Answer me this...Why does Tookie get the DP, when Charlie Manson did not?

[KitchenWitch]

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

1. Manson never killed anyone?

:shrug:

[ShaneGR]

40. No, he was sentenced to death... and then....

The death penalty was outlawed and his sentence was commuted to life. Then later the death penalty was reinstated but since he'd already had his sentence commuted it couldnt be changed back. Basically he got lucky. Nothing to do with race as some other posters are suggesting.

[LostinVA]

41. Correct -- along with Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwrinkel, and

Tex Watson. Leslie Van Houten had another trial, because her lawyet disappeared in the middle of everything.

[XemaSab]

47. Ah OK

I knew there was something like that.

Also, the man's certifiably batshit insane, but that's never really stopped anyone from being put to death. :(

[WLKjr]

49. if he were in TX, Bush would have fried him 6 years ago.

[Raydawg1234]

51. Don't forget about the "Other death penalty"

Manson was killed by fellow inmates. If you commit a particularly haneous crime, such as a child murder, chances are good that other inmates will kill you.

[pschoeb]

58. Manson is still alive

Your thinking of Jeffrey Dawmer

[pinto]

2. IIRC, I think the DP was illegal at that time....n/t

[KitchenWitch]

3. Ok, that makes sense.

[Peter Frank]

18. Yes, it certainly makes sense that the DP was made illegal...

How sad that the federal ban was lifted.

No one knows how many innocent people have died in over more than two centuries of this practice. To me -- one is too many.

Many enjoy marginalizing civil rights right up until their own have been violated -- then they spend thousands of $$$ for lawyers to go to bat for them (maybe they'll even be lucky enough to get the attention of the American Civil Liberties Union)?!

I'd like those predisposed to go with a mob mentality to consider that you reap what you sew.

[KitchenWitch]

22. I agree

I hate it when murder is done in my name, whether it be the death penalty or the so-called war on terrorism that * started.

[WinkyDink]

35. sow

[MADem]

16. The way I remember, he got it, then they got rid of it, so they commuted

his sentence to life. Then they brought it back, but they couldn't reinstate the penalty after the commutation.

[Raine]

19. Yes that's correct

I'm a Californian and that's just what happened.

[WinkyDink]

33. To reiterate:

Manson AND the 3 young women and Charles "Tex" Watson ALL got the DP, but then it was for a time declared against the state constitution, so all sentences were changed to life in prison WITH the chance of parole (which is why Krenwinkel et al. are every now and then shown in TV interviews).
When the DP was re-instated, it was not made retroactive to the initial sentencing.

BTW, aren't questions like this topic answered readily through either Google or by reading?

[LostinVA]

43. There's nothing wrong with KitchenWitch asking this

Sometimes people here need more than Google -- we're Google with commentary.

[KitchenWitch]

46. Thanks LostinVA

I actually asked this question in the original post to spur rational discussion, and I am very pleased that this thread has not degenerated into a flamewar!

You all rock!

[LostinVA]

54. We do, don't we? *giggle*

[no_hypocrisy]

31. Agreed. It's unconstitutional to have a ex post facto law applied.

Can't change the rules according the contemporaneous political whims of the populace.

[Occulus]

34. Except for sex offenders.

But they're different, see?

[shanti]

4. take a wild guess

:banghead:

[KitchenWitch]

6. Yes, that is where my mind went!

:banghead:

[sleipnir]

17. That the death penalty was made illegal!!!

That's exactly why. Someday, it will be the same as it was.

Death is not right of anyone. We as the People pretend that our revenge killings will stop human violence. It is not so. Our murder is no different, as both state murder and individual murder at some point decide within the context of our minds that the course of events allows me to murder an individual . There is no difference between our murder of inmates and the murder between citizens. Until we all see beyond the idea of killing, there is no hope.

[tx_dem41]

28. Wild guess?

Oh...lemme guess that Manson was given the death penalty and that the Calif. Supreme Court overturned the death penalty in 1972, thus commuting all death row prisoners to life sentences......How is that for a wild guess?

What was yours?

[shanti]

39. let's see....

race?

[tx_dem41]

45. Well, mine is based on historical fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

"Although Manson himself was not present at the Tate/La Bianca killings, he was convicted of first degree murder on January 25, 1971, for ordering and directing them, and on March 29 was sentenced to death. The death sentence was later automatically commuted to life in prison after the California Supreme Court's People v. Anderson decision resulted in the invalidation of all death sentences imposed in California prior to 1972. The killers, giggling in court, were asked if they felt remorse, and gave answers that indicated they did not."

