Canada's PM contemplating banning all hand guns.

[Swede]

Sounds good to me.



MONTREAL -- Prime Minister Paul Martin is expected to announce today a Liberal government would bring in a ban on most handguns in Canada. The prohibition will cover those handguns already registered. However, sources say special arrangements will be made for gun collectors.

Sources told CanWest News Service on Wednesday night that Martin wants to choke off the supply of handguns in this country, particularly weapons brought into Canada illegally and those sold on the black market.



http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/story.html?id=896bcb04-de9e-400c-9b86-7877d3c3c99c&k=57641

[stepnw1f]

1. Wow...

:popcorn:

[crankybubba]

2. yep registration is all they want

it NEVER leads to confiscation <sarcasm>

[applegrove]

10. Well - not if the "people who kill people" demonstrate they are

growing in numbers and ruining cities. Fifty deaths by guns is too much (Toronto - metropolitan area 3 Million)in Canada (apparently in the USA - that is a very healthy number of murder by gun).

And now they can throw every gang member or hanger on - into jail for having a gun.

Perhaps - in a few years time ... 50 deaths in major cities - of which Canada has 3... that is 150 lives saved a year. Put that over 20 years... and that saves as many people as were killed on 9/11. (Oh and the gun crime problem would just extrapolate as it has in U.S. cities so my estimates are conservative). So - just like you in the US have taken away some freedom to ensure 3000 more people do not die - so do we. To save some lives (but these ones not a mix of middle class, rich & working, these all poor people & kids & police).

Such a shame the way we treat people (we have as many hunters as you and they are not affected - so too).

[applegrove]

32. Well you see - the issue came back because the rate of gun murders

increased many times over. And though that seems to be fine by you - it isn't okay with us.

If gun crime was not exploding and kids were not being killed and communities morphed into hell - there would be no need.

[crankybubba]

40. so you are saying you strict

gun control did'nt work like the anti gun crowd said it would....suprise suprise. but more will....
Goood luck with that. see ya in five years when that did'nt work and you are looking to ban hunting guns as a result.

[applegrove]

71. Well - 50 gun crime murders would sound great to any 3 Million plus

city in the USA where the number is regularly upwards of 300.

But it is a change for us. People in communities that used to be poor and full of crime - now are in communities where gun death tortures them all and silence voices and steals children. And like I state elsewhere - it is the illegal trade across the border and handguns being stolen from homes that is well over half the problem%.

So if we attack the gun violence all all 3 sides - (illegal border trade from unscrupulus gun dealers in the USA 50%, home stolen guns & lawfully bought handguns used unlawfully - if we attack on all sides perhaps we can get the crime back down. Thank god we don't have your culture. Think how angry we would be if our cities looked like yours.

[rinsd]

56. The point is gun control advocates say registration does not....

...equal confiscation.

Well guess what? That is exactly what we are seeing.

When gun control advocates wonder why gun rights supporters fight tooth and nail against what seems to be sensible regulations, it is crap like this.

"If gun crime was not exploding and kids were not being killed and communities morphed into hell - there would be no need."

Same logic gives us the WOD.

[Squatch]

3. Step 1. Initiate a mandatory registration of firearms.

Step 2. Ban those firearms.
Step 3. Confiscate those firearms.

[Swede]

4. Step 4. Watch gun deaths drop 90 per cent.

nt

[Squatch]

5. So, criminals will be handing in their firearms, then?

[Swede]

6. I repeat: Watch gun deaths drop by 90%.

If that's not good enough for you,nothing will.

[Squatch]

7. Nothing will, what?

What orifice did you pull that 90% out of?

Old article:

Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

Link

[Swede]

9. Gun deaths in the USA are 10 times higher than the developed world.

End of argument.

[crankybubba]

11. how does that figure into the argument about

CANADA banning handguns. the u.s. is a different country last time i checked.

[Squatch]

12. Fun with BS statistics! C'mon everybody, join the action!

[slackmaster]

99. Correlation is insufficient to prove causation

Comparing the stats at a given moment for two different countries with different sets of laws and different histories does not prove anything.

[billbuckhead]

123. Yeah, that's what tobacco and oil companies said

We heard for 50 years the tobacco companies saying correlation doesn't prove causation. Then we heard oil companies for several decades saying there is no proof that global warming is caused by greenhouse emissions. I find it fascinating that the oil companies, the tobacco industry and the gun lobby are all in bed with many of the same corrupt politicians, lobbyists and judges such as Cheney, Abramoff, DeLay, Norquist, Machinegun Sammy Alito, Bolton, Cunningham, ad nauseum.

[slackmaster]

134. There's a big difference

Actual scientific research shows a CAUSAL link between tobacco smoking and health problems.

You lose, billbuckhead.

[billbuckhead]

143. A .7 correlation is damning and many studies are even higher

An interstate comparison of the United States is also quite revealing. All states, some localities, and the federal government have laws concerning weapons, including their sale, possession, manufacturing, importation and use. Examples include bans on machine guns, carrying concealed weapons or sales to felons. Violations of these laws are called "weapons offenses," and they make up about 2 percent of all arrests nationwide. They do not include crimes like armed robbery, armed assault, etc.

It turns out there is a quite strong correlation between the murder rate and the weapons offense arrest rate.

State murder rates (per 100,000 population) and weapons offense arrest
rates (per 100,000 population), 1993. (t = tie) (6)

