. :D :D

I just wish they'd all get some brains.

[...of J.Temperance]

122. I'm a lapsed Catholic...so I DO wish Bush Inc. will burn in Hell

The TOTAL evil and wickedness that they've done, Bush Inc. to me deserve nothing LESS than suffering in the deepest fires of Hell for Eternity.

Getting some brains, I'm afraid they're well past doing that!

[Warpy]

16. I suppose they're gonna jump up outta their graves

as soon as the state kills Williams.

Face it, this isn't justice, it's revenge. It's ugly.

[The Magistrate]

54. Revenge, Ma'am

Does not strike me as necessarily a bad thing; it has long been a pillar of the social order. Most of what we call justice is simply revenge in a suit and tie....

[...of J.Temperance]

72. I thought you were going to say

"Revenge, Ma'am...is a dish best served cold"

But you didn't, darn it!

[TahitiNut]

86. Yeah. The Hatfields & McCoys are clearly iconic to "justice."

:eyes:

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[...of J.Temperance]

100. Hey ah like The Magistrate

He's very well-mannered, so he is.

[buff2]

49. God,that's a cold outlook

How can anyone cheer lead for someone else's death? That's so sad.

[...of J.Temperance]

76. I'm not "cheerleading", but the Tookie Fan Club have been "cheerleading"

They've "cheerleaded" Tookie for the past two weeks...and they've "cheerleaded" Tookie without even MENTIONING his victims.

So, for once I thought I'd say, strike one for the four innocent people that Tookie blew away.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

113. See post #111. And while I'm at it...

Which of the four victims will be resurrected?

[Wind Dancer]

127. That is NOT true.

Why are you posting things you know are false? There were many posts clearly honoring the victims - being against the DP doesn't diminish or dishonor the victims in any way. I'm tired of the history of these threads being rewritten.

[NYC Liberal]

78. I don't give a flying fuck whether he was guilty or not.

Your solution is: people are dead, so let's kill more! Yeah, that'll really solve the problem! Let's just follow in the footsteps of places like Iran, Uzbekistan, and Saudi Arabia! :eyes:

[MissB]

5. I'm not exactly shocked.

Unfortunate, though, from my perspective. I'm anti-death penalty, so I can't cheer someone being put to death by the government.

I think it is in poor taste to cheer someone's death, no matter if it is from suicide, murder, poor health, or state-sponsored death.

[Maat]

8. I agree, Ms. B! (n/t)

[Walt Starr]

15. I figured he'd cave in

I figured wrong.

[LincolnMcGrath]

25. He did cave in.

He caved to the 'revenge is justice' crowd.

[Walt Starr]

37. No, he did NOT cave in to the Tookie Groupies.

:eyes:

[LincolnMcGrath]

47. He appeased the Pro Death Execution Cheerleaders.

Using phrases like Tookie Kookies and Tookie Groupies does appear to make some DUers feel superior, though. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

51. Wrong again

He changed nothing. Only if he had stepped in after the Justice system went all the way through would he have been caving in.

[LincolnMcGrath]

62. Enjoy your celebration W S

Ahnuld ain't no Geo Ryan. And that is really saying something. Caving in would be Geo Ryan allowing 13 innocent men to die to appease the 'revenge is justice' crowd, including you.

Although your time line has fudged back and forth a bit in regards to the DP, your present celebration makes your current position very clear.

[Walt Starr]

66. What celebration

I'm calling bullshit on your post. I am not celebrating. so long as monsters like Stanley williams continue committing heinous crimes that result in the death penalty being imposed, nobody can rejoice.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

111. Yeah. RIGHT.

You take the time to post a thread called "A monster will die tonight." Among many other pearls of wisdom.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you're not celebrating. You're not cheerleading. God forbid. That only applies to when the opposite viewpoint is being expressed.

Excuse me while I :puke:

[Walt Starr]

114. Believe what you will

All discussion between you and I ends now.

