A role-playing exercise...

[Rich Hunt]

...or a 'fiction' exercise.
Here is a question I have.

Let's say you have covert white supremacist tendencies. You hate Jews, blacks, gays and lesbians, and white 'ethnics' (usually urbanites) who might be 'coddling' or living amongst Jews and blacks. You hate them with an intensity.

Imagine that you are this person. Since your beliefs are considered (in the media, at least) 'extreme', you know that you cannot have the 'legitimate' power you so desperately want. You're never gonna run the U.S. government, or even a state government.

However, what you CAN do is exercise power over others. There IS a difference between 'taking' power, and exercising whatever 'power' you might have.

Imagine you are that person, obsessed with exercising power over those you hate. You find it hard to live with yourself if your self-image as a powerful 'I can mess you up' sort of person isn't being realized in any way.

Just how would you go about living out your power fantasy, making people 'hurt'?

As a part of this exercise, you must not imagine the 'white supremacist' to be a high-school kid. Someone recruits these young men. Someone makes plans for them. Who? What are their goals? What would you do if you were this type of 'leader', with these Nazi fantasies?

[mattclearing]

1. Hehehe...I reject your premise.

Who says if you believe those things you can't be in government? As long as you don't tell anyone, you're fine. Hell, look at Trent Lott, Strom Thurmond, etc.

[enki23]

2. strom thurmond shows us that you can be fine even if you *do* tell

.

[Rich Hunt]

3. fine

But we're not talking about that.

I think you misunderstand 'my premise'.

Well, I reject your premise.

Fact is, Strom Thurmond never followed me around my neighborhood and all the way to the supermarket and waited until I was all alone in the bread aisle to call me 'a nigger'.

Part of my (implicit) point is that people are ignoring a serious and growing problem if they continue to use the 'Strom Thurmond' or 'Trent Lott' cop-outs.

Do you know anything about practicing white supremacists? If you read their literature (no, they DON'T 'talk in code' about this stuff, just anonymously), you'll see that the large majority of them feel that holding public office is 'emasculating'.

Do you know how these people REALLY think? I'm talking about people like, say, Terry Nichols, or Klebold and Harris. Holding public office is for 'pussies' - you are expected to 'tone down' whatever beliefs you have and you are expected to 'get along' with Jews and 'Jew-like' people. That is not acceptable to the most militant among them.

So....you want to exert your 'power' in some way. If you just 'go nuts' and shoot someone, you'll surely end up in prison. You're a member of 'the master race'. You ought to be smarter than that.

So...how do you do it? How do you go about convincing yourself that you've really exerted power over people, or manipulated them?

For example, how do you 'recruit'? How do you 'retain' supporters, and how do you support them financially? How do you make your living?

Or do you think that white supremacist groups pose no threat to ordinary citizens, or to use a very recent case as an example, families of public figures?

[walldude]

4. Truth is you have no "real" power

but I guess if you wanted to excercise what little power you have you could tie a "non-white" to the back of your pick-up truck and drag them around till they fall apart. You wouldn't be the first person to do it.
Can I ask what the point of this little excercise is? The percentage of White Supremists is very small, they have no chance of gaining any power, all they can do is lash out like McVeigh.

[Rich Hunt]

7. not true

I've had far too many bad experiences with these guys. The worst ones like to hide amongst some larger group, as long as it's 'white'. Some people with nasty narcissistic power fantasies 'get off' on being able to 'pass'. The purpose of this is to gain 'intelligence' AND stoke one's fantasies that they are 'really putting one over on people'.

As I said, if you think they 'pose no threat', then how do explain Terry Nichols or the recent murder of family members of a Chicago judge?

Do you think that is just 'lashing out'? Is the World Church of the Creator just 'lashing out'?

You are 'role-playing' whether you believe you are or not. Your role is the 'dismissive' one. So, I'll bite...

"Hey, these people think we're harmless. They think we're just a bunch of crazy kids 'lashing out'. What a great opportunity to do some REAL damage."

Just think of what they could accomplish if people chose to take their eyes off the ball.

