Violence in video games

[proud2BlibKansan]

VIDEO-GAME violence


Watch what kids play


Say, what’s that roasting on the fire alongside the chestnuts? Shop carefully, or your children may spend Christmas morning roaming the video-game world searching for hungry cannibals.

In time for the holiday season, the games “F.E.A.R.” and “Stubbs the Zombie in Rebel Without a Pulse” that depict cannibalism joined video-game selections that include gang warfare, drug deals, shootings of police officers and hiring and killing prostitutes, according to the watchdog National Institute on Media and the Family.

Parents need to use care in choosing video games for their children and teens.

Industry officials say most of the violent games are rated M, which means for ages 17 years and older.

But in a survey of game buying, the institute found that 44 percent of child customers were able to buy M-rated games. That’s 10 percent higher than a year ago.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/opinion/13328027.htm

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Really, what is Christmas without

gang warfare, drug deals, shootings of police officers and hiring and killing prostitutes?

[TlalocW]

3. Really

Where I've lived, it's normally too cold to go out and do it all that for real. We normally just do our other holiday tradition of roasting chipmunks over an open fire.

TlalocW

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Apparently not much nowadays

And what was that deal about libruls destroying Christmas?

[montana500]

59. It's a game meant for adults. video games dont mean just kids these days.

nm

[montana500]

61. What's messed up about this thread....

...is there are more posts and outrage here than in any of the recent threads about selling off our national forests and public lands. This video game crap is worthless, pointless drivel. It has no real relevance to anything important at all. It's not a tangibile thing that we will "lose" and not get back.

Besides, want your kid off the tv so he wont play as many video games? Take them on fishing/hiking/wildlife watching trip in your national forests and parks.

[wixomblues]

87. Pointless drivel?

It's freedom of speech. Sorry about your trees, but more people can relate to video games then the national forests.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. That 'freedom of speech' label

is clearly your opinion. We don't all see this that way.

[wixomblues]

135. No offense,

but it is freedom of speech. "Not seeing it my way" is like a fundie telling people that prayter is school is ok because they don't see separation of Church and State the same way.

Video games, movies, books, they all fall under the category of speech.

[montana500]

143. It's not about trees...

it's about wild places and lack of roads, research, quality recreation , family time and drinking water for 60 million Americans.

But yeah, video game censorship is much more imporant.....

[wixomblues]

189. Hey, I like the great outdoors,

But I'm a working stiff now. I live in urban sprawl. I don't really remember what a forest is.......but I know video games.

Actually, I go hunting in the U.P. twice a year(Upper Peninsula) and I love the outdoors. It just isn't a pressing issue in the hearts and minds of most people. It doesn't take away from it's importance. And besides, this debates is about speech and the first amendment, vis a via video games.

[montana500]

209. I used to fish in the U.P. as well.

Now I pretty much choose the northern rockies.

But you do have a point, the lack of discussion has alot to do with failed media coverage of environmental issues.

[wixomblues]

217. My uncle taught me to fly fish in the rockies.....

In the wilderness perserve. Amazing. Best fishing I've ever experienced. Michigan pales in comparison.

personally, I feel like environmental issues are only firsthand to a small amount of people. I live in Southeastern Michigan right now. In a state with a population of nine million, over a third live in this little areas, around and in Detroit. Basically, one third the state lives on 1/75th of the land.

Also, the really scenic parts of this state are in the middle of nowhere. At least, when you're im Utah, Colorado, or the northwest, you can see the majesty of the land all around you.

[noahmijo]

62. Yep it is to the upper middle class mother who gets it for her 6 year old

Hey parents it's called reading. Read the freakin label check out the game, you don't have to be a gamer to know what's appropriate and what isn't.

Secondly the reason for these adult games is because those of us who grew up in the 80's with the classics like Mario have now grown up to want more "mature" games.

Believe it or not there is more to just the dirty stuff you hear about.

Saying Grand Theft Auto is nothing but killing prostitures is like saying The Sopranos is completely based on the scenes of the strip club.

Get your head outta your asses and do your fucking job as parents and quit depending on the government to be your babysitter.

