Warning GRAPHIC photos..Is tookie a hero? No, I don't think so..

[KC_25]

First of all if you oppose capital punishment, then this is an exercise in futility, however, if you are willing to consider it on a case by case basis for particularly heinous crimes then it may be a go.

1. This clemency petition states that Mr. Stanley "tookie" Williams has been redeemed, and/or atoned for his crimes because he wrote children's' books, as well as works with current troubled youth.
-First of all, if Mr. Williams were an innocent man, then what does he have to atone for? What redemption is gained without first admitting guilt. No, Mr. Williams to this day denies that he committed this crime. He expresses no remorse, or apology.
-His work to "save kids" is laudable, however, if he were truly trying to prevent gang activity, he would have named names and given the lowdown as to what he knows, even if this information is somewhat outdated now, it could open new leads, and actually help bring the gang down, not just keep one or two kids from entering it.

2. Mr Williams claims that the prosecutor was bigoted..
- Well, you know what? He may well have been. But what does that add to the case, nothing, ANY prosecuting attorney will exclude, or attempt to exclude ANY juror that he feels may have to much sympathy with the defendant. If he didn't do that, then he wouldn't be doing his job would he.
- Mr Williams, has further stated that he was convicted and sentenced by an all white jury. Not TRUE at all. Even before the defense knew that the death certificate of one of the jurors identified him as black, that there was a filipino and hispanic woman on the jury. So they outright lied? Why would they do that? to garner public support and create a rallying call, regardless of how false it is. But if he is truly innocent, shouldn't there be more to go by than a false rallying call?
-He cries racism, but what is it, but racism to state that a jury made of multi racial backgrounds could not give Mr Williams a fair trial?

3. The tookie cookies, state that the evidence used to convict Mr. Williams was all circumstancial..
-Most evidence (it is not all CSI..esp back in the early 80s) in most cases is circumstancial..(Scott Peterson, anyone), but it does not make him any less guilty. The murder weapon that was used, was bought and paid for in his name. He states that the weapon was found under another couples bed...what he leaves out was that he lived with that couple..(minor detail, right)...


4. The tookie cookies state the defense based its case on the testimony of one individual
-That is incorrect, and you can see it in the court transcripts, that there were many who testified against Mr. Williams, the prosecution also had a handwriting analysis done of the note that Mr. Williams wrote, and he verified that he indeed write...


5. Mr Williams conviction and sentence has stood up to every legal challenge that they have thrown at it. In the 9th Circuit Court, of all places...Every time an appeal was defeated he adopted a new camouflage, IAC, failed... mental incapacity failed,...esculpatory evidence denied entry..failed
and the latest...biased jury..failed. His ever changing tiger stripes only further leads me to believe in his guilt, and highlights his interest in merely saving himself...


6 Which leads me to this...His sudden turnaround, new found redemption..blah blah..is only the latest in his attempts to get away with the crime. It is nothing more than a publicity stunt, trying to draw attention to his "cause" which, unfortunately has paid off for him...as I said earlier, if he was truly repentant, he would turn over the names of gang members that he knows and work on destroying the gang itself. Which he doesn't.

7. He claims this adds to his character, it shows me that he is simply a character actor. Mr williams is not the victim in this case, there are 4 innocent people, one family almost wiped out save a brother, and a father who was working another job as a clerk so that he could afford to get custody of his daughters.

8. Mr. Williams should no more be given clemency than should Scott Peterson, another man convicted of murder on highly circumstantial evidence. But, I doubt that we will see the public uproar to save ole Scott, much like we didn't see it save Mr. Beardslee.

9. If Mr. Williams, would at the very least admit the crimes, and apologize for them, then I may be more inclined to allow clemency, and for his testimony to children to be weighed as something useful in their lives, as it stands, it only goes to show that you can in fact, get away with murder.

10. It has been stated that executing Mr Williams will not bring the victims back, no it won't. It will do nothing more than carry out the sentence that a 12 person jury unanimously decided was appropriate punishment for the crime that they unanimously convicted him of. He has had due process, and the conviction, and sentence has stuck. His guilt to my satisfaction, has been established more than beyond a reasonable doubt.

Is execution vengeance? possibly, I have stated this before. But what is life without parole, if not vengeance? What is a punishment for a crime if it is inflicting of loss upon the murderer. He should lose the same thing that he has taken from 4 innocents.

If he has truly repented, then when he dies, he goes to whatever God he subscribes to and will be judged by him, either forgiven or damned...if he has repented, then forgiveness is his and he has nothing to fear






If this man is a hero to our nation's youth, then I believe we have more issues than we will EVER be able to overcome.

[MrSlayer]

1. Good job. I couldn't agree more.

I was working on a similar thread myself.

[dutchdemocrat]

207. By posting these photos

You are providing hits for a RW wing website - which in return - provides revenue and gives them more status then they deserve.

So tell me... do you often hang around sites like The John and Ken show? Two guys riding the anti-immigration wave to pay the bills?

[dutchdemocrat]

209. Well...

An execution cannot be used to condemn killing. Such an act by the state is the mirror image of the criminal's willingness to use physical violence against a victim. Additionally, all criminal justice systems are vulnerable to discrimination and error. No system is or could conceivably be capable of deciding fairly, consistently and infallibly who should live and who should die. Expediency, discretionary decisions and prevailing public opinion may influence the proceedings from the initial arrest to the last-minute decision on clemency.

Central to human rights is that they are inalienable -- they are accorded equally to every individual regardless of status, ethnicity, religion or origin. They may not be taken away from anyone regardless of the crimes a person has committed. Human rights apply to the worst of us as well as to the best of us, which is why they are there to protect all of us. They save us from ourselves.

In addition experience demonstrates that whenever the death penalty is used some people will be killed while others who have committed similar or even worse crimes may be spared. The prisoners executed are not necessarily only those who committed the worst crimes, but also those who were too poor to hire skilled lawyers to defend them or those who faced harsher prosecutors or judges.

[stepnw1f]

2. Yeah And?

Kill more? What's wrong with you?

[KC_25]

3. Did you read the text?

What is wrong with you?

[Dances with Cats]

6. I remember responding to another of your vapid posts earlier...

I hope I can find it....

[KC_25]

11. so, did you read the text?

[Dances with Cats]

21. I'll go read it more thouroughly right now.

talk later....

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

24. Stating an opinion, perhaps?

...a thoroughly-explained opinion at that.

You don't have to agree, but there's a valid argument in there.

[KC_25]

27. What was the verdict and sentence handed down by a jury?

It seems to me that his latest clemency plea is based on redemption...too have been redeemed, you have to have commited a crime, which he does not take responsibilty for.
but hey, you want him to live, more power to you. it is your right, just the same as it is my right to try and convince people that a 4 time murderous thug doesnt deserve clemency.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

45. Hey, I encouraged him to post it...

...been around since 2001....11k+ post count...and I agree with him.

Am I a "freeper" too?

[Dances with Cats]

69. As far as I am concerned, anyone can post ANYTHING they like.

If you feel strongly about it, why didn't you post it yourslef? Your prolific posts mean nothing to me other than the fact that you evidently discovered this site a long timne before I did. And if you advocate state sponsored killing then you are embracing a freeper stance.

[MercutioATC]

100. Then why ask if he's a freeper?

I didn't post it myself because it wasn't my work. I'm glad that he decided to post it himself. My "prolific posts" aren't supposed to impress anybody...just illustrate that there are some who agree with this poster's opinion who are not "freepers" (or, if they are, are extrordinarily good at concealing it).

Support for the death penalty is no more a "freeper stance" than not supporting extended gun control. Democrats have differing opinions on a wide range of things. It's closed-minded (and against DU rules) to accuse somebody of being a "freeper" just because their opinion on an issue differs from yours.

...must be a very small tent you live in....

[Dances with Cats]

106. Don't worry about my tent.....

n/t

[MercutioATC]

111. Oh, I'm not worried....I'm just sayin'...must be reeeeeaaly small....

[Dances with Cats]

116. Definitely not room for you....

but I hope you get a chance to execute somebody someday. I'll sleep better in my tiny tent knwoing that you dispatched somebody to hell.

[MercutioATC]

120. Fair enough.

Good luck with that...

[Texasgal]

87. Yeah...we are all

FREEPERS ya know..

If we don't agree... :sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

114. Hey! It's you!

You always seem to wind up on the "wrong" side of these discussions...

...I like that!

:)

[dutchdemocrat]

206. What do China, The Congo (DRC), Iran, Pakistan, and US have in Common?

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/juveniles/factsheet.html

Since 2000, only five countries in the world are known to have executed juvenile offenders: China, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Iran, Pakistan, and the United States. Pakistan and China have abolished the juvenile death penalty, but there have been problems in nationwide compliance with the law.

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

, 1995, states: “Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offenses committed by persons below 18 years of age.” The United States and Somalia are the only countries in the world that have not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

[MercutioATC]

226. Tookie's a minor?

I see your point, but this particular argument doesn't apply in this case...

[dutchdemocrat]

231. It's relevant

It shows the inhumanity and extent to which the US misuses DP.

[QC]

74. Calling people freepers is a rules violation.

It's also the surest sign that someone doesn't have an intelligent response.

[Dances with Cats]

82. Well EXCUSE me......

and I'll match my intellgence against yours anytime. Impugning someones intellgence should be a "RULES VIOLATION!" Not that I'd care if it was, let alone point it out.

[QC]

91. "Impugning someones intellgence"

ROFLMAO! :silly:

Just trying to help you not get your posts deleted, since you're new here and everything.

[Dances with Cats]

102. Thanks I guess

I might be new here but I've been around a L-O-N-G time.

[Dances with Cats]

109. Lots of deleted posts

but none of them mine.....

[QC]

115. #40 was yours.

Keep running around calling everyone who has the nerve to disagree with you freepers and you'll get a lot more deleted.

[Dances with Cats]

117. I wish I'd remember what the hell it said

I'd post it again. What else can you NOT call someone here?

[MercutioATC]

186. You suggested that the OP was a "freeper".

[Dances with Cats]

221. Oh yeah, OK,

Thanks for reminding me. I hope youfind this post though, at least last night you were a night time poster. Whatever i don't think this thread is going away so perhaps you will find it. As for calling the OP a "freeper" :
#1 I didn't know that was a RULES VIOLATION even though that would not necessarily deter me if I felt like calling somebody one.
#2. If it walks like a ducks, quacks like a duck, etc....welll then what the heck can you conclude other than it is a duck?

[Warpy]

17. What good is killing him going to do anybody?

Should the state be in the business of revenge for families of murdered people? I can see no other purpose being served by this execution.

Should the state be in the business of protecting us from murderers? The state can do that by locking them up.

Just what the hell do you expect to accomplish by killing this man or any other murderer?

And yes, I speak as a survivor of a family murder.

[stepnw1f]

26. Exactly... (nt)

[dutchdemocrat]

213. The Death Penalty is Arbitrary and Unfair

The Death Penalty is Arbitrary and Unfair

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/arbitraryandunfair.html

“Twenty years have passed since this Court declared that the death penalty must be imposed fairly, and with reasonable consistency, or not at all, and, despite the effort of the states and courts to devise legal formulas and procedural rules to meet this daunting challenge, the death penalty remains fraught with arbitrariness, discrimination, caprice, and mistake.”
– U.S. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, February 22, 1994

The death penalty is unfair because

* Ninety-five percent of death row inmates cannot afford their own attorney. Court-appointed attorneys often lack the experience necessary for capital trials and are overworked and underpaid. In the most extreme cases, some have slept through parts of trials or have arrived under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.
* Prosecutors seek the death penalty far more frequently when the victim of a homicide is white than when the victim is African-American or of another ethnic/racial origin.

Executions by Region

The death penalty is arbitrary because

* Co-defendants charged with committing the same crime often receive different punishments, where one defendant may receive a death sentence while another receives prison time.
* Approximately two percent of those convicted of crimes that make them eligible for the death penalty actually receive a death sentence.
* Each prosecutor decides whether or not to seek the death penalty. Local politics, the location of the crime, plea bargaining, and pure chance affect the process and make it a lottery of who lives and who dies.
* Since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 80% of all executions have taken place in the South. The Northeast accounts for less than 1% of executions.

