"If you hire illegal workers, we'll put your picture on the Internet,"

[Kadie]

Activists shift to urging firms not to hire illegal immigrants

By PETER PRENGAMAN, Associated Press Writer
Last Updated 7:34 am PST Monday, December 12, 2005

LAKE FOREST, Calif. (AP) - The white van eases into a liquor store parking lot and is swarmed by 30 Hispanic day laborers who begin intense job negotiations with the driver. Within seconds, another wave of people descend on the van. Mostly white and middle-age, they snap pictures as they cite federal labor laws.

"If you hire illegal workers, we'll put your picture on the Internet," warns Robin Hvidston, a property manager who became an immigration activist after being alarmed by the number of Hispanics she saw in her Orange County community.

"I hire the legals," the driver, who later identifies himself as Iranian, replies in broken English.
"But these people are not legal," retorts protester Gerry Nance, handing the driver tax and employment eligibility forms. "You must check all this to be sure."

The driver shakes his head and drives off. The would-be workers return to the wall of the liquor store, disappointed but hopeful the protesters will leave so they can hook a day's wages.

Frustrated by the federal government's response to illegal immigration and worried that undocumented workers are depressing wages, conservative immigration reform groups are broadening their focus from the U.S.-Mexico border to the workplace - in Southern California, Texas, Illinois, Virginia and elsewhere.

more...
http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/13970679p-14804725c.html

here is another link, no registration needed...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/12/11/financial/f094348S92.DTL

[losdiablosgato]

1. Great idea, it worked with Johns and hookers

[Selatius]

2. Fuck the businesses that hire illegal aliens

They're playing these laborers against laborers in the US who are fortunate enough to have citizenship papers or were born on US soil. They're pitting workers from different parts of the world against each other at our collective expense and their collective gain.

[formernaderite]

16. That's actually bullshit

In the DC area....you can advertise labor jobs till you're blue in the face...and you will get NO Americans answering the ads. I've worked with many landscapers and other contractors. You can't hire Americans to do labor jobs. It's easier to hire someone to hold up a portable traffic stop sign at a labor site , than actually dig a hole. These employers pay prevailing wages. I know that most of the people who answer have fake Soc numbers and ID''s. The day laborers are a different ball game...they want hourly rates paid...with no taxes taken out. They usually make between ten and fifteen per hour, cash....more than any Starbucks job pays.

I just don't get it...when I was a teenager I'd of killed for this type of work and pay.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. I'm betting that's because most Amercans assume that those jobs

are a) already taken by illegals or immigrants, and b) pay shit wages. I'm sure if the employer advertised that he was looking for Americans to take those jobs, they'd be snatched up in a heartbeat.

[formernaderite]

44. Nope....they often advertise the payrate

don't make excuses, people don't assume jobs are already taken if they see ads posted weekly. I've tried to hire high school students myself to do labor...they'd rather work for less indoors. Doesn't matter which socio-economic level either. Even a larger construction company I know, has made efforts to hire from workforce projects in the city, and lists that he's hiring at the unemployment offices. NO ONE wants this type of work. I've had hispanic guys take a couple of buses and walk 1-2 miles to the job site. Sorry, but you never get excuses from them...they are a true pleasure to work with. The ones that learn english get to advance to foremen. Two cement guys who came here years ago, started that way...and now they've got their own companies. Couldn't say if they're here legal or not.
Trust me, if the works here we'll have people seeking it. If it dries up they won't come. I hate the term illegal, it should never describe a fellow human being.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. this is the only way to solve this problem

as long as employers are allowed to hire illegals with no penalties or with a mere slap on the wrist, they will hire illegals. And the businesspeople usually vote and have some clout politically-they'll do something to make it easier for people to come to work in this country if they find out they will get hurt for hiring illegals.

[havocmom]

9. Since they are breaking laws, more should happen than just internet pics

Write your Congress Critters and ask why this lawlessness is not stopped and the guilty prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They do more damage than the pot heads locked up by zealous law and order types!