[NuttyFluffers]

298. used to work at a game store...

you wouldn't believe the amount of times i and my fellow co-workers tried to inform, and sometimes outright stop the parents from making certain M purchases. it doesn't matter. it's the screaching banshee hell spawn that must be obeyed. apparently children are things to shut up, not raise. and the best way to shut them up is get whatever they even remotely whine for.

i've given up on this topic. i love video games, i've done research on video games, i've had many friends and classmates do reports on them, even social impact and child development. i've worked and seent the direct retail side of it. i've witnessed neighborhood children of dysfunctional families (stress of divorce, abuse, etc.) get anything that'll shut their trap. children in america are not to be raised, with love, boundaries, and guidance -- they are just expenses, reliving lost dreams, extensions of personal status, or pawns to get back at another.

i really don't care what the "violent games are like to minds what candy is to teeth!" group. i've lived through this, i've studied this, i've seen multiple sides of this, i've actually tried interventions - nothing, nothing, NOTHING! matters until you deal with the first problem of parenting. so, i have no need to flap my gums at people who won't listen. there's one answer, and if they haven't figured it out yet, what can you do?

[noahmijo]

301. bro I completely believe you-I've SEEN what you're describing

You guys who work in game stores for the most part are excellent and go outta your way to help parents out.

I was witness to this incident in Christmas '03 when this mother was demanding the clerk give her a copy of GTA for her 8 year old.

The counter guy said "you know that game is way too much for an 8 year old the violence and content is really not suitable" and he began to show her games that had E ratings and a few Nintendo titles you know the cute ones, and she actually throw a tantrum in the store and demanded to see his manager so she could report him and try to get him in trouble-for doing his fucking job.

Quite frankly I feel for video game store clerks you guys put up with some real retail hell and I blame dumbass parents 1000%

[Lerkfish]

2. *shrugs* parents need to use care in all things....

but I support the right of game manufacturers to produce things for older people, even if I disagree with the content.
I also support the right of pornography but don't allow my kid to view it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Good for you

If all parents were as conscientous, we wouldn't have articles like this to read.

[jsamuel]

22. maybe we should concentrate on programs that get parents to be more

responsible for their children. This way we can really get to the root issue of parents not knowing what their kids are up to.

For example, programs that help parents stop their kids from actually participating in gang warfare, drug deals, shootings of police officers and hiring and killing prostitutes in real life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. There are a few programs like that in some communities

and I think they are a great idea. We do need to get to the root issue here instead of bandaiding the problem.

[jsamuel]

33. :)

:hi:

[wixomblues]

6. What's your point?

Joey Lieberman and Hilary C have been on the squawk box about this issue as well, threatening and bullying retailers. They only do this because they want to wow the same hicks that voted against gay marriage. I guess they figure that people who don't want men to kiss also wouldn't mind censoring free expression.

the groups behind this drive are not trying to inform parents, they are trying to prevent major retailers from carrying these games. This would stop the manufacture and sale of these games, and for people like myself, who enjoy a flesh eating zombie from time to time, it would be very upsetting.

Not as upsetting as watching Senators attack the first amendment, and commerce, in order to get some Hick red state votes. But it is upsetting that the Democratic party would suddenly start promoting censorship and bully tactics.

Sorry for the rant, I respect you wanting to let parents know about these games, but parent have a responsibility to figure this sort of thing out. If you're the sort of parent that buys Grand Theft Auto for your ten year old, I'm sure that level of care and decision making is reflected in many other facets and aspects of your child's life, and the video game alone is not the reason you're kid is going to be screwed up.

Long story short, parental warnings are BS. These groups, who Clinton and Lieberman are carrying water for, just want to censor free expression.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. My point is that we have an obligation as a society

to protect our kids. Period.

This isn't about taking anyone's rights away. No one I know who is an advocate for kids wants to censor free expression. That is a pile of horse pucky. We just don't feel it is healthy for children to play that they are shooting cops, picking up hookers or eating human flesh. But hey, if that is your bag, and you are an adult, knock yourself out.

