RE:Rigoberto Alpizar, Was The Shooting Justified Or Was It Over Agressive?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

I'm a little confused tonight. After gathering as many facts about this story as possible it is my opinion of common sense that given the circumstances the air marshals were 100% appropriate in their actions. That is my opinion and I doubt anything could change my mind. I was confused, however, to see how many posts there are acting like these air marshals were evil, when they are there to protect us and did their jobs correctly. And Yes, I feel horribly for the man and wish it had turned out differently.

Ok, agree with me or not, I'm curious to see how the DU community is split on this issue. Please vote.

[wtbymark]

1. They should have listened to his wife

tackled him while he was still on the plane and gave him his damn meds

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. See, That's Where I'm Lost. How Can That Possibly Be Used In Your Defense?

To me, that alone confirms that he was potentially unstable, irrational and dangerous, giving the marshals that much more reason to be on edge.

[merci_me]

8. Why should they trust what his wife is saying?

This happened quickly. They didn't have the leisure of discussing this with her.

And remember the terrorists bombers in Jordon last month? There was a wife along, also rigged with explosives.

I'm sorry it happened, however, just because he was "bipolar" doesn't mean he couldn't have had a bomb with him. In fact, a lot of people who perform dangerous acts are mentally ill. What do you think, most people who do things along these lines are 100% sane?

[Birthmark]

3. Justified.

We should be slow to second-guess in these situations. It sounds to me like the martials used sound judgement, in accordance with their training. It's sad that Alpizar was killed, but it was probably unavoidable under the circumstances.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. Very Well Said, And Thank You.

[Quixote1818]

5. I agree, they said he was reaching for his backpack

If it were me and I was trained to shoot when someone started reaching for something where a gun or explosive device could be I would most definitely have to shoot. What if there really had been a bomb and he didn't shoot?

[Catchawave]

29. thank you.....

Needless to say, these DU "conspiracy threads" have been unnerving to this air marshall mom, who posted to another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5543248&mesg_id=5555009

Thick skin and all :(

[seabeyond]

6. the reason i vote unjustified. they had the wife, she was talking

that should have given them pause. it was a life. they had soemone who knew him. knew the situation and they ignored their opportunity

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. What The Hell Does the Wife Talking Have To Do With His Non-Compliance and

Reaching into the bag? I mean, is that how easy we're gonna make it for terrorists now? "Hey, you stand up and make a distraction, then I'll claim you need your insulin. Then #3 will stand up and take the air marshals gun..."

I'm sorry Rigoberto Alpizar, I wish it turned out differently. Air marshals? Thanks for doing your job.

[Quixote1818]

10. Well put. The lesson here is to not say you have a bomb and run

and certainly don't reach for your bag that you are claiming has a bomb in it. He may have had a suicide wish and was on the down side of his bi-polar cycle.

[Thorandmjolnir]

27. Does that apply everywhere or just in airports.

How about at a football game. Can the cops shoot a guy for reaching into his bag? Even if someone yells that he is on medication.

Are we to allow shoot first ask later in all circumstances, and if no, why not?

Why limit it to airports?

[leftstreet]

11. Why would a marshal think a bomb got past screeners?

In a backpack no less.

:eyes:

Maybe a few years ago, but not now. Assuming this guy really did claim to have a bomb, it's too bad the marshals didn't say, "oh yeah? show me."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Oh Yeah, Now There'sssssss A Logical Argument

That's actually the most ridiculous thing I've probably heard yet.

:eyes:

[Quixote1818]

13. All kinds of stuff gets past the screeners

not to mention, bombs are made of all kinds of things now including plastic. A few years ago a kid got past the screeners with all kinds of knives and hid them in the bathroom. He told the news about what he did. I wouldn't be banking on the ability's of the screeners who get paid squat.

[Pete_InSoCal]

23. They weren't screeners, they were Customs agents

The last place he was screened by screeners was in Ecuador. He de-planed from that flight, went through Customs and boarded the flight to Orlando. Last time I went through customs, they looked inside my carry-on bag. This reminds me of the bobbies in London shooting the Brazilian electrician to death point blank, simply because he ran onto the train carrying a backpack.

[Speed8098]

24. Last time I went through customs, they looked inside my carry-on bag.

Same here.

Every time I go through customs I'm asked to open my carry on. I'm sure this gentleman was asked to do the same thing.

[Thorandmjolnir]

28. Please, get your facts straight

The guy was boarding the plane in Miami. He was in transit. He had been through screening. (You have to go through security when you come from an International flight and get on a domestic flight.)

[Silverhair]

14. Oh, Yeah? Show me. BOOM !!! NT

[Silverhair]

15. The screeners are booooorreeed.

You have been on the job for a couple of years. Nothing has happened. You don't even know anybody that anything has happened to. You get lax. It is human nature.