Weapons Weapons
Murder Offense Murder Offense
State Rate Rate Rank Rank
------------------------------------------------
Louisiana 20.3 142 1 4
Mississippi 13.5 135 2 8
New York 13.3 102 3 20
California 13.1 135 4 9
Maryland 12.7 104 5 19
Texas 11.9 139 6 7
Alabama 11.6 67 7 34
Georgia 11.4 149 8 3
Illinois 11.4 75 9 30(t)
North Carolina 11.3 132 10 10
Missouri 11.3 199 11 1
Nevada 10.4 141 12 5
South Carolina 10.3 77 13 29
Arkansas 10.2 126 14 13
Tennessee 10.2 131 15 11
Michigan 9.8 107 16 16(t)
Alaska 9.0 107 17 16(t)
Florida 8.9 68 18 33
Arizona 8.6 114 19 15
Oklahoma 8.4 91 20 24
Virginia 8.3 129 21 12
New Mexico 8.0 71 22 32
Indiana 7.5 59 23 38
West Virginia 6.9 77 24 28
Pennsylvania 6.8 49 25 40
Kentucky 6.6 106 26 18
Kansas 6.4 94 27 22(t)
Connecticut 6.3 116 28 14
Ohio 6.0 97 29 21
Colorado 5.8 140 30 6
New Jersey 5.3 94 31 22(t)
Washington 5.2 75 32 30(t)
Delaware 5.0 30 33 44(t)
Oregon 4.6 81 34 26
Wisconsin 4.4 165 35 2
Massachusetts 3.9 35 36 42
Nebraska 3.9 78 37 27
Rhode Island 3.9 60 38 36(t)
Hawaii 3.8 60 39 36(t)
Vermont 3.6 1 40 50
Wyoming 3.4 31 41 43
Minnesota 3.4 61 42 35
South Dakota 3.4 41 43 41
Utah 3.1 85 44 25
Montana 3.0 12 45 49
Idaho 2.9 52 46 39
Iowa 2.3 30 47 44(t)
New Hampshire 2.0 16 48 48
North Dakota 1.7 25 49 46
Maine 1.6 23 50 47
--------------------------------------------------
Correlation .67 .71
to crime (7)

The correlation between crime and weapons offense arrests is .67 for the raw statistics and .71 for the state rankings. These are both quite strong and highly significant correlations.

Of course, there is an obvious criticism to the above chart. It could simply prove that murderers have a penchant for handling their weapons illegally -- something we already knew.

However, this chart also shows that there is value to gun control laws, since the behavior and weaponry they regulate are correlated with higher murder rates. It also suggests that enforcing these laws more strictly would reduce the murder rate.

To see why, consider drunk driving laws. It doesn't matter whether drunk driving is legal or not - it is the behavior itself which is correlated with higher traffic fatalities. At first the U.S. did not regulate drunk drivers, and the result was a tragically high fatality rate. But eventually the nation passed DUI laws, and each time it has strengthened them, traffic fatalities have fallen. If we were to compare the states' statistics on DUI arrests and traffic fatalities, we would expect to find the states with the most DUI's experiencing the most fatalities. This would call for stricter passage and enforcement of DUI laws.
------------------------snip--------------------------------------------------
<http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-guncontrol.htm>

Here's another study with a .92 correlation

Dr. Ted Miller, National Public Services Research Institute examined the link between gun ownership rates and firearms death within Canadian provinces, the United States, England/Wales and Australia and concluded that 92% of the variance in death rates was explained by access to firearms in those areas. He suggested that a 1% increase (or decrease) in the percentage of households with guns in Canada would be associated with a 5.8% increase (or decrease) in the Canadian gun death rate.(T. Miller, M. Cohen. "Costs of Gunshot and Cut/Stab Wounds in the United States, with some Canadian Comparisons. " Accid Anal Prev 1997; 29 (3): 329-41.)
<http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/TheCaseForGunControl.html>

Here's another study with a.84 correlation

International Handgun Prevalence
and Murder Rates (1980)

An analysis of the 1980 International Crime Survey, by Martin Killias shows are is a very high (.84) correlation between the rates of handgun ownership and the rates of homicide.

As with any simple comparison of international data, thare are other factors which may influence the data. For this reason, the 13 nations were selected for their similar economies (developed/industrialized), politics (democratic) and cultures (Western).

-----------------------snip---------------------
<http://www.saneguns.org/crime/intl_murder_handgun.html>

[slackmaster]

152. Pure smoke

It turns out there is a quite strong correlation between the murder rate and the weapons offense arrest rate.

Do you think there might also be a strong correlation between murder rates and rates of arrests for assault?

:rofl:

[billbuckhead]

155. Criminals inside and outside of congress like how it is now

"And America is awash in handguns. Canada, for example, has almost as many guns per capita as the United States, but Americans own far more pistols. "Where do Canadian criminals, and Mexican criminals, get their handguns?" asks Hemenway. "From the United States." Gang members in Boston and New York get their handguns from other states with permissive gun laws; the firearms flow freely across state borders. Interstate 95, which runs from Florida to New England, even has a nickname among gun-runners: "the Iron Pipeline.""
------------------snip--------------------
"Virtually all industrialized nations have stronger firearms laws than the United States. We have no national law, for example, requiring a license to own a gun (though some states require one). Almost all other countries have li censure laws, and many demand that gun owners undergo training, also not required here. Hemenway scoffs at the rote objection, "A determined criminal will always get a gun," responding, "Yes, but a lot of people aren't that determined. I'm sure there are some determined yacht buyers out there, but when you raise the price high enough, a lot of them stop buying yachts."

In most of these United States, many types of gun sale trigger neither a background check nor a paper trail. "You can go to a gun show, flea market, the Internet, or classified ads and buy a gun—no questions asked," Hemenway says. It is illegal to sell a firearm to a convicted felon or for criminal purposes, although sting operations have proved that some licensed vendors flout even this proscription. "In 1998, police officers from Chicago (where possessing a new handgun is illegal) posed as local gang members and went firearms shopping in the suburbs," Hemenway writes. "In store after store, clerks willingly sold powerful handguns to these agents, who made it clear that they intended to use these guns to 'take care of business' on the streets of Chicago.""
-----------------snip---------------------
<http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090433.html>

Gun enthusiasts don't have as strong researcher as Hemenway. Just hacks from the AEI or some other rightwing stink tanks. Everyone knows what's out there, that's why the gun "enthusiast" side suppresses evidence of it so tenaciously.

[T Town Jake]

145. Nine posts in, and the childish assertions are just getting warmed up.

Nice.

[crankybubba]

8. I thought canada was already a paradise

with strict gun control. Thats what some on this board keep saying when comparing canada to the u.s. Why would you need complete handgun confiscation if so few deaths occured? where do you get the 90% figure. do you have anything to back it up or is it just conjecture.

[BurningDog]

25. Who cares if GUN deaths drop 90%

If total deaths still stay the same?

[applegrove]

30. That's the whole point. Guns are much more efficient at murders.

Much more efficient. Why if you take the guns out of the hands of criminals & communities - the major crimes go down. Fewer victims.

[crankybubba]

35. then why is scotland rated the most violent

by the u.n.??? no guns there but lots of violent crime???

[Jed Dilligan]

46. Swords

Never abandoned the sword and dirk culture.

[applegrove]

75. So apparently we are unsophisticated - because we insist on rule of

law. That's a nice twist.

