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Quotes from the Vietnam Era that will purely break your heart.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:37 AM
Original message
Quotes from the Vietnam Era that will purely break your heart.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:23 AM by madfloridian
Quotes from the Vietnam era

I edited to highlight McGovern's words. He was a truthteller.

Ho Chi Minh to the French, late 1940s
You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours, but even at those odds, you will lose and I will win.

Richard M. Nixon, speech, April 16, 1954.
If in order to avoid further Communist expansion in Asia and particularly in Indo-China, if in order to avoid it we must take the risk by putting American boys in, I believe that the executive branch of the government has to take the politically unpopular position of facing up to it and doing it, and I personally would support such a decision.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1954
You have a row of dominoes set up; you knock over the first one, and what will happen to the last one is that it will go over very quickly.

John F. Kennedy, speech, New York Times, October 13, 1960.
Should I become President...I will not risk American lives...by permitting any other nation to drag us into the wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time through an unwise commitment that is unwise militarily, unnecessary to our security and unsupported by our allies.

John F. Kennedy, 1961
Now we have a problem in making our power credible, and Vietnam is the place.

Barry M. Goldwater, Why Not Victory?, 1962.
Once upon a time our traditional goal in war and can anyone doubt that we are at war? - was victory. Once upon a time we were proud of our strength, our military power. Now we seem ashamed of it. Once upon a time the rest of the world looked to us for leadership. Now they look to us for a quick handout and a fence-straddling international posture.

Gen. Curtis LeMay, May 1964
Tell the Vietnamese they've got to draw in their horns or we're going to bomb them back into the Stone Age.

Lyndon B. Johnson, statement after Gulf of Tonkin incident, August 4, 1964.
We still seek no wider war.

Lyndon Johnson, Oct. 1964
We are not about to send American boys nine or ten thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.

Ronald Reagan, 1964
We are at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind in his long climb from the swamp to the stars, and it has been said if we lose that war, and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening.

Lyndon B. Johnson, 1964
This is not a jungle war, but a struggle for freedom on every front of human activity.

Ronald Reagan, interview, Fresno Bee, October 10, 1965.
It's silly talking about how many years we will have to spend in the jungles of Vietnam when we could pave the whole country and put parking stripes on it and still be home for Christmas.

George McGovern, speech to U.S. Senate, April 25, 1967.
We seem bent upon saving the Vietnamese from Ho Chi Minh, even if we have to kill them and demolish their country to do it....I do not intend to remain silent in the face of what I regard as a policy of madness which, sooner or later, will envelop my son and American youth by the millions for years to come.


Walt W. Rostow, National Security Adviser, Dec. 1967
I see light at the end of the tunnel.

Unidentified U.S. Army major, on decision to bomb Bentre, Vietnam, February 7, 1968.
It became necessary to destroy the town to save it.

Lyndon B. Johnson, address to nation, March 31, 1968.
Our objective in South Vietnam has never been the annihilation of the enemy. It has been to bring about a recognition in Hanoi that its objective - taking over the South by force - could not be achieved.

Stephen Vizinczey, 1968
The war against Vietnam is only the ghastliest manifestation of what I'd call imperial provincialism, which afflicts America's whole culture - aware only of its own history, insensible to everything which isn't part of the local atmosphere.

Richard M. Nixon, 1969
Let us understand: North Vietnam cannot defeat or humiliate the United States. Only Americans can do that.

Richard Nixon, Oct. 1969
I'm not going to be the first American president to lose a war.

Sen. Frank Church, May 1970
This war has already stretched the generation gap so wide that it threatens to pull the country apart.

Dalton Trumbo, Introduction, Johnny Got His Gun, 1970.
Numbers have dehumanized us. Over breakfast coffee we read of 40,000 American dead in Vietnam. Instead of vomiting, we reach for the toast. Our morning rush through crowded streets is not to cry murder but to hit that trough before somebody else gobbles our share.

Henry Kissinger, Oct. 1972
We believe that peace is at hand.



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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow Reagan's statements seem a mite contradictory
They're the greatest enemy we've ever faced yet we can pave the whole country and be home by Chrisatmas? Great research - I'm already experiencing deja vu.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds familiar
Deja vu all over again.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. ...
Nguyen Van Thieu, April 1975
If the Americans do not want to support us anymore, let them go, get out! Let them forget their humanitarian promises!