[walldude]

12. I never said they pose no real threat

what I said was they have no real power. Yes I call what McVeigh did and the people who executed are just people "lashing out" at the fustration of having no "real" power. What gives this tiny minority and it is a tiny minority their power is FEAR. And if you want to call the fact that I'm not afraid of some White Supremists "dismissive" be my guest. I call it not being afraid of the boogey man. Sure they exist, sure they are assholes doesn't mean I'm going to waste another minute of thought on them. Oh and I am not "role-playing" I am being myself. Also you didn't answer my question. What is the point of this little "excercise"?

[mattclearing]

8. I'm not sure where you're coming from on this, but personally...

...I would go to the web and create a website where such ideas could be shared openly.

[Rich Hunt]

11. Do you read their literature?

'Sharing' is a feminine term for these guys.

They don't 'share'. They assert. They're not interested in 'persuading' young kids who might be 'sitting on the fence'. That is called engagement and they do not 'socially engage' anyone.

This is fascist ideology we're talking about.

Putting your ideas on a web page - well yeah, they do that all over the 'net. But do you think that is enough for those who intend to organize and do some damage?

[mattclearing]

15. I don't know.

Like I said, I don't really know what you are getting at...you put up this hypothetical and then shoot me down for responding to it. What is your correct answer, already?

[Rich Hunt]

20. I'm not shooting YOU down...

It's nothing personal. I don't expect every progressive or activist type, or every person who participates in political activity to be up on the evolution of hate groups.

I'm clearing up some misconceptions about the evolving brand of extremist hate group. They rant and rave about "Jewish psychology" and "Jewish socialization"...and feminism. And individualism.

What does this mean? Well, they won't be doing any blogging, unless the blogging is done collectively. These people appear to be quite hostile to the idea that there should be one prominent and visible 'leader'. The 'unison' is a show of force. It's also a 'ritual' of sorts to individual members that if they get too individualized...they will be cut down.

[Dolomite]

5. If you mean “How do we get people active in the cause?” – here’s one

and it was done fairly cheaply.

There was an e-mail going around titled: Feds Rule "White Pride" is "Offensive" and "Immoral". By Justin J. Moritz

It was a nonsensical rant about some racially aware dolt that was pissed about blowing huge sums of cash trying to get the term “White Pride Nation Wide” a trademark. He whined that “Black Pride” and “Asian Pride” were awarded protection, so why not WP? You can do a web search and find this thing all over the WP sites.

Just an innocent attempt to generate some conversation about reverse discrimination, rile up some more distrust against the institution everyone loves to hate: The .gov.

He included some e-mail addresses that one could send angry messages to (like they’d give a shit) – but it was fairly obvious to anyone with an IQ over 80 what the intent of this massively e-mailed message was.

[Jamastiene]

6. They really do bad things to keep people down and hurt people.

Just read the Hatewatch Newsletter at the Southern Poverty Law Center's web site. These are factual accounts by a group of attorneys who fight hate groups. And yes, anything you can think of, the average white supremacists out there are already doing it. There is even an underground white supremacist record company started and managed by average people. There are professors who teach eugenics as an ethical practice and everything. If you just poke around on the web, you can see how they are already doing these things.

Here are some links to get you started.
http://www.splcenter.org

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/9704b/whitestock.html

Aside from that, let's not do their work for them. The last thing we need on the net is another blueprint for them to cause trouble and hurt people. And believe me, if there is an area of this country (or the world) that doesn't have racists, sexists, and homophobics firmly entrenched and running the area, let's not give them a foothold. Keep 'em separated. That where the segregation would work. Keep those types of people from working in cahoots to hurt people. And for the sake of humankind, don't give them any more ideas.

[Rich Hunt]

9. NO

That's NOT how it works.

That is exactly the logic that allows them to thrive.

You DO have to anticipate their tactics, and share any intelligence you might have about what they might be doing. It does NOT give them 'ideas'. Some of these white supremacists - the ones who 'lead', recruit, select, manipulate, and get away with things are very vain people.