[stepnw1f]

238. Thanks for This (nt)

[Dances with Cats]

4. Hell no he isn't a fucking hero ....BUT!

Capital Punishment and the Death Penalty isn't anything to be proud of. Killing is killing, whoever "pulls the switch" On Tookie is just as guilty of murder as he is.

[kliljedahl]

32. Murder is Murder

Whether done by an individual or state sanctioned. Wrong in both cases. I'm sick of hearing "closure". although that hasn't appeared in this thread yet. I'm sure it will.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[dutchdemocrat]

212. The Death Penalty Costs More

The Death Penalty Costs More

"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis."
-- Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999

Recent Cost Studies

* A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)
* The estimated costs for the death penalty in New York since 1995 (when it was reinstated): $160 million, or approximately $23 million for each person sentenced to death. To date, no executions have been carried out.
(The Times Union, Sept. 22, 2003)
* In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)


The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences.

* Trials in which the prosecutor is seeking a death sentence have two separate and distinct phases: conviction (guilt/innocence) and sentencing. Special motions and extra time for jury selection typically precede such trials.
* More investigative costs are generally incurred in capital cases, particularly by the prosecution.
* When death penalty trials result in a verdict less than death or are reversed, taxpayers first incur all the extra costs of capital pretrial and trial proceedings and must then also pay either for the cost of incarcerating the prisoner for life or the costs of a retrial (which often leads to a life sentence).


The death penalty diverts resources from genuine crime control measures. Spending money on the death penalty system means

* Reducing the resources available for crime prevention, mental health treatment, education and rehabilitation, meaningful victims’ services, and drug treatment programs.
* Taking it away from existing components of the criminal justice system, such as prosecutions of drug crimes, domestic violence, and child abuse.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/cost.html

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. I don't understand

the demand that he admit guilt. What if - I never paid much attention to the case - he's not guilty? What if he didn't kill them?

I mean, what's the point of demanding that from him as a condition precedent to considering his petition for clemency? It makes no sense.

Bloodlust. It's just horrible. We're supposed to be "civilized."

Right.

What will be accomplished by putting this man to death?

[KC_25]

8. So if he is not guilty

why are they trying to get him freed? Why not state their case that he is innocent? Oh yeah, because 25 years of legal wrangling and his conviction still holds, in the 9th circuit court of all places.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

22. I said I didn't know

I do know that people get convicted when they're not guilty. I have no knowledge of the details of the case, but I am very familiar with the ways things go wrong for a lot of defendants, and those errors are never corrected.

Again, why the bloodlust? What will it accomplish?

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. So why does he not admit his guilt?

I will admit I haven't followed this as closely as others here have. But I keep hearing that he has not admitted killing these people. Was he just an accomplice and someone else actually pulled the trigger?

[MadisonProgressive]

151. As far as I understand - he was convicted with circumstantial

evidence and the testimony of someone that was cutting a deal for himself. So it is theoretically possible that he didn't commit the crime. Maybe that's why he won't admit it. I am against the death penalty in ALL CASES.

[MercutioATC]

166. You did read the text of the OP, didn't you?

It makes reference to those issues.

[MadisonProgressive]

177. You won't convince me that murder is acceptable.

[MercutioATC]

178. Not trying to, just endorsing putting the discussion out there.

[Poppyseedman]

9. Tookie is a changed man. Prison has taught him a whole new game

He is now a first class con man as well as a first class murderering thug.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. I'm sorry, but, no matter what side you are on, posting these photos

over and over again on the board is no better than Bush using 9/11 graphics continuously. It is utterly disrespectful and shows how far even those who think they are acting "righteously" on behalf of the victims will stoop. If I were a relative I would hate you right now. Thank You, and please think next time.

[KC_25]

14. but we should be able to post photos of abu gharib?

and the pictures of dead soldiers?

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. If we post them over and over again to make a point, it is just as bad.

I am not a fan of graphic point making. Show the coffins to create the impact, fine! But remember, many thought it wasn't fine to parade Hussein's sons across the nations newspapers either. You'll not find me demanding imagery in any thread on this board...ever. Knowing is enough. I am ashamed at the actions of the people who have taken it upon themselves to post these. Believe me, you're not the first.

[RagingInMiami]

195. If you don't like the photos

Don't look at them. I hate censorship in the name of decency.

[Dances with Cats]

42. We should be able to post photos of any Goddam thing....

...with the exception of child porn.

[Thtwudbeme]

199. How sad that you can't recognize the difference between "any

goddamned thing" and bodies of people.

[MercutioATC]

30. I completely disagree.

There have been numerous threads painting Tookie as a "victim of racism" and a "changed man". I think it's important to actually SEE what it is he did.

It's easy to say "He was convicted of killing four people but he's a victim of this or that."

It's not nearly as easy to excuse him when you look at these pictures and realize that Tookie actually DID that to another person. That's of value, in my opinion.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. I'm sorry, that is still not a decent enough excuse for DUers to post

these ad nauseum. Any time anyone does this it is for lack of compassion. Like I said in my response to OP, we weren't really happy with Saddam's son's dead faces paraded around thanks to the American Media. If anyone ever had done this to my dead girlfriend's morgue photos ( a victim of murder at the hands of her husband) I would be livid. Not a decent excuse. People know what he was accused, and convicted of, and the suffering of the victims. Visual aids are cheap entertainment for the truly morbid and not necessary to decent debate.

[MercutioATC]

49. I've only seen it posted a few times....

If there weren't 6,000 "Free Tookie" threads, there wouldn't be a reason to post them more than once.

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. They shouldn't be posted at all. Ever. I don't even care about the issue

at this point, I'm so disgusted with these pitiful attempts that have massive potential to cause a great deal of distress to the family's involve. And you dodged the question...and the statement I made.

[MercutioATC]

60. There was a question in your post?

I don't see one.

As for the statement you made, I just responded to your identical statement in Post #57.

[ScreamingMeemie]

67. No you didn't. Why be upset with RW propaganda concerning 9/11?

the Hussein sons? The Florida drunk driving class? This is so damned hypocritical it would be funny if it wasn't so morbid.

[MercutioATC]

89. Why would I be upset if they posted it on FR? I wouldn't.

...much the same way that I don't see a problem with posting images here.

If THAT doesn't answer your "question", please repost it. I'd be happy to answer if I could figure out what the hell you were asking.

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. Mercutio, you're dodging the subject. I'm sure you will now play

holier than thou...You were okay with the parading of 9/11...Wow, you learn new things about people everyday. :shrug: You, the OP, and a few others have disgusted me beyond belief with your disregard for these victims. You are no better than Tookie.

[MercutioATC]

131. PLEASE clearly state the "subject" and I'll reply clearly.

I honestly have NO idea what you're asking.

Explain it to me like I'm a four-year-old. (and try to resist exploiting the 4-year-old thing) :)

[ScreamingMeemie]

135. How is this better? HOW is this okay when Bush using 9/11 is not

When Right to Lifers are ridiculed and hated (which I agree they should be) for the use of bloody abortion photos? When the sons of Saddam were held up as fodder for the press...paraded around the nation? We have no right to use these photo to attempt to whip people up. That, in a nutshell is all you guys are doing. I thought DU was better than that. Issues aside, it's hypocritical to promote. That's what you're not answering...and I doubt you will, because I have questioned you quite clearly and simply several times. Like I told Walt, I hope a member of your family is never used in this manner.

[MercutioATC]

142. Work with me for a minute here (graphic image)

This is perhaps the most heartbreaking image I've seen from this war.



People have used it in numerous posts and on numerous websites to illustrate the brutality of the war in Iraq. Not as "trophy photos" like the administration did with Saddam's sons' photos, but as a graphic illustration of the consequences of this administration's actions.

Are they "barbaric" for posting the photos in the context in which they were posted?

[ScreamingMeemie]

150. Judgement made. That photo was overused to attempt to prove

a point. A point we already knew. Babies were being killed. Just because we are against the war doesn't make it right that we do the same thing we accuse them of. Trophy photos, photos used to whip people up....never something I support.

[MercutioATC]

157. O.K., then we have a simple difference of opinion.

I think photos like that were IMPORTANT for people to see. It's one thing to talk about "civilian casualties". It's another thing entirely to look at that picture.

It's that spirit in which I'm supporting the use of the images in this post. We may not agree, but I hope, possibly, you understand where I'm coming from.

[ScreamingMeemie]

159. No, I'm sorry...I can't. Because the thread is disgusting.

Plain and simple. I'll agree to disagree, but I will continue to hold those who post here in support of this as no better than Bush and his friends.

[MercutioATC]

164. Fair enough.

I think "disgusting" has value, at times, but I understand your position.

[dutchdemocrat]

219. Using the FreeperDU logic

Whomever dropped this bomb should be tried and executed.

Oh wait...

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. I agree Mrs. Grumpy

These are almost as bad as that damned abortion truck the RW brings out to political rallies.

And regardless of which side you come down on in this particular issue, posting these pics is extremely disrespectful to the families of these victims.

[ScreamingMeemie]

160. Thank you proud2B.

:hi:

[AirmensMom]

70. Thank you, MrsGrumpy.

I agree with you 100%. We do not need to see these photos.

[MercutioATC]

96. You ARE free not to look at them, you know....

Some of us feel that they're valuable to the discussion. Those who don't wish to see them got a warning in the title.

[AirmensMom]

107. The warning was not there in other threads.

Posting them is insensitive and exploitive. If they were pictures of my loved ones, I would be angry beyond words at the people posting them. If you can't have a discussion without them, you must not have very strong points to make.

[MercutioATC]

112. Then that's a valid point in those OTHER threads...

There WAS a warning here.

I disagree with your statement about the strangth of the argument. The text of the OP is thoughtfully presented. Agree or not, they are "strong points". The pictures illustrate the brutality of the real Tookie (obviously quite a different Tookie than some posters here have created). Some here feel they add to the discussion.

[AirmensMom]

113. Some here like to look at blood.

And call for more killing. :shrug:

[MercutioATC]

118. Some here like to discuss issues and see a range of opinions.

Some here like to be able to see a case presented without censorship.

[AirmensMom]

134. Not censorship ...

but a touch of sensitivity, which is sorely lacking with the display of these photos.

[ScreamingMeemie]

141. These were posted with little regard to the victims. It is now evident

that OP could care less about the victims. For OP, and others, it's merely about trying to whip people up and get them over to
"their side", much like Bushco would do.

[MercutioATC]

145. I'd refer you to Post #142 for my response.

[ScreamingMeemie]

156. Saw it read it, doesn't change my position. We are no better when

we use these visuals.

[MercutioATC]

169. Then we, too, will just have to agree to disagree.

[ScreamingMeemie]

130. Knowing they were murdered is not enough. Some think that using these

photos will stir up anger against the convicted....much like 9/11 was used to whip us in to a frenzy of patriotism...but somehow, this is different. :puke:

[AirmensMom]

163. I can barely contain my disgust, MrsGrumpy.

I cannot accept that it's OK to use photos of someone's loved ones in such a self-serving way to encourage more violence. :puke:is right!

[chrisau214]

227. I can't speak for these victims families

But, as someone who has had both a relative and a friend murdered, I have to say that I would applaud anyone who took the time to post pictures of what had happened to my friends and relatives if the poster were attempting to show the horrific nature of what a ruthless killer had done. Especially on a site that was regularly proclaiming that their killer was in some way heroic. Hell I would probably post the pictures myself.

However, having seen the photos, and having lived through the ordeal of dealing with the murder of two people I knew, I still can not support the death penalty.


Chris

[dutchdemocrat]

215. The Death Penalty Claims Innocent Lives

The Death Penalty Claims Innocent Lives

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/factsinnocence.html

Since 1973, more than 115 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 innocent defendants were released from death row.

