Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Huffington Post: A Conversation With Mark Crispin Miller

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:33 PM
Original message
Huffington Post: A Conversation With Mark Crispin Miller




Bob Cesca
12.12.2005
A Conversation With Mark Crispin Miller

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/a-conversation-with-mark-_b_12134.html

<snip>

CESCA: Last month, John Kerry denied your report that he felt the 2004 election was stolen. First, what's your reaction to his denial? It seems to me as if Kerry has an opportunity to reform the voting system as a public servant fresh from the trenches and very battle-scarred, but he won't stand up for fear of being accused of something as trivial and historically irrelevant as "sour grapes". How many more questionable elections will it take before candidates and leaders like Kerry set aside their concerns over being accused of "sour grapes" and actually put democracy and the good of the nation first?

MARK CRISPIN MILLER: The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind.

I'm not kidding. The answer isn't clear, since what we're dealing with is an irrational refusal to confront, or even to perceive, a clear and present danger to American democracy. We're dealing, finally, with denial. Kerry's move -- "I did not discuss the last election with that man" -- may seem to have been merely prudent, cautious, self-protective, but it was actually insane. Kerry clearly thinks that he will run for president again. Now, let's pretend, just for the sake of argument, that any Democrats outside of his own family would support him after his abrupt concession on Nov. 3, 2004. Let's pretend that he could once again be nominated, and then run, again, in 2008. Let's assume as well that he would win (again). Why does he assume that the Republicans would not subvert that victory too? Does he think the system will perform correctly if it hasn't been reformed? Or does he plan to call for its reform? If so, when? If he wouldn't talk about it back when he was first ripped off, and if he still won't talk about it now, how could he then begin to talk about it as a candidate? The man is obviously out to lunch.

But this is not just about Kerry. As he himself told me quite frankly on Oct. 28 (and that discussion was not off the record), none of his colleagues on the Hill will talk about this all-important issue. The Democrats, with very few exceptions, suffer from the same affliction that prevents him from doing what must be done.

This, I think, is why the DNC released that fatuous report last summer, pointedly insisting that there was no election fraud committed in Ohio in 2004. Through that document they tried to put as much daylight as possible between themselves and John Conyers, whose report the party ought to have embraced and publicized. Instead, they've tried to hush it up, like some distasteful family secret.

Why do they keep fleeing the issue? Unless the Democrats get into it, they'll simply vanish as a party, just as Paul Weyrich and Grover Norquist and Karl Rove intend. The reason why the Democrats avoid the issue, even though the party's very existence is at stake, appears to be a bone-deep inability to face the very frightening implications
of what really happened in 2004. The Democrats don't want to know that the United States is clearly not a democratic country, or that the Bush Republicans are dangerous extremists, intent on building a one-party theocratic state-so that the opposition now must go beyond the usual horse-race strategizing, and get re-acquainted with this nation's revolutionary heritage. Which means, I reckon, that the opposition has to move beyond the Democratic Party.

And of course the Democrats don't want to go there. The problem is compounded by the press, which has consistently sidestepped the issue, or even ridiculed those who have tried to talk about it. And by "the press," I mean not just the likes of CNN and Newsweek and the New York Times, but even the left/liberal and progressive media, which, by and large, have also basically concurred with the Republicans in claiming that last year's election was essentially legitimate.

<more>



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. I get so tired of hearing that all Dems are scared to make waves?
Ummmm, Boxer, Conyers to name a few? Just because the media smells blood every time they speak against this administration does not mean they are NOT saying what needs to be said...

This is really getting old.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's not what he said.
He said the DNC distanced themselves from Conyers. He did NOT say ALL Dems are scared to make waves. Did you read it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes I did,
And of course the Democrats don't want to go there.

It looks plural to me, be more specific and name names, thats what I am getting at, not trying to be rude I promise you, but I cannot count the times I hear that particular little sentence and nine times out of ten, thats all people see...

Do you not agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. He is SPECIFICALLY citing Conyers
You said, what about Conyers and Boxer?


This, I think, is why the DNC released that fatuous report last summer, pointedly insisting that there was no election fraud committed in Ohio in 2004. Through that document they tried to put as much daylight as possible between themselves and John Conyers, whose report the party ought to have embraced and publicized. Instead, they've tried to hush it up, like some distasteful family secret.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I know, Im sorry, not trying to make you mad, goodness
third time in two days I have upset someone...

Do you not agree that many will only see what they want to and just view that one sentence and ignore the rest and say to themselves...I knew it, all dems are scared?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Honestly I don't - it's a long interview
and I've only excerpted that one question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Agreed and a good one, its just that they cherry pick so much
on what is going on with the democratic party that I guess I am a little paranoid when I myself see that little remark, don't know how many arguments I have had to endure from those that say that time after time...