[Brundle_Fly]

5. when manson was convicted the us had banned the death penalty.

I think it was reinstated in 77 or 79, Manson was tried in 1970.

it is also true that Manson was never physically at the places where the murders claimed by his followers were, he was convicted of conspiring to commit murder.

[KitchenWitch]

7. Ok, that also makes sense!

Thanks...

[Sapphocrat]

10. No, just the state of California.

There was no federal ban.

Also, Charlie was not at the Tate house, but he was at the La Bianca house, and at the very least, trussed the LaBiancas up so his bunch could go in and kill them.

Before that, he was party to killing Gary Hinman...

Actually, if you start adding up all the murders associated with MansonCo., it comes to around 35 or so -- and I'd bet money Charlie did a lot of the dirty work itself. (Of course, none of that entered into the Tate-LaBianca trial.)

[Sapphocrat]

8. He did.

And then California repealed the death penalty in 1974, and Manson's -- and his "girls'" -- death sentences were all automatically commuted to life. With parole.

[pinto]

9. (OT) Remember the women crawling to the courthouse in LA? What a

strange, strange thing it all was.

[Sapphocrat]

11. What I remember best...

...are Charlie's courthouse fans who shaved their heads and carved swastikas into their foreheads when he did.

And of course, the Life magazine cover.
:scared:

[pinto]

13. ...

:scared:

[FVZA_Colonel]

14. "With Parole?"

Dear Lord, what were they thinking?

[Sapphocrat]

15. They weren't. Thinking, that is.

Good thing Charlie's pretty much stopped going to his own parole hearings (they're once every two years for all The Family who were convicted in 1970), and when he used to attend, he's hammed it up like the wacko everybody expects him to be. (I don't think he's ever been crazy; he's just a cunning, evil little jailhouse con-man. Not that I wouldn't be afraid of him -- I would be, very afraid.)

The girls dutifully attend their own hearings, like clockwork. There's only one who stands half a chance of ever getting out... But I'm not gonna go into that here -- even if it happens. LOL

Side note: It used to be that Sharon Tate's mother, Doris, showed up at every single parole hearing, for all of them, to make sure they never got out. Doris died, and Sharon's younger sister took over the job... and then Sharon's sister died. I'm not sure if the Tates are represented anymore -- but I don't think there's much to worry about. Charlie and Co. are going to die in prison. Well, except maybe one of them.

[Raine]

20. Another sister

has taken over now for her mother and the sister who died.

[Sapphocrat]

23. Good!

That shows you I haven't kept up on CharlieCo. since Patti died.

Well, I'm glad to hear the next Tate stepped up to bat.

I haven't seen you around before, so a belated Welcome to DU! :hi:

P.S. NorCal, SoCal, or elsewhere? I'm in the SFBA, and grew up with the Zodiac as our resident bogeyman -- but even that didn't impact the Cali Collective Crime Consciousness as much as Tate-LaBianca.

[Raine]

24. Hi

Thanks for the welcome! :-) I'm SoCal in the coastal area of Los Angeles County.

Actually long ago Doris Tate ran for office in this area but she didn't make it passed the primary. I think she was running for assembly or something like that.

I remember the Tate/LaBianca murders very well, it was a really BIG thing down here in SoCal. People in the area were scared, especially after the LaBianca murders.

[Sapphocrat]

25. We were scared up here too, but you folks had more reason...

...because of proximity, of course, and by the fact that the LaBiancas could have been anybody's parents.

After following the whole sordid story for nearly three decades, I became friends with a fairly well-known actress who was a friend to Roman and Sharon, and eventually we talked about the murders, and the reaction among the Hollywood elite.

But you're so right -- it was the LaBiancas that shook everyone up.

If you ever feel like rehashing some of this stuff (it's just one of those things that's ingrained in a lot of us who grew up here), there's a True Crime forum on DU, if you haven't stumbled across it already. No, nobody is collecting locks of Charlie's hair or anything -- everybody's pretty sane, and I believe, like me, mostly interested in the lifelong quest to learn: What tiny fluke makes Mr. Crazy Killer different from the rest of us?

On the other hand, if we knew what made Charlie Charlie, we could probably figure out what makes Republicans Republicans. And then cure it. LOL

[Raine]

48. Thanks

I'll check out the true crime forum I just 'love' that kind of thing. Seems weird to say I 'love' it but I do find it interesting and read lots of books on crimes especially the ones that take place in California.