Governor Ryan
“I cannot support a system which, in its administration, has proven so fraught with error and has come so close to the ultimate nightmare, the state’s taking of innocent life… Until I can be sure that everyone sentenced to death in Illinois is truly guilty, until I can be sure with moral certainty that no innocent man or woman is facing a lethal injection, no one will meet that fate.”
-- Governor George Ryan of Illinois, January 2000, in declaring a moratorium on executions in his state, after the 13th Illinois death row inmate had been released from prison due to wrongful conviction. In the same time period, 12 others had been executed. (photo © AFP)

Examples of wrongful convictions

North Carolina: Charles Munsey, died in 1999

* Sentenced to death and spent six years in prison for a crime to which another man had confessed. He won a new trial shortly before dying in prison.


Virginia: Earl Washington, pardoned in 2000

* Spent 17 years in prison before receiving a full pardon. DNA testing proved his innocence of the rape and murder for which he was convicted. Washington, who suffers from mild mental retardation, came within one week of execution in 1985. He was released from prison in February 2001.


Arizona: Ray Krone, released in 2002

* Spent 10 years in prison in Arizona, including time on death row, for a murder he did not commit. He was the 100th person to be released from death row since 1973. DNA testing proved his innocence.


Illinois: Madison Hobley, Aaron Patterson, Stanley Howard and LeRoy Orange, pardoned in 2003

* Sent to death row on the basis of "confessions" extracted through the use of torture by former Chicago Police Commander Jon Burge and other Area 2 police officers in Chicago. They were pardoned by outgoing Governor George Ryan, who also commuted the remaining 167 death sentences in Illinois to life imprisonment.


Factors leading to wrongful convictions include

* Inadequate legal representation
* Police and prosecutorial misconduct
* Perjured testimony and mistaken eyewitness testimony
* Racial prejudice
* Jailhouse “snitch” testimony
* Suppression and/or misinterpretation of mitigating evidence
* Community/political pressure to solve a case

[MadisonProgressive]

155. I agree. It's disgusting and unnecessary.

If I want to look at stuff like that I'll visit Ogrish.com.

[stevebreeze]

12. What about the guards who send time doing their job and must

now complete a murder of their own in the performance of their jobs? I don't know if Tookie deserves to die or not, but who deserves to have to murder to him?

[bluestateguy]

13. I support the death penalty

and I think we ought to use it against corporate white collar criminals as well. Enron, Tyco, WoldCom. Those executives should be subject to the death penalty.

[KC_25]

16. get em in a capital case,

[Dances with Cats]

28. Alright, I read the text (see post #11 or maybe #12...)

You make a few points, I'll grant you that. But isn't killing still killing? If it isn't, would you please explain to me how it isn't?

[Dances with Cats]

25. THAT would truly be the day, haha...

[madeline_con]

15. Aside form his wonderful work with children...

did he find Jesus, too? :puke:

[MercutioATC]

20. Thanks for posting this.

It's important, sometimes, to be able to see the damage somebody's inflicted.

Whether you agree with the death penalty or not, Tookie is NO hero and this is NOT a racial issue. He killed four people and is unrepentant. He deserves to be punished.

[dutchdemocrat]

214. The Death Penalty Is Not a Deterrent

The Death Penalty Is Not a Deterrent

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/deterrence.html

A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

FBI data showed that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average.
Homicide Rates of Death Penalty and Non-Death Penalty States

The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime.

Rather than show evidence of any deterrent effect, research studies reveal that the death penalty has a brutalizing effect:

* Researchers did a comparison of murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder in Oklahoma between 1989 and 1991, and found a significant increase in murders (both felony and non-felony) after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
* Researchers Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides in 293-paired counties. Pairings were based on: geographic location and demographic and economic variables; a shared contiguous border; differing use of capital punishment. The authors found higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties.
* The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the South repeatedly has the highest murder rate. In 1999, it was the only region with a murder rate above the national rate. The South accounts for 80% of executions. The Northeast, which accounts for less than 1% of all executions in the U.S., has the lowest murder rate.

[ck4829]

23. The woman in the first photo...

She did not die instantly, she survived for a while.

OMG, that is something that I would not wish upon the worst RW'er.

[Dances with Cats]

Did you ever see a photo of someone fried in the Electric Chair?

n/t

[ck4829]

35. Yes

Just commenting on what happened, I don't think he should be executed.

I don't support the DP unless the murderer is 'ghoulish' (Kills by decapitation, child murderer, etc.)

I think he has reformed and he should spend the rest of his life behind bars.

[Dances with Cats]

44. I agree..

..n/t.

[phylny]

175. I don't support the death penalty in any case, but for a different reason.

I think the WORST punishment is having to live your life out in a jail cell with no possibility of parole. Ever. The removal of freedom, to me, would be horrible. Death is a way out.

I'd rather see people in jail until they're 103 years old than executed at 38 years old.

[Kali]

189. I have thought of this too

Jail and the DP certainly aren't very effective deterents, are they simply punishment? If so I suppose they fit that catagory. Do we believe that all people can and deserve to be rehabilitated? The system doesn't seem to really believe that. (nor do I) So what is the goal? To punish? To remove from existance? Vengence?

If the goal is maximum punishment, then I would think it would have to be looked at case by case. For the guy who wanted to die, perhaps forcing him to live is heavier punishment, like you said. If the other way around --- well.

Personally I think there are times when vengence is needed. My problem is with the slack and inherent racism and classism in the system. One mistake is enough for me to say hold - on lets at least find a better way to make sure we are correct BEFORE we even have the debate about the state taking lives.

[dutchdemocrat]

211. The Death Penalty is Racially Biased

The Death Penalty is Racially Biased

Race of Homicide Victims in Cases Resulting in a Death Sentence


In a 1990 report, the non-partisan U.S. General Accounting Office found “a pattern of evidence indicating racial disparities in the charging, sentencing, and imposition of the death penalty.” The study concluded that a defendant was several times more likely to be sentenced to death if the murder victim was white. This confirms the findings of many other studies that, holding all other factors constant, the single most reliable predictor of whether someone will be sentenced to death is the race of the victim.

Underlying the statistical evidence is the differential treatment of African-Americans at every turn in the criminal justice system. From initial charging decisions to plea bargaining to jury sentencing, African-Americans are treated more harshly when they are defendants, and their lives are accorded less value when they are victims. Furthermore, all-white or virtually all-white juries are still commonplace in many localities.

* A 1998 study of the city of Philadelphia found that, even after making allowances for case differences, the odds of receiving a death sentence in Philadelphia are nearly four times higher if the defendant is African-American. (David Baldus, et al., Race Discrimination and the Death Penalty in the Post-Furman Era. Cornell Law Review, September 1998.)
* In March 1998, Kentucky became the first state to pass a Racial Justice Act. This Act allows defendants to use statistical evidence of racial discrimination to show that race influenced the decision to seek the death penalty. If the judge finds that race was a factor, the death penalty would be barred. The U.S. House of Representatives has passed a similar bill twice, but it has been defeated in the Senate.
* In May 2002, the Governor of Maryland imposed a moratorium on executions because of racial bias in the state’s death penalty system. A January 2003 study released by the University of Maryland concluded that race and geography are major factors in death penalty decisions. Specifically, prosecutors are more likely to seek a death sentence when the race of the victim is white and are less likely to seek a death sentence when the victim is African-American.

“We simply cannot say we live in a country that offers equal justice to all Americans when racial disparities plague the system by which our society imposes the ultimate punishment.” --Senator Russ Feingold on Civil Rights as a Priority for the 108th Congress, Senate, January 2003

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/racialprejudices.html

[XemaSab]

56. Who said anything about the electric chair?

I'm strongly anti-death penalty, but if he's put to death, it'll be by lethal injection.

[Dances with Cats]

72. I did

and my point was that they are equally gruesome.

[wtmusic]

66. Electric chair not used in CA for a long, long time nt

[Silverhair]

183. CA uses lethal injection. NT

[Yollam]

29. I agree on every point, but these grisly photos are not going to help...

... to change anybody's mind.

Nobody should be executed, there should be a moratorium on executions, but this thug is no more deserving of clemency than anyone else on death row.

The "Free Tookie" crowd are operating on an emotional basis rather than a rational one anyway. The notion that he has "saved thousands of lives" is downright ludicrous. He had some trite little books ghost-written. Big whoop. Anyone who was inspired to leave gangs by his books is to be commended, but saying "he saved their lives" is a HUGE stretch.

There are plenty of other former gang members out there trying to help kids who never murdered 4 innocent people.

Really, these pictures are awful. Maybe you can post them as URLS that people can click to see?

[MercutioATC]

34. I understand your point, but I disagree.

Post #30 explains why.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. No. It really doesn't.

I'm not buying that line. We're just as guilty of what we accuse the RW of doing. We know without needing to see pictures that could potentially put a victim's family in anguish. Remember the story of the girl in Florida who took driver's ed and one of the photos shown in a drunk driving lesson was of her father? Remember the outrage? :shrug: It's okay though, if it's us using the pictures. Sigh....

[MercutioATC]

57. How many people do you think visit DU??

This isn't a national media outlet, it's more of a private club. If you're just concerned about the families seeing this post, you can probably relax.

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. No, it's more than that...it's the thoughtless careless posting of this.

The OP has no right to use these photographs to further his/her point. I won't relax as long as there are flaming hypocrites on this board. Sorry. You still haven't answered why it's okay for us to do, and not for the RW. Care to answer...? Why are we so horrified at their antics? You're not making your case very well.

[MercutioATC]

93. It's just FINE for the RW to post images on their message boards!

Why would that bother me?

I'd argue that the pictures are in the public domain and that the OP has EVERY right to use them to illustrate his stance. I'd further argue that anybody who is offended by this type of image got ample warning in the title.

Why the problem with this?

[Kali]

94. Mrs Grumpy...

I understand where you are coming from, and I am so sorry you have been close to a murder situation. I am not sure that everybody would feel that way. I am especially thinking of the story of Emmitt Till.

I have no idea how the families of these victims feel, but I can see the possibility that if one wanted justice, using graphic and disturbing visuals could be a tool. I'm not at all sure I wouldn't do it myself. Hope I NEVER have to decide.

I think the issue with the Saddam sons photos were not so much the graphic images but the fact that they were being shown as trophies. If they were shown as evidence of the brutality of war or violence, I doubt there would have been the objection - it was to to the motivation for doing so.

[ScreamingMeemie]

138. And 9/11? Not a trophy. Used to whip up the crowd much like these

are. It is hypocritical, EXTREME hypocrisy to post these pictures, my own personal history aside. Remember the girl in Florida who's father was used as an educational tool in her own driver's education class. Sigh... It is the same thing. It is the misuse of suffering to prove one's righteousness. As AirmansMom said...no better than the Right to lifers and they dead baby wagons.

[friesianrider]

185. The Right to Life baby wagons really annoy me, however...

(Mostly because the photos are fabricated or otherwise enhanced/fabricated/misleading/etc.)

But anyway...however, for the real photos of aborted babies (and I say this as someone fanatically pro-choice!), it is what it is. :shrug: If people don't know what it is they are doing, they need to know. It's like I am a vegetarian, and so often people are like "oooh, I don't want to see the photos from inside the slaughterhouses and the photos of downed and disemboweled animals in slaughterhouses! It makes me too sad (while ordering a steak)" Well...that's too bad. If you can't take a good look at what happens when you kill an animal in a slaughterhouse or when you brutally murder someone, then maybe you should rethink your position on the issue. It's like saying we should never show photos of the Iraqi children whose arms we blew off with our bombs, or whose faces were partly blown off from shrapnel. People need to KNOW what murder is, what war is, what slaughterhouses are, etc, and until you've actually seen it in real life photos, you really don't get it. You can't get it. It's so easy to say "he shot someone in the face." That is a brutal enough statement, and of course we all know what murder is and slaughter is. But when you actually SEE what someone who was shot in the face looks like, one just doesn't understand, and one can't fully understand.

I really totally understand your position, and have struggled with which side I agree with for a long time. But in the end, as long as the photos of any event are honest and real, they should be shown.