[mitchtv]

59. I never figured he would

He would lose the last republican voters he has on his side.

[Walt Starr]

63. I was completely convinced he would

:shrug:

I was wrong.

[mitchtv]

83. you just guessed that his spine would bend to the left after

Susan Kennedy, and the 50b bond announcement- logical,
but he is feeling more heat from Freeperland, than anti DP people;
he melted alright , but to the right

[glarius]

32. I suppose everyone is waiting breathlessly for the news of his last meal.

:sarcasm: I find the custom, or should I say ritual of the last meal to be completely disgusting....May he be forgiven for whatever he has done...and God rest his soul.....

[Silverhair]

41. Where the custom of the "Last Meal" comes from.

At one time, the last meal was loaded with sedatives. That made the condemed easier to handle. By letting the convict order what he wanted, it was much more likely that he would eat it and be sedated.

Tookie has refused the last meal.

[rinsd]

48. I'm not shocked either....last CA Gov to grant clemency was Reagan (nt)

[MidnightWind]

6. Just got MSNBC news flash on my computer

n/t

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[...of J.Temperance]

53. Possibly...but I would suggest at 12.03am Pacific Time, we all kind of

Like avoid DU...until tomorrow. You know at 12.03am Pacific Time the place is going to go totally out of the window.

Actually I'd say, that we avoid DU from 11.00pm Pacific Time...and then all return tomorrow when the smoke might have settled some.

[SidDithers]

85. Is everyone opposed to the death penalty a Tookie Kookie? nt

Sid

[FARAFIELD]

9. I say good as well

I lived in california till a few years ago and that man was a scurge, killing, by order or HOWEVER and intimidating potential witnesses. Has he worked to be a "good" guy since he was incarcerated? i say SURE, he, should be a man though and accept that what he participated in stunk> IT doesnt matter a bit how people see it, but i grew up in southern California and most people havent even been introduced to some of the things that happened during his reign.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

33. So we kill him?

That's acting really humane.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. WOOOOOHOOOOOOO YAYYYYYY ALRIGHT!!! YIPPEEEEE!!! YEEHAAAAAAA!

:sarcasm:

(in response to the ludicrous, absurd, misguided, ignorant and flat out stupid other thread that was posted)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

19. ...

:thumbsup: OMC. I totally agree.

[ClayZ]

12. Arnold is a PIG! The Death Penalty is BARBARIC!

SHAME! :cry:

[bosspepper1]

18. Only right thing he has done n/t

[Aretha]

40. I was really going to say that the right decision was made

but then your CAPS-LOCK key swayed me to your point of view ...

[bosspepper1]

13. Yep

------------------------------------------------------
MSNBC Breaking News
------------------------------------------------------

California Gov. Schwarzenegger denies clemency for Stanley Williams -

[Zynx]

14. Well that's the end of that.

[Walt Starr]

20. Actually, we're about 9 1/4 hours away from it being the end of that

It isn't over till it's over, and stranger things have happened.

[MissB]

24. There isn't anything left.

He'll be dead then, one way or another.

[Walt Starr]

It's possible Swarzenegger could change his mind between now an 11:59

It's possible some last minute request for a stay of execution could be accepted by a judge or justice somewhere on some court.

Last minute stays happen all the time.

[MissB]

43. True.

I had forgotten they could still appeal to a court somewhere.

I doubt Arnold will change his mind, though.

[Silverhair]

50. Caryl Chessman got a last minute stay of execution from a judge.

It was literally at the last second. Then the judge's clerk dialed the prison, but dialed a wrong number. By the time he redialed, the pellets had dropped into the bucket.

I read that somewhere today while I was researching about previous cause celebres on death row. But I can't find the link now.

[Wind Dancer]

22. Let's please not rejoice in execution..

I'm pleading that this decision not be celebrated with glee on this progressive site.

He is a human being - are we not becoming the very thing we despise in others by taking pleasure in this ruling?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. 'Tis only the first poster who seems to have glee on this.

