Please vote in this poll about clemency for Stanley 'Tookie' Williams

[nofurylike]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10335622/

Should Stanley 'Tookie' Williams be granted clemency?


thank you


peace!


*edit - if the link doesn't get you to the poll, i do not know how to get back to the pre-vote page. there is a link to the poll on this page, in the middle of the article there:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10335588/

[Pam-Moby]

1. Done

Should Stanley 'Tookie' Williams be granted clemency? * 8948 responses


Yes
31%
No
69%

[texpatriot2004]

2. Forgive 70 x 7 nm

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. 39% yes

What do the others think, that clemency means he goes free? I bet they have NO CLUE about what he has done to influence others not to get into gangs, etc. They only see a scary black man, and they want him dead. I am disgusted.

[nofurylike]

18. that is a good point, ayeshahaqqiqa. many misunderstand what

clemency is.

absolutely, many have "NO CLUE" and "...only see a scary black man, and they want him dead...."

i am disgusted too.

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Walt Starr]

4. I voted in it.

I voted NO!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. interesting

Why?

[Walt Starr]

7. Because I do not believe this man deserves clemency

The Death Penalty should be carried out in this case. Hell, it should ahve been carried out at least a decade ago!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Ok

My reasons for allowing him to live in prison without parole are twofold. One is pragmatic-I've checked out what he has done to try and keep others from joining gangs, and I think his work on this is a powerful reason to allow him to live. To execute him will silence his voice and might even encourage gang bangers to either make him a martyr or say that the execution shows that white society is against the blacks, so join gangs to fight back (I'm not saying this is correct;I'm just saying this could be something they could do.)
My second reason for asking for clemency is that I am against the death penalty.

[Silverhair]

14. Be afraid ! Don't make the Crips mad at us or they might do something.

That is what your reasoning boils down to. Appeasement of a violent street gang is sickening.

I can understand and respect a principled stand against the DP, even as I disagree with it. But cowardice in the face of the Crips is vile.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I'm not afraid of the crips

nor is that what I said. Mr. Williams is now denouncing the crips and other gangs, and for that work I think he should be spared. BTW, I worked in an inner city school where gangs were prevalent, and I feel that someone who "was there" and now sees the error of their ways can be a powerful influence on impressionable youngsters.

You are entitled to your own opinins. I just wanted to clarify mine.

[Walt Starr]

20. Why should I believe him?

Why should I beleive he would continue this one instant longer than it takes to get his sentence reduced?

The man has already proven himself a liar and refuses to admit he killed these people even thought he evidence is overwhelming.

[Silverhair]

41. Read your own words:

"...encourage gang bangers to either make him a martyr or say that the execution shows that white society is against the blacks, so join gangs to fight back..."

Translation: Be afraid of the Crips.

[Union Thug]

28. The point isn't Tookie, it's that the Death Penalty is WRONG

The state should not be in the business of executing its citizens.

[nofurylike]

37. "The state should not be in the business of executing its citizens." yes!

absolutely!

thank you, Union Thug!


peace and solidarity!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. If he has genuinely been working to keep kids out of gangs...

I absolutely think he should be given clemency. Putting him to death isn't going to change the fact that four people were killed, but keeping him alive might help keep more people from getting killed in the future. He is making a positive impact on society now, and though he should stay in jail for what he's done, that he can still make a difference is enough to justify him not being put to death.

Killing him, in my eyes, is nothing more than revenge.

[Walt Starr]

23. I do not believe he is being altruistic

I firmly believe he is doing this just to keep himself from having a needle stuck in his arm and I do not believe he will continue this for an instant longer than the point in time where his sentence is reduced.

The man is a proven liar and should not be trusted now.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Did you see his interview on Tavis Smiley?

He seems to be resigned to death. He did not appear to be pulling a con. When he talked of his website and his anti-gang work, he appeared to be sincere.

[Walt Starr]

31. The biggest sign of a con being pulled

is when something seems too good to be true and the con artist doesn't seem like he's pulling a con.

starting up the crips makes this guy a world class conman.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. Okay, but he's just going to be sitting in jail anyway.

Seriously, even if he's NOT being altruistic, at least he's still helping people, which is a hell of a lot more than you're going to get from killing him now.

[Walt Starr]

53. Putting him to death right now

would be the end result of JUSTICE, plain and simple.

[WhiteTara]

40. So, you think the Nobel Peace

Committee members are just dupes and fools?

[Silverhair]

43. He has NOT been awarded any prize.

He has been nominated, but anybody can do that, for anybody. Nomination means nothing.