Man I wish I could live in a city as sophisticated as Baltimore. What was the murder rate there this year? 600?

Gun violence is the leading cause of death amongst teenagers in the USA. Greater than all other types of accidental deaths combined. Now that is really sophisticated!

[Jed Dilligan]

77. I'm sorry

don't see how this responds to my post about sword crime in Scotland?

[applegrove]

84. Sorry. I missed your point. My bad!

[crankybubba]

85. way to go... pick baltimore as your example

hahahahahah maryland has strict gun control laws. and the last time I checked baltimore is in maryland. here is a sample

background checks at gun shows and private sales=yes
one handgun per month laws= yes
child access prevention law=yes
gun safety lock law=yes
waiting period on handguns=yes
must have permit to purchase handguns=yes
safety training required for handgun buyers=yes
saturday night special ban=yes

maryland recieves an a- from the brady center. tell me with all these laws why is the murder rate so high???

[applegrove]

87. Because like the judge said - a ban in a city doesn't work when

guns from georgia and florida make their way into the city. That is why you need to regulate the gun industry.

Here it is again - the explanation of the cycle of gun violence:

"SNIP....

According to a recent ATF study, just 1.2% of dealers accounted for over 57% of the crime guns traced to current dealers in 1998. … A congressional study of ATF data found that an extraordinary proportion of crime guns were purchased from the same”high crime” gun dealers. The same 137 dealers were the source of more than 34,000 crime guns between 1996 and 1998.

***

Defendants produce, market and distribute substantially more handguns than they reasonably expect to sell to law-abiding purchasers. They oversupply states with weak handgun controls and restrictions, such as certain southern states along the I-95 corridor, with substantially more handguns than they know or should know will be purchased by legitimate purchasers in those states.

***

Over 84% of the crime guns recovered in New York City come from out of state. Of these crime guns, the top source states were Virginia (414), Florida (329), Georgia (282), North Carolina (268), South Carolina (224), Pennsylvania (159), Ohio (136), Alabama (106) and Texas (99).

Handguns manufactured, imported or distributed by defendants are acquired in states and cities where gun regulations are lax, diverted to the illegal market in New York, and used to cause injury, death or the threat thereof to residents of the City of New York.

.... SNIP"

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=422

[crankybubba]

90. the key word here is ILLEGAL

It is already illegal to purchase a handgun from a dealer outside of you own state. If you live in maryland you cannot go to a gun store in virginia and purchase a handgun. likewise the people smuggling guns into canada cannot enter the u.s and purchase a handgun legally. all of this is already illegal. does passing more laws make it more illegal??? when it already is illegal.

[applegrove]

93. It is also illegal to march into the homes of the 80% of Americans

who are at Church on Sunday morning and steal their guns. But it is reality. Do you fight that reality or do you ignore it?

[crankybubba]

95. what does this post have to do with anything n/t

[applegrove]

102. You say the problem with guns is illegal use. So it cannot be regulated

against. My point is that it is reality that a certain percentage of unsecured guns or loosy goosy gun shops will have their guns end up in the hands of murderers. That is reality. So you do not legislate against this outcome?

I guess we could try going to those gun infested neighbourhoods and call the people with illegal guns "bad illegal gun users". That might work. :sarcasm:

[crankybubba]

103. point is you cite a city in a state

with strigent gun laws. does'nt help your case much. go ahead and see for yourself: http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=md

very similar to canada huh

[applegrove]

108. Go to the gun guys site. They point out very clearly what the judge

said. That when illegal guns are in huge supply in other states - a gun ban will be intefered with.

Again - the NRA's aim is to interfere. Just like they did with the gun registry in Canada.

[crankybubba]

110. do you refute the fact that maryland has strigent gun laws???

people using them and getting them illegally. let pass more laws and make it super duper illegal and that will stop them.<sarcasm> Ok have fun with that in canada let us know how it works out for ya.

[applegrove]

163. Guns have to have reasonable regulations across the country.

Like the judge says on Gun Guys, if there is a purposeful oversupply, what do you think would happen. Would be one thing if like corn, the government would dump excess guns made and sold by manufacturers into the sea (or whatever they do to excess corn). But that isn't going to happen.

Canada is protected a bit by the U.S. border. Maryland is tiny and a few hours drive from Gun happy states. If there were tracking of sold guns all over the country - a gun ban in Baltimore would work better. As unlawful sellers could be shut down. And sting operations to nab people buying guns to sell them illegally.

But NRA would scream at that.

No - Canada has huge provinces. I mean it takes 8 hours to drive across each one (at the very least). So it is feasable that handguns could be banned in one province (where it is an issue) and not in another.

Plus we have the border.

[applegrove]

159. So what we should just give up all form of governance and policing

because there is an over-supply in georgia & Florida? I don't see the mayors of San Fran, New York or Baltimore giving up the fight.

Are cities are not nearly so bad. We have a chance to nip this in the bud. So we grow great communities.

Relax - the success may spread (Canadian gun laws were actually succesful in stoping other types of gun violence). North America should be a safe place for kids to grow up in - before all else.

[billbuckhead]

61. But still less murder than the USA

It's the easy availability guns are the big problem because they multiply violence. An argument that without guns would be a fistfight turns into murder in the USA.

[applegrove]

74. Crime in scotland. But are the murders the highest? Again - an

economically stagnant part of the world. Why would the USA encourage the growth of such pockets in the USA?

[crankybubba]

76. are you saying perhaps other factors

than the avalibility of guns causes crime. I'm shocked according to some here it's the onl;y factor that matters.<sarcasm>

[applegrove]

86. You fight crime by making better communities. And non gun attacks

are less bold, and less lethal. Nobody said guns were the only issue. We also work hard at having really good public education, secondary education for the poor and health care.

We are working on everything else - why would we not work on the gun violence issue?

[crankybubba]

88. I don't disagree that gun violence is an issue

but where we differ is the banning of certain types of firearms. I pose that it will be inneffective since you have had heavy registration and a defacto ban on certain types for the better part of a decade and still have problems.

[applegrove]

89. Because your gun orgy makes it so that the supply is such that

guns easily and cheaply fall into the hands of criminals.

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=422

[crankybubba]

94. illegally.

It is illegal in all 50 states for a felon to possess a firearm. It is also illegal for them on the federal level for them to attempt to purchase one. What exactly will this ban to that the previous gun control efforts in canada have not accomplished in the past decade. just wait, after handguns semi auto hunting guns will be called assault weapons, bolt action rifles will be called sniper rifles, and hunting will be called a "cheesey hobby". I would like to take this oppertunity to thank the canadian govt for proposing this measure. It proves definiavely what the the people who support the 2nd amend have been saying about the anti gun people for years.