:scared:

:puke:

[Codeine]

34. Exactly.

Whether you believe it right or wrong, it should be recognized as a solemn occasion of tremendous importance.

[Walt Starr]

60. Who's rejoicing

I'll rejoice when people like Tookie don't commit heinous crimes that result in the imposition of the death penalty.

When it comes to the death penalty, I put the blame where is squarely resides, with those who are inhuman enough to commit acts for which the death penalty is the price they must pay.

[Wind Dancer]

65. Many have just been waiting with pitchforks in hand.

[Walt Starr]

68. I emailed Swarzenegger urging him to carry the sentence out

The mis-characterizations of DUers who support the death penalty are over the top, if you ask me.

[Wind Dancer]

80. You've been a part of some of the threads, Walt.

Have you forgotten these comments already?

From nofurylike:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"PErsonally, I think lethal injection is too good for most who deserve the DP."

"Stanley Pigshit Lower Than Whaleshit Williams WASN'T framed
He killed FOUR people, including three members of one family.

So he's going to die AND he deserves it. In seven days Williams will be wormfood. And good riddance."

"Won't the poison Kill the innocent worms?"

"Lethal Injection is too damned humane if you ask me
Impalement for mass murderers is probably too good for them."

"Jesus H. Christ...I'll be glad when the motherfucker is dead on December 13th...and then the threads will also stop....But it's all there is, so put the SOB down first thing on December 13th."

"Jaysus, we've already had at LEAST twenty threads about poor 'ole Stanley soon to be wormfood haven't we?"

"!....The earth is better off without this scum.."

"We are better off with out this ANIMAL!!"

another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"I'll send him (the governor) an email, telling him to cook the bastard."

"This scumbag needs to go to the netherworld asap."

"I don't think the death penalty is a good thing.
But I won't raise a finger for this psychopath.
I won't shed a tear for Tookie."

[LincolnMcGrath]

82. Thanks again

[Wind Dancer]

99. I simply can't believe the comments posted on this site.

When legalized killing is celebrated, it shows just how much work needs to be done in this country. Violence begets violence, it always has and always will.

It's a sad day in this country.

[Walt Starr]

84. That's not rejoicing

and for you to suggest so demonstrates your lack of understanding.

And this is the end of any further discussion between you and I.

[Wind Dancer]

88. I understand completely the blood-lust shown in recent weeks.

The threads back my claim, ignoring the facts do not change them.

[Puglover]

108. Why end discussion with her?

Because she called you on your bullshit? My kid uses that tactic too!

[Walt Starr]

129. I am not fond of beating my head against a wall

and personal attacks are not condusive to a debate.

"calling on bullshit" what I've been doing to the Tookie Kookies.

[Puglover]

106. Thanks for posting all of those quotes...

If you listen to Mr. Starr all the pro death penalty people on this board are serious, calm and solemn people who give the death penalty the gravity and repect that it deserves even though it MUSt be carried out.

:eyes:

[Wind Dancer]

125. Unfortunately, those are only a few samples.

I would think certain individuals would have the common decency to behave in a civilized manner toward others with a differing opinion. They scream the loudest then turn around and play the innocent victim, I don't get it.

I'm truly at a loss for words.

[ultraist]

124. Damn. Foaming at the mouth, aren't they?

They smell blood and are lusting over the kill. How sad.

[Wind Dancer]

126. Yes, it's heartbreaking.

It's as if certain people take sadistic pleasure in this entire case. DUers have been ruthlessly attacked for believing in a better system that doesn't involve legalized murder.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

117. Jesus H. Christ. You never stop, do you?

Listen to me: you can't have your cake and eat it too. When you manifest thirst for blood, you become known as bloodthirsty. That's the facts of life. Suck it up.

[Beaverhausen]

23. I'm ashamed that our country still commits this barbaric act

but then again I'm ashamed of much about our country these days.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

28. Is there anything to be PROUD of in this goddamned country right now?

:shrug:

I suppose there is, but my generation's going to have a shitload of nonsense to pick through to find it.