[Walt Starr]

46. Come off it, George W. Bush is a Nobel Peace Prize Nominee

:eyes:

[WhiteTara]

56. big diff pay, he

didn't win.

[WhiteTara]

57. okay, I re read my google

notes and Tookie was only nominated. Oops. Or in the words of Emily Letella...never mind.

[Walt Starr]

62. Williams didn't win either, so you're blowing steam

The nomination for Tookie Williams is no different than the nomination for Bush and no different from the nomination for the Nobel Prize in Medicine the asshole "doctor" who claimed Terry Shiavo was conscious and cognizant of her surroundings, too.

[nofurylike]

47. i keep wondering the same thing, BareNakedLiberal! and Desmond

Tutu? and Mario Cuomo? and Alfre Woodard? and Barbara Lee, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Danny Glover, Jesse Jackson, Bianca Jagger...


do people here - DUers - really think they are all just "just dupes and fools?"

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Silverhair]

50. Self delete. Wrong sub thread. NT

[Walt Starr]

63. Yep, dupes and fools. n/t

[nofurylike]

42. well said, Vash the Stampede! thank you for posting! eom

[Deep13]

8. Whatever one thinks about the death penalty,...

...this dude is hardly the poster child for clemency. He is a multiple murderer who lead one of the most violent criminal gangs in America.

[wixomblues]

5. 70 percent are saying "no". So go vote title readers.

nofurylike, I can't help but be impressed by your tireless efforts to help this man. Any personal connection with the case?

Anyway, your effort has made me less apathetic, and I have signed the petition, and encouraged others to do so. Although I don't think he's innocent, I don't believe in the DP. Usually, I don't care, but I am impressed with your passion.

[nofurylike]

26. thank you for your very kind comment, wixomblues! and for your taking

action on your opposition to the death penalty!

just a human connection, like you.

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Czolgosz]

58. Every Californian has a personal connection with Williams v. California.

If you live in California, Williams is scheduled to be killed in your name and on your behalf.

[liberaliraqvet26]

9. Wouldn't clemency be like a pardon??

I don't think he should be pardoned, but he should not be murdered by the state.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. No

a pardon would mean he goes free. Clemency means he spends the rest of his life in jail without the possibility of parole.

[WhiteTara]

38. clemency is NOT a pardon

usually commuted sentence to life without parole.

[Fescue4u]

11. Done. 69% No

Thank you for posting this.

[emlev]

13. I voted yes. I feel strongly about this.

I think most people believe he should be executed because he was one of the founders of the Crips gang. But that is not what he was convicted of, and my understanding is that there is significant question about his guilt or innocence of the crimes of which he was committed.

It seems to me that what we really want in this world is for people to do good. To execute someone who has made very positive contributions to ending violence because he previously participated in violence makes no sense to me. I think it sends a message to people who are involved in violence now that there's no point in changing their ways. That's a dangerous message.

I ask those of you who are tempted to vote "no" to first learn about this man and what he has done. You can easily do that at:
http://www.savetookie.org.

Those who are already convinced can go to that site to learn how to help stop the execution, scheduled for eight days from now.

[Walt Starr]

15. BIAS ALERT

The site linked to for "additional information" is biased in favor of the criminal. Look into the actual court documents for a TRUE picture. This man is a MASS MURDERER. He shot one man in the back who was a clerk in a 7-11 and shot a man, his wife and his daughter to steal $100 from a Motel Office.

The man is a MASS MURDERER!!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. You are saying, then, that

there is no help for someone who has murdered many people-that they cannot change their ways and they cannot be rehabilitated. Have I understood your position? I'm not trying to flame or incite, but only understand.

[Walt Starr]

19. There is only one way to obtain justice in a case with a mass murderer

Death.

There is no other course for justice to be done.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. Ok, now I understand

thank you for clarifying. Seeing that you are obviously pro death penalty, are there other crimes that you think should automatically result in death-that the perps in such crimes cannot change their ways?

[Walt Starr]

29. Yes

Baby rapers should be put down like rabid dogs, too.

Cop Killers, too. Killing one cop should result in the DP, period. No mass murdering needed in those cases. Shooting an EMC worker or a fireman , too. One killing of any of these public servants should be a quick trip to a gurney and a needle.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. interesting that you said that

because a family member was raped as a baby. This was back in the days when this sort of thing was hushed up, and NOTHING was done about it. I shudder to think how many other infants this monster molested. At least now they are brought up for trial.