[LostinVA]

44. I have read that Patricia Krenwrinkel didn't go to the last one

And that, according to thos ein the know, say that she's the ONLY one of them that truly has remorse, doesn't think she deserves parole, and who has made her life in prison one of trying to improve herself and help other inmates. They also say she would not be a danger to society in any way.

I don't think she deserves to get out, either. But it is interesting, how she seems to have become truly rehabilitated.

[Sapphocrat]

50. I didn't know any of that.

Fascinating. Sounds like this is her healing, her compensation, whatever it is. Wow!

I'm really very surprised that "Katie" stands out as the remorseful one. I'm-- oh, hell, OK, I'll admit it: Unless she's an Oscar-worthy actress, I've always had my money on Leslie van Houten being the one who's actually processed what she did and genuinely regrets it.

But even if I've been hoodwinked by a good performance on LvH's part, I still think she's got the best chance of getting out someday. Besides the fact that she's been a model prisoner, there's always going to remain a question of whether she actually delivered a fatal stab to R.LaB., or whether R.LaB. was already dead. Could be complete B.S., but from all accounts by everyone who was there, it's truly impossible to know. A good lawyer could work wonders with that alone -- and this time s/he'll have a calm, solid, well-rehearsed 50-something-year-old client to work with, instead of a fucked-up 18-year-old acid head.

I'll have to read up more on PK. Of all of them (even Sadie & Tex), Katie gave me the willies the most, because of that impenetrable, steely, utterly soulless gaze.

[khashka]

12. Manson didn't kill anyone.

He directed his "family" to do it. I could be wrong about this but I think he did get the DP but it was outlawed in CA and so his sentence was changed. They brought it back but not retroactive.


Khash.

[Peter Frank]

21. Please respond to reply #18...

[hyphenate]

26. Because he's black?

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but skin color seems to be the deciding factor in many cases. :sarcasm:

It's why across the country more and more lawyers are approaching the convictions of black men and examining them more closely. The Southern Poverty Law Center, for one, is helping to run more conclusive forensic tests (esp DNA) to ascertain true guilt or innocence. Alan Dershowitz and several prominent attorneys have also set up tests to see if the right person was convicted. It's amazing how many more black men are given the maximum penalty versus white men for similar crimes. It's one of the areas of law that really needs to be changed. Thankfully, modern science has helped to bring more criminals to justice through accurate testing, but just as we have advanced significantly in even the past 20 years, it will be amazing to see what we can do twenty years from now.

[tx_dem41]

29. In this case though...that wasn't a factor since Manson was given..

the Death Penalty. Calif. Supreme Court overturned the death penalty in 1972, thus commuting all death sentences to life terms.

[tx_dem41]

27. Simple history....Manson DID get the death penalty, but when the..

Calif. Supreme Court overturned the DP in 1972, all death sentences were commuted to life sentences.

Stand down on the conspiracy and read some history.

[UTUSN]

30. MANSON Got Worse - an "Interview" by Geraldo

Bad of me to joke. What this was about was that Whorealdo basically screamed and called MANSON names ---which is understandable and the names are true, but it wasn't the example of a professional jounalist's suspension of his own emotions in order to ask questions that would shed light on the subject.

[Orrex]

32. I recall that interview

If memory serves, Charlie mentioned that, if he wished, he could have Geraldo's head in a box. Good stuff.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Actually, I'm Ok With Geraldo In That Piece

Manson tried to intimidate him and Geraldo would have none of it. I thought he did the right thing. He maintained control of the interview and wouldn't let himself get punked. The last thing he could have done was to get punked and cowered which is what Manson wanted. Now, we all know that armed guards were 15 feet away, so i supposed Geraldo looked more brave than he had to be, but still, i thought he did the right thing.
The Professor

[Nicole]

52. agreed

Geraldo handled it well.

[Theres-a]

56. That's the one

Man,that was good tv.

[Theres-a]

55. I can have your head in a box,if I want to!

I'll never forget Charlie saying that to geraldo,it was hilarious,and the look on geraldo's face...I remember that interview,priceless.

[Walt Starr]

36. Manson WAS sentenced to death.

It was commuted to life in prison with the California Supreme court decision People v. Andersen which invalidated all death penalties imposed prior to 1972.

[Jawja]

38. He did get the death penalty

and then it was commuted to Life in Prison when California dropped the death penalty.

[incapsulated]

42. Yep. n/t

[Dave Reynolds]

53. Et tu, KitchenWitch?

:yoiks:

[RPM]

57. umm, chuck's not....

black