[Kali]

188. yeah I can see that - I suppose the anti abortion crowd

uses the "education" label to justify as well.

I never heard of the Florida case you mention - how horrible! But surely someone had to have given permission to release the material???

Still I can't help thinking of how the press hides the realities of war from us and the fight to keep the torture photos hidden. If we don't see the suffering how can we know about it? (and the classic example I mentioned of Emmett Till)

What if the victims' families wanted the photos to be shown?

[ScreamingMeemie]

58. Thank you Yollam. If I were a member of the families of these victims

I would be horrified right now.

[Stand and Fight]

31. The Death Penalty is NEVER right.

Period.

I understand the grief that the families suffered, but killing him -- guilty or innocent -- is not going to bring back their family members. The death penalty is not a deterrent and it is a disgusting practice. Damn sick.

If you support the death penalty then perhaps you ought to go to hell.

[MrSlayer]

38. "You support the death penalty then you ought to go to hell."

Brilliant! Isn't that a bit judgmental from someone in the "stop being so judgmental" crowd? :7

[Stand and Fight]

39. Bullshit... Good try though.

What the fuck are you talking about? When did I say, "Stop being so judgmental." Right! I didn't!

[MercutioATC]

43. I can't reply if you keep changing your posts every time you get called on

something...

:eyes:

[Stand and Fight]

47. First off...

When did I say, "Stop being so judgmental"? I didn't. So right back at you, buddy. :eyes: You're not worth my time. Good day.

[MercutioATC]

53. Good day!

:hi: :)

[MrSlayer]

54. Nice edits to try to get yourself off the hook.

You're just salty because you got busted. :P

[Stand and Fight]

63. No.

Stating my point as I intended. Get myself off the hook for what? The statement was harsher than I intended, and I edited it. So what. Who the hell are you, the message police? :evilgrin:

[MrSlayer]

71. HaHa YES!

Nobody expects the Message Police!!! BWAHAHAHA!!

[Stand and Fight]

77. Fuck... Damn... Okay, cuff me!

It's cool. Honestly, I thought it was too harsh of a use of language and what I was trying to get across. :)

[MrSlayer]

83. That's cool.

I was only busting chops anyway.

[MrSlayer]

48. Yeah now that you edited it.

You think I was born yesterday?

:hi:

[MercutioATC]

41. Why do you have to resort to personal attacks to state your opinion?

There are people who agree with the death penalty. There are those who don't. Both groups are, if I understand the Constitution correctly, entitled to have those beliefs and to state them freely.

At what point does "going to hell" enter that process?

[Stand and Fight]

59. Stating my opinion...

At what point does my right to state my opinion that perhaps someone ought to go to hell LEAVE the "process"? Look... I feel strongly about this for a very personal reason.

I've lost a loved one to murder. A couple of young thugs did it on her way to the fucking grocery store. Killing the men who did it won't do anything but take away someone else's loved one. I have had that pain and I don't want anyone else to feel it -- just because it would supposedly make me feel better. I would feel worst to see someone else suffer. It has to stop somewhere. Another death only serves to hurt more people. It is not that I don't believe in it. It is that I know -- from first-hand experience -- that it DOES NOT WORK as a deterrent or as as righter of wrongs.

[MercutioATC]

79. You seem to have a very well-founded opinion.

I think the OP details a very well-founded opinion also.

I don't see the need to suggest that somebody go to hell.

[Stand and Fight]

88. Hogwash...

I don't see the need to kill someone else's loved one. That's what I really don't see the need for. I find it funny that you take such offense to that, but no offense to the pictures posted or someone advocating killing another human being with such vehemence.

There is nothing well-founded in his opinion but an opinion unfounded on personal experience. You go through the experience, think real long and hard about what happened -- think about the pain you've suffered, think about the pain someone else will suffer when their loved one is killed in the name of "avenging" you, and then think really, really, really long about if it will make you feel any better. Then you come back and advocate MURDER to me. Let's see where that leaves you and your friends "very well-founded opinion."

[MercutioATC]

92. Are you saying that your opinion is more valuable than the OP author's

because he doesn't have first-hand experience and you do? I'm just trying to get a handle on your position.

[Stand and Fight]

98. YES. Experience makes a difference.

Colors your outlook and fine-tunes it. My experience gives me a unique perspective from within rather than without.

[MercutioATC]

103. WOW! I really wasn't expecting that!

You're actually saying that your OPINION is more valuable than somebody else's...


Maybe we should restrict discussion of all death penalty issues until somebody with a "more valuable opinion" has a chance to determine the merit of the post?

Christ......

[Endangered Specie]

61. Personal attacks are all they have left

[Stand and Fight]

73. "Personal attacks are all THEY have left"?

Number one -- Who is this "they"?

Number two -- What greater personal attack is there than murdering someone?

Rather a state or individual does it; it is wrong. It's got nothing to do with personal attacks. It's about the kind of people we desire to be as a society. State sanctioned murder is not going to stop the horrid crime from occurring again. We need to study and eliminate the cause of it -- not the symptoms.

[stepnw1f]

84. Nice Catch! (nt)

[MadisonProgressive]

171. Absolutely agree

The most disgusting thing to me is that some of the biggest proponents of the death penalty are so called 'Christians'. Well, if that's what Jesus would do, count me out!

[RagingInMiami]

196. You go to hell

You self-righteous bastard.

[Nordmadr]

203. Wow, with all the posts I've read in this thread wih the

back and forth in this discusion, THIS is the first post I have had a problem with. How would you propose this person go to hell? If you believe in that sort of thing...people go to hell by getting dead. How do you propose they get dead?

I used to be a strong supporter of the death penalty. Now, I am somewhat weakened in that regard and much more unsure of my position. I know one thing though, if any of those folks were my family, and I was around at the time of the shootings, he better have hoped I was not armed.

I believe that in many cases this kind of gruesome reality check with photos is just the sort of thing people need to see, often these photos break my heart. However, warnings should always exist before posting so people can brace themselves, or if they haven't got the stomach, can avoid it. The picture of the little girl, as well as many other photos of that sort, have firmly strengthened my resolve against the mistakes of this war. The touched me in a way that simply reading about it can not do. You have to see it. Only then do you understand. That is my opinion. If you don't agree that is fair enough, my having that opinion does not affect you.

I do not know if Tookie should die as well. I can not imagine the terror one must feel as they are strapped in for their injection, especially if you are innocent, and we all know innocent people have been executed. Unjustly depriving even one person of that life is hard to accept, but things in this life are often not so black or white. As I have said, I am unsettled on this issue.

Olafr

Edited for spelling ONLY.

[BluGrl]

246. It's about common sense.

I don't believe in hell but I believe in self defense.

The death penalty should never be used as retribution but as a means to protect society (including the prison community) from the most violent and dangerous offenders. How can prisoners be rehabilitated when they are forced to live, eat and sleep with murderers and child killers?

It's about common sense.

[Deja Q]

33. Nominated and kicked.

Wookie can say he's found God all he wants.

He ensured his victims met God LONG before they were due. And the pics prove how vicious Wookie bestowed death unto his victims.

This "man" is a hero to nobody.

And if anybody thinks he is a hero, force them to LIVE in the same house with the guy and prove the rest of us wrong.

Repentence works for some things. Murder is not one of them. Man was not created to kill one another. Not ever.

[Stand and Fight]

36. What a clueless statement...

"Repentance works for some things. Murder is not one of them. Man was not created to kill one another. Not ever."

Yet you support state sanctioned murder?

Give me a fucking break.

[stepnw1f]

65. lol (nt)

[Don Claybrook]

46. Well, maybe we weren't intended to kill each other

but we have been since the dawn of time.

This isn't about Williams for me. It's about the kind of society I want to live in, namely, a non-bloodthirsty and barbaric society.

[Dances with Cats]

55. So sayeth the Bible....

n/t

[High Plains]

62. "Man was note created to kill one another. Not ever."

So let's kill Tookie?

[Endangered Specie]

50. Very well written, though I had to block the images...

not up to looking at those.

[wtmusic]

68. Whoops! Reality Check...

but...but...he wrote a children's book... :silly:

[KC_25]

75. Look, folks, I hate to post and run

Esp. something so graphic as this...

I think most points are covered in the text, but feel free to post your comments/questions anyways, and when I return I will address them.

*Note* The pictures are indeed graphic, and I will not apologize for having posted them so many times throughout the other threads, however, every time that they were posted save about 3, they were completely and utterly ignored, and when they werent ignored it wasn't the tookie supporters that acknowledged them.

I'll make the statemetent right now, that if he confesses and asks forgiveness from the families, then I will call the governor and ask for clemency for the man. I will record the phone call, and host so that it could be heard. Until then, however, my heart is hardened.

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. That's okay, I've asked for them to be deleted...because this was

a completely tasteless action on your part. We all know what happened that day.

[MercutioATC]

86. ...and I asked that they be left up...because I don't believe that

we need to censor images like this on DU.

[ScreamingMeemie]

123. I sincerely wish that no one ever uses a member of your family in

this manner. :puke: And I'll continue to alert. I am stunned by you tonight.

[MercutioATC]

128. As an illustration of the brutality of their killer? I think I'd be O.K.

with that. I've never been in that position, so I suppose I don't know, really. The fact remains that DU is NOY a major media outlet and there's no expectation that the victims' families will see these posts.

You'll get used to it...I occasionally stun people.

[ScreamingMeemie]

144. I've known you a while here. And you've never sickened me. Today

you have. I have been in that position. And everyone knew Mick Fletcher shot his wife in the head in cold blood while she was 6 weeks pregnant and trusted him. We didn't need pictures to know that.

[MercutioATC]

146. Please read Post #142 before you come to a final judgement.

[MadisonProgressive]

173. Damn, you have an inflated image of your own importance.

Yes, you're heart is hard and cold. I could give a greasy shit about Stanley Williams, but killing is wrong in EVERY case other than true self-defense. And even then it's tragic and and should be regretable to anyone with any humanity.

[MercutioATC]

179. No, he's explaining that this isn't a "hit and run".

[MadisonProgressive]

181. Right.

[RC]

76. Posting stuff such as this puts you on the same level as

a person who is an accomplice to murder. And indeed you are advocating killing someone. How does that make you better than Mr. Stanley "tookie" Williams?
Your whole post is nothing more than highly biased sensationalism.


After reading your post 75 above, I now understand... It's ratings, nothing more.

[KC_25]

80. Well thanks anyways...

[Stand and Fight]

81. Well said.

That is much better said than how I could have put it.

The death penalty is wrong. Killing another person is wrong.

[Walt Starr]

85. Thank you for posting this

People have to take a hard look at the brutality of this con man.

If he were to admit his crimes and demonstrate remorse, I could see granting him clemency and have him spend the rest of his life locked up in a maximum security prison, but these crimes are beyond the pale.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams MUST BE PUT TO DEATH!

[RC]

90. I just gotta ask this.

Are you religious? Do you believe in a god? In Christ? Are you a Christian?

[Walt Starr]

95. Answers

Yes. Yes. No. No.

[RC]

121. I guess the first two are enough these days

Must the Holiday Season that is famous for Peace on earth and Good will toward men. :sarcasm:

[Walt Starr]

122. Wiiliams brought it all on himself

He should be a man and accept the consequences of his actions like a man.

[Ladyhawk]

158. What does being religious have to do with someone's point of view

on this matter?

I'm still trying to make up my mind about the death penalty, but you're implying that someone who isn't religious or isn't a Christian is incapable of morality. At least, I think that's what you're implying.

I cry foul.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectively in sympathy, education and social ties: no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Albert Einstein

I'm sure there are religionists and non-religionists on both sides of this issue.

[RC]

174. No, the opposite.

On the whole, the more religious one is the less moral they seem to be. The "kill them all and let god sort them out" mentality.

[High Plains]

97. The death penalty is the mark of a barbaric society.

[IndyOp]

104. Agreed. Revenge is *mine* sayeth the Lord. The OP is right that

someday Tookie will face his maker - and whatever happens then is between them.