K and R
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:56 AM
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. methinks you don't know what forum you are on.
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MnFats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. bu-bye, fuckface.
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MnFats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. I remember most of those, including those of the murderer Kissinger...
...Fucking bastard came out -- i think it was less than a month before the '72 election, and announced 'peace is at hand,' which was total bullshit. but of course it made Nixon's re-election a cinch. kissinger later was at the Paris peace talks and they weren't going well. Kissinger sent Nixon a message that consisted of three words:

"Bomb. Bomb. Bomb."

and so they bombed the fuck out of the north again....the infamous "Christmas Bombing" of 1972. the U.S. destroyed Bach Mai hospital in Hanoi.....some of the most awful footage of that war came out of the bombing of Bach Mai hospital....weeping doctors, nurses, family members, patients ... all stunned that the U.S. would bomb a hospital.

On campuses all over the U.S., students took up collections to send to the North Vietnamese to rebuild the hospital.


I wonder how Bill O'Reilly would have reacted to that one...

what a world, what a world..
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I met someone who was stationed in Tonkin under Kissinger's command.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:21 AM by shance
He said Kissinger was both very charismatic and moody.

I asked my friend what Tonkin was about.

He said he believed it was "oil".

Deja vu all over again.



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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. I maintained for years that we would never have BEEN in vietnam were
it not for the rubber and the oil.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. "Under Kissinger's Command"
Kissinger was Secretary of State and never ever was in Command of any US Military. Your friend is an obvious LIAR.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I wish folks here would stop using the LIAR like that.
I did not read the poster's words like that at all. For you to do that, to say his friend is a LIAR...really is disturbing.

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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. His friend said Kissinger was his Commanding officer and went on to
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 04:26 PM by Toots
describe attributes. I said anyone who said Kissinger was their Commanding officer is a LIAR. I won't back down on that because Kissinger was never a Commanding Officer in the Vietnam Conflict. He was Secretary of State. No one in the Military ever Reported to Kissinger, Kissinger Reported to Nixon..I was in Vietnam and was politically aware during the sixties.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. LOL! Were you in Vietnam Mr. Kissinger expert?
You obviously know absolutely nothing about what you are so indignant about.

You keep holding on to your firmly entrenched illusions of the way things ought to have been,

versus the way they actually were.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yeah, but he had the ear of the president--they were like two peas in a
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 12:56 PM by Peace Patriot
pod--and he was sending telegrams like "Bomb. Bomb. Bomb." Clearly he had great--indeed, overwhelming--influence on civilian (presidential) decisions, and thus, over what the US military would do. This is just a quibble--that Kissinger wasn't "in command." Vietnam was his baby. His dead baby, in the end. He was the architect of the escalation of that war under Nixon. He was the mastermind, whose policies--combined with those of LBJ and Dean Rusk--resulted in over 55,000 US soldiers dead, and upwards of TWO MILLION southeast Asians! Henry ("Dr. Strangelove") Kissinger. War criminal.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I don't think the one yelling LIAR realized the irony....
did not realize just how much Kissinger was a part of it all.

I get tired of seeing the word LIAR used here at DU.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Are you saying Kissinger was not involved in any Special Ops in Tonkin?
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 02:19 PM by shance
Please don't assume what you don't know.

My friend had no reason to lie and/or impress.

He worked in the Navy and Kissinger was who they answered to.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Kissinger only became Sec'y of State in Sept, 1973
Prior to that he was Nixon's national security advisor.
http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/40813.htm
But I agree, he was not part of the military chain of command at any time.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. It's so sad to us that remember the truth about Vietnam
As the Bushbots try to rewrite history. 58,000 American troops dead...for no reason.

Believe me the lame Bushbots might go for it again, but we won't.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. Beautiful words of peace from MLK about Vietnam.
Words of Martn Luther King

I want to say one other challenge that we face is simply that we must find an alternative to war and bloodshed. Anyone who feels, and there are still a lot of people who feel that way, that war can solve the social problems facing mankind is sleeping through a great revolution. President Kennedy said on one occasion, "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." The world must hear this. I pray to God that America will hear this before it is too late, because today we’re fighting a war.

I am convinced that it is one of the most unjust wars that has ever been fought in the history of the world. Our involvement in the war in Vietnam has torn up the Geneva Accord. It has strengthened the military-industrial complex; it has strengthened the forces of reaction in our nation. It has put us against the self-determination of a vast majority of the Vietnamese people, and put us in the position of protecting a corrupt regime that is stacked against the poor.