As 'vain' individuals, these guys need to think that they are 'as good' as 'the Jews' and 'the Jew coddlers' (with whom they appear to have a major beef with at this time, according to what I've been reading). They need to prove this to themselves. So what do they do? They study war tactics. They study intelligence tactics. They study history. A lot of these guys are NOT your garden variety scrawny disenchanted kids from the sticks. Many of them are in their forties and fifties, and from what I've been reading, they are looking for ways to come together.

Since I got in BIG trouble the last time I posted a selection of a white supremacist text, let me tell you what they are thinking these days. They think that American society has gotten too 'Jewish'. What they mean is that ideas and ways of relating and ways of doing business are ideas and customs that (they believe) originated with the Jews. Well now people are essentially 'validating' the Jews by carrying on their 'ideas'...stuff like psychology, academic theory, certain 'insular' (as they think) business practices.

Not talking about them and their inner workings and their evolving 'methods' (they are narcissists, remember?) is to them a 'sign' that 'they're getting away with it', that 'they're putting one over on people.' People need a history lesson on espionage, covert intelligence gathering, intimidation tactics, funding of extremist groups, how they recruit and select promising 'members', etc. They're accumulating this intelligence - you can see it on various groups. Therefore, we cannot assume that they are just a bunch of deranged nutcases 'acting out' their hatred. They've had many decades to do that, and it has gotten them nothing.

[Jamastiene]

21. That is exactly what I was saying.

And again, I suggest the Southern Poverty Law Center's findings. I know they are not just "scrawny disenchanted kids from the sticks." They are local doctors, polititicians, preachers, and community leaders. They use all sorts of psychological warfare to frame any issue the way they want people to see it. They are usually trusted individuals (by most in their communities) and trust me, they have been together for a long time now. They have meetings and get togethers in local libraries and churches in my home state. I've been trying to find ways to fight them for years, but unless I get a lot of activists to move to this area, I am pretty much alone and cannot defeat them...Yet. I wish I lived closer to Greensboro or Raleigh. Maybe then, I could get people together to find ways to counteract them. Until then, I fight them alone at home.

[The Whiskey Priest]

10. This is too easy

I would put my head in a meat grinder...and then they would all feel bad because I had put my head in a meat grinder...of course I would not feel that well about it myself.

[0rganism]

13. Do whatever I can to ensure the "lesser" races' poverty...

...and then publicly blame them for their financial irresponsibility and higher per-capita crime rates.

Of course, more specific hypotheses require more detailed premises.

For instance, if I were a manager at a store and had lessers on staff (fairness in hiring standards and all that, which I would decry as state interference in my business decisions) I would ALWAYS deny them promotions, which would be reserved for the greater races. I would make it as hard as possible for junior employees to get raises or vacation time, and fire them for the slightest mistake -- or at least make a big deal out of tiny errors I would otherwise forgive.

If I were a political activist, I would seek to promote statewide ballot measures and city ordinances which would reduce funding and priority for any neighborhood- or family-oriented assistance programs. I would do everything possible to reduce any tax revenue that could go to improving public schools in lesser-heavy areas. I would always refer to these as "special rights" and "coddling minority interests".

If I were a policeman, I would always presume the greatest guilt upon the part of any member of a lesser race. I would always subject them to the fullest scrutiny at the slightest provocation -- e.g., full searches for a traffic violation, equate loitering with intent to commit robbery, and so on.

If I were a broadcaster, I would cast aspersions at every opportunity upon the lessers for their assumed crimes -- but never as a race, oh no, "some of my best friends are lessers" would be a mantra. Rather, always focus upon the symptoms of their socio-economic woes, and blame those who seek systemic remedies for pushing a "nanny state" to protect those least deserving of respect.

If I were independently wealthy, I would establish or contribute funds to think-tanks and PACs which promoted the messages and political leanings of like-minded folk. I would belong to exclusive country clubs where even the valets and busboys were ubers rather than lessers. I would hobnob with my friends in the financial sector, and always insinuate that they shouldn't tender loans or handle investments from lessers.

