Corporate Personhood

[Occulus]

This issue is a quiet yet important one; it is my belief that corporate personhood should be revoked- completely- and that our country would be much better of for it.

If the only things certain to We, the People, are death and taxes, that's not true of corporations. They can move offshore (although some work is being done to keep them from doing so) to avoid their lawful taxes and they "live" forever, and can only go out of business or merge. In theory, a corporation can "live" much longer than any other person because, if well-maintained, they exist forever.

These clearly nonpersons are, for some strange reason, regarded as persons under the law, with equal rights to you and I. However, these legal persons do not have to register for the draft. They cannot vote. They never have to worry about traffic tickets, or crimes like murder, or rape; they need not concern themselves with being victims of violence or accidents. They never, ever have to worry about disease, or hunger, or organ failure. In other words, corporations, under the law, have access to all of the rights that come with being an American citizen- such as copyright- and not concern themselves with any of the responsibilities that come with being a citizen of this country.

Should corporations have any rights under the law?

At all?

[Tigermoose]

1. They should have to meet more rigourous qualifications

to be considered American.

Such as a high percentage of U.S. workers, a certain tax burden, avoidance of tariffs that need to be slapped into place and soon, etc.

[Aries]

2. "sparingly conferred and strictly construed"

Sounds like you belong (or should) to POCLAD:

Corporations for the Seventh Generation: Changing the Ground Rules, Part 1 by Jane Anne Morris

The people who founded this nation didn't fight a war so that they could have a couple of "citizen representatives" sitting in on meetings of the British East India Company. They carried out a revolution in order to be free of oppression: corporate, governmental, or otherwise; and to replace it with democratic self-government.

It seems that things have slipped a little. Today, as soon as any group or movement puts together a coherent critique of the role of corporations, tongues start clucking. Politicians, mainstream reformers, degreed experts, and media commentators fall all over each other in an effort to dismiss such clear, practical, focused thinking as mere "conspiracy theories" cooked up by unbalanced "crackpots."

They forget that 17th century political philosopher Thomas Hobbes called corporations "worms in the body politic."2 Adam Smith condemned them for their effect in curtailing "natural liberty."3 And most of the so called "founding fathers" of this nation shared an opinion of corporations that today would earn them the label "lunatic fringe" from the same mainstream tongue cluckers.4

Those who won independence from England hated corporations as much as they hated the King. For it was through state-chartered corporations that the British government carried out some of its most pernicious oppression. Governments extending their power by means of corporations, and corporations themselves taking on the powers of government, are not new problems.

Because they were well aware of the track record of government-chartered corporations, and because they guarded their freedom so jealously, citizens of the newly independent United States of America chartered only a handful of corporations in the several decades after independence.5

On those few occasions when states did charter a corporation, "the powers which the corporation might exercise in carrying out its purposes were sparingly conferred and strictly construed."6

[GreenArrow]

3. Answer to question...

No. None. At all.

[Occulus]

5. The case

that first "allowed" it was San Diego County v. Souther Pacific Railroad, I believe. Note that the case centered around a tax issue, and the judge specifically did not address the larger issue of corporations being persons under the law. Nonetheless, the man who wrote the summary of the judge's decision- the headnots, which have no force of law, asserted exactly that when he wrote them.

If my memory serves me correctly, he was also the author of several books on the rail industry, and had connections to (or was himself at one time) the president of one or more. I'll go Google this and post what I come up with.

[Occulus]

6. The case

that first "allowed" it was San Diego County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, I believe. Note that the case centered around a tax issue, and the judge specifically did not address the larger issue of corporations being persons under the law. Nonetheless, the man who wrote the summary of the judge's decision- the headnots, which have no force of law, asserted exactly that when he wrote them.

If my memory serves me correctly, he was also the author of several books on the rail industry, and had connections to (or was himself at one time) the president of one or more. I'll go Google this and post what I come up with.

On edit: It was Santa Clara County, not San Diego.

Here's one link:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/uphistory.shtml

and another:

http://www.corporationsarenothuman.org/index.html

and an editorial from indyweek.com:

http://indyweek.com/durham/2003-05-14/eichenberger.html

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

4. Thomas Jefferson agreed with you

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson

Now these corporations have grown so strong they are collaborating with tyrants and dictators all around the world, like they did with Saddam Hussein and like they are now doing with the Communist regime in China.

Can the Democrats do something about this?

[GreenArrow]

8. Unfortunately, at this point

the Democrats are part of it. And that is a bigger problem than even George W Bush and his friends.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. Democrats are part of the problem

The good thing about the Democratic party is that the corporations have had to share a little bit of power with the unions and the white working class, and black people and now Hispanics - all people pretty much outside of corporate power.

I don't see any other option besides the Democrats at this point, there must be something that we can do?

[OneBlueSky]

14. he's not the only one . . . check out these dead presidents . . .