It has played havoc with our domestic destinies. This day we are spending five hundred thousand dollars to kill every Vietcong soldier. Every time we kill one we spend about five hundred thousand dollars while we spend only fifty-three dollars a year for every person characterized as poverty-stricken in the so-called poverty program, which is not even a good skirmish against poverty.

Not only that, it has put us in a position of appearing to the world as an arrogant nation. And here we are ten thousand miles away from home fighting for the so-called freedom of the Vietnamese people when we have not even put our own house in order. And we force young black men and young white men to fight and kill in brutal solidarity. Yet when they come back home that can’t hardly live on the same block together.

The judgment of God is upon us today. And we could go right down the line and see that something must be done—and something must be done quickly. We have alienated ourselves from other nations so we end up morally and politically isolated in the world. There is not a single major ally of the United States of America that would dare send a troop to Vietnam, and so the only friends that we have now are a few client-nations like Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea, and a few others.

This is where we are. "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind," and the best way to start is to put an end to war in Vietnam, because if it continues, we will inevitably come to the point of confronting China which could lead the whole world to nuclear annihilation."




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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind,"
n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. "The judgment of God is upon us today" MLK
To all the good Southern Baptists who embraced this war and told us we were not patriotic for opposing....you yourselves are now being judged by God.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. So soon they forget
George McGovern, RIP.

madfloridian: great post. :thumbsup:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. McGovern paid dearly.
Just as all truth tellers do.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. A struggle for freedom on every front?
Hey, I want America restored. Frank Church was my senator. He said enough was enough. There is no reason for us to be in Iraq. None at all.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. "I predict you will sink step by step into a bottomless quagmire"
I predict you will sink step by step into a bottomless quagmire, however much you spend in men and money.
- Charles De Gaulle, 1899 - 1970, on Vietnam War


The Vietnam War required us to emphasize the national interest rather than abstract principles.... What President Nixon and I tried to do was unnatural. And that is why we didn't make it.
- Henry Alfred Kissinger

No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now. Rarely have so many people been so wrong about so much. Never have the consequences of their misunderstanding been so tragic.
- Richard M. Nixon, 1913 - 1994

The war in Vietnam threatened to tear our society apart, and the political and philosophical disagreements that separated each side continue, to some extent. It's been said that these memorials reflect a hunger for healing.
- Ronald Wilson Reagan, 1911 - 2004

The biggest lesson I learned from Vietnam is not to trust government statements. I had no idea until then that you could not rely on .
- Senator James William Fulbright


Television brought the brutality of war into the comfort of the living room. Vietnam was lost in the living rooms of America - not on the battlefields of Vietnam.
- Marshall McLuhan, 1911 - 1980

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. This is why W won't let us see the tragedy in Iraq
He only wants to show the few rich people loving the American (W) plans for globalism.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. If it were not for the Vietnam War, I wouldn't be here in the US.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:59 AM by Selatius
My mother became a refugee after Saigon fell to the north. She became one of the boat people before immigrating to the US. I was born here in the US. My mother still doesn't understand why the US pulled up and left. The history of my ancestors is a history of trying to get out from under foreign domination, for most of the last 2000 years.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. The US left because we could only bomb the Ho Chi Minh trail
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 02:04 AM by Erika
on the third Sunday of every other month after it had been cleared by bureaucrats.

The reason for invasion of Vietnam was there attack on us in Tolkin Bay. It has been proven that attack never happenned. The Vietnam war was a lie just like in Iraq.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I taught a lovely Cambodian girl who escaped with her mother.
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 02:19 AM by madfloridian
It was the late 70s I think. Hard to put things in a time frame there. I think her family was a victim of the Khmer Rouge...did I get that right. She and her pregant mom hid in the jungles, ate rats, hid under water, finally got out.

It was a pleasure to have her in my class.

They were so loving, they held no bitterness.

She was able to speak English well enough to tell about their escape. It was a good lesson for the class.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
22. Soldier's letter to friend before he was killed.
Richard Van de Geer, letter to friend before he was killed, May 15, 1975, officially last American to die in Vietnam War, Time, April 15, 1985.
"I can envision a small cottage somewhere, with a lot of writing paper, and a dog, and a fireplace and maybe enough money to give myself some Irish coffee now and then and entertain my two friends."