:grr:

[Walt Starr]

125. I guess that might mean something, to Christians

Just words from a musty old book of myths penned by ignorant nomadic goatherds to me, though.

[Walt Starr]

105. It's the mark of a barbaric society only because of people like Williams.

[Stand and Fight]

119. I disagree, Walt. I agree with you on a lot, but not on this one, old boy

What sense does it make to kill him? Tookie Williams represents a temporary problem that will not be solved by applying a temporary solution. The permanent problem -- up to this point at least -- is people like him murdering other people. A more permanent solution to the problem is studying,identifying, and addressing the CAUSE of the problem. Then we need to find a PERMANENT SOLUTION to wipe out the cause of the problem. Killing Tookie Williams is like putting a band-aid on a sunken chest wound -- it won't work and it won't save anyone's life no matter how many times you try, friend.

[ScreamingMeemie]

124. Ummm...we know that without the thoughtless posting of these pictures.

Most people realize these people were brutally murdered. I hope no one ever uses a member of your family to prove a political point, Walt.

[Walt Starr]

129. I've seen far worse on the anti-war threads

Sorry, but it's true. And th OP did post a warning. If you couldn't take the truth, you shouldn't have clicked on the thread.

[ScreamingMeemie]

132. I didn't look at the pictures, I skipped down to reply. It's about

hypocrisy Walt. And you should know that. We were angered about Bush using 9/11 to whip us into false patriotism, so he could run roughshod over us. How is this poster using these sickening photos any different. He's not. He's just as bad. We know how these people died...again, I hope no one ever uses your loved one like this...I hope I never see you protest the use of abortion photos in public places by Right to Lifers, as another poster said.

[Walt Starr]

133. You've got the hypocrisy backwards

We used the horrible pictures of what went on in Iraq to demonstrate how vile and evil Bush is.

The OP, in the identical spirit, used the pictures of the victims to show how vile and evil Stanley "Tookie" Williams is.

[ScreamingMeemie]

136. Hypocrites...all who agree with this....hypocrites. Again, we know

what he was convicted of without parading their suffering on a message board. Compassion my ass.

[Walt Starr]

137. We knew what was going on in Iraq

without parading the suffering of the Iraqis and soldiers on a message board.

Justice does not necessarily infer compassion.

[ScreamingMeemie]

140. exactly. I am not one for showing dead babies in the sand, Walt.

coffins are one thing...Human suffering just to prove a point another.

[Walt Starr]

143. But dead babies in the sand were shown

and NOBODY complained on those threads.

Now that a celebrity mass murderer is about to get a needle jabbed in his arm, people are up in arms because one person interested in justice being carried out dared to show the horrendous nature of the crimes.

I suggest you take a good look at the first picture above. That woman remained ALIVE for a period of time after that wound was inflicted. Imagine the horror, terror, and pain she felt while Tookie Williams laughed about the noises she was making.

[ScreamingMeemie]

147. You bet I did. I will not take a look at the picture in the first thread.

I know from reading the case that she was alive. I'm not advocating Tookie, I'm condoning the actions of sickos on this board. Imagine the what it felt like for my girlfriend to be shot through the head while her husband made love to her. You know what? I cannot imagine that without pictures. I can speak to people about the horrible man Mick Fletcher was without photographic evidence, and have them be just as disgusted. And then, some are not, but I still don't parade pictures of her dead body in an attempt to change their mind. That's something Bush, Cheney and company would do.

[Walt Starr]

149. It's something DU has done in the past

and cntinues to do.

My suggestion to you is not to click on any thread that has a Graphic Picture warning.

[ScreamingMeemie]

154. I will continue to fight for decency on this board, Walt. I will continue

to alert on propagandizing threads such as this one. I will continue to be amazed that some of my fellow DUers are no better than president bush when it comes to proving a point. They'll stoop just as low.

[Walt Starr]

167. Hate to disagree, but this thread is 100% within the rules

It followed the rules to the letter by offering up the warning.

And I see it no different than anything the anti-war activists (with whom I agree) have done.

Some people must see the evil done to understand the nature of the evil.

[dutchdemocrat]

232. And therefore

The US soldiers who bombed civilians into hamburger should be given the lethal injection.

Oh wait...

They don't even get charged for murder.

ounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground... The marines kill him.

Then cheer.

Watch.

http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/warcrime/


The Marine corporal filmed shooting a wounded and unarmed man in a mosque in the video below... - in Fallujah last November - was not be charged in connection with the incident by the U.S. Marine Corps investigative body. In a statement, Maj. Gen. Richard F. Natonski said that an investigation including a review of the videotape of the shooting had determined that the Marine's action "was consistent with the established rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict."

http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/warcrime3/

[donheld]

99. Kick and Recommended

:grr: The 1,000,000 threads so far on "tookie" failed to show this side.

[dutchdemocrat]

216. The other 'side' of the death penalty....

The Death Penalty Disregards Mental Illness

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/mental_illness.html

The execution of those with mental illness or "the insane" is clearly prohibited by international law. Virtually every country in the world prohibits the execution of people with mental illness.
International Resolutions Year Excerpt
UN Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty 1984 “ ...nor shall the death sentence be carried out... on persons who have become insane.”
UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions 1997 Governments that continue to use the death penalty “with respect to minors and the mentally ill are particularly called upon to bring their domestic legislation into conformity with international legal standards.”
UN Commission on Human Rights 2000 Urges all states that maintain the death penalty “not to impose it on a person suffering from any form of mental disorder; not to execute any such person.”

U.S. Constitutional law is in line with some of these international safeguards, but does not go far enough. The execution of the insane – someone who does not understand the reason for, or the reality of, his or her punishment - violates the U.S. Constitution (Ford v. Wainwright, 1986). The Ford decision left the determination of sanity up to each state. Constitutional protections for those with other forms of mental illness are minimal, however, and numerous prisoners have been executed despite suffering from serious mental illness.

Examples

* James Colburn had an extensive history of paranoid schizophrenia when he was arrested for murder. During his 1995 trial, Mr. Colburn received injections of Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug that can have a powerful sedative effect. A 1997 post-conviction assessment questioned Mr. Colburn’s competency to stand trial at that time, finding he had been “seriously sedated during the time of his trial.”
* On January 6, 2004, the State of Arkansas executed Charles Singleton, who was said to be “seriously deranged without treatment” and “arguably incompetent with treatment.” It was only during an episode of “drug-induced sanity” that the state scheduled his execution.
* On January 25, 2005 Troy Kunkle was executed in Texas although he suffered from schizophrenia and had a family history of mental illness.

The State of Texas ranks 46th out of the 50 U.S. states in terms of the amount of money spent per capita in the treatment of the mentally ill, including funds for mental health services in jails and prisons (News 8 Austin, April 21, 2003). It spends an average of $2.3 million to try a death penalty case.
(Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).

[Tom Joad]

101. Lieberman, HR Clinton, Bush, Rummy, are guilty of worse crimes than this

and i don't hear people calling for their blood.

They supported the murder of thousands. The dismemberment of thousands. The imprisonment of thousands.

Enron ripped off a whole state, and they ain't doin no time. Guess you have to be real connected to get off completely.

[Stand and Fight]

110. I've got to ask, why post to advocate more bloodshed?

Is the man a hero? Hell no, the man is no hero. He's the worst sort of human being -- a god damn murderer. He ought to spend the rest of his life caged and studied like an animal!

As a society we need to examine what causes such a beast. As a society we need to figure out how to get rid of the causes that make such a man. Killing him will ripple out and who knows who the next Tookie Williams will be? However, if we can get in his head, study his biology, and try to alleviate the causes, we will be that much better a society for it. Killing him will only cause us to take a step backward -- not forward.

This post seems to be only stirring up ill will and ugliness. It advocates even more bloodshed, and I know that this both sickens and disturbs me a great deal.

[K8-EEE]

126. Revenge Is One Of BushCo Death Cult's Prime Motivators.

I'm against putting him to death because it won't bring the people he killed back to life, and because he's in a position where he cannot hurt anybody else and in fact, many people say he has helped others from behind bars. I do not believe capital punishment ever deters a killer, any more than life imprisonment (or the risk of getting killed while commiting the crime) does; but I do believe he can deter people from following his path from jail. He can deter people from starting down the criminal life in the first place.

In BushCo culture, revenge is all, and "mercy" "redeption" and other Christian concepts are horrible weaknesses. In reality the WORST countries and societies on earth are the ones who sanction the Death Penalty. I'm sad our country has been so seduced by the death penalty, war, weapons, fire and brimstone religious BS, torture, the death penalty and all this other darkside CRAP.

[PatriotGames]

139. I think if someone did that to my family, I'd want him/her dead...

I also think some people that oppose the death penalty might change their minds if it happened to them.

I'm not taking sides on the innocent/guilty argument about tookie though. I don't know enough about the case.

[Stand and Fight]

152. It happened to me. I STRONGLY oppose the death penalty. n/t

[MadisonProgressive]

176. Exactly why they don't put the family members in the jury box.

[CatWoman]

148. why don't you give it a fucking rest

[MercutioATC]

161. I'm at least partially to blame.

I encouraged him to start the thread.

I think it's a valuable discussion, especially as a counterpoint to all of the "Save Tookie" threads here lately.

[CatWoman]

165. BULLSHIT

I've seen this guy all over GD promoting his "fry his ass" posts.

enough already!!

[MercutioATC]

168. The fact remains that this thread was created at MY encouragement.

I still think it's a well-stated case (whether you believe in the death penalty or not).

[Dances with Cats]

172. Then why the FUCK didn't you write it???

Obviously you can type.

[MercutioATC]

180. Umm, because it had already been written by somebody else?

That being the case, there wasn't much point in me writing it....

[bvar22]

153. The civilized countries of the World...

The civilized countries of the World have banned the Death Penalty.

You either believe in State Sponsored Murder,
or
You don't believe that the State has the power to Murder.

The pictures in the OP are COMPLETELY irrelevant.

It IS time for the USA to join the 20th Century.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

184. Read Post #142 if you would...

I'm honestly curious...do you consider somebody who used that image to illustrate the horror of what this war is doing to children in Iraq to be "beneath contempt"?

[MadisonProgressive]

224. There is a big difference that is flying over your head

One is posted for the purpose of denouncing murder and one is for the purpose of encouraging it.

[MercutioATC]

225. Both are posted to show the horrible results of somebody's choices.

The only "difference" is that you don't agree with the DP.

[KC_25]

235. If I am beneath contempt

then so be it...
It does nothing to change the fact that Tookie murdered these people, and I didn't...Just so all who scream about the families of the victims, these pictures were taken from a blog where the family members approved of them being posted so that folks would see the brutality of tookie. Does that unmuddy the water for anyone?

[bowens43]

170. I haven't heard anyone say he's hero.

It is it ok for the state to kill him? Hell no!!
It's not ok for the state to kill anyone.

Your post was in poor taste and completely unnecessary.

[KC_25]

236. lmao

You havent been reading the save tookie threads out there very closely then. It has been stated over and over again that he is indeed a hero.

[friesianrider]

182. I can honestly say I don't know what to believe here.

On one hand, I think people NEED to see the photos of those victims to understand the gravity of what happened. I'm vegetarian, and people never want to see photos of what goes on in slaughterhouses and in transport to slaughterhouses. You think you know what happens there, and what happens when a person kills another. But you don't know until you see the victim's faces and their bodies lying in blood, knowing, as was the case with the first photo, that the person suffered in unspeakable agony for several minutes before dying. I also believe that any form of punishment for a crime is, in essence, seeking revenge. So how can you argue where to draw the line? If I do support the death penalty, I am fairly certain I agree it should only be reserved for the most heinous of crimes. I absolutely think some people are just so heartless, brutal, and sick, they are pure evil on Earth.

On the other hand, I have a real problem with killing *anything*. Hell, I go out of my way to safely scoop up spiders or bugs in my house and relocate them outside. I don't like killing animals and I don't like killing people either. And, how much more satisfaction will the victim's family get from him being killed, or just rotting behind bars? Of course, inmates have a fairly good life in there nowadays, so maybe it would feel more like justice was served if the killer actually was being punished while in jail.