[applegrove]

104. Your cities of 3 Million have 600 gun murders. Ours have 50. That is

too much. Since over the course of 5 years - that would mean 300 gun muders from mostely a few communities. In case you didn't bother to do that math - in 5 years in one of your cities - 3000 people would be murdered.

Now look at the strict laws you put in place after 9/11. And the Billions spent on war?

I don't think a hand gun ban is draconian at all.

3000 people will die in the next 5 years. In every one of your big American cities.

[applegrove]

18. No - but they can now all easily be thrown in jail. Border security will

be tightened. Isn't that great? the long arm of the law actually reaching out and putting criminals in jail?

[applegrove]

17. Good one!

[applegrove]

13. Didn't you read - it is the illegal gun trade that is the issue. The flood

of guns in the U.S. and the stolen ones. If only there were really tight restrictions on selling guns in the USA (tracked) and in storing guns (iris scans - GPS info). But not. NRA will not work in that capatiy.

So their "lawfull" market turns into an "unlawfull" one and they claim innocence.

Well - we are not stupid. And despite Ted Nugents threat of attack - we are a little more concerned with our safe cities going down the tubes than the NRA is.

Nobody should be lost within the richest countries in the world. Not whole communities, not teenagers (emboldened by the handgun in their hot little hands and groupthink and drug cash). No, no, no - that is not okay.

[Squatch]

14. I think I speak for everybody when I say...

What in hell's creation are you talking about?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Squatch]

24. "Let law enforcement worry about the criminals." No thanks

Nashville, TN

Metro Police Sergeant Says He Unintentionally Shot Suspect

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[applegrove]

78. Yes - accidents happen. Let's get rid of policing alltogether because

99.99999% of the time police help victims rather than making people into victims.

Love that NRA math.

[applegrove]

15. Here is the illegal gun situation in the USA. What the NRA doesn't

want anything done about - this quote by the NY Judge:


"SNIP....

According to a recent ATF study, just 1.2% of dealers accounted for over 57% of the crime guns traced to current dealers in 1998. … A congressional study of ATF data found that an extraordinary proportion of crime guns were purchased from the same”high crime” gun dealers. The same 137 dealers were the source of more than 34,000 crime guns between 1996 and 1998.

***

Defendants produce, market and distribute substantially more handguns than they reasonably expect to sell to law-abiding purchasers. They oversupply states with weak handgun controls and restrictions, such as certain southern states along the I-95 corridor, with substantially more handguns than they know or should know will be purchased by legitimate purchasers in those states.

***

Over 84% of the crime guns recovered in New York City come from out of state. Of these crime guns, the top source states were Virginia (414), Florida (329), Georgia (282), North Carolina (268), South Carolina (224), Pennsylvania (159), Ohio (136), Alabama (106) and Texas (99).

Handguns manufactured, imported or distributed by defendants are acquired in states and cities where gun regulations are lax, diverted to the illegal market in New York, and used to cause injury, death or the threat thereof to residents of the City of New York.

.... SNIP"

Here is the link to original article. http://www.gunguys.com/?p=422

[Squatch]

16. What does any of this have to do with Canada?

[applegrove]

19. Half our guns our imported illegally. Half the guns used in crime. The

half of the remaining half are lawful guns that have been stolen from their owners within Canada.

If only the NRA would allow some control over the gun trade. And work with government to ensure strict standards of ownership and safe storage. But they will not.

So we have to do it on our own.

What does the fact that the USA has no control over its guns have to do with Canada? Where do you think many of those murder weapons come from?

[crankybubba]

21. do you have ANY facts not from the vpc or its

splinter groups to back your assertions.

[applegrove]

26. Here is where it goes into the numbers of illegal guns:

PM vows `total' handgun ban
Liberals to talk tough on issue of urban crime; border measures also expected in campaign pledge to be announced today
Dec. 8, 2005. 04:23 AM
SUSAN DELACOURT AND GRAHAM FRASER
OTTAWA BUREAU


" Prime Minister Paul Martin is set to propose what Liberals are billing as a "total ban" on handguns today, in an election-campaign bid to show his party talking tough on gun crime, especially in Toronto.

....SNIP



Of the 75 homicides in Toronto this year, 50 have been committed with handguns. Police estimate half have been committed with handguns illegally smuggled into Canada, and a good portion of the others were committed with stolen weapons.

Gun-control advocates have said that any clampdown on handguns, then, must also deal with border-tightening measures and gun theft, not simply extended bans. With Martin heading to the border city of Windsor tomorrow, where crimes involving firearms are also a major concern, it's largely expected that his anti-gun platform will contain some measures to address the smuggling problem as well.

Handguns are already largely prohibited in Canada, in the wake of a law that came into effect in 1998, banning all .22- and .32-calibre handguns with a barrel length less than 105 millimetres. But there were big exceptions — collectors, sports shooters and many previous owners were allowed to hang on to their handguns. There are currently estimated to be about 300,000 weapons in Canada.

.... SNIP"


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1133995815725&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&pubid=968163964505

[crankybubba]

23. SO the answer is to ban

the legally owned handguns. The illegal guns will still exist as criminals will simply ignore the law.

[applegrove]

27. The point is to make the supply such that it is harder for illegal guns

to get in the hands of murderers.

[crankybubba]

31. bur will it really..

right now in both the u.s. and canada it is illegal for ciminals to possess firearms. How will the mere passage of a law change the fact that people will still smuggle firearms and continue to obtain them illegally. Canada has had severe gun control on handguns for a number of years as you are aware. Are they admitting that it has been largely ineffective and must now strive for further, more draconican maeasures? Using the u.s. as an excuse for thier gun control measures is largely a straw man argument. You say in your own post that police "estimate" the number of guns smuggles from the u.s. Could it be that they have NO solid figures and will go with ther whim to ban hanguns.

[applegrove]

33. By making it harder to get an illegal gun (either way) and by putting

illegal gun owners in jail for longer periods of time...

[crankybubba]

20. It does'nt.....

he's talking about the u.s. because the anti gun site only have info and stats that address the u.s. gun situation. Unless canda recently became a state and no one told me.

[applegrove]

28. No - I mention the Judges words because you have the same problem

and yet you pretend you do not.