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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. From the best and brightest, to the worst and dullest.
They do not grasp the issues.

One reason the Kennedy and Johnson administrations failed to take an orderly, rational approach to the basic questions underlying Vietnam was the staggering variety and complexity of other issues we faced. Simply put, we faced a blizzard of problems, there were only twenty-four hours in a day, and we often did not have time to think straight.

Robert S. McNamara, In Retrospect, 1995


What happens when you have a government that is founded on greed, repression and lies? Thinking straight is impossible for Bushco, little wonder they could not handle Katrina, and totally ignore the debt that will destroy America.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. Westmoreland on the Tet Offensive and the media.
It sounds so cold and heartless.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/interviews/westmoreland/
On the Tet Offensive:

We saw the Tet Offensive coming and we were prepared for it. And the enemy took tremendous casualties there; and we felt that the magnitude of those casualties would result in the enemy coming up with some sort of diplomatic solution. But that never took place. ...

The American public were caught by surprise. We were making military progress at the time -- which a statement of fact. And when the Tet Offensive took place, the American people were not prepared for that, and I assume some significant responsibility for that. and I've made this statement many times. If I would have to do it over again, I would have made known the forthcoming Tet Offensive. At that time, I didn't want the enemy to know that I knew what was going to happen. I did know. I made a mistake in not making that known to the American public, because they were caught by surprise and that was a very much of a negative factor.

On the impact of television journalism on the war:

Well, it's the first war that we've ever fought on the television screen and it was the first war that our country ever fought where the media had full reign, they had no restraint. We provided no restraint over the media. I mean, that was a policy by the president, and the enemy exploited it. It was something that plagued me from the very beginning. On the other hand, when I knew the Tet Offensive was coming, I should have made a public statement and maybe gone in front of the TV cameras and made known to the American people that a major offensive action was to take place. I didn't do that because I didn't want the enemy to know that I had access to his plans. ... And in retrospect -- and I've made this statement many times -- that was bad judgment on my part.


Well, it sounds like you were more worried about the impression it made on the public. Well, slap me up side the head if that is not going on now I will eat my hat.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. The "enemy" expoited our free press by dying all over our TV screens.
What bastards!

"We provided no restraint over the media. I mean, that was a policy by the president, and the enemy exploited it." --General Wastemoreland (and people)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. When I read most of those quotes..."bastards" is the first word in my mind
And I am beginning to think the same of those who want us to stay there. This is beyond politics.
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kiteinthewind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. Bobby Kennedy
I am reading MacAfee's "The Gospel According To RFK" and Bobby Kennedy's speeches ring true as if they were written for our current state of affairs. I have a newfound respect-I was only 8 when when most of the speeches were made.Anyone else read this book? Highly recommended.:thumbsup:
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. Here's a quote from 2004 that breaks my heart....
When all is said and done, there is still a segment of the population that failed to learn their lesson from the Vietnam war. I read the following in September, 2004 National Geographic Forum in response to an August issue that had an interesting article on Hanoi - thirty years revisited...

Hanoi

Your article states, "Not until 1975...did Vietnam and Hanoi see the end of the war and foreign subjugation." I, and other veterans I knew, did not go to South Vietnam to help subjugate South Vietnamese people. We went there to try to help protect them from being oppressed by North Vietnam.

Ken Rought
Williamstown, New Jersey


I may be mistaken, but I feel the Vietnamese population owns the exclusive right to determine if they were being subjugated or not. :shrug:
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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Just because he didn't have the subjugation of others
in mind doesn't mean that it wasn't the purpose of those above his pay grade. No way this dipshit saw a battle first hand even if he is telling the truth and was over there.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
36. There is a person missing from those quoted above: RFK
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 02:58 PM by Peace Patriot
"Are we like the God of the Old Testament that we can decide, in Washington, D.C., what cities, what towns, what hamlets in Vietnam are going to be destroyed? ... Do we have to accept that? ... I do not think we have to. I think we can do something about it." --Robert Kennedy (final Senate speech on Vietnam, 1968)

I lived through those events. And the resemblance to Bush's Iraq war is excruciatingly painful, and deeply disturbing.

We lost three major antiwar figures to assassination in that period, two of them in one year, 1968: RFK and MLK.