[Rainscents]

27. LA will take this to street... I can see this happening tonight.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

31. Yup.

Gonna be more blood, more violence, more unneccessary death.

:scared:

[Codeine]

38. Never happen.

[Catherine Vincent]

77. I don't.

It's not like anyone ever heard of this guy before his people started asking for clemency.

[stray cat]

29. I can't help but be sad about the killing of anyone

It doesn't bring back the victims and I like to think redemption is possible (not letting someone out of prison just letting them live)

[Xenotime]

30. What?!? How can this be in this day and age???

Another state sanctioned murder. Pitiful

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. "Killing is fun" said the general. Seems to be catching on.

How nice. America again proves it's barbarism.

[Aretha]

36. Well, at least that's over

I wonder if we'll have the same kind of mess when it's time for Clarence Ray Allen to finally receive his punishment. He's actually going to be tougher to argue in favor of than even Williams was.

I wonder how many people on DU will fight tooth and nail to save the lives of John King and Lawrence Brewer.

There are people on death row who should have their cases commuted (Roger Coleman, who was executed back in the summer of 1992 comes to mind) but I am convinced that Williams, Allen, King and Brewer, for example, are not among them.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

42. Even so, I don't think they deserve death.

I don't think anyone does.

[Aretha]

56. WIMR: Some people are simply monsters

They're rare and I'm not saying that this applies to everyone on death row but among the 6+ billion people on earth, a few are simply monstrous. Take Allen. He had 3 people murdered while in prison. Clearly, merely incarcerating him didn't work (and we don't simply put someone in a closed room ala the Bastille in this country, though perhaps some anti-death penalty people might favor that).

I think that the death penalty needs to be applied differently in the U.S. than it is now (that's a longer discussion) but I do not believe that this or any society has a moral obligation to feed, clothe, medicate and house monsters.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

104. I will agree that the DP needs to at least be changed.

I can't always agree with what else you are saying, but let's just leave it at that. I don't feel like starting a flame war. :D :D The way our country practices the DP today could stand change.

[Walt Starr]

71. It won't be over until it's over

Last minute stays of execution happen all the time.

[Aretha]

87. Actually, they're pretty rare

The last California governor to grant clemency was Ronald Reagan. There are, AFAIK, no courts left to appeal to.

[Walt Starr]

101. There's always another potential issue

Attorney's petition courts and judges up to the last moment unless their client specifically requests that they stop.

[TahitiNut]

95. By all means hurry to execute a 76-year-old man before he dies of old age.

How frustraing would it be for those with a lust for revenge to be deprived of executing someone who 'escapes' by succombing to the failings of old age?

Take heart that Ruben Cantu never had a chance. :eyes:

[Aretha]

120. I'm thinking more along the lines of

before he kills again. He's murdered 3 people while incarcerated ... and neither his old age or his poor health slowed him down one bit.

[Stand and Fight]

39. Sickening... Fucking sick.

Sick that there are people HERE who appear to be celebrating this execution.

I don't much care for Stanley Williams at all, but NO ONE should be put to death by the state. What he did was immoral and beyond the pale, but state sanctioned death...

The morbid people here got what they wanted -- another death administered and brought to you by the state. Congratulations.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

45. Amen to that, Stand and Fight.

I'm with you 100%.

[Stand and Fight]

67. Well... I guess it goes to this...

I'm Christian and I practice my faith according to the teachings espoused by Jesus of Nazareth. This death penalty runs completely contrary to what I consider to be one of his most far reaching lessons -- turn the other cheek. I am also inclined to reflect on the Beatitudes that the Nazarene taught right now, and I cannot help but be appalled that anyone would be so arrogant as to be glad of this.

Have some decency people! You don't have to respect the guy in life or even like him, but you could at least show a little civility at his impending death, and, if you must, celebrate in private your bloody and wretched victory. This is not justice prevailing. This is the rule of vengeance, of the lynch-mob mentality.