If I were a cube monkey, I would set up a right-wing blog that would pander to the interests of the aforementioned groups, grabbing whatever statistics and "facts" they provided to promote my viewpoint. I would denigrate those who support lessers as ignorant tools of the oppressive establishment who prevented me from attaining the greatness I truly deserved.

If I were a normal working blue-collar guy, I would use the lessers as proof of my own relative greatness even in my diminished social standing. I would always epilogue any self-critical thoughts with "at least I'm not a (insert racial slur for lesser of choice here)" to maintain a facsimile of self-esteem. I would talk loudly in bars about the unfairness of taxation for redistributing wealth to lessers who do not deserve it. I would shop at the stores managed by the first example, I would support causes promoted by the second example, I would support every anti-lesser action of the third example, I would listen to media from the fourth example, I would defend the privileged exclusivity of the fifth example, and I would tout the great wisdom, expert authority and technical savvy expressed by the sixth example. If I got really desparate, I might even join the KKK or some other ultra-reactionary movement.

Wow, come to think of it, that might just describe around 36% of the American population.

[Rich Hunt]

17. good points

But see...the 'mainstreaming' of the internet is a relatively new thing in the so-called 'Heartland'.

I watch a lot of extremist groups, and read a lot of extremist literature. What I am observing is that they are alarmed enough at 'this internet thing' that they want to use it to find like minds and strengthen their militant movements.

The people you allude to would be garden-variety bigots. We are talking about active and committed militants here. Terry Nichols types. They don't DO politics. They don't believe in rubbing shoulders with blacks or Jews in the political arena. To them, the political realm is too black and Jew corrupted. They don't want to work with blacks at all. Seriously.

So, one thing they might do (and appear to do, in the case of the Midwest) is be close enough to the things that they hate to observe them, but far enough away that they don't have to deal with blacks or Jews very much at all. We're talking the fringes of the suburbs here. This is one tactic I am imagining.

Another thing is...to these extremists, blogging is 'self-expression' and that is too 'literate' and therefore 'too Jewish'. It's also too individualistic, and they are strongly opposed to that. This is fascist ideology we're talking about. You know what a 'fasces' is? It is a bundle that is strengthened by rods that are of the same size. Not one of them should 'stick out'. Self-expression, individualism = BAD. Groupthink communicates POWER.

They might have an anonymous group website here and there. They might post some of their ideology to forums such as usenet. But they're sick of the right-wingers who 'censor' their opinions or 'water them down'.

Things have changed.

One thing that the self-appointed 'hate watchdogs' have failed miserably at is this : they have failed to take seriously the concomitant issues of misogyny and gay bashing. The avoidance of anything 'feminine' is also key. I've been reading these people for YEARS. What has happened is that over the years, they've become disenchanted with 'mainstream' right-wing movements because the mainstream ones 'temper' their message or accomodate the hated groups too much. They have added militant anti-feminism to their agenda. They are also disenchanted with the traditional right because the traditional right is not actively practicing hate. What I am seeing emerge is hate as an almost 'religious' concept. I've seen people on right-wing boards ostracized and bullied by certain members because they don't hate enough.

Another current obsession appears to be the 'Jew-like' individual - someone who hangs around Jews, or who validates 'psychology' or psychiatry (they are obsessed with this), someone who is too 'academic' (also too 'Jewish').

I'm saying that I am disappointed in the current 'anti-hate' literature because it does not take into account how these groups have evolved.

There is a problem with our dealing with people who have prejudice or ignorance : we shun them. We don't engage them. This is a white people's practice. It's their way of convincing themselves that they are properly anti-racist and don't 'tolerate' anyone who might show the faintest hint of bigotry.

What I'm observing is: it's phony, and the most extreme bullying elements on the far right have felt emboldened by this 'I don't talk to the ignorant' philosophy.

[0rganism]

22. A lot of those hate groups include web-literate people

Hence, sites like stormfront abound to promote racist contacts, music and memorabilia.

I must have misunderstood your original exercise, when you said "covert" racist tendencies. I would think active and committed militants would be more "overt", but that may be a matter of semantics.

My inkling is that the members of the groups you've described are a tiny minority compared to the people who sympathize with their mission. For every Reverend Phelps, there are a million Americans who think he's got the right take on things but would never push themselves away from their televisions long enough to do anything about it. For every George Lincoln Rockwell there are ten thousand Americans who agree with everything he says but don't have the motivation (or guts or poor taste) to put on a brown shirt and goose-step through Skokie.

The overt hate groups certainly are dangerous in their intensity and organization, but the masses of seething bigots are, IMHO, MORE dangerous because they harbor many of the same ideas without the aversions to social norms or dead-giveaway behaviors. Without the passive racists and bigots, if it were only the "out" groups we had to cope with, I'd be more confident of our long-term success; even if they had ten times their membership, we would have them alienated and on the fringe, and they'd disappear within a generation or two. But the latent bigotry is the fertile soil from which they harvest crops of new recruits.

[Boojatta]

14. white supremacist propaganda for African Americans

"Just how would you go about living out your power fantasy, making people 'hurt'?"

I would try to persuade African Americans that, under Mugabe's government, elections in Zimbabwe have been completely fair. I would tell them that news of harassment or torture of supporters of opposition parties has been entirely false news, fabricated to damage the reputation of a progressive government and the righteous leader of that progressive government.

I would tell anti-racist African Americans that America is fundamentally racist and that the news in America is biased and that the only solution is to renounce their US citizenship, emigrate to Zimbabwe, and see for themselves.

To African Americans who are (anti-white) racists, I would hint that Zimbabwe is the place to go to be a part of a successful fight against whites.

How's that? What's the point of this exercise?

[Rich Hunt]

18. well, I'm a little frustrated

Since so many of you appear to have no familiarity with the groups I'm talking about.

You ask : 'what's the point'. Well, I could apply the same logic and ask: 'why do you ask'?

The point is that we need to be aware of the power of HATE as a motivator. And the lure of power as a motivator. And we have to allow (to save lives!) for the fact that some of the 'smarter' (i.e., more 'self-controlled') fascists might plot...not to take power, but to seek revenge : against government, against institutions that represent everything they despise (modernity, feminism, getting too friendly with 'the Jews' or the blacks). To leave an impact.

So, let's say I'm a Nazi, and I'm pretty vain about it. I'm not all pimply and awkward and hotheaded (I imagine) like those stereotypes you see on cable tv documentaries or Oprah. No, I'm gonna show those 'Jews' and their friends with their sophisticated 'liberal' ways.

What can I do? Well, first of all, one thing I really hate about them is that they think they're so much 'smarter' than I am, with their college degrees and their philosophy and all. Well...I'll study too. I'll find a subject to master. Like war, for example. And I'll study -their- stuff too, because that's what the real powerful 'surveyors' do - they study the comings and goings of their enemy. 'Cos I imagine myself to be a good little fascist soldier. So, I study. It makes me feel smart.

Then I use that intelligence to find ways to hurt people terribly - but hopefully get away with it.

Mainly, I want to let people know that 'I get them', I've got them pinned down. And then, when I've let them know that, I'll throw in a bit of harassment or terror just to show them what I can do to them.

[goodhue]

16. I would start railing against "illegal" immigrants from Mexico . . .

I would arm myself and my vigilante militia and then join in on the "debate" on faux tv . .

[Rich Hunt]

19. yes, 'the Mexicans' are a concern of theirs

They're going to make this country even 'less white', in their opinion.

Since 'the Mexicans' are a relatively new concern of theirs, as opposed to anti-black and anti-Jewish hate, they might still be lurking around the anti-immigrant forums and groups, trying to 'select' the most 'fit'...the ones who are most likely to be committed to their 'struggle'. So that might be one place you want to look. Good lead.

[Time for change]

23. I would take the path of Bush and his cronies

Just because I hold white supremecist views doesn't mean that I have to admit it.