[billbuckhead]

29. USA has multiples more murders than rest of advanced nations

Canada is to be congratulated for caring about all it's citizens and not just those wealthy enough to hide behind bulletproof glass and bodyguards. It just kills these gun "enthusiasts" that all these freedom loving nations like Canada and Australia don't kneel before guns and yet have way less murder than the USA.

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap>

[crankybubba]

34. You show your true aganda bill....

You have touted canada MANY times as a gun control paradise. yet you applaud the mention of a total handgun ban. did canada not go far enough the first time for you?? Apparently not. <sarcasm>

[billbuckhead]

55. If Canadians want stronger gun regs, so be it

Why are you always trying to stand in the way of democracy? Is that your agenda.

[crankybubba]

62. comedy gold bill

ad hominem attack. If you read any of my posts I stated I don't really care what canada does. just an interesting discussion. YOU are the one who wishes to stand in the way of democracy. Almost all the polls here oppose more gun regulation yet you push your agenda against what the MAJORITY wishes.
makes me wonder about you bill....

[applegrove]

73. A terrified community in any city is not acceptable to us. To you - it is

the norm. Many countries in the world think that the rule of law should rule EVERYWHERE!

[billbuckhead]

130. The America gun lobby thrives on terror. Makes sales go up

This whole gun squabble in America isn't really about freedom, it's about neoCON's raising money and using gun rights as a dog whistle to racists.

[jim3775]

36. Martin's plan isn't just banning handguns

I listened to his speech this is his plan:

1. Ban handguns

2. Double the sentences for people who commit gun crime

3. Encourage full compliance with the gun registry for people who own hunting guns by waiving the fee to re-register

4. Sponsor a $50 million community action plan to combat gun violence within communities

5. Create a special unit of the RCMP consisting of 250 special officers who will work in communities to stop the spread of illegal guns. Also, there will be a new special border security force to stop smuggling.

[crankybubba]

38. I could support all of that except #1 n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Those durn Canucks. They're just showing off how civilized they are.

Compared to our .45 caliber dispute resolution here in the bastion of redneckism.

[crankybubba]

39. nah they just bash baby seals with clubs

to release thier frustrations. <sarcasm off>

[Spazito]

41. LOL, whereas the U.S. tortures innocent people, sometimes to

death. But, by all means, try again. Why does it bother you what Canada does regarding guns? Does it jeopardize the illegal gun trade in the U.S.? If so, is that a problem?

[crankybubba]

43. don't really care what canada does

it's just an interesting discussion. lets you know how dishonest the gun control people really are

[Spazito]

45. Dishonest? How does the seal hunt equate to 'dishonest' gun

control' people? One could almost think the 'seal hunt' post was thrown in as part of a 'straw-man' argument, eh, lol.

[crankybubba]

48. I goes to people why make straw arguments by bringing up

the u.s. in a discussion about canada. It goes to show canada is not the Bastion of virtue that some make it out to be. It is no better than the u.s.

[Spazito]

50. With regard to death by guns, Canada sure is better

and that, after all, is the debate on gun control and/or gun bans. It is U.S. guns crossing the border that are the problem so bringing the U.S. into the discussion is pertinent whereas the seal hunt has no relevance to the debate.

Watch Bowling for Columbine and you will see that Canadians have guns, there is NO overall firearms ban yet the numbers of deaths by guns is minuscule in comparison to the U.S. Why do you think that is?

[crankybubba]

52. then why do you need more gun control?

The seal hunt does have relavance it shows societal violence in canada that is accepted and condoned against defensless animals. Blaming the u.s. for canada's gun problems is convient but there have been NO hard stats showing how many guns come from the u.s. into canada. just law enforcement "estimates" which have no real empirical facts to back them up. Do you trust everything the govt tells you???? or just what you want to hear. Is'nt it already illegal to bring a handgun into canada?? Will passing another law stop canadians from smuggling guns into canada from the u.s. illegally??? Has it worked so far???

[Spazito]

54. Yes, banning hand guns in concert with the other policies listed

in a previous post will, indeed, reduce further the gun violence and the smuggling of guns into Canada from the U.S. What is the problem with putting policies to further reduce the incidents of gun violence? Is there a level one should accept for gun violence and not do anything to try and reduce it further? LOL re trusting government, unlike the U.S. media and government collusion, we still have a media that actually reports facts even if they aren't favourable to our government.

Link to a good article about guns/border smuggling:

American guns, Canadian violence

Weapons are crossing the border by the thousands and the number of people wounded and killed in this country is mounting

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/canada/article.jsp?content=20050815_110483_110483

[crankybubba]

57. who is doing the smuggling???

candaians...got the guns in detroit. Detroit has strong gun control too... could it be an illegal enterprise has No respect for the law. The article still has NO numbers other than conjecture for how many guns are smuggled. "we still have a media that actually reports facts even if they aren't favourable to our government." If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.

[billbuckhead]

58. If Detroit had strong gun laws, smugglers couldn't buy them

Michigan only has strong gun regs compared to most of the rest of America, not compared to advanced nations.

[crankybubba]

63. complete b.s. bill n/t

[Spazito]

59. LOL, hey we didn't buy your phony war, I don't think we would fall

for a phony bridge. It seems the Canadian public doesn't fall for phony crap as easily as some in the U.S. did and still do. I would put our media up against the U.S. media for factual reporting any day, any time. I gather you don't believe the guns are coming from the U.S? Yet you agree they are coming from Detroit which, last time I checked, is in the U.S.

[crankybubba]

64. infering facts not in evidence.

never said I don't believe guns come from the u.s. you just can't tell me how many.... why is that.

[Spazito]

65. Ummm, is there a number of smuggled guns that would be

acceptable to you or is even one too many? Love the request for hard numbers like it really matters, lol. We know, via the article and from the words of the smuggler in the article that more than one was smuggled in but that's okay with you because you aren't provided with HARD numbers?


:rofl:

[crankybubba]

67. no real facts so go for the person attack...

standard operating percedure huh. You made the assertation I just want to know exactly How many. Back up your statement. VERY reasonable request.You don't have any numbers is why you wont post them. Go ahead and ban handguns in canada. get back to me in a couple of years when you still don't feel safe and want to ban hunting rifles to feel safer.I'll still be chuckling.