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson

"There is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by... corporations. The power of all corporations ought to be limited in this respect. The growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses. It's one of the reasons why the word "corporation" doesn't exist in the constitution - they were to be chartered only by states, so local people could keep a close eye on them." James Madison, Father of the Constitution

"In this point of the case the question is distinctly presented whether the people of the United States are to govern through representatives chosen by their unbiased suffrages or whether the money and power of a great corporation are to be secretly exerted to influence their judgment and control their decisions." Andrew Jackson

"I am more than ever convinced of the dangers to which the free and unbiased exercise of political opinion - the only sure foundation and safeguard of republican government - would be exposed by any further increase of the already overgrown influence of corporate authorities." Martin van Buren

"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless." Abraham Lincoln

"As we view the achievements of aggregated capital, we discover the existence of trusts, combinations, and monopolies, while the citizen is struggling far in the rear or is trampled to death beneath an iron heel. Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people's masters." Grover Cleveland

"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day." Theodore Roosevelt

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, IS Fascism.” Franklin Delano Roosevelt

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.” Dwight David Eisenhower

[Wapsie B]

7. If we are to have a true

"free market economy" unfettered by rules and regulations Korporations can have NO rights under the law at all. Rights are for individual citizens, not some entity created for the benefit of stockholders.

[Ekaterina]

13. AGREED

agreed agreed agreed........since the entire concept of "corporate rights" came about from headnotes to a 19th century brief, how are we at the point today that allows them free reign with impunity to ravage the earth and abuse employees (not to mention the theivery that obviously has become commonplace)?

[OneBlueSky]

10. more resources on this topic . . .

there have been several excellent discussions about ending corporate governance here on DU that included many references to the issue of corporate personhood . . . they're now on the DU archives site . . . the most recent one was:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5701&forum=DCForumID22&archive=

included references to the Reclaim Democracy site, e.g.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/

two earlier threads that may also be of interest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=22649&forum=DCForumID60&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1615&forum=DCForumID27&archive=

lots of great information and discussion on all of these threads on the issue that, imo, supersedes all others . . .

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. shameless kick for a really big issue

This needs to be kept on the table.

[Az]

12. Not the only differences between people and corporations

Longevity is just one aspect of the difference between humans and corporations. Psychology is another dangerous aspect. The human mind is a combination of experience and biology. That is our brains wiring form a major part of our identity. Our experiences make up the rest. Thus the drives we inherit from our biology make up a part of our society.

Corporations gain experience just as we do. But the bedrock on which this experience takes root is not biology. Instead it is corporate buisness law. There are some key differences that over time lead corporations to become detrimental to humans in many ways.

Our brains are wired to cooperate with our fellow humans. There is a natural tendency for this. Studies have confirmed that humans are naturally altruistic. That is we help each other. This is the basis upon which societies form. We come together to build a stronger structure in which we all can thrive.

Corporations have no such drive. They are predatory and destructive to anything that would stand in their way. There only objective is teh accumulation of wealth and power (emphasis on power). Corporations are essentially antisocial.

Due to corporations longevity and depth of resources (mental and financial) they become increasingly efficient at pressing their issues. Far more than any individual. They become better at influencing the government while humans still struggle with simple problems. Being an artificial structure their evolution can move far faster than societies. Thus like antibiotic resistant bacteria they can foil our attempts to reign them in with great speed. Our triumphs are quickly overturned simply because we are more interested in getting on with our lives than we are in defending agains the corporations. Corporations have nothing better to do than to overturn our hold on society and increase theirs.

[Nikia]

15. It would help a lot if they were not people

I was a socialist when I was younger and my more conservative father poked holes in this ideal. I was left feeling that Capitalism was bad but better than complete Socialism. The real problem with Capitalism though is powerful corporations and why I was inclined to think that Socilaism would be better. I think that free enterprise would not be so bad if corporations were stripped of their rights. Large corporations are in fact obstacles to truly free trade. They have made entry into many industries all but impossible and force smaller companies out of business. Much progress could be made by this change. Free enterprise and democracy were not suppose to be contradictory as they are becoming as corporations become more powerful . They were suppose to be complementary as they could be once again. Perhaps, we've already lost that chance though as corporations donate millions to the campaigns of our nations's lawmakers.

[GumboYaYa]

16. That is the point I make to free market repukes.

There is no greater intrusion into the free market than the limited liability granted to shareholders of corporations.

[Kenneth ken]

17. "Should corporations have any rights under the law?"

no. A corporation is a human-created thing, and therefore essentially no different than any other tool humans devise.

A person driving a tractor has some rights, as well as responsibilities; the tractor itself has no rights.

The exact same thing should hold true for corporations and the people who 'drive' them.

If a person driving a tractor tears up a roadway, for instance, the driver is held liable; corporate executives, once a corporation achieves a certain size and/or stature, seem to become immune from liability for the destruction their running of the corporation may cause.