I'm taken aback that privately I have often thought, "For all the bitching DUers do about Christians, they manage to out-Christian the Christians most of the time in their morality." Not so for everyone today. I hope those who are happy realize that they are standing shoulder to shoulder with those they've so regularly denounced -- the extreme right-wing zealots who relish the thought of state-sanctioned murder but find abortion more abhorrent.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

103. Amen again.

:D :D

[LincolnMcGrath]

52. It's really hard to believe you would find that here isn't it.

:yourock:

[Stand and Fight]

69. Yes, it is hard to believe.

It is hard to believe that they're shoulder-to-shoulder with right-wing zealots who are also esthetic about this.

[myrna minx]

58. I agree.

:cry: And the brutalization of the American public marches on. I can't believe the zeal for state sponsored killing in this forum. :cry:

[Stand and Fight]

74. Sometimes... Just sometimes...

Human kind seem to be a nasty little cancer upon itself -- eating itself from within and without. This is a symptom of the disease.

[Codeine]

94. Agreed, Stand and Fight n/t

[Texasgal]

44. It is sad, this is not a happy thing for ANYBODY.

This is simply justice.

Maybe now, when some kid who idolized Tookie will understand that there are consequences to violent crime.

[Codeine]

55. Thank you TexasGal

I wish the people jumping up and down with glee would shut up. They disgrace themselves just as much as the Tookie groupies did.

[MrSlayer]

46. As it should be. Justice will be served.

I really had no doubt Arnold would do the right thing despite the propaganda campaign.

[Don Claybrook]

61. Oh you didn't, did you?

You had no doubt that Arnold would do the right thing? Does that apply to all of his decisions, or just the ones that result in death?

Why is it that you had no doubt about what Arnold would do? And why did you couch it in terms of him overcoming a "propaganda campaign"? Did you mean that you just knew he'd see right through the liberal ruse and kill Williams anyway? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you are saying.

I'm also wondering why you personally want Williams to die tonight.

Thank you.

[MrSlayer]

107. Oh yes, Arnold is the most brilliant governor in the history of the world.

Um...no. The reason I was confident he would make the right decision is that anyone who read the case history could see that Williams' is patently guilty and undeserving of clemency. This might be the only good decision he has made in office.

I couched it in terms of a propaganda campaign because that's exactly what was going on here. People were claiming he was innocent and giving out so much misinformation (The jury was all white for instance) about the case in order to save him that you couldn't call it anything less than propaganda.

I don't personally care about Tookie but I do care about justice for the victims and justice is what they are going to get.

Does this help clarify things for you?

[Don Claybrook]

110. I am clearer on your position, yes. Thank you.

I don't believe that anyone will be getting justice, but I do believe I now see where you're coming from.

Thank you.

[not systems]

75. What progressive would stand with the ACLU NAACP Urban league and AI...

no they would stand with the Governator.

Right?

Give me a break.

[MrSlayer]

112. If I think they're wrong I don't care who they are.

I'm all for the ACLU and NAACP and other groups of their ilk but if I don't agree with their stance on an issue I don't stand with them. They aren't always right. And the fact that I don't walk in lockstep with every pet cause doesn't disqualify me from being a progressive or a liberal. Arnold was right this time, probably the only time.

[Dances with Cats]

131. Just for the record I don't like your fucking name.n/t

[MrSlayer]

134. That's ok.

I'm a big fan of the band. I honestly never look at it any other way but I can see where people might mistake it for something else. It happens all the time. Rest assured, I don't go around slaying people out of hand.

[TahitiNut]

96. Your faith in Schwartzenegger is noteworthy.

:puke:

[MrSlayer]

115. On ONE issue.

Just ONE! And he's right about this. Sorry to make you feel ill.

[Dogmudgeon]

57. Tookie may deserve the Death Penalty

The question is -- do we?

Do we, as a society, deserve to undertake to kill people, some of whom might be innocent?