I'll hush now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Um, didn't you just do what you fear others would do?
"only see what they want to and just view that one sentence and ignore the rest and say to themselves...I knew it, all dems are scared?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Not waves,,,ripples
We desperately need waves. Waves of tsunami force....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick-n-Recommended...nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. You can't ignore these facts.
BC: Why is the rigging of the 2004 election seen as a "fringe" issue? If it was acceptable to question the veracity of the Swift Boat group or Dan Rather, then why can't the veracity of Diebold, ES&S, Triad, and the rest of the chief suspects be equally questioned by the mainstream press? If it's perfectly reasonable to believe that card-counters have successfully defrauded casinos, and that internet criminals can steal your credit card number *and* your identity -- why are accusations of election theft seen as so loony?

MCM: I'd take your argument still further.

By now we've generally conceded -- that is, the mainstream media concedes -- that Bush/Cheney lied us into a disastrous war, or else deceived themselves and all the rest of us to get us there. And we concede that Bush & Co. conspired to out a CIA agent who was working to prevent another terrorist attack on US soil. And we concede that this regime responded to Katrina, then to Rita, with (at best) depraved indifference, even though they knew exactly what was coming. And we concede that, prior to 9/11, they had lots of solid evidence of an impending terrorist attack right here at home, and yet did nothing to prevent it. (And, moreover, we concede that they've done nothing to improve security on our railways, on our highways, on our borders, in our ports or even in the air.)

And rational observers also will agree that Bush & Co. swept into Haiti and threw out that nation's first democratically elected government; that Bush & Co.'s Iraq is no democracy, since Jay Bremer drafted all its laws, its government was not elected, and Iraqis have no writ of habeas corpus and no freedom of the press; that Bush bends over for the oligarchy running China (he says he likes the way they treat their journalists); and that his regime whole-heartedly supports the tyrannies all over Central Asia and the Arab world (Iran and Syria excepted). Bush and his men have praised the leaders of "New Europe" for defying their electorates, and have assailed the leaders of "Old Europe" for trying to do what their electorates prefer.

Meanwhile, here at home, the Bush regime has thrown out habeas corpus, junked the Bill of Rights (we now have special "First Amendment zones" for dissidents), used public revenues to subsidize right-wing religious proselytizers (while giving nothing to religious groups that don't back the regime), handed the entire economy to its own corporate cronies, and veiled the workings of the federal government behind an iron curtain of illegal
secrecy. We grant they've done all this-and yet it seems outrageous to suggest that they committed rampant fraud in the election? After they used Bush v. Gore, and other means, to steal the race four years before?

That's a loony argument.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. I like what he says about Al Gore running in 2008!
BC: Joe Conason said recently that he thinks the Democratic candidate for 2008 should be Al Gore, citing Gore's victory in 2000 and his long-held stance against the Iraq War. Do you agree with Conason?

MCM: I think Joe's right. Gore has been improved immeasurably by his self-exile from the world of politics. It's loosened up his tongue. He tells the truth. If he could retain that spirit as a candidate for president--and if he would confront the issue of electoral reform--he could both win and serve as president. I just can't see him backing down a second time.

BC: How much of a margin of victory does Dem candidate in 2006 or 2008 need to beat the cheating machines and practices of the GOP?

MCM: It would have to be immense. If the theocrats were to "win" despite a ten-point disadvantage going into the election, they and the media could spin it not as a suspicious circumstance but as a stroke of genius on Karl Rove's part. For the absurdity to register, I think the Democrats would have to be ahead by, say, some 20 points--which they may think they can pull off. But it's a very risky sort of calculus. Confronted with such fraud as Bush's people have committed, the Democrats should be attempting to expose it, not just hoping they can somehow override it.


Very insightful interview.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'd support him
If he'd let me coach him on his speaking style!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I always thought Al Gore would investigate machine fraud after 2002.
Edited on Tue Dec-13-05 10:27 AM by blm
He always seemed to be the perfect person to look into the machines.

Has he ever said he believes the machines are rigged or that he believes there is machine fraud?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Man-o-man
Gotta go buy his book, like yesterday! In fact, oughtta buy ten of them and pass 'em around. How much are the books? Is DU advertising it? When will it hit the NY Times best seller list?

The title is: 'Fooled Again'. Right?

==================

Dems are AWFUL silent, as a whole. If the election was stolen (I believe it was) and no real investigation has yet taken place, then it is the fault of the Dems that one year has passed and not one thing is any clearer. Yeah, some states have passed laws meant to hamper election corruption, but going without a seat-belt gets more attention than election fraud.

The Dems need to stand tall. Maybe Gore will? We know Conyers, Boxer, et al have stood tall, where's the rest of the victims? In hiding, too afraid? Afraid of what?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't know why DU isn't selling it -
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. They have to BELIEVE it first - It happened in 2002 and no one believed it
I always expected that Gore would come forward, since he had the ability to grasp the issue and had the time necessary to work to expose it.

The biggest shame is that only a handful of Dems TODAY believe it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. If I by this man's book, will he then just go away? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. No.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC