what kind of person blames the families of the mentally ill

[mopinko]

for the harm that befalls them? really people. we do not have crystal balls, we do not have magic wands. we often do not even have the support of doctors, meds, etc, or the legal power to do jack shit to help them. do we feel guilty when tragedies happen? hell yes we do. we fight tooth and nail to keep them safe. we feel it is our job. but in a world where care is hard to come by, it is a huge one.
there is really no excuse for what happened to this man. law enforcement is SUPPOSED TO BE TRAINED TO HANDLE THIS KIND OF SHIT. the largest psychiatric ward in the the state of illinois is the cook county jail. help is NOT out there in any comprehensive way. believe me, i know. and to get legal control over an adult, in any way, shape or form, you have to start with a call to 911. knowing that this kind of bad outcome is always possible. that is the way it is here on the ground. all you idiots blaming this woman for what happened to her husband, because she feels guilty, ought to think a little about walking in our shoes. then you ought to SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[Love Bug]

1. Amen, mopinko

Until someone has "walked a mile" and all that, they cannot judge.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DS1]

19. so what?

When I'm told to shut the fuck up, in all caps, for an opinion I hold, am I expected to return the politeness?

[Thtwudbeme]

20. when were you told to shut the fuck up?

?

I missed that.

[DS1]

24. "then you ought to SHUT THE FUCK UP. "

Right, I'll get right on that

[Thtwudbeme]

28. OK

well, this is a first.

Now I don't know what you are talking about.

[MercutioATC]

31. I believe he's referring to the last line in the body of the original post

[Thtwudbeme]

33. aha

thanks.

Damn...I need to get off this subthread, I now realize that I don't have a dog in this fight...

My apologies, carry on.

[DS1]

32. Read the OP

It'll give you some insight

[Thtwudbeme]

34. I did..it doesn't have your name in it

I didn't realize you and mopinko were in a DU "relationship." I couldn't see the invisible message that was meant for your eyes only.

Sorry.

Steph

[MercutioATC]

3. I haven't seen anybody blaming her for what happened.

:shrug:

[mopinko]

8. uh, hello

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5546170

[Yollam]

12. The fact that she's been through a tragedy...

...doesn't change the fact that she and/or her husband screwed up.

Marshal fulfilled his duty as a marshal. Rigoberto did not fulfill his duty as a passenger, which is to behave in an orderly manner and NOT CLAIM TO HAVE A BOMB.

[MercutioATC]

14. Perhaps you missed this in the OP...

"I'm not blaming her for what happened"

...or my other posts restating that my goal was to discuss the decisions made BEFORE the incident and whether different decisions could have resulted in a different outcome.

I think it's a fair question to ask and I think the topic is worthy of discussion.

[mopinko]

23. decision?

to say that someone made a "decision" and then something bad happened shows that you have no idea what the situation is. to say that she "made a decision" implies a level of responsibility. to say "what kind of person" is just bullshit.

[MercutioATC]

27. A couple of points:

1) She made SEVERAL decisions that, had she made them differently, might have resulted in a different outcome. That's not assigning blame, that's stating fact.

2) I didn't say "what kind of person", I said "who".

[mopinko]

41. to make a decision, there has to be more than one choice

available. i don't know that she had any other choice available to her. usually, there are not many. and unless she had power of attorney for her husband, or had him tied up, she did not "take him on a plane." he is a person, legally and morally, and, although mentally ill, still walked, talked, and got on the plane like a person. where to draw the line when someone is ill is a complex universe. one that people who have never been there have no clue about, and they should be mindful of their ignorance.

[Walt Starr]

57. Here's a thought....

She gets on the plane, then takes a moment to say this to a flight attendant:

"I'm sorry, but my husband is bi-polar and we've run out of medication. I only say this because it is possible his behavior could become erratic on this flight and I would like to prepare you for that possibility."

That simple step could have avoided the entire situation.

[mopinko]

62. easy for you to say

which is the point of this thread. til you have walked in those shoes, you do not know what is simple, and what is hard. here's a clue for you- nothing is simple when you are in that situation. nothing. and everything is hard. everything.

[Walt Starr]

65. I have no sympathy

It was a question of this man's life or everybody's lives.

The Air Marshal acted correctly.

[mopinko]

70. "I have no sympathy"

no shit walt. no shit.

[Walt Starr]

71. Thems the breaks

The greater good had to win out.

Had the guy actually had a bomb and the Air Marshal had not acted accordingly (within the doctrines of his training), the carnage would have been far worse.

[sam sarrha]

81. you are absolutely irresponsible and STUPID if you do no have the meds

[MercutioATC]

84. Actually, she talked him into getting on the plane.

That was a choice.

She knew he was bipolar and off his meds and she chose not to alert airline personnel.

That was a choice.

She knew that he was already upset and she still boarded the plane with him, still refusing to alert authorities.

That was a choice.

[Kingshakabobo]

10. There was a thread today titled ...

Who in their right mind would let someone fly who is off their medication.....or something close to that. I looked but DU is moving fast today.

[MercutioATC]

18. Actually, it was "Who takes a bipolar man who's off his meds onto

an airplane?" and I started the thread.

I've tried to answer the "blame" accusation in Post #14 here.

[Skidmore]

4. Well said and understood.

Until you've dealt with assisting a person with mental illness in a world which fears them and a system that is set up to save money, you don't understand how difficult life is for them and those around them.

[calico1]

43. Here in CT, just as an example

almost all mental treatment centers have been shut down due to budget cuts. The mentally ill are now often housed in homes for the elderly. About two years ago a woman in one of these homes set her bed on fire because the voices in her head told her to. Several of the elderly inhabitants died in the fire. She was a schizophrenic and this was a disaster waiting to happen. But we gotta save money you know! I imagine a lot of other states are also cutting funds for the treatment of the mentally ill. I fear that increasingly mental illness is just being shrugged off as being more an attitude problem than a real illness. I see this more and more, and unfortunately even in places and from people where you would not expect it from. :-(

[mopinko]

50. even with good insurance, there is no infrastructure

a once a week visit to talk, and pills if you will take them really are a drop in the bucket. but that is what you get, unless you are completely out of control. and even then, as soon as you calm down, you are out.
a week or 2 in the psyche ward, where the goal is to crank up the meds until you are a zombie, is the norm. never mind that most meds take weeks to really have an effect.
the lucky kids that can get into a decent school situation sometimes get something like what is necessary. but that is a feat in itself.

[efhmc]

5. The same type of person that kills them precipitously. Not good people.

[melody]

6. there isn't anyone to blame

That's the real tragedy of this situation -- there isn't anyone to blame. One family member can't control a person in hypermania and if someone came charging at any one of us with what he says is
a bomb, I think shooting would be a normal response, if one is holding a gun.

[prodigal_green]

7. a family member's medication

costs over $700/month and her job does not provide insurance. Yeah, there are times when she doesn't take her pills.

[Yollam]

9. They did "handle this shit"

"law enforcement is SUPPOSED TO BE TRAINED TO HANDLE THIS KIND OF SHIT."


It's sad what happened to this poor man, really, but they are trained first and foremost to protect the passengers, not the man threatening to have a bomb. It would have been good if this had been preventable, but if the story the marshal told is true, he acted correctly. And chances are that any other mentally ill person on a plane who claims to have a weapon will be shot too, esp. if he fails to follow instructions.

Air marshals are not there to diagnose mental illnesses or be counselors for agitated passengers. They are there to respond swiftly and decisively to any threats to the passengers of the plane. The woman and her husband made a serious mistake at some point, whether it was forgetting his meds or even taking a plane in the first place, but that's the breaks.'

There is a big sign at any airport that says "Do not mention BOMBS or WEAPONS, even in jest". They are not joking, people.

[mopinko]

13. being mentally ill is not a capitol offense

shoot to kill anyone that is out of control is not an acceptable law enforcement strategy.

[Yollam]

26. No, but making threats on a plane can be.

Sorry, but that's the way it is an no amount of complaining will change it. I guarantee that if a poll were taken, 95% of Americans would think the marshals acted correctly, and probably 80% of democrats.

I understand your feelings - what happened is a waste and a shame, but protecting a large group of passengers has to take precedence over the possibility that the guy claiming to have the bomb might be sick.

[Walt Starr]

42. And it's been that way since the '70's!

That's the bit about this one that gets me!

What part of DO NOT USE THE WORD BOMB, EVEN AS A JOKE, IN AN AIRPORT OR AIRPLANE is not understood by all DUers?????

:shrug:

[mopinko]

52. what part of mentally ill do you not get?

do you not understand that being mentally ill means not understanding the world around you?

[Walt Starr]

54. Irrelevent to the situation

I'm sorry, but the guy being mentally ill is completely irrelevent to the situation. He was threatening. He would not comply with a lawful order by an Air Marshal. The Air Marshal was left with no other choice.

[mopinko]

56. so cops should just shoot anyone who doesn't

do what the cops say? oh, i forgot, after 911 we became a police state.

[Walt Starr]

60. In an airport or an airplane

they have little in the way of options.

[aikoaiko]

68. Actually shooting someone who is out of control IS acceptable

If the LEO thinks the "out of control" person (as you say) might be a threat to others, then it is acceptable to shoot.

ETA: It doesn't matter if the "out of control" person is the way he or she is because of mental illness, drugs, or ideology.

[Thtwudbeme]

16. We DUers do not know if he mentioned a bomb or not

Ohhhh wait...that's right...I read your thread...I believe you were there?

[Yollam]

21. I believe the marshal.

until someone contradicts his story there is no reason not to.

[Thtwudbeme]

25. Oh, I see. Well that gives you complete credibility then.

Have you ever considered that the marshall LIED? Goddamned if I wouldn't have either...if my job were on the line for overreacting, and I had just killed a man...hell yes...I would lie through my freaking teeth, Amigo.

Sorry...you don't have a clue as to what really happened...neither do I.

[jeanarrett]

46. Well, since several passengers who were THERE have

said that they never heard the man say anything about a bomb, I guess I'll just believe the marshalls too. :sarcasm: I mean they wouldn't be doing any CYA or anything.

[Yollam]

76. The fact that they didn't hear it doesn't mean he didn't say it.

Did they say they were in earshot the whole time, or dispute the officer's claim? I don't think so.

[jeanarrett]

83. Right. And the fact that no WMDs were found in Iraq

doesn't mean they aren't really there and that Bush wasn't lying. Duh. If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, did it make a sound?

[mopinko]

36. "Do not mention BOMBS or WEAPONS, even in jest"

guess they should change that to read- or you will be shot and killed. should we get used to that, then?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. The lack of compassion and the lack of understanding of the

mentally ill is really, really disturbing, as is this "the cops are always right" attitude.

Two things tell me loud and clear that there was no actual danger:

1) The bag had been screened before the couple boarded the plane, and even though prohibited items sometimes slip through, I've found in my travels that screeners are usually overly zealous, stopping to hand inspect things like curling irons and bottles of cough syrup.

2) Real-life bombers don't run around shouting that they have a bomb. They usually try to be as inconspicuous as possible to avoid detection before detonating.

If you've never heard of any incidents in your area where the cops shot obviously unarmed people who weren't threatening anyone, then you live in a very fortunate community.

People seem not to consider the possibility that a law enforcement officer can be an authoritarian asshole who is concerned not so much about the safety of the public as about challenges to his authority. As one who was once pulled over and yelled at by a traffic cop for violating a "law" that he had made up on the spot (traveling "too slowly" in the right lane of a road through a small town--not illegal, I checked later) and having been threatened with arrest when I politely disputed another traffic cop's contention that I was driving 80 miles an hour (I'm too chicken to drive that fast), I don't take the statements of law-enforcement types at face value without corroborating evidence.

[MercutioATC]

22. Here's what makes it through a security screening checkpoint:

"Recent tests of airport security to determine whether screeners would discover concealed guns, knives, and simulated bombs had failure rates comparable to tests done in the 1980s and 1990s, says Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), who was briefed in April on the classified results. The earlier tests showed that screeners missed roughly 20 percent of the prohibited items at checkpoints and that screeners using X-ray machines to examine luggage missed 2 of every 3 bags carrying simulated explosives."

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2004/07/06_400...

[ProfessorGAC]

39. Two Words For The "Cops Are Right" Folks

Orlando Cruz. Do some research! Years on death row for a crime they KNEW he didn't commit.

The Professor

[Yollam]

40. I don't think this is about the cops always being right.

In fact, there are many times when I think cops go overboard.

But in this specific situation, I think a lot of people understand that the safety of the passengers has to be a higher priority than any potential misunderstandings that might arise. The officer has to act on the assumption that the threat is real, period. And personally, I feel safer flying knowing that's the case.

If the exact same incident had happened at a shopping mall or other venue, the outcome might have been different, but airports and planes require a higher level of vigilance and lower tolerance of threats.

[mopinko]

45. and a lower level of citizenship, i guess

NOTICE TO CITIZENS- SETTING FOOT ON AN AIRPLANE MAKES YOU A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN, AND FORFEITS YOUR PROTECTIONS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.
maybe we should put that sign up in the airports, then, eh?

[Walt Starr]

55. Bingo!

Location location location.

That's 95% oif this situation.

[mopinko]

59. gee, i missed it that the constitution

doesn't apply once you are in the airport.
the plane was on the ground, ferchrissakes.

[Walt Starr]

61. Again, irrelevent to the situation.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this is reality. We live in a world where Air Marshals have to choose the lesser of two evils, kill one person or potentially allow an entire plane to go up.

Do you know how much fuel and how volatile that fuel is when a plane is sitting ont eh ground waiting to taxi to a runway?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. AMEN

[mopinko]

29. bwahahahahaha

thanks for the ovation. i needed that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Anytime n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Law enforcement was trained to handle the situation

And they handled it. It is a tragedy what happened, but it would ahve been an even greater tragedy if this guy had possessed a bomb and used it.

[mopinko]

35. so, you approve of law enforcement being

judge, jury and executioner, then? alrighty, then. so, where does the well known and accepted insanity defense come in? his wife screaming that he is mentally ill wouldn't cut it in your street justice, then?

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Sometimes they have to make life or death decisions in a split second

Unfortunately sometimes law enforcement has to clean up the mess when families and mental health professionals fail.

[mopinko]

49. "clean up the mess" by killing them?

and how do you describe failure? or success for that matter? it is a concept that someone who has been there would not even understand. surviving, coping, managing, that is the best we do.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. I think that this incident would qualify as a failure

She apperently knew that he was not taking his meds.

[mopinko]

53. and failed to wave her magic wand

i guess.

[Freddie Stubbs]

58. She took him on an airplane

She should have taken him to a doctor.

[mopinko]

69. who says she didn't?

and guess what, doctors don't have magic wands, either. if he was on meds, he had a doctor. he went to the doctor. you can't just drag them to the doc every time they don't take their pills. it doesn't work that way. you don't know. that is my point. you monday morning quarterbacks do not have a clue.

[MadHound]

73. Perhaps that was why they were on the plane

To get to a doctor that they liked and trusted:shrug:

[bridgit]

38. "crystal balls"...

beyond this most tragic incident brought about, ultimately, by a host of others, from elsewhere while standing in our midst; who are not seen in any sense as harboring any reluctance, whatsoever, to kill us where we stand; steps a hapless individual with a shout of his own. primal, or otherwise, and the deed is done.

let the word go forth. these are no-less than contentious times in which we live. we can ignore it all in sum total. we can see it for what it is. but it is there. america is not the same; as if it ever was. still...

a call to 911 in my town is no guarantee of timely, expeditious resolution

[BoneDaddy]

44. hmmm

I think you are addressing some of the extreme responses I, too, have heard and in that case I think you are correct, but I also think that you are off in some ways.

You are correct in that blaming this poor suffering woman for her husbands death is not only NOT LIBERAL, it is cruel and brutal.

That said, the accountability in this situations falls upon many shoulders, primarily that of the man who died. He is primarily accountable because he should know his illness. Manic/depressive does not mean ignorant or stupid. His responsibility is to have stayed on his meds, ESPECIALLY IF HE IS TRAVELING OR IS OUT OF THE COUNTRY. I guarantee that he has had a history of knowing what happens when he is off his meds. So he, as a person, responsible for his own life situation and is primarily accountable.

The wife is also partially accountable in that she most likely is aware of what he is like. These people have a history of his illness and needed to be better prepared. Bi-polar is not a walk in the park, it is a potentially dangerous illness not only to the patient but to everyone around them. A person in the manic phase believes they are invincible and make very extreme behavior choices (such as driving 120 mph down a busy road)to being abusive etc...In their depressive stage, they may kill themselves, so medication is very very important. To refuse to take your "lifesaving" medication is very very irresponsible. The "I don't like to take my meds" excuse is NOT AN OPTION if we are going to interact in society.

The idea of leaving the safety of home, placing this man in a foreign situation, not to mention flying a plane which is very very anxiety provoking is taking a dangerous risk.

Did their lack of judgement mean that he deserved to die? Of course not, but simple measures to ensure his safety, her safety and the safety of others were ignored and ultimately led to his demise.

When senseless situations occur people search for clarity and defintion. We cannot do this in this situation, as nothing makes sense. Given that I have wrote extensively about the correct but difficult responses of the air marshalls, I will not go into that more.

[mopinko]

48. simple measures

there are no "simple measures" in the families of the mentally ill. none.

[Walt Starr]

63. Here's one

1) Get her husband seated.
2) Pull a flight atendent aside.
3) say, "My husband is bipolar and we have run out of his medication. There is a slight chance that because of this, his behavior will become erratic. Should this start happening, I will let you know. It may be best in such a situation that he be restrained to avoid any unnecessary accidents."

[mopinko]

74. stigma

yeah, tell everyone that you come across that your husband is mentally ill. in this day and age of no privacy. yeah, that's a fine idea. sure. to say nothing of the fact that that may well have gotten them booted off the flight.

[Walt Starr]

75. One Flight attendant

That's all it would have taken. No other passengers needed to know.

It is precisely what I would do in an identical situation.

And from experience, when somebody you are close to goes off their medication, you know it.

[BoneDaddy]

77. That is your shame mopinko

Please Mopinko. Stop trying to look for reasons why we should "victimize" everyone with a mental illness. Stop projecting your shame onto everyone. If you are ashamed of your mentally ill relative that is your personal issue, stop trying to globalize your experience. If you truly care for your loved one's well being, get over your shame and mature.

[mopinko]

79. shame? my shame?

oh, please.

[calico1]

64. Tell me about it.

I have a sister who is mentally ill. It has never been as simple as some seem to think. I wish it were. It sure would have made ours and especially my parents lives much more bearable. Things that I have learned include: you cannot forcefully shove meds down a mentally ill person's throat. They are unpredictable. Will be fine and then all of a sudden snap for seemingly no reason at all. My sister often refused to take her meds because she was convinced my mother was trying to poison her. Or she'd pretend to take them and we'd find the pills tucked away somewhere in a crevice, under a pillow, etc. Its a consant battle and struggle. I don't wish it on anyone.

[BoneDaddy]

72. true

I empathize with you as I struggled with some of the same. All I am saying is that you wouldn't make the decision to take your sister out of the country without a plan. You wouldn't expose her to a potentially triggering event. You wouldn't have left her alone if it was clear she was agitated.

I am not blaming the women or the man. This is horrible event, but they were accountable for the events leading up to this and their lack of judgement and taking this illness seriously is part and parcel to his demise.

Mentally ill does not mean totally incompetant. In some cases such as schizophrenia it may mean. But Bi-polar and most mental illnesses there most certainly is a level of accountability. That is how most get better...They learn how to be accountable for themselves in lieu of having a mental illness.

[BoneDaddy]

66. wrong

As a counselor in the field of mental health and someone who has lived with an alcoholic and manic/depressive I agree and I don't agree.

I agree that you can never control any person or their situation andthat life can be very chaotic from day to day.

I don't agree in that simple measures such as basic planning for emergencies is not out of the realm of common sense. Takng a person out of the country, without proper supervision, being exposed to the anxiety producing event of flying, not having medication monitoring and at least not alerting the airline of what you were dealing with is gross negligence.

This concept that the mentally ill and their families are "victims" and are not responsible is part of the problem. I don't mean blaming and shaming them, so stop trying to paint me with your broad brush.

[bloom]

67. Exactly right.

Plus:

If people want to do something - lobby to get universal health care for everyone - esp. the mentally ill.

And if they don't want to ride on planes with mentally ill people - they better stay off of planes - unless it's their own.

[hunter]

78. Oh fuck it all. Forget the damned airplanes, I'm walking.

If the guys with guns hadn't been on that airplane, this wouldn't have happened. With all these armed air marshalls flying around, how many terrorists have they caught? Oh yeah, it's a "deterrent." Well fuck that too.

This is the kind of thing that happens when you live in a nation of cowardly couch potatos. Guys with guns shoot people.

The terroists are probably laughing their asses off now seeing pictures of those passengers getting off the airplane with their hands held on their heads. Terror happens and they didn't even have to lift a finger! God must be on their side.

BITE ME.

Go became an expert couch potato by watching some more idiot television crime dramas and more idiot television news.

I'm going for a walk.

:argh:

[mopinko]

80. i hear ya.

my brother is getting married next summer across the country, and i so do not want to fly there. it is such a load of crap.

[jeanarrett]

82. Right on, Hunter!

[Orangeone]

85. Meds don't always work

My family member can take his meds, but still have a suicidal episode...there's no magic pill that cures mental illness.