I pray to God I never have to serve on the jury of a death penalty case and have to balance these very issues. I just don't know which side is right here. I truly don't.

[VPStoltz]

187. There was once a young man who was a member of Nazi Youth.

Today he is the Pope!!!!! People can't change?!?!?

[MercutioATC]

190. He's changed?

...sorry, couldn't resist...

[dutchdemocrat]

217. The Death Penalty Violates the Rights of Foreign Nationals

The Death Penalty Violates the Rights of Foreign Nationals

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/factsheets/foreign_nationals.html

Twenty-one foreign nationals have been executed in the United States since 1988. Virtually none had been informed, upon arrest, of their right to communicate with their consular representatives. In 16 of these cases, the consular notification issue was raised on appeal and dismissed, allowing the execution to proceed.

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, Article 36

“…if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall…inform the consular post of the sending State if…a national of that State is arrested or committed to prison…. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without delay of his rights under this sub-paragraph.” Ratified by the U.S. in 1969.

Among other crucial functions, consular assistance serves to protect a defendant’s legal right to a fair trial, including the right to prepare an adequate defense, to understand the nature of the charges, to have the assistance of an interpreter, and the right not to be compelled to confess or to testify against oneself.

Around 120 foreign nationals are currently on death row in 17 jurisdictions. Almost half of all foreign nationals on death row are from Mexico, which has been abolitionist for ordinary crimes since 1937.

International Court Rulings

In October 1999, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights found that the executions of foreign nationals who were not informed of their consular rights constitute an “arbitrary deprivation of life,” requiring a remedy under international law.

In March 2004, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that the United States had violated the rights of 51 Mexicans on death row and ordered their cases to be reviewed. In Spring 2005, President George W. Bush signed a memorandum to the U.S. Attorney General affirming that the United States would comply with the binding decision of the ICJ and announced that state courts would be required to review and reconsider the effect of violations of the VCCR in the cases of those Mexican nationals who were subsequently sentenced to death.

Recent Cases

* On June 18, 1997, the State of Texas executed Irineo Tristan Montoya, a Mexican national who, without the presence of an attorney, had signed a confession written in English, a language he neither read, spoke, nor understood. Texas authorities, fully aware of Montoya’s nationality, had failed to inform him of his right to consular access.
* In February 1999, Karl and Walter LaGrand, two brothers from Germany, were executed in Arizona. Local authorities, aware of their nationality, had failed to inform the brothers of their right to consular access. Germany brought suit against the USA in the International Court of Justice (ICJ). In June 2001, the ICJ ruled that U.S. violated the Vienna Convention and handed down a ruling in favor of Germany.

[FyurFly]

191. Tookie will die...

Rest assured I won't cry!

[B Calm]

192. I probably wouldn't support the death penality, if life in prison,

actually meant they would spend the rest of their life behind bars. But, life now days means that the killer will be paroled after ten to twenty years.

[lvx35]

193. I see my own destiny in those pics

those faces are yours and mine. We will be on that slab, and the days between now and then are numbered. This fact, this one fact, is the ONLY thing in life anybody can rely on, the fact that we will die. So how do you forgive the killer? Was what he did so terrible that the state could never sink to committing it? If so, how can he be considered human?
The answer to the question of how to forgive the killer, is to kill him. Its the greatest act of compassion that the state can deliver, and therefore it is the morally superior decision.

[dxstone]

200. WELL-said, lvx!!!

You take the prize, hands-down; the most truly rational post on this and any other thread I've read on this matter...

WHATEVER got Tookie to the horribly subhuman level that made him capable of committing his crimes is irrelevant to the present discussion; it was the totality of his life and circumstances, the strong and subtle pressures of a million invisible elements, and a major question of timing in the many small experiences that made up his larger view and understanding of life and his place within it... and there but for the grace of god or good fortune or whatever could go ANY ONE OF US...
But if it was ME, if I had somehow snapped and fell to such a lowly state of subhumanity as this, I would KNOW within my own heart that I had become a human MONSTER, and QUITE IRREDEEMABLE... and I would also know that the GREATEST mercy you could show me and ALL the victims' families would be to PUT ME TO DEATH.
For the latter, closure... for me, the end to a story that had become much too dark and horrible to continue living within...

The fact that Tookie wishes so badly to live on in itself seems pretty sad--but how our base and primitive instincts hold us to this earth; again, it would seem to me a great mercy for others to force an override on those perfectly understandable instincts...
Some may accuse me of being callous in this regard, but I'm talking about the very definition of mercy here... imho.

And I know I'm really askin' for it here, but I've gotta add two other things:

1: It seems to me the argument that the death penalty has no deterrence value is facetious in the extreme...
Because NO MURDERER who has been put to death has EVER returned to commit another crime; it just doesn't happen, folks...
To say there's NO deterrence in that is simply LUDICROUS.



2: Saying that ALL killing is equivalent to murder is as ridiculous as saying that all sex is equivalent to rape, or that rape is just another form of sex, simply a novel way of expressing your love and desire to someone who doesn't really want to know you at all.

I DO think that we should strive for a world where stuff like this is ever-rarer and more shocking and alien to our ever-more-refined sensibilities... and I agree with those who've weighed in with the opinion that instead of executing them, we should at least TRY to study these people and approach some understanding of just how such strange and dangerous mutations occur within ALL societies, since time immemorial...

But if they kill Tookie, I'm not likely to get too over-emotional about it...
There are PLENTY of good, decent, hopeful,, well-meaning, loving, gentle, non-violent people out there who are ALSO in need of compassion and caring, people who are FAR more deserving of my time and attention; and I have an ABSOLUTE right to reserve my compassion and caring and any sympathy, empathy or actual help I might be able to offer to those I feel might actually benefit from it, rather than worrying about a terribly tragic man who, in a very real way, killed HIMSELF, murdered everything worth a damn about himself and his own future, as well as those four victims, so many years ago.

Then again, for those who don't agree and hear these words as the rantings of a bona fide lunatic, consider the source; I'm the one behind President Evil Online

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. I'll ask again, what has he done after the fact?

Oh yes his books have KEPT many kids, some thinks upwards of a thousand, away from the gangs

But no matter

By the way, them are NOT the most gruesome photos I have ever seen... or the most gruesome scene either.... nice touch, they left the oral canula in... by the way, I hope you enjoy the evidence photos from cop murders to occur, and that you WILL attend those funerals and tell teh families, but tookie is dead.

[Maddy McCall]

197. You have done tremendous disservice to the family members of...

the victims by posting those photos. If that were my relative in those photos, I would absolutely hate you for using his or her photo to justify your stance.

Whether or not I agree with your post, I think you posting the photos is a cheap, gut-level emotional appeal that is no different from the pro-lifers carrying photos of a chopped up fetus, just to justify their stance.

The photos were completely unnecessary. Your points should have been able to stand on their own. IF anything, you've persuaded me AWAY from your point, instead of toward it.

[Thtwudbeme]

201. Right on

and I want to add something here:

As a former paramedic who has been to murder scenes, these pictures are VERY sanitized. I think anyone who thinks they are somehow "tougher" for seeing them is a delusional pansie.

You want to look at real dead bodies, and maybe learn how to show respect for the privacy of victims? Become a cop, paramedic, or firefighter.

But, I suppose it's easier to sit at the computer chair and play a gross game of "let's pretend."

Sickening.

[fortyfeetunder]

198. Did you get permission from the families to post this?

I don't know the source of these pictures. This wasn't necessary to the debate.

I question your personal ethics unless you are representing the state of California with the wherewithal to post such pictures as admissable evidence.

[malaise]

202. Where I live the state cannot execute a prisoner if

he has been on death row for five years or more - that is viewed as cruel and inhumane punishment. Indeed the death penalty has been all but banned here since noone has been executed since the 70s.
I know there are evil people on this planet but I will never support the death penalty. I often wonder why the US pretends to be oh so worldly when that country has the most barbarian laws among developed countries and more than a few developing countries. I see this death penalty business as old testament law gone mad. I've never seen a nation with more contradictions - support the unborn and the brain dead but slaughter the living. Guess that's why you have the most shrinks.

[depakid]

204. Typically sick Americans

Who have little education and can't see beyond their own disgusting thoughts.

Nice job of showing all of us just what a sick and twisted set of people we've all become.

I'm glad you posted this- it should be a reminder to everyone of why the country is now full of fundamentalists and every institution we once had is now so far right (and sick and twisted) that a normal person wouldn't recognize it anymore.

America got what it deserved.

[undergroundpanther]

205. I am pro DP

Because some criminals are dangerous to be trusted with their own lives..they cannot feel remorse or shame so as a society we have no way to teach them how to empathize with victims with people enough to NOT harm..
The Death penalty is not so much a deterrent for murderers it is a way to STOP a murderer or criminal from continuing to harm.
Criminals escape jail,they kill again.,they call up gang buddies and kill..rape whatever.You speak of DP as "vengeance" maybe there is a component of vengeance in it.Trauma scars victims for life.

But what did the victims in those photos do to deserve death at the hands of tookie?
Do you save tookie fans not care about THE people he killed? For they are the REAL innocents ..Those KIDS,they murdered NO ONE..No one helped THEM.
No one was there to keep tookie from ruining them for his own bullshit.
Tookie is scum. Justice if done right means he is DEAD.

What did these victims of tookie ,and other countless victims do to deserve the tortures they faced at the hands of rapists pedophiles gang killers who do not care and seek thrills by destroying others??
Sometimes you need to keep IMPERVIOUS social boundaries and reinforce them harshly about how people conduct themselves around others,if they harm others with their conduct, If a person violates boundaries in a personal relationship there is no obligation to trust him or care about his well being anymore.As it is with a bad relationship with individuals one has to go away so peace can be restored this is why we have boundaries.. likewise when it is a bad individual with a society society has boundaries and if jail is not isolating enough the violator must be bound more effectively like in a grave where he can harm no one.. .

Some people,like tookie are not to be trusted with their own life they have proven they are untrustable.And since he is unrepentant untrustworthy and dangerous and has connections still with the crips and protects his homies he is a hypocrite liar. He made his choice and lost the game he was playing.If you do the crime,and if you are unwilling to care and change yourself, you must pay the price of your conduct choices whatever it is the 12 person jury UNANIMOUSLY decided,WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT ,many judges, many courts,in appeal after appeal and finally the Governor decides..

The world is better without tookie and sociopaths pigs just like him.
I don't waste my time caring about assholes who use my compassion,trust and liberal ideals to go kill or rape again and use my suspicion of the state to escape justice and the judgments given by trial after trial.

[dutchdemocrat]

210. Death Penalty Defies International Human Rights Standards

Death Penalty Defies International Human Rights Standards

The death penalty is a violation of human rights. More than half the countries in the world have now abolished the death penalty in law or practice.

1948
The United Nations adopted without dissent the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). The Declaration proclaims the right of every individual to protection from deprivation of life. It states that no one shall be subjected to cruel or degrading punishment. The death penalty violates both of these fundamental rights.

1966
The UN adopted the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 6 of the Covenant states that "no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life" and that the death penalty shall not be imposed on pregnant women or on those who were under the age of 18 at the time of the crime. Article 7 states that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

1984
The UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) adopted "Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty." In the same year, the Safeguards were endorsed by consensus by the UN General Assembly. The Safeguards state that no one under the age of 18 at the time of the crime shall be put to death and that anyone sentenced to death has the right to appeal and to petition for pardon or commutation of sentence.

1989
The UN General Assembly adopted the Second Optional Protocol to the ICCPR. Its goal is the abolition of the death penalty.

1990
The Protocol to the American Convention on Human Rights was adopted by the General Assembly of the Organization of American States. It provides for the total abolition of the death penalty, allowing for its use in wartime only.

1993
The International War Crimes Tribunal stated that the death penalty is not an option, even for the most heinous crimes known to civilization, including genocide.

1995
The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child came into force. Article 37(a) prohibits the death penalty for persons under the age of 18 at the time of the crime.

1999
The UN Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR) passed a resolution calling on all states that still maintain the death penalty to progressively restrict the number of offenses for which it may be imposed with a view to completely abolishing it.

2001
The UNCHR approved a European Union motion asking countries to halt executions as a step toward the eventual abolition of the death penalty

2002
The Council of Europe's Committee of Ministers adopted Protocol 13 to the European Convention on Human Rights. Protocol 13 is the first legally binding international treaty to abolish the death penalty in all circumstances with no exceptions. When it was opened for signature in May 2002, 36 countries signed it.

[ulysses]

208. and yet, somehow,

your posting of these images (I love how anti-DP folks are the ones who get called "emotional") doesn't change the fact that the DP is barbaric and has no place in a civilized society.

I don't consider Tookie Williams a hero. I don't have to. The death penalty is wrong.

[dutchdemocrat]

218. Killing possibility: The imminent execution of Stanley Williams

Killing possibility: The imminent execution of Stanley Williams in California

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/document.do?id=ENGUSA20051117001

If it is impossible to construct a system capable of accommodating all evidence relevant to a man's entitlement to be spared death -- no matter when that evidence is disclosed -- then it is the system, not the life of the man sentenced to death, that should be dispatched.
-- United States Supreme Court Justice T Marshall, 19901


Williams's good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion.
-- Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge Hug, 20042

On 13 December 2005, the State of California plans to execute Stanley Tookie Williams, who has been on San Quentin prison's death row for well over two decades. Williams founded the notorious "Crips" street gang in Los Angeles, California, in the early 1970s. He was sent to death row in 1981 for two separate robbery murders. In one robbery a convenience store clerk was killed and in the other the owners of a motel were killed (father, mother, and grown daughter). Stanley Williams has always asserted his innocence of these specific crimes. Indeed, the United States federal appeals court described his convictions as based upon "circumstantial evidence and the testimony of witnesses with less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie in order to obtain leniency from the state."3 Amnesty International is not in a position to comment on Stanley Williams' claim of innocence, but would note the ever-growing evidence of wrongful convictions in capital cases in the USA, and that lingering doubt about guilt is itself a solid ground for commutation of a death sentence.4

Whether or not Stanley Williams committed the crimes for which he is scheduled to die, by his own admission he participated in violent behaviour before he was sent to prison and during his first seven years there. Then, during six years in solitary confinement, he underwent through focused education what he describes as a "redemptive transition." Since his release from solitary confinement in 1994, he has exhibited exemplary behaviour in prison. In 1997, Williams issued the first of his "apologies", renouncing gang life:

Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men. . .

oday I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did. . . . I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others. I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.5

Stanley Williams has "worked toward solutions" through his public apologies, by writing an award-winning series of children's books that warn about the perils of the gang lifestyle, by writing another book for older children that demythologizes the prison experience (undercutting a myth that prison is some kind of rite of passage for young African-American males), by writing his own autobiography which renounces gang violence, by producing a peace protocol to help street gangs turn to peaceful behaviour, and by founding an internet-based peer mentoring and anti-gang program involving children in the United States, Switzerland, and South Africa.6 His work played a prominent role in gang truces in Los Angeles and Newark, New Jersey. In 2004, after watching a film that depicts Williams' life (Redemption, in which the actor Jamie Foxx plays Stanley Williams), over 300 members of the Crips and Bloods gangs in Newark, New Jersey, signed a peace treaty, agreeing to end gang violence.7 Inspired by Williams' work against violence, a member of the Swiss Parliament has nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. This year, President George W. Bush's Council on Service and Civic Participation bestowed upon Stanley Williams the "Presidential Call to Service Award." The letter congratulating Williams for the award praised him for having contributed to the "build a culture of citizenship, service, and responsibility in America."8 This special award "honors those who have provided more than 4,000 hours of service over the course of their lifetime."9

Several death sentences in the United States have been commuted after the authorities were presented with evidence of rehabilitation. In 1988, the Governor of Montana commuted the death sentence of David Keith after his attorneys argued that he had changed since his arrest four years earlier and that his life "might be put to good use if he allowed to live and help counsel others with alcohol and drug problems."10 In 1990, the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles commuted the death sentence of William Neal Moore, influenced by the fact that Moore had been a "model prisoner during his 16 years on death row" and had been "not merely an example of the ability of the Georgia prison system to rehabilitate criminals but an agent of the rehabilitation of others."11 In 1997, the Governor of Virginia commuted William Saunders' death sentence following the recommendation of his trial judge that he was "not the same violent man sentenced to death seven years ago."12 In 2004, the Georgia board commuted the death sentence of Willie Hall, remarking about his exemplary prison record.13

The record of governors, however, has been inconsistent, injecting further arbitrariness into the application of the death penalty in the USA. In 1990, the Governor of Virginia failed to exercise his discretion to save the life of Wilbert Evans, whom death row prison guards had credited with saving their own lives. "According to uncontested affidavits presented by guards taken hostage during a death row uprising, Evans took decisive steps to calm the riot, saving the lives of several hostages, and preventing the rape of one of the nurses."14 Lawyers for Evans asserted that his execution would violate the prohibition on "cruel and unusual" punishments under the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution, on the grounds that the guards' affidavits provided overwhelming evidence that he was rehabilitated and posed no risk to others. The State of Virginia did not disagree with the evidence, arguing only that allowing Evans to raise his complaint would "unleash an endless stream of litigation" tying up the courts with claims made by other inmates.15 When the US Supreme Court refused to stay Evans' execution, Justice Thurgood Marshall protested that the "indifferent shrug of the shoulders with which the Court" met Evans' claim revealed "the utter bankruptcy of its notion that a system of capital punishment coexist with the Eighth Amendment."16 Implicit in his dissent was the argument that the Eighth Amendment requires that some means be provided to "accommodat all evidence relevant to a man's entitlement to be spared death -- no matter when that evidence is disclosed."17 In 1998, lawyers for Texas death row inmate Karla Faye Tucker raised the same issue, arguing that her execution would be unconstitutional due to the compelling evidence of her transformation from "pick axe killer" to spiritual counselor for scores of people. Then-Governor George W. Bush recognized her extraordinary rehabilitation, but announced that he felt compelled to defer all decisions about the human heart to a "Higher Authority."18 Texas Governor Rick Perry subsequently ignored similarly strong evidence of rehabilitation presented in the clemency petitions of Napoleon Beazley and James Allridge, who were inmates so trusted by the Texas prison authorities that they were given a kind of "trustee" status on death row.19

As well as the impossibility of consistent application, another reason behind the global trend towards abolition is the death penalty's absolute denial of the possibility of rehabilitation. In the words of the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace: "In executing someone, we rule out irrevocably any possibility, however remote, of subsequent repentance, conversion, or reconciliation; we exclude finally the possibility of moral development and of the growth of conscience."20 In the Inter-American system, it is recognized that "the application of the death penalty has irrevocable consequences . . . preclud the possibility of changing or rehabilitating those convicted."21 In the South African Constitutional Court's landmark decision in June 1995 recognizing that the death penalty violated fundamental human rights and threatened to "make a mockery of the civilized, humane and compassionate society to which the nation aspires"22 , Justice Mahomed, who was to become his country's first black Chief Justice, put it this way:

The death sentence must, in some measure, manifest a philosophy of indefensible despair in its execution, accepting as it must do, that the offender it seeks to punish is so beyond the pale of humanity as to permit of no rehabilitation, no reform, no repentance, no inherent spectre of hope or spirituality . . . . he finality of the death penalty allows for none of these redeeming possibilities. It annihilates the potential for their emergence.23

In the decade since South Africa abolished the death penalty, countries have rejected judicial killing at the rate of three per year.24 Today, some 121 states are abolitionist in law or practice compared to the 75 which retain the death penalty, a handful of which account for the vast majority of the world's executions.25 As well as reflecting a growing recognition that the death penalty violates the right to life and the prohibition on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment enshrined in international law, the abolitionist trend is also a rejection of the notion that capital punishment can be considered compatible with "human dignity," which should surely be defined as including the potential in all persons for change and growth.26 South Africa's Justice Mahomed wrote in 1995 that the death penalty "cannot accomplish its objective without invading in a very deep and distressing way, the guarantee of human dignity... The invasion of dignity is inherent. He is effectively told: 'You are beyond the pale of humanity. You are not fit to live among humankind. You are not entitled to life. You are not entitled to dignity. You are not human. We will therefore annihilate your life'." Justice Mahomed added:

It is not necessarily only the dignity of the person to be executed which is invaded. Very arguably the dignity of all of us, in a caring civilization, must be compromised, by the act of repeating systematically and deliberately, albeit for a wholly different objective, what we find to be so repugnant in the conduct of the offender in the first place.27

Stanley Williams has repudiated his past violent conduct and continues to make efforts toward changing the violent conduct of others. It now remains to be seen whether the state will favour a policy of hope or annihilation.

International human rights instruments repeatedly stress that, if a state retains the death penalty, it must provide procedures for meaningful clemency review. These include the ICCPR (Article 6.1 and 6.4); the Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty (Safeguard 7); and the American Convention on Human Rights (Article 4.1 and 4.6). As a party to the ICCPR, the USA must therefore provide the means for appropriate consideration of the evidence of Stanley Williams' "good works and accomplishments since incarceration" as grounds for reduction of sentence. Commutation of Williams' death sentence would be consistent with the Covenant's additional requirements that all prisoners be treated with respect for the "inherent dignity of the human person" (ICCPR, article 10.1) and that a goal of the penitentiary system be "reformation and social rehabilitation" (ICCPR article 10.3).

Stanley Williams' long incarceration on California's death row itself raises serious legal and moral issues.28 However it unquestionably has allowed him to have a greater opportunity to realize his own potential for rehabilitation and reform than most other death row inmates receive. By all accounts, he has taken advantage of this opportunity and has made a compelling case for his own moral transformation, including absolute repudiation of his past acts. So much so that the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit noted the Nobel Peace Prize nomination "for his laudable efforts opposing gang violence from his prison cell", and found that his "good works and accomplishments may make him a worthy candidate" for an act of executive clemency.

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger should recognize the extraordinary facts in Stanley Williams' case and commute his death sentence. The alternative would be to send the message to gang members around the world that "there are no second chances in the eyes of justice . . . that in some cases, killing is right."29