[Walt Starr]

33. and I think they should be put to death, period. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. It's less about his rehabilitation than it is about others'.

If he can keep kids out of gangs, that's reason enough not to kill him.

[Jamastiene]

69. That was my point exactly.

My aunt thinks he should be put to death immediately. She didn't get my point that he has been atoning by trying to keep kids from falling prey to that kind of hideous thug life. I mean we actually argued about it. I think he should stay in jail, but I think they should commute his sentence to life in prison. He could continue trying to stop kids from getting into gangs.

[Silverhair]

54. Psychopaths can not be rehabilitated.

They are like pedophiles. Something is hardwired in the brain that makes them that way.

The murders over the trivial amounts of money in the robberies, the cruelty with with they were done, the sexual overtones of the shot placement on the young woman, the joy he took in bragging about the murders are all the marks of a psychopath.

[nofurylike]

34. "I ask... first learn about this man and what he has done. " yes. thank

you, emlev.


peace and solidarity!

[BIG Sean]

24. Thanks...I voted NO

He is a Murderer.

[Liberal In Texas]

44. So, you think ALL murderers should be executed? n/t

[BIG Sean]

52. Mass Murderers?....Yeah...I do!

He has killed at least FOUR people. Lord knows how many other people he helped kill!

The earth is better off without him on it.

[fortyfeetunder]

61. How about *

Don't you think he's responsible for the lives lost in Iraq?

[Deep13]

25. Here's an interesting narrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

[Deep13]

35. Side note:

The SCOTUS does not permit juror exclusion on the basis of race. There is a recent decision on that point, though I forgot its name.

Founding the Crips is was not his convicted crime, but the murders were committed while on gang business. Things like gang membership are not elements of the offense but are legitimately aggravating circumstances for sentencing for capital and non-capital cases.

Sentencing is based on factors in existence at the time of sentencing. Glad to hear he is doing nice things now, but he still murdered robbery victims in cold blood.

[Walt Starr]

36. What he's doing now can have a bearing on clemency

but as far as I'm concerned, he's never demonstrated remorse for his crimes and thus, he is automatically ineligible for clemency.

[Silverhair]

45. Side question: How many copies of his books have been sold?

Anybody have any hard data on that - with references to the data, not just wild claims.

[hiaasenrocks]

60. Here's your answer!

A quick review of Book Scan shows the Tookie series of books have hardly been blockbusters. His top seller, “Gangs and Violence” has sold 330 books. Another book “Gangs and Wanting to Belong” sold exactly two copies.

A grand total of 332 books sold!

http://www.dogonvillage.com/african_american_news/Articles/00000373.html

[Nye Bevan]

48. Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****."

The store clerk, twenty-six year old Albert Lewis Owens, was sweeping the store parking lot. When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dust pan down and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward followed Owens into the store. As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." While pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage room.

Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****." Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then fired again into Owens' back.

Both of the shotgun wounds were fatal. The pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Owens testified that the end of the barrel was "very close" to Owens' body when he was shot. One of the two wounds was described as ". . . a near contact wound." After Williams murdered Owens, he, Darryl, Coward and Sims fled in the two cars and returned home to Los Angeles. The robbery netted them approximately $120.00.

Once back in Los Angeles, Williams asked if anyone wanted to get something to eat. When Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens, Williams said he "didn't want to leave any witnesses." Williams also said he killed Owens "because he was white and he was killing all white people." Later that same day, Williams bragged to his brother Wayne about killing Owens. Williams said, "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed hysterically about Owens' death.

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie2.htm

[Yollam]

49. I voted no.

Abolish capital punishment, yes. Is "Tookie" especially deserving of clemency, no, IMO.

[Silverhair]

51. Done. Voted "No". 7 times. I have 7 computers so I can do that. NT

[woo me with science]

55. voted NO nt

[hiaasenrocks]

59. Done! I voted NO. And it looks like the

overwhelming majority of people voting in that poll have a clear preference for justice. Good to see. Thanks for the link!

[Protagoras]

66. Or the overwhelming number of people who go to this site

enjoy Joe Scarborough's point of view.

Internet surveys are such odd little things.

[msanthrope]

64. I'm taking what I call the "Ted Bundy" approach to this.

I don't think the death penalty is a good thing.
But I won't raise a finger for this psychopath.
I won't shed a tear for Tookie.

[michreject]

65. Voted no

Nothing else to say.

[RebelOne]

70. Same here. I also voted no.

[Connie_Corleone]

67. Voted no. eom.

[Fescue4u]

68. Done

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Voted No. Thanks For The Link!