[0rganism]

18. Because criminal prosecution requires evidence of lawbreaking

"Simcox and others say it's obvious when an employer is hiring illegals, though they acknowledge they often don't have proof."

That's why not.

[havocmom]

24. There is always the tools of raids & audits

How much $$ did Ashcroft spend to bust 12 hookers in New Orleans? A bit of cash to investigate hiring, safety and payroll tax evasion doesn't seem a bad investment, especially after the massive amount spend to try and get dirt on Clinton.

No, seems a bit more like selective enforcement than lack of proof when they choose not to run investigations and stings on these types of violations of law.

[0rganism]

27. As long as it's legal and warranted, go right ahead

I have no problem with laws regarding hiring documented labor, nor any sympathy for those who operate maquiladoras whether in this country or any other.

However, what the people in the news piece of the original post were doing comes remarkably close to inciting vigilante "justice" for guilty-until-proven-innocent crimes. Hell, their quick-fix libel fiesta may wind up on the docket a lot faster than any of the alleged illegal hiring they decry.

[dkofos]

4. What we need are penalties (Felony) for hiring illegals.

The harsher the penalty the fewer illegals will be hired.
When word gets out that if you are an illegal there are no jobs,
they will stop coming.

[michreject]

8. I agree

Go after the employers. Hit em where it hurts, in the wallet.

[0rganism]

15. How about some evidence that those hired are illegal?

Before one starts inciting all kinds of Bullshit by throwing photographs on an inflammatory website, maybe these concerned citizens can check into their methodology:
"Simcox and others say it's obvious when an employer is hiring illegals, though they acknowledge they often don't have proof."

Want to make a bet on how many libel lawsuits it will take to shut down these Orange County racists? Truth is an absolute defense, but it looks to me like an admission from Simcox that they don't have proof of their allegations.

[Hamlette]

20. we actually DO have laws against hiring illegals...passed under Clinton

and the penalties were harsh (may have changed) and the feds went out and arrest a couple of employers and all hell broke loose. You'd have thought he had oral sex with an intern or something. Rhe conservatives went nuts "why are you prosecuting honest businessmen who are only trying to make a living? It's obscene. You should punish the workers." blah blah.

We stopped enforcing the laws. Because the conservatives don't like to prosecute businessmen.

I remember when it happened.

[dkofos]

33. If we have laws in place they should be enforced.

Fuck the businessmen. They are the problem.

[Loonman]

5. Go for it

Hiring of illegals sends wages to the bottom.

[AuntPatsy]

6. A good idea, I find it extremely hypocritical that many who

claim to worry about our nations open borders have no problem secretly hiring illegals to work for below minimum, the almight dollar is a great incentive to ignore one's supposed principals.

[Walt Starr]

7. The only way to stop the problem

is to stop the ability to be hired illegally.

[dogfacedboy]

10. Good idea. n/ t

[0rganism]

13. "Juden"

Yeah, great idea.

[dogfacedboy]

23. What does this have to do with

people breaking the law by hiring ILLEGAL immigrants? Oh, I get it. This is your clever little way of calling me a racist.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not a racist. I am, however, opposed to ILLEGAL immigration.

By the way, by virtue of my Mother being JEWISH, that makes ME JEWISH. Go find someone else to bait. I'm not going to bite.

ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL, Organism.

[0rganism]

26. It has everything to do with posting pictures on an inflammatory website

If you can't see the similarities, that's your problem -- even moreso, if your family ancestry (like mine) is Jewish. It is among our responsibilities to strive to prevent such events from happening again.

Go re-read the article in that context. Maybe you won't think it's such a "Great Idea".

> ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL, Organism.

"Simcox and others say it's obvious when an employer is hiring illegals, though they acknowledge they often don't have proof."

UNPROVEN is UNPROVEN, dogfacedboy.