[Spazito]

70. Wow, pointing out the fallacy of the request for hard numbers is

a personal attack? Hmmmm and lol! I have no problem with hunting rifles, they are used legitimately and registered for such. Comparing hand guns and hunting rifles as the same is laughable. I stated the guns were being smuggled into Canada from the U.S. and DID back it up with a link to an article containing the first-person account of a smuggler. The question I asked you has gone unanswered so I repeat:

Is there a number statistically that you need to be able to decide whether guns are being smuggled from the U.S. or is even one gun being smuggled enough to take action to stop it?

[crankybubba]

72. give me ONE ligitimate non biasied source

that has stats on guns smuggled into canada. No hunting guns will be next after handguns. You don't NEED to hunt, It's a dangerous "Sniper" weapon. It's all already been said before by the dishonest gun control lobby. You just fall for it hook line and sinker.


and exactly how is requesting you to back up your asseratation a fallacy??? A news story is anecdotal at best. surely with all the gun criminals being apprehended in canada ther would be some number as to where those guns came from.

[Spazito]

79. I never asserted I had a specific number with which I was basing

my contention that the guns were being smuggled from the U.S. Instead, I provided you with a first-hand account from a smuggler who was only caught on their third attempt to smuggle. Direct quotes from a convicted smuggler is hardly anecdotal, rofl.

Again, please refer to the question I have posited twice now re what number is sufficient for you or is even one gun enough to prove my assertion that guns are being smuggled into Canada from the U.S.

[crankybubba]

96. all i'm asking for is SOME documentation

of what you assert. Guns are supposedly flooding over the border into canada. I just want to know how many. whats so hard about that.

[applegrove]

91. Now news stories are "annecdotal". How quaint. 50% of the guns

used in these murders come from illegal trade outside the country. That means half. A good portion of those are from the USA.

Get over it. There is an oversupply even within the USA. It causes the same problems in your cities. We just have the ability to do something about the oversupply (which is due to specific sellers who should have their licenses to sell revoked.

http://www.gunguys.com/?p=422

[crankybubba]

97. I will take you lack of a response

as that you have no response and move on. the article says 50% but where did that figure come from?????

[Spazito]

105. ROFLMAO! Will take your concession as offered

and your non-response to my repeated question as an acknowledgment that you cannot answer it. \

Thanks for the debate, it has been entertaining, to say the least, lol.

[applegrove]

92. So the DEA should stop interfearing in the growth of drugs in Afghanistan

& Columbia? That doesn't work. The problem is the growers of the cocaine. And the dealers. And the smugglers. And the users.

You go after them all.

If you want safe cities and vibrant communities. If you do not want that because somehow crime fulfills a need of a particular political party or fulfill the needs of the "no tax" movement - well just say it would ya. Save us all some time.

Say it. You don't care what happens to the communities in your country and you do not think that people of the USA, as a whole, should have to work together to fix the issue.

[applegrove]

81. Seal hunt - whether you like it or not - involves killing animals. Ever

seen a cow as they smell the blood while they enter the slaughterhouse. Strawman.

[billbuckhead]

60. Yeah, that dishonest Al Gore and John Kerry

And all those honest NRA board memebers like Grover Norquist and Ted Nugent.

[crankybubba]

66. does this sound honest to you bill????

"I do not believe in extremism; I don't believe that we should arm every man, woman and child including felons and fugitives in this United States. No, I do not, then again I do not believe we should ban handguns or hunting weapons either. I think that there are extremists on both sides." sarah brady

while they now applaud and jump for joy at these measures in canada as you do bill. many many time we have heard "we only want registration not confiscation" from the like of sarah brady and yourself now we are seeing the true agenda banning and confiscation. but the end justfies the means does'nt it bill.. I mean lying and distorting to feel safer is ok is'nt it.

[billbuckhead]

80. Neither Sarah Brady or I are Canadians

We're just cheering on Canadian democracy. Got something against democracy and low murder rates?

[crankybubba]

98. where you got that is beyone me bill..

keep em coming you are making me laugh.

[billbuckhead]

115. Got something against democracy and low murder rates?

You always seem to be rooting against them.

[crankybubba]

119. i'm not the one want to regulate a persons freedom

you are. Remember you were against a picture of a gun in a poster. 1st amend, 2nd amend. would you like to take a crack at dismantling the 4th now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=115894&mesg_id=115894
and remember this gem:

" I don't believe statistics can prove or disprove anything" (billbuckhead)

Bill you post really seps in it now. I root for low crime rates because is makes my job MUCH easier. Boy you REALLY don'y know me do you. LOL

you are a hoot bill.

[billbuckhead]

147. It's hard to be free when you're dead from a bullet

Most of the world consider's Canada to be freer and safer than America. The big difference is easy sleazy availablity of guns in America.

[crankybubba]

148. nice hyperbole bill

means nothing though..how many time have you been dead by a bullet? none i'll wager. If canada is sooo much freer and safer than here why the effort to ban handguns now after tight regulation for 70+ years. why not use tose resources for education,the fight against poverty,and other worthwhile programs. rather than this cheezey hobby of trying to ban guns and make people "feel" safer when in fact they are not.

[billbuckhead]

149. Canadians obviously want to do even better

American's are just happy to beat third world countries. Gun violence cost's the USA over $100 billion a year according to the Brookings Institute, so reducing gun violence reduces societal costs. Maybe that has something do with or it could be that they actually do value life over the border.

[crankybubba]

151. deal with education,poverty,racism,and drugs

in the cities and guns will not be a problem.

[billbuckhead]

153. Isn't it interesting that nations that deal best with social problems

also all tend to have the strongest gun regulations. The more sink or swim type of governments (read:neoCONS) even want to do away with police and use citizens all carrying guns instead. Remember Grover Norquist a NRA board member and corrupt lobbyist said he wanted to shrink the government until it was small enough to drown in a bathtub?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. I guess the baby seals would have a better chance facing handguns.

[crankybubba]

49. Yeah the clubs and beating them to death is MUCH more

civilized.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Maybe "sportsmen" should take up clubbing Grizzly bears.

If clubbing is more efficient than guns, why not have the gunnuts exchange their beloved shootin' arns for Louisville sluggers?

[crankybubba]

53. read again

never said more efficient. spotting sarcasm must not be your strong point.

[Jed Dilligan]

47. The only important factor is whether police are armed or not

England armed its police after 9/11 and gun killings have skyrocketed, including the first murder of a "girl bobbie" (policewoman) in England recently. I was in Scotland recently and everyone there remarked that the gangsters in England armed themselves as soon as the cops did. In Scotland the police, as far as I know, are still unarmed--and death is still by knife and sword, for what that's worth (less danger to neighbors for one thing).