Even if the convicted deserves to die -- and Tookie was one incredibly violent criminal before his reformation -- how does this affect us? It defies the hangman's argument, but the most bloodthirsty states have the highest rates of violent crime.

I thought that the tide was beginning to turn against execution, but if it is, Arnold Schwartzenegger won't be part of it.

--p!

[WritingIsMyReligion]

105. Good post, Pigwidgeon.

:thumbsup:

[Silverhair]

119. Please note that Democratic governors of CA also denied clemency.

This didn't start with Arnie. It started in 1981 when he was sentenced. Upholding his sentence has been bipartisan.

[Dogmudgeon]

136. I do realize it

The Death Penalty is more a part of Republican ideology; while its practice is bipartisan, the Republicans have been the "philosopher-kings" of execution. So, when the death penalty again falls out of favor, the Republicans will be hamstrung on their own writings, while the Democrats will generally not. Most of the Democrats who do "endorse" capital punishment do so out of a calculated approach to winning support. Please note, I make no judgement here about either approach, in the interest of pointing out how each side handles this issue; but the difference between calculated murder and ideological murder is a difference of style only.

Ultimately, these little differences will yield to the Big Argument that killing someone in order to enhance the agenda of the State is just plain Wrong, with no delicate shades of ethical consideration. Right now, pettifogging is the main rhetorical approach to the flesh-and-blood reality of execution. We all know it's wrong, "but maybe it's okay just this once." "Just this once" has allowed Democratic governors to act as ideological Republicans without taking responsibility for it.

Yes, if it was such a morally clear act, there would be no question of hesitating to kill the convict. But every state-ordered killing, in matters of war or "justice", is a shameful act that must either be justified or covered up ... even when the killing has been sanitized and justified. Even when the subject of the killing is a "crime kingpin" like Williams was before his conviction.

It took 24 years of bipartisan dithering to kill Tookie Williams, and tomorrow morning, Der Gövernör will still have to answer for it ... tomorrow morning, and every morning of the rest of his life.

--p!

[dubyaD40web]

90. I'm with Walt on this

Tookie didn't grant clemency to HIS victims. Why should Arnie?

[NNadir]

98. So if Tookie's a murderer we should be more like him?

It's strange how people choose their role models. The main appeal of the kill 'em all crowd seems to be "we should be more like the murderers."

Ghandi, and many others would be proud. This reminds me of Nelson Mandela, who slowly executed all of Steve Biko's killers.

[graywarrior]

109. Death Penalty is WRONG.

Period.

Let him sit in jail forever. It's cheaper.

[WillowTree]

128. I'll take no joy in this man's death...

....but I'll shed no tear, either. He's a convicted murderer. He's exhausted all possible appeals and hasn't managed to convince any juror or any court which heard all of the legal evidence that his conviction was in error or that he didn't receive a fair trial. He knew if he got caught what the penalty would be when he committed the crime. He is, quite simply, guilty under the law and the punishment to be meted out tonight, whether we agree with it or not, is the law of the land in California. Arnold was elected to uphold the laws of the State of California and he did that, as well as upholding the findings of the jury and the courts rather than taking it upon himself to overrule them all. All that's left now is for this murderer to pay the price required by the law, and that he will.

I hope that Mr. Williams' death brings some measure of closure to the families of those he killed.

[Dances with Cats]

130. Dear Walt

I guess you are jerking off in excitement over this development. I still wish you were there so you could throw the switch. I'm still taking 10-1 odds you couldn't do it and 50-1 you'd piss your pants.

[Dances with Cats]

132. Walt Starr what the fuck you gonna talk about....

...once this is all over???

[DemonFighterLives]

135. Terminator lived up to his billing

Trying to be more like his mentor killer *.
If anyone in America were given the choice of life and death of another person, a compassionate person would choose life. Uncivilized monsters are the only ones that could choose death.
F*ck you ahhnold, you dumb bastard.