[dogfacedboy]

43. Well, on that point, you are correct. It's not going to change my

opinion on on ILLEGAL immigration and the hiring of ILLEGAL immigrants, though.
Sure, my Mom is Jewish, but my Dad came here as an immigrant(Irish), and he came here LEGALLY. He signed up at the door, and obeyed the laws. This is a nation of laws. I may be a Democrat, I may be a liberal(on everything except this, apparently), but I am first and foremost a law abiding American. I lost a job because I reported an employer for hiring ILLEGAL immigrants. He hired them ILLEGALLY. He then shut his doors. I don't care. I know I did the right thing. PERIOD.

[High Plains]

11. Most revealing sentence fragment:

"...Robin Hvidston, a property manager who became an immigration activist after being alarmed by the number of Hispanics she saw in her Orange County community."

Careful, Ms. Hvidston. You meant to say "illegal" Hispanics, right? Or is it really that you just don't like those greasy beaners?

[donco6]

38. "They're taking over!"

Darn 'spics - er - "illegals" I mean. :sarcasm:

[0rganism]

12. What, exactly, is the evidence used to prove the workers are illegal?

Oh, that's right, they aren't relying on quaint things like "evidence":

"Simcox and others say it's obvious when an employer is hiring illegals, though they acknowledge they often don't have proof."

Sure, just post someone's name and business and photograph on a website with the pejorative that they're hiring undocumented workers, and let the chips fall where they may. That's fantastic stuff.

I like this bit, too:

"a property manager who became an immigration activist after being alarmed by the number of Hispanics she saw in her Orange County community"

It's not the number of illegal workers that concerned her originally, it's the number of HISPANICS in Orange County. Well, she and the rest of her racist ilk can take a flying fuck off about their precious Orange County demographics.

What truly worries me is that this is the shape of the new populism. Is this website the postmodern equivalent of scrawling "Juden" on Berlin shopwindows? I sure as hell hope not.

[Kadie]

22. That quote from the property manager is telling.

I am going to go back and re-read this article a little later, but it looks like you picked up on the things that bothered me about it.

[donco6]

39. I'm an employer.

People bring me in a SS card with their name, I assume it's really theirs. So I'm supposed to suspect someone just because they're hispanic? That sounds pretty racist to me.

I think you're right - a lot of this is simply racism, and is akin to the Juden thing.

[High Plains]

14. I have a better idea: Give those workers rights!

Workers who can complain about shoddy working conditions or illegal wages without the fear of deportation are less likely to be exploited. That would be some sort of guest worker program.

What ever happened to labor solidarity? (Oh, I guess it died in 1914.)

I understand the impulse to want to attack the big corporate capitalists who are taking advantage of these people, but many of the people posters would like to see be thrown in prison for hiring undocumented workers are small businesspeople--restaurant owners, construction contractors, etc.--with whom we presumably have some sympathy.

At root, the problem isn't those Mexicans or the guys who hire them, but the global capitalist system and the huge differences in development between the US and Mexico. But that's a tough one to fix, ain't it?

In the meantime, let's have some solidarity. Workers with rights earn better wages.

[Codeine]

25. And without the illegals

American workers would have a range of good-paying jobs at their disposal. My solidarity lies with workers here, I'm sorry to say.

[High Plains]

28. Nobody is stopping American workers from taking these jobs.

As the DC-area poster upboard noted, the jobs are there, and not at sub-minimum wage. I don't see any Anglos lining up for 'em.

I think this "they're taking our jobs" crap is a stalking horse for xenophobia.

I agree with you on one thing: I, too, am sorry to hear you say your solidarity with workers ends at the US border.



edit: for correct spelling of "they're"

[Codeine]

31. He's lying through his teeth.

In order to justify his hiring of illegals.

And as to your other point, as soon as we get some labor solidarity on *this* side of the border we can start singing "The Internationale." Until then, my first prioroty is to fix our own home.

[High Plains]

34. He's lying through his teeth?

Do you have any evidence to support that? Or is just that his statement undermines your point?

I say the best short-term solution is a guest worker program of some sort. Workers with rights are harder to exploit.

By the way, I believe it is Hispanic immigrants (legal and undocumented)who are doing some of the best labor organizing around these days.

Capital and jobs certainly know no national boundaries--why should labor solidarity?