-----

John F. Kennedy, assassinated in 1963, had fought the CIA both on the invasion of Cuba and on the US presence in Vietnam. It has now been documented that JFK rescinded the presidential orders for US "military advisers" in Vietnam who were paving the way for the war. I believe now that these were the reasons he was killed.

-----

Martin Luther King, a powerful moral leader, assassinated in March 1968, had come out publicly against the Vietnam war the year before, in a speech entitled, "Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence." King had been advised by the DLC types of that era not to mix civil rights and peace. He rejected that advice in spring 1967, came out against the war in an amazing speech (see below--the parallels to Iraq are so haunting!), got roundly criticized for it, and, I believe, got assassinated because of it.

-----

Robert F. Kennedy, also assassinated in 1968, just three months after MLK, had initially supported the Vietnam War, but broke with LBJ and turned against it with a passion, as it got worse and worse, and, finally, mounted an antiwar presidential campaign that was sweeping the country--with an incredible cadre of support from young people who were hungry for peace. He was headed for the White House.

Bang, bang, shoot, shoot--as that other famous antiwar figure, John Lennon, once sang (assassinated in 1980).

-----

The mysteries around these assassinations have never been solved. And suspicions remain that forces connected to US war profiteers and warmongers were involved. The same suspicions attend the untimely death of Senator Paul Wellstone, in 2002, just as he was mounting a campaign against the Iraq war, weeks before his comeback re-election to the Senate. He, too, was presidential material, and would have made a superb candidate in '04.

Can it be a coincidence that only those who favor peace, and who have the leadership skills and power to change US policy, get killed in this way, at the height of their powers, just as they make a significant political move to achieve peace? It seems very pointed to me. And not a coincidence. And I favor re-opening all four investigations (including Wellstone, for which there was NO investigation that the public has access to).

Whatever the truth may be, there is a lesson to be learned, and that is, that WE CANNOT RELY ON LEADERS to achieve peace and justice. They will be killed. They will be Diebolded. Their campaigns will be sabotaged. The goals of peace and justice must be a collective responsibility. And I believe that, with the recognition by many of us that our election system has now been rigged (with the Bushite electronic voting machines and their SECRET programming), and our activism about it--and also with the courageous antiwar activities of Cindy Sheehan and many other good people--we are, at last, as a people, taking collective responsibility for DIRECTING our leaders and our government to stop the war and to seek world peace and justice for all.

I don't think we've ever done that before--truly taken collective responsibility for what our country has become--ripe fruit for fascists to pluck and plunder and turn to their purposes. We didn't really take responsibility for it in the 1960s and '70s. For one thing, we left this humongous military machine in place, and nuclear weapons. What is it for--except to steal our money and conduct unjust wars? (When was the last time this military machine actually DEFENDED us?) And we let a COVERT war take place, against Nicaragua--and against the direct order of Congress--without impeaching the president who was responsible for it (Reagan). Now we see what comes of such citizen neglect and laziness: the corruption of both parties, and the loss of our democracy.

But I feel very strongly that the active antiwar movement in this country now--which seemed to begin in 'fits and starts'--is actually way stronger than the one driven by the military Draft in the 1960s. I think it is much more fundamental, and is based in part on the lessons of Vietnam, which many of us oldsters remember quite well, but also on a global consciousness that did not exist in the United States back then. The fact that we KNOW that Venezuela's elections were honest and aboveboard, and ours were not--is a good example of what I mean. We may be late to the problem, but we are better informed and savvier than we ever were in the '60s--DESPITE the miserable, war mongering, corporate controlled Fourth Estate that we are inflicted with now.

Further, nearly 60% of the American people were against this war FROM THE BEGINNING. That was not the case in the 1960s. Now, all we have to do is EDUCATE them on WHY this war is proceeding against their will--the dastardly rigging of our election system--and the people of this country WILL restore democracy. It is in their hearts. And I think it will be a far better democracy than the one we had before.

"The lessons of rigged elections" will become the equivalent of "the lessons of Vietnam" in our history books.

-----------------------------------

In the following, you can substitute Iraq for Vietnam for every broad point in the speech, and for most of the details as well. It is remarkable!:

-------------------------------------

BEYOND VIETNAM: A TIME TO BREAK SILENCE, by Martin Luther King

7 April 1967, delivered before the Clergy and Laity Concerned About Vietnam

"And as I ponder the madness of Vietnam and search within myself for ways to understand and respond in compassion, my mind goes constantly to the people of that peninsula. I speak now not of the soldiers of each side, not of the ideologies of the Liberation Front, not of the junta in Saigon, but simply of the people who have been living under the curse of war for almost three continuous decades now. I think of them, too, because it is clear to me that there will be no meaningful solution there until some attempt is made to know them and hear their broken cries.