Plus, a bomb smuggler has plenty of time, lots of it, to learn the routine and the equipment and figure out a way around it.

[seabeyond]

17. a cops job goes beyond shoot and kill. that is why they get the

big bucks. sarcasm. they deal in crisis situation, they have to simulate information quickly. i didnt say it was an easy job. but this was an instance when there was a rational person that could provide them information.

i am not pointing the finger at anyone. this man yelled bomb on a plane. mentally ill or not, you cant yell bomb without repercussion. i am not here blaming. the reason i even put an explanation after voting (which i dont generally do) is justified/not.... i wasnt seeing it as blame. i was seeing was it necessary. but was it needed to be handled in that manner. i still think maybe not. i dont know. limited information. but..... i think a wife saying, he doesnt have a bomb, he doesnt have a bomb he is mentally ill. didnt take meds,..... would give an officer pause

[High Plains]

20. Whether the guy said anything at all about a bomb seems...

debatable at this point.

We have the feds saying he said it, but no passengers. In fact, there are at least two passengers who said they heard no such thing. What's up with that?

[Demoiselle]

9. This is such an awful tragedy. I can't make a judgement.

No, make that I don't WANT to make a judgement. I got teary eyed watching this news today.

[Igel]

16. If as reported, justified.

Sad, though.

"According to a witness, the passenger ran down the aisle of the Boeing 757, flailing his arms, while his wife tried to explain that he was mentally ill and had not taken his medication.

"The passenger, identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, indicated there was a bomb in his bag and was confronted by air marshals but ran off the aircraft, Doyle said. The marshals went after him and ordered him to get down on the ground, but he did not comply and was shot when he apparently reached into the bag, Doyle said." http://www.katu.com/stories/81627.html

So he said something stupid on the plane--mention of a bomb is no joking matter to airport security--and they confronted him on the plane. His response was to run off. Then they ordered him down, and he didn't--instead he reached into the bag. (With the usual caveat that having no witnesses is frequently almost as bad as having eye witnesses.)

In hindsight, they should have listened to his wife. But the air marshals didn't have the gift of prescience.

[Pete_InSoCal]

18. Witnesses never heard the word "Bomb"!

Notice how the gov't isn't coming out directly and saying that he said the B-word. They are inferring that he had a bomb. The early reports that he mentioned a bomb while running down the aisle of the plane was bogus spin-control.

From AP:
Passenger John Mcalhany told The Associated Press on Thursday that Alpizar bumped into him as he ran off the aircraft, and he did not hear him say anything about a bomb.

"The first time I heard the word bomb was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."

"This was wrong," McAlhany added. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."

Mary Gardner, another passenger, also said Thursday she did not hear Alpizar mention a bomb.


I would think that any intelligent officer would realize that they were in a "clean-zone", an area where Alpizar had already cleared customs and had boarded the aircraft. Other witnesses reported hearing him yell "I gotta get out of here! I gotta get out of here" as he was running down the aisle. I think the marshall in the Hawaiian shirt was a tad overzealous and now the gov't is covering his tracks.

[0rganism]

19. Other: I have NO CLUE what happened other than a marshal shot a crazy man

and I won't, until the various witnesses start agreeing. Did he say "I've got a bomb" or not? Did he have a bag with him or not? These are basic questions that have not been answered consistently from people who were there.

[renegade000]

21. exactly

i don't know anything for certain, so until I do, I can't make a judgement on it. because depending on what exactly happened, i could swing either way.

[MrPrax]

22. Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"

At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains the federal air marshals were alittle too quick on the draw when they shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run off the airplane shortly before take-off.

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."

Time Mag Expose

[goodhue]

25. How is that gathering of facts thing going?

Because I'm still pretty confused about why they thought he had a bomb.

[Thorandmjolnir]

26. Funny thing

All the people saying it was justified believes the official version, the "I have a bomb" version.

Those saying it was not justified, are not buying the official version. Me, I am not buying the official version for two reasons:

1. The mentioning of a bomb for the first time was by an "unnamed senior official". Why is that person unnamed?

2. Not one single civilian witness has said the man said anything about a bomb. As a matter of facts, so far four (4) witnesses has come forward and said that no word of a bomb was uttered by the man.

And before anyone start saying that he could have said it outside the plane, the official story is that he yelled "I have a bomb" inside the plane running up and down the aisle. (Special Agent Adams.)

Lastly, he was shot outside the plane, so no danger of hundreds of civilians getting blown to pieces.

I would love to see a quote from someone, other than the Government, saying the guy said he had a bomb. Please, anyone?