[mitchum]

42. You are absolutely correct! I am disgusted by all of the anti-labor...

"Democrats" on this thread.

[Loonman]

17. Maybe instead of taking bribes and living like a king

Vicente Fox could give a hoot about his own people.

[High Plains]

19. I'm no friend of President Fox (and he'll be gone soon), but...

...this isn't something that is going to be solved in a six-year term. Or something that began with Fox.

[Loonman]

21. Fox seems content in maintaining the status quo

Corrupt government, corrupt police force, lack of law and order, poorly maintained crumbling infrastructure, valueless currency, graft, extortion, jailing of foreign nationals without due process, vast 'peasant' class, tiny minority of affluent families influencing national events...


Mexico is always one month away from being a failed state. At some point, Mexico is going to have to do something.

[High Plains]

30. Do you ever actually go to Mexico?

I actually feel safer there than I do in the US. Funny, that.

On second that, that picture you painted sounds suspiciously like the US. Hmmm...

[Loonman]

32. Then move there

I'm sick of paying for Mexico's surplus population off of my back and the backs of other wage slaves with exorbitant taxes.

[High Plains]

35. Ooh, I guess you told me!

Tell me just how much of your tax burden goes to support illegal immigrants.

And how much goes for tax breaks for the rich, and how much goes to support illegal wars.

Then come back to me with your bashing.

Actually, I spend quit a bit of time in Mexico these days. I suggest you try it sometime. It might aid your perpective.

[Loonman]

47. If Mexico is such a friggin' paradise

Why do we have millions upon millions of Mexicans illegally entering the US? Got an answer for that, smart guy?

[High Plains]

49. I never said it was a friggin' paradise...

They clearly have deep problems with job creation down there. There is a lot of underemployment. There are also a lot of peasants driven off the land by the reverbrations of NAFTA in the past decade.

Still, it's an interesting country, it's your neighbor, and it might behoove you to check it out sometime. Hell, you might even have fun. And learn something.

[donco6]

40. I've traveled quite a bit in Mexico . . .

Some of the things are true (corrupt police for sure), but their infrastructure isn't any worse than what I've seen in Denver.

All I'm saying is be careful with the picture you paint - it's partly accurate, but not entirely.

[mitchum]

41. What, and break with tradition?

[Kansas Wyatt]

36. The Democratic Party is LOSING a golden opportunity by remaining silent...

About how illegal immigration has exploded under BushCo. and the Republican Congress. The only purpose for this explosion of illegals coming to work in the United States, is to depress the wages of blue collar workers. Some of you claim that they only take jobs Americans won't do, and that is total bullshit! Supply and demand works for labor also, except when illegals flood in the country to remove any leverage that labor had to better their wages and working conditions.

Republicans are going to hi-jack this issue from the Democrats, because Democrats are more concerned about the equality between "undocumented workers" and the blue collar Americans who are always pissed on by Corporate Republican policy. Oh sure, the Republicans will talk tough about cracking down on illegal immigration, but they will continue to ignore the problem in the name of cheap labor. Meanwhile, the American blue collar worker is told to "educate and train" themselves for better jobs that become just as obsolete. Do college grads really want more competition than they have now?

We are not at the stage, where we are fighting to be a salvation center of utopia for the world's poor, we are down to the survival of millions of working Americans who keep getting screwed and ignored. Keep believing that Democrats have a more dignified upper arrogance of idealism for saving the world's poor on this issue, and you will continue to see lost votes to the Republican rhetoric.

[High Plains]

37. So what should the policy be?

I'm arguing for a guest worker program. Workers with rights shouldn't depress wages, should they?

It is tough to see what else can realistically be done:

Slam shut the border crossings? Bad for commerce, and people just go around them, anyway.

A massive dragnet to round up and deport 8 or 10 or 12 million people?

Any other suggestions?

[Kansas Wyatt]

46. You're "arguing for a guest worker program." Just like George W. Bush.

1) "I'm arguing for a guest worker program. Workers with rights shouldn't depress wages, should they?"