"They must see Americans as strange liberators. The Vietnamese people proclaimed their own independence *in 1954* -- in 1945 *rather* -- after a combined French and Japanese occupation and before the communist revolution in China. They were led by Ho Chi Minh. Even though they quoted the American Declaration of Independence in their own document of freedom, we refused to recognize them. Instead, we decided to support France in its reconquest of her former colony. Our government felt then that the Vietnamese people were not ready for independence, and we again fell victim to the deadly Western arrogance that has poisoned the international atmosphere for so long. With that tragic decision we rejected a revolutionary government seeking self-determination and a government that had been established not by China -- for whom the Vietnamese have no great love -- but by clearly indigenous forces that included some communists. For the peasants this new government meant real land reform, one of the most important needs in their lives.

"For nine years following 1945 we denied the people of Vietnam the right of independence. For nine years we vigorously supported the French in their abortive effort to recolonize Vietnam. Before the end of the war we were meeting eighty percent of the French war costs. Even before the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu, they began to despair of their reckless action, but we did not. We encouraged them with our huge financial and military supplies to continue the war even after they had lost the will. Soon we would be paying almost the full costs of this tragic attempt at recolonization.

"After the French were defeated, it looked as if independence and land reform would come again through the Geneva Agreement. But instead there came the United States, determined that Ho should not unify the temporarily divided nation, and the peasants watched again as we supported one of the most vicious modern dictators, our chosen man, Premier Diem. The peasants watched and cringed as Diem ruthlessly rooted out all opposition, supported their extortionist landlords, and refused even to discuss reunification with the North. The peasants watched as all this was presided over by United States' influence and then by increasing numbers of United States troops who came to help quell the insurgency that Diem's methods had aroused. When Diem was overthrown they may have been happy, but the long line of military dictators seemed to offer no real change, especially in terms of their need for land and peace.

"The only change came from America, as we increased our troop commitments in support of governments which were singularly corrupt, inept, and without popular support. All the while the people read our leaflets and received the regular promises of peace and democracy and land reform. Now they languish under our bombs and consider us, not their fellow Vietnamese, the real enemy. They move sadly and apathetically as we herd them off the land of their fathers into concentration camps where minimal social needs are rarely met. They know they must move on or be destroyed by our bombs.

"So they go, primarily women and children and the aged. They watch as we poison their water, as we kill a million acres of their crops. They must weep as the bulldozers roar through their areas preparing to destroy the precious trees. They wander into the hospitals with at least twenty casualties from American firepower for one Vietcong-inflicted injury. So far we may have killed a million of them, mostly children. They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like animals. They see the children degraded by our soldiers as they beg for food. They see the children selling their sisters to our soldiers, soliciting for their mothers.

"What do the peasants think as we ally ourselves with the landlords and as we refuse to put any action into our many words concerning land reform? What do they think as we test out our latest weapons on them, just as the Germans tested out new medicine and new tortures in the concentration camps of Europe? Where are the roots of the independent Vietnam we claim to be building? Is it among these voiceless ones?

"We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village. We have destroyed their land and their crops. We have cooperated in the crushing of the nation's only noncommunist revolutionary political force, the unified Buddhist Church. We have supported the enemies of the peasants of Saigon. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men.

"Now there is little left to build on, save bitterness. *Soon the only solid physical foundations remaining will be found at our military bases and in the concrete of the concentration camps we call 'fortified hamlets.' The peasants may well wonder if we plan to build our new Vietnam on such grounds as these. Could we blame them for such thoughts? We must speak for them and raise the questions they cannot raise. These, too, are our brothers....

"This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words, and I quote:

'Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism (unquote).'

"If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately, the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horrible, clumsy, and deadly game we have decided to play. The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways. In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war."

4 April 1967

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkatimetobreaksilence.htm
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 04:28 PM
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38. "Destroy the village in order to save it" ; "Strategic Hamlets"
"Pacification", "Vietnamization", "cut and run", "stay the course", "peace with honor"...

It's all come flooding back. The corruption is probably the worst aspect of it all.
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