1Evans v. Muncy, 498 U.S. 927, 931 (1990), Marshall J., dissenting from denial of stay of execution.
2Williams v. Woodford, 384 F.3d 567, 628 (9th Cir. 2004).
3Williams v. Woodford, 384 F.3d 567, 624 (9th Cir. 2004).
4Safeguard 4 of the UN Safeguards guaranteeing protection of the rights of those facing the death penalty states: "Capital punishment may be imposed only when the guilt of the person charged is based upon clear and convincing evidence leaving no room for an alternative explanation of the facts." Amnesty International has also noted with concern the possible impact of race in Stanley Williams' case, namely that of an African American man sentenced to death by an all-white jury. See USA: Death by discrimination -- the continuing role of race in capital cases, AI Index: AMR 51/046/2003, April 2003, page 55.
5Available at www.tookie.com/apology.html.
6See Venise Wagner, Practicing peace in a North Richmond enclave, trouble kids learn not to fight. San Francisco Chronicle, 11 December 2000.
7Peace breaks out on the streets as gangs shun colour of blood. The Times (London), 1 June 2004.
8See the clemency petition at www.cm-p.com/pdf/executiveclemency.pdf
9See www.usafreedomcorps.gov/content/council/pvsa/index.asp.
10U.P.I. Regional News Release, December 23, 1988.
11Editorial, When Mercy Becomes Mandatory, Atlanta Constitution, 16 August 1990, at A10.
12Death Sentence Commuted, Washington Post, 16 September 1997, at B03.
13Amnesty International, Urgent Action, USA (Texas): Death Penalty, James Vernon Allridge, AMR 51/125/2004, 12 August 2004.
14Evans v. Muncy, 498 U.S. 927, 928-29 (1990) (Marshall, J., dissenting from denial of stay).
15Id. at 930.
16Id. at 931.
17Id.
18Sister Helen Prejean, Death in Texas, New York Review of Books, Vol. 52, No. 1, 13 January 2005.
19See Allridge Urgent Action, supra, AMR 51/125/2004 ("James is deserving of clemency because he is the perfect role model inmate. I think if James was put back in population he would continue to be a good role model prisoner.") (Texas prison guard); Amnesty International, United States of America: Too Young to Vote, Old Enough to be Executed, AMR 51/105/2001, 31 July 2001 ("The jury's finding of future dangerousness has also been called into question by the fact that Napoleon Beazley has been a model prisoner. Before death row was recently moved from Ellis Unit in Huntsville to its new location in Terrell Unit, Livingston, and all prisoners were confined to their cells for 23 hours a day, Napoleon Beazley was one of a few prisoners assigned to jobs within the prison. At the trial the state's experts had testified that Beazley would pose a threat of violence in prison. It seems they were wrong.")
20Quoted in Amnesty International, When the State Kills...The death penalty v. human rights. AI Index: ACT 51/07/89 (1989), page 9.
21Additional Protocol to the American Convention on Human Rights to Abolish the Death Penalty.
22Didcott, J., State v. Makwanyane, 1995 (3) SALR 391 (CC).
23Mahomed, J., State v. Makwanyane, 1995 (3) SALR 391 (CC).
24Amnesty International, Abolitionist and Retentionist Countries, www.amnesty.org.
25Id.
26Shigemitsu Dando, Toward the Abolition of the Death Penalty, 72 Ind. L. J. 7, 16, 19 (1996) ("f every human being is able to develop his or her personality at any stage of life, the death penalty -- which, by nature, deprives one of such chance of rehabilitation -- is deemed inconsistent with human dignity.").
27Mahomed, J., State v. Makwanyane, 1995 (3) SALR 391 (CC).
28See Pratt and Morgan v. Jamaica (Nos 210/1986 and 225/1987), UN Doc. A/44/40 222 (1989); Soering v. United Kingdom, 161 Euro Ct. H.R. (Ser A) para. 81 (1989) (holding that lengthy incarceration on death row is inhuman punishment).
29Last Statement of Napoleon Beazley; Amnesty International, United States of America: The Human Dignity that Texas Refuses to Recognize, AMR 51/087/2002, 31 May 2002.

[LynneSin]

220. Geez, get a grip on the idea! We're not talking of letting him out of jail

Geez, even Matthew Shepard's father asked that the death penalty not be given to one of the boys who beat his son to death and tied him to a fence and let Matthew to die on a cold Wyoming winter night. And this case had hate crimes involved because Matthew was gay.

All we're asking is to spare Tookie his life - and commute his sentence to life in jail. Hell everyone on death row should be commuted to life in prison. It serves no purpose killing these people other than turning us into the same people they are - murderers.

Gandhi once said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Please stop being so blind when you post these threads. Tookie deserves life in prison, but Tookie like everyone else on death row does not deserve to die. Death Penalty is a barbaric practice that is not practiced in civilized industrialized nations except the United States. By using death penalty as a method of punishment, our country is not better than the terrorist rogue nations that we claim we are at war against.

[B Calm]

222. Life in Prison = 10 to 20 years ( then released into a neighborhood

near you )...

[noahmijo]

223. Would executing Tookie bring those poor victims back?

I would support the DP if killing the criminal would bring the victims back to life but it doesn't. The guy is in jail, he should stay in jail and keep doing what he's doing. At this point he is worth more alive than dead as he is a living symbol to would be gang bangers who end up in jail but have a chance of getting out, especially after someone like Tookie scares the living shit outta them with what's going to happen to them eventually if they do not change their ways.

Revenge is a lazy form of grief, you can play on mine or our emotions all you want with those graphic pictures, only the most weak minded is stimulated to the point of black and white by imagery. I can show you gruesome pics of what our tax dollars have paid for in Iraq and given the fact that this nation is not united to stop it, technically we are just as guilty even if we are not on the side pushing it.

[KC_25]

237. No, and I think that I said that in the original post

I disagree that he is worth more alive than, dead. I think that his redemption is a clever ruse that has been picked up by politcos left and right.
I have stated that if he were to admit his crimes, and ask for forgiveness, then I would say let him live, he hasn't, and I somehow doubt that he will.I am not a Christian, but for all those that are throwing christ at me, I thought that all you had to do for forgiveness was ask, so that is all he needs to do, but hasn't.

Someone asked, what if he is innocent? I do believe that he is. I do not believe his reemption is real.

Everyone states that I am calling for him to be murdered... Well, if the decision that was handed down by a jury of 12 people, and upheld through 25 years of due process, legal and public maneuvers, then so be it. But I have to ask, who called for the murder of the 4 that tookie gunned down?

People ask what the death penalty accomplishes? It serves the verdict that was handed down. No more, no less. It is certainly final, and those of you that are Anti-DP, then by all means, you have a right to your opinion. It does not, however, make mine or anyone else's opinion less valid.

Others have stated that this post is nothing more than an disgusting attempt to create an emotional response. Maybe, but is no more an attempt to raise an emotional response than all the save tookie threads, where cited is all kinds of half truths and whole lies.

as I read more, I will post more

[Puglover]

228. Isn't this supposed to be a progressive board?

It is beyond me how one can label themselves a progressive and advocate state sponsered murder. How many times has it been fucking proven how racially bias capital punishment is? Life w/o parole, (cheaper the the DP) is as harsh if not harsher then death. Just my opinion.
I hope the mods will delete any repeat posts from the OP.
His point has been made.

[sproutster]

229. I bet their are gruesome deaths and murders that could be posted

And the death penalty is not in question. LWOP. Dead is dead. How many do you think he may have prevented?

[SaveElmer]

230. Your post implies the death penalty is a legitimately moral option...

It is not...it is simply committing another murder. Makes no difference that it was committed by the state, and it makes no difference what the person being executed did.

Society needs to be protected from people who commit these crimes...Tookie Williams is locked up and will never be released. Society is protected.

[KC_25]

239. Tookie has planned to escape

before what is to prevent him from trying now? I am just asking, because there are ways to ensure that he doesnt escape, and that he does live, but I am sure that those methods are inhumane. And before you say that he couldn't/wouldn't escape have you noticed the rash of priosners from thieves to murderers that have escaped...

Again, I think it is pertinent in this example because he penned a detailed plan on how to escape at least once before.

[SaveElmer]

242. Penning a plan....

And actually being able to escape from a maximum decurity death row facility is another. Of all the men on death row since it was reinstated by the supreme court how many have escaped...and out of that many, how many have killed again. I believe the answer to the first question is very few, and the answer to the second is none.

How many people have been excuted that it later turned out were innocent. No one knows, but everyone has acknowledged it has occurred. Therefore I would say it is more likely that an innocent been will be executed than a guilty one will somehow escape and kill again!

[KC_25]

243. well, thats the point isnt it..

IF he is moved to LWOP he will not be on death row, and those prisoners that escaped, more than one escaped from maximum security...
I think your question needs to be changed how many have escaped from prison and killed again, because if there is no death penalty, there is no death row. I can not say that I know the answer to that question.

[SaveElmer]

245. Escape from maximum security facilities...

Is extremely rare...and I cannot recall a killing occurring from one. This is a straw man...murder is not justifiable under any circumstance...and the notion that executions need to go forward for reasons of self defense just is not credible. These men will be securely locked away for life!!!

[ShaneGR]

233. Stanley Tookie is a violent murderer who deserves to rot in prison

He's no hero.

[lynne]

234. Is this thread about Tookie or about the death penalty?

- It's gotten a bit confusing but they are not one in the same. If you're against the death penalty in general then work to get rid of it.

It's too late for that in Tookie's case. He was convicted by a jury - has been through the appeals - and is to receive the death penalty. Where in the law does it say that the death penalty may be removed for someone who has reportedly "changed" or has written a book or has educated themself or has become a minister or another dozen of things that someone could do while in prison?

It doesn't. If it did, every brutal killer would be penning children's books and memorizing the Bible while setting up their hits just in case they got caught. Nothing better than to have a kids book about half written to show to the jury, huh??? :eyes:

[Czolgosz]

240. Here are photos which show PREMEDITATION as an element of murder!

The photos posted in the OP only show evidence of violent murders. These photos show deliberately premeditated murder planned as revenge.

If murder is not the solution for murder.

[KC_25]

244. So carrying out the law

and the verdict that the jury sentenced the man to, and his murdering four people for about 600 bucks drug money is the same thing....Ok, thanks...

[Czolgosz]

248. No its' not the same thing. His murders were likely drug-inspired and not

premeditated. If it goes forward, Williams's killing by the state of California will have been a carefully considered act of revenge.

Hey, in a thread the other day, you promised to explain where you obtained the information you were spouting about the DA's public filings concerning his exercise of peremptory jury strikes.

May I presume from your hasty retreat from that promise that you were just making that stuff up?

If so, it's good that you have found an issue that you feel so strongly about that you'll make stuff up. That kind of self-knowledge doesn't come cheap and it's invaluable.

[KC_25]

249. I did

You got yours from the Abrams report and tookies lawyers, and I got mine form the same interview and the DA's report and said as much..
I didnt claim anything, I asked a question.

Tookie's supporters make up all kinds of stuff up

How many strikes do lawyers have to remove jurors? How mnay white people did the defense remove? Hell, for that matter, how many black people did the defense strike from the jury?

Moreover, I answered the same thing there, nearly, and you never responded

[Evergreen Emerald]

241. In this frenzy of empathy for Mr. Williams, I believe it was appropriate

...to remind people of what is really going on here. The focus is on Williams. The focus should be on the victims and their families. They do not have the opportunity to change and grow and "redeem" themselves. They did not have the compassionate people here on DU protecting those innocent victims from the horrific violent deaths they were forced to endure because of Mr. William's selfish behavior.

These threads are so disrespectful to the victims and their families who have all but been forgotten by DU. I wonder why people are so angry about posting the pictures? The truth of what he did to innocent people is ugly. And sitting behind a computer arguing for his humanity with a sanitized view of his actions is easier than looking at the facts of his brutality. And it is easier to support a man who would do such cruelty when you can avoid looking at the cruelty. It was real. It was ugly. Confronted with the reality that you support a man who could do this to those innocent people perhaps is causing you to lash out at the poster.

I do not know how I feel about the dp. I am torn mostly because of the current administration who I believe is evil and untrustworthy and would kill me if they could legally get away with it (for my liberal beliefs). I cannot, however, give ANY support to Mr. Williams because to do so would be such a betrayal to the victims and their families.

I refuse to jump on the bandwagon. The humanity of the victims--the reality of their violent deaths should be shouted from the rooftops. Cover your ears and eyes if you must. But, don't be angry at the poster because you are forced to see the truth.

[Czolgosz]

247. The focus should be on the murder scheduled to occur; not those long ago.

No one suggests that Williams should go free. He's been convicted and he's been given the maximum penalty and his appeals have come and gone. The guilt for those crimes from 25 years ago has been assigned. The only issue is whether Williams should be executed or not. That death has not occurred yet and so the guilt for that killing has not yet been assigned. There is no "truth" in the suggestion that we must stoop to become killers to address the crimes of a killer. This the exact sort of "facts inapplicable" reasoning that prevails in Washington, DC. This type of reasoning is a symptom of an incoherent thought process, regardless if you see the flawed reasoning from * or from someone here.

If you favor killing killers, don't put the blame on the original victims of the first murders or their families. It is the state of California who would kill Williams; not his victims or his victims' families. Neither the victims nor their families sentenced Williams to death; that was an act of the public prosecutor, the public as represented by the jury, and the public's court system's judges. That is an act of the citizens of California -- don't shirk that responsibility onto the victims' shoulders or the shoulders of their families.

[Skinner]

250. Locking

Because I don't think much good can come from keeping this open.