Key word "should," is not the same as cannot or will not. And, they shouldn't, unless an employer intimidates them into doing 'exactly as they say or they will be returned to their country.' Sure, no room for abuse there at all, and you can bet that the gov't shall not have the power to unionize any of these foreign workers or set standards, pursuant to corporate policies demanded from their puppets in Washington. No wonder George W. Bush wants this so bad, while nothing changes with the abundance of foreign workers driving wages down.

2) "It is tough to see what else can realistically be done: Slam shut the border crossings? Bad for commerce, and people just go around them, anyway. A massive dragnet to round up and deport 8 or 10 or 12 million people?"

It's not so tough to see what can be done realistically and you have a very good start, until you start to doubt yourself. Slamming the border crossings shut is not the problem, getting the federal gov't to actually watch our borders for illegal aliens flooding across is the problem. The federal gov't ignores it, and your loyalty is with the commerce flowing to the other side of the border, not with the U.S. acquisition of Pesos. Great idea of having a massive dragnet to deport 12 million people who are in this country illegally, that would really have an immediate impact on cleaning the situation up and deter those on their way to cross illegally.

As for other suggestions:

1) Massive fines for those who knowingly hire illegals, so they had better start checking documentation. Three strikes, and a repeat offender corporation or business will be shut down and liquidated into state unemployment funds. Same would apply to the 'personal' hiring of illegal aliens, which would put the affected personal assets into the same status. Bet they can find the right documentation then, because there is just too much to lose.

2) Transport all illegals rounded up back to their country, and present an itemized bill to their country of origin for the deportation. If such bill is not remedied, then freeze all of their business relationships in the U.S. until it is remedied.

Now, I could go on, but that would bring an immediate end to the problem, because it removes the 'easy cheap labor,' that is un-prosecuted, from the equation. Oh, and a majority of Americans do not care whether a Democrat or Republican immediately cleans it up, as long as it gets done.

[donco6]

48. Laughable.

Your "solutions" might as well be drawn from Rush Limpballs himself.

"1) Massive fines for those who knowingly hire illegals, so they had better start checking documentation. Three strikes, and a repeat offender corporation or business will be shut down and liquidated into state unemployment funds. Same would apply to the 'personal' hiring of illegal aliens, which would put the affected personal assets into the same status. Bet they can find the right documentation then, because there is just too much to lose."

Define "knowingly." Do all employers have to become INS agents? How do we do that?

I'm an employer. I can't hire anyone until they fill out a W-9 and produce a physical SS card with their name on it. Am I supposed to further investigate people I suspect are illegal? Like all the Hispanics? Just the Hispanics? Don't you smell a teensy bit of RACISM there at all?

Nah, didn't think so.


"2) Transport all illegals rounded up back to their country, and present an itemized bill to their country of origin for the deportation. If such bill is not remedied, then freeze all of their business relationships in the U.S. until it is remedied."

This is just stupid. Itemized bill. Why not just stamp "Juden" on their forehead and be done with it?

[High Plains]

50. Yeah, me and George Bush...

Look, I'm saying that we need some way of regularizing the people who are here working. I'm not interested in screwing workers through a shitty guest worker program. But a program that regulates these people, gives them rights and responsibilities, looks like the best solution.

I only threw out the idea of massive roundups and deportations of millions of people as a means of showing how draconian such a proposed solution would be. That kind of shit is pretty far from my values, and I'm a little disturbed you embraced it so readily. Got those cattle cars filled yet?

I have the same problem with cracking down on the border. I've actually spent time along both the Mexican and the Canadian borders. There are thousands of miles of remote, rugged, unsupervised territory along those borders. To effectively patrol would basically require a cop every six feet or so.

Gee, maybe we could do it. Hundreds of thousands of cops arresting and deporting millions of people. Hundreds thousands more swarming the borders. Maybe that would result in an America that suits your tastes. Not mine.

[Al-CIAda]

45. 'LOSING a golden opportunity ' -I agree fully with you on all counts.

Time for the Dems to fight for the American citizen/worker again. If they do not and allow further erosion of worker rights, there is little hope left.