[Fescue4u]

68. 1st registration. 2nd confiscation

Its that simple, and its why registration should always be opposed.

[crankybubba]

69. yep but

there are people here who will deny that until the end of time.

[billbuckhead]

82. Yeah, think of all the cars being confiscated

Actually first come registration and then insurance and taxation.

[crankybubba]

101. but you yourself say that to compare cars and guns

is nonsense because one is de3signed to kill people according to you. which is it???

[billbuckhead]

112. Cars and guns are easily compared but guns are killing machines

Guns are designed to kill and cars are designed for transportation. Anything dangerous and involving costs to society should be registered, insured and taxed appropriately. Think about the fact that guns kill almost as many people as cars but are used by a small minority on any given day.

BTW, why such interest in Canadian law and politics? Is it fear that they will prove Americans are foolish for their gun worship?

[crankybubba]

122. interesting topic. why such interest

on your part bill. not being canadian and all.


btw post 357 just for you bill....(;))

[billbuckhead]

158. Canada is a next door neighbor test bed for progressive democracy

Decriminalize drugs, legalize gay marriage and crack down on handguns. How advanced.

[applegrove]

83. 3rd. Cities of 3 Million that are safe for all communities. And everyone

has a chance at working there way into the middle class. Shame on us!

[derby378]

100. Canada, get over yourselves...

You do not know handgun crime like we know handgun crime. And even with our crime rates, only San Francisco is outlawing handgun possession.

I know a few other communities here have done likewise, but that's the only city I know of in this political cycle introducing new legislation of this kind.

[applegrove]

106. What we are getting over - is not letting our cities fall to bits. That

isn't something we need to get over. That cycle is something that we should all fight together. Every generation. So it ends.

[Spazito]

107. LOL, keep your guns on your side of the border and no more comments

would need to be made. Maybe the fact that no cities are banning hand guns is the reason gun violence is so high in the U.S.? Nah, that couldn't be!

[applegrove]

109. Hey - other gun violence haters... "I think we're alone now". The NRA

must have called a meeting. Or called them off since they haven't quite figured out what the responce & talking points will be.

I'm sure they will return.

[crankybubba]

111. from the frasier institute

'Canada

The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic. Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted. The homicide rate is dropping faster in the US than in Canada.

The Canadian experiment with firearm registration is becoming a farce says Mauser. The effort to register all firearms, which was originally claimed to cost only $2 million, has now been estimated by the Auditor General to top $1 billion. The final costs are unknown but, if the costs of enforcement are included, the total could easily reach $3 billion.

“It is an illusion that gun bans protect the public. No law, no matter how restrictive, can protect us from people who decide to commit violent crimes. Maybe we should crack down on criminals rather than hunters and target shooters?” says Mauser.

[Spazito]

113. Ummmm, you obviously don't know who or what the Frazier Institute is

or you would be embarassed at even thinking as quoting them as an 'unbiased source'. I have to assume you believe only in unbiased sources as you have stated them as critical to your belief structure.

Edited to correct spelling error

Edited to add info on the Frazier Institute:

The Frazier Institute is a radical right-wing alternative to the Fraser Institute, Canada's purportedly free-market think-tank. The Frazier Institute was founded by a group of uncompromising free-market analysts who became dissatisfied with the wishy-washy moderation and the compromises of fundamental free-market principles engaged in by think-tanks such as the Fraser Institute in their search for popularity and their kow-towing to the liberal media.

ROFLMAO, unbiased, indeed!

[crankybubba]

116. just like the gun guys site

just when did I say it was "critical" to my beliefs??? Of course you are going to say anything that does'nt agree with your position is biased.

[Spazito]

120. LOL, in a previous post when I gave a link to a respected news

agency, you didn't accept it and requested an 'unbiased' resource so I just naturally assumed you would use unbiased sources to coincide with your request of others. I see I am badly mistaken in my assumption, forgive me, lol.

[crankybubba]

127. personal attacks...

just face the fact you cannot provide a number of guns smuggled into canada. period. is it 1,10, 50,1,000,000. kind of makes a difference as to how big the problem is. We need to know the extent of the problem to worke together as you say and solve it don't we???

[Spazito]

131. LOL, how is pointing out the lack of an 'unbiased source' in your

post considered a 'personal attack'? By that contention, all posts pointing out inaccuracies, inconsistencies, fallacies would be classified as personal attacks which is not the case, thank goodness.

Again, I never quoted specific numbers but, instead, gave a link to the direct quotes from a convicted gun smuggler, caught on his THIRD trip to smuggle guns from the U.S. into Canada therefore proving, with a specific link, the contention I DID make that guns were being smuggled from the U.S. into Canada. Now, back to my oft repeated question to you, as yet unanswered, is one gun smuggled too many or is there a specific number that must be met before gun smuggling should be acted on?

[Swede]

118. Uhm,the Fraser Institute is a rightwingnut organization.

Completely useless to use as source in an argument.

[crankybubba]

121. are they not a canadian org???

[Spazito]

125. Yep, but the point was about unbiased sources not whether the

source was Canadian, another straw man diversion, nice try though, lol. I am enjoying this immensely, are you?

[crankybubba]

128. yes i am enjoying it.

(;))

[crankybubba]

132. houw about this. or it is biased too

Rather than reduce crime, these approaches have in fact exacerbated the problem," said Colleen Minnabarriet, vice-president of the advocacy group for females in conflict with the law.

"This approach has failed and, paradoxically, has resulted in unsafe communities and increased violence."

Dismal results have prompted even conservative jurisdictions such as Michigan and Australia's Northern Territories to back away, Minnabarriet said.

Tony Doob, a professor of criminology at the University of Toronto, called mandatory minimums for gun crimes an "insult" to judges, who are already legally bound to tailor punishments to fit the crime.

"Study after study shows these things have zero impact on crime (but) everybody's looking for a quick fix," said Doob, who added that he's most troubled by politicians who are pretending to make Canada's streets safer.

"They're trying to deceive the public into thinking that they've done something effective," he said. "It's just simple dishonesty."


http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=3ab1e906-2e1d-4e4b-8255-324b5399063f

[Spazito]

138. It is a credible source, no disagreement there

What it points out is a difference of opinion on manditory minimum for gun crimes, nothing about the whole question of hand gun bans, strengthening of border controls, etc, so I am at a bit of a loss how this article relates to the debate at hand but will play along by pulling this from the same article:

"This week, in a charge led by Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant, provincial justice ministers who were meeting in Whitehorse managed to persuade federal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler to impose mandatory minimum sentences for more firearms offences.

"If you know you're going to go to jail and you're going to go to jail for a significant period of time, maybe you won't participate in that gun trade, maybe you won't get into that car with that weapon," Bryant said in making his case."

Edited to add to up the ante, as it were, lol:

"But Wendy Cukier, co-founder of the Coalition for Gun Control said existing laws limiting the availability of handguns and the use of rifles and shotguns have been effective.

"Five hundred fewer people are killed with guns today than 16 years ago," Cukier said Thursday on CTV's Canada AM. "There's no question that stronger gun laws in Canada have made a big difference. In spite of the surge in Toronto over the last year, gun murders are the lowest in 30 years. ... Murders of women with guns are down 66 per cent."

"So it's really misleading to suggest we're not getting anything for the investment in gun control."



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051207/elxn_martin_handguns_051208/20051208?s_name=election2006

[crankybubba]

139. tough gun crime sentances

I would support that 100% It also says handguns have been tightly regulated in canada since the 1930's(another article about the proposed ban)so after 70 years gun control on handguns has'nt worked..so we need more gun control. confusing

http://www.canada.com/national/features/decisioncanada/story_05.html?id=b9d0e843-80a0-4fb7-9e18-95304ee2ba97

edited for link to article

[Spazito]

141. Yes, it can be. Our media does give both sides of the issue

which I appreciate, it helps me make a more informed decision on issues like this. Hand guns have been very restricted in Canada but, because of the smuggling of hand guns from the U.S. into Canada, gang violence using hand guns has increased while all other incidences of gun violence has gone down. Canada does not have a 2nd amendment by which NRA types in Canada can hang their hat on nor are Canadians, for the most part, to be affected adversely by a hand gun ban as opposed to being severely restricted yet it may, in concert with the other policy changes being proposed, reduce the hand guns involved in the current violence.

[crankybubba]

142. overall murder rates in the u.s. are down too

I don't think gun control is the main factor here. look at the perennial winners in the most dangerous cities in the u.s. washington d.c. detroit and baltimore. these cities have very strict gun control even a strict ban on handguns in d.c since the 1970's. Yet they are always at the top of most violent cities. why you ask...what do they have in common?? a large disenfranchised and poverty stricken class of poor people. I would pose to you that a greater correlation can be made between poverty and violence than guns and violence.

[Spazito]

146. There is no question that simply banning hand guns isn't the answer

they are a symptom of a greater problem for sure, illegal drugs being a big part of it as well as poverty. My point is simply that banning the hand guns may not make it better but it sure isn't going to make the gun violence worse and there is the potential that banning them ALONG with other policy initiatives including those that address the underlaying causes will improve the situation so I support the initiatives announced by the Liberals on this issue.

[Spazito]

133. LOL, then we DO agree on something!

:D

[crankybubba]

135. basically

we can go around around. saying the others sources are biased. it's an endless loop. we wont agree in the end. But I believe there is some common ground that can be reached.

[applegrove]

160. Fraser institute has gone down hill much faster than any other entitiy.

Neocons got ahold of it. And it stopped doing real studies and started studying on the wedge points neocons worked out by the mid 1970s.

[applegrove]

161. More like a parrot cage than an institute. But then you in the USA have

a whole pile of phoney institutes put in place to give "import" to crappy and mean ideas that go against the tenants of Jesus Christ (or pretty much any other monotheistic or polytheistic or actually most animism is more profound than what comes out of neocon "think tanks").

[Endangered Specie]

114. If I were in Canada Id seriously question voting liberal.

[billbuckhead]

117. Thomas Sowell from the HOOVER institute?

Isn't Thomas Sowell a fascist?
<http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/sowell.html>

[Endangered Specie]

124. yeah,

the point of the quote is to say that, even nutcases like HIM understand how wars are really fought, suggesting how those who start unjust wars are even lower on my totem pole.



Ive been known to quote people of disputable character (including Stalin's "one man tragedy, million men statistic" and Goebbels "of course the people don't war".), just because of the shear irony and somewhat sad truth to it.

[hopeisaplace]

126. Perfect. I love it. I'm voting Liberal anyway of course,

this is just icing on the cake.
I hope he does it.
I HATE GUNS.

[sam sarrha]

129. how will we protect ourselves when the Bird Flu hits and gangs loot

for food, cops will be sick too, the government will collapse. worse than Kitrana we will be on our own for at least 16 months, and the recovery will take decades. do you know where a well with a manual pump is for water, food will be gone from stores in a week and there will be no trucks running.. they will be looted if you can find a driver not sick or willing to be on the road and get sick..

this is big serious shit..

[jim3775]

136. Did you copy&paste that from a Y2K preparedness web site...

and switch around some of the words?

[sam sarrha]

150. Y2K didnt kill over 50% of its victoms in June...

[jim3775]

137. I hope martin wins and passes the ban

So I can watch the gun nuts flip out.

[Spazito]

140. LOL, not to mention how Harper is going to walk the 'fine' line

here because he desperately needs votes in Ontario, especially from the Toronto and surrounding area which is where the major area of hand gun violence is focused right now. The guy who would not say he loved Canada, apologized to bush for Canada not joining his phony war will now have to straddle the line on guns and violence.

[hopeisaplace]

157. love it

:rofl: :rofl:

[Err]

144. I'm against this.

Of course, I don't live in Canada.

[Cleita]

154. Ordinarily, I would agree, but

I think Canadians should stay armed. Their neighbors south of them aren't very stable these days.

[Lisa]

156. don't worry. We're well-supplied with Inuit soapstone carvings...

http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/minifie.html

No kidding. When our previous Prime Minister heard an intruder breaking into his official residence, he picked up a handy piece of sculpture (not like Nancy Reagan's bedside gun!).

[joegodfather88]

162. LOTS of discussion, guess I'll talk too

Canada already has, if I remember correctly, pretty harsh standards on weapon ownership, the permits required, and where/when you can use them. I'd say a good portion of the weapons in Canada are used for hunting only, or are used by law enforcement. So this may be kind of frivolous, considering their gun crime is ridiculously low compared to the United States, but whatever they think will make their country safer is all good.