Sales of these violent video games to kids are up. Sure we have laws and regulations but they apparently are not working. So let's strengthen those laws, enforce them or get rid of these violent games all together. They weren't around when I was a kid and I don't play them now and guess what? I do not feel the least bit deprived.

My point is that if YOU want to be able to enjoy these kinds of video games, then support keeping them out of the hands of kids. Or you will lose them. That parent who buys Grand Theft Auto for his ten year old has the potential to spoil everyone's fun.

And that is Hillary Clinton's point too.

[mongo]

31. I think the point is

You want to control OTHER PEOPLE'S kids.

You also seem to contradict yourself in the same post:

This isn't about taking anyone's rights away. No one I know who is an advocate for kids wants to censor free expression.

And then --

So let's strengthen those laws, enforce them or get rid of these violent games all together.

Hmmm.....

You know, pong didn't even come out until I was a teenager. We didn't have these games when I was a kid either.

We played cops and robbers and army men. We shot at each other with BB guns.

We'd get our hands on some fireworks and blow up models we had built.

We'd find bullet shell casings in the woods, and hammer together two shells filled with matchheads to throw in campfires later (kids DON'T try this one at home).

We'd grab a can of gas and with two people on one bike they would make a gas trail down the street to light up. (Another one to not try at home).

We played in the woods behind the sewage treatment plant, where they dumped the solid waste. (Did you know that the stuff they dump is JUST like quicksand?)

Not to mention a bunch of EVEN WORSE STUFF I won't go into here.

Maybe if I was on my butt playing a violent video game, I wouldn't have got into so much trouble as a kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I see far too many kids who are not being supervised or

as you say - 'controlled'. by their parents. What do you propose we do about them?

I grew up in the same era as you. My sisters and I have scars from falling out of trees and off of our bikes. Fortunately we survived. But I can also tell you about a neighbor who was permanently brain damaged when he was hit in the head with a ball at a baseball game before wearing batting helmets was common practice. And there was that boy we were in school with whose baby brother was killed in a fender bender when he went flying into the dashboard of the car. And I can tell you about a girl who is still in a wheelchair today after being thrown from a car when she wasn't wearing a seatbelt because cars didn't have them.

There was a girl in my neighborhood murdered by a pedophile long before any of us even knew that word existed. And a classmate of mine was raped by his father, went to the police and they took his dad's word for it when he accused his son of exaggerating. That boy committed suicide when he was 25 years old.

Yeah I remember life back then before we felt like we should protect our kids with helmets and seatbelts and car seats and laws that keep predators away from them. I remember it well and I am extremely grateful that along the line, we have decided it is worth it to protect our kids because I don't want to go back to a time with no seatbelts or helmets and child predators who get away with their crimes. No thank you.

[satireV]

51. The problem is your argument about cause and effect

It is shown that the effect of not wearing a helmet can cause damage when hit in the head. Same with seat belts.

But the cause and effect of video games is NOT known, but mere conjecture or gratuitous assertion.

That's WHY we prohibit censorship, because there is no proven cause and effect.

Why aren't you advocating warnings on BOOKS that contain the same violent scenes?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Kids are not allowed to check out books like that

in public libraries. Those laws exist already. And school libraries don't carry that kind of literature.

And I would bet there are studies that link violence in video games to violent behavior.

[satireV]

253. When did libraries stop kids from checking out the Bible?

And sure there are plenty of correlational studies that link viddies to violence. But again, they aren't causal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

279. LOL that darn bible

Seriously, kids can't check out 'adult' materials in a library without parental permission. That law was snuck in when we weren't paying attention a couple years ago. It also restricts their internet access in public libraries.

[leeroysphitz]

65. Protect your own kids and let ME worry about mine.

Busybody.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. And what do you suggest we do about the kids

whose parents DON'T do their job?

[leeroysphitz]

83. I guess we have no choice but to pass an endless

flood of ever more intrusive laws that micromanage codify and regulate every aspect of their lives and their childrens behavior from cradle to grave. What other choice is there? Yes, this approach is clearly the answer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. So I take it you are in favor of

allowing kids to do whatever they want since it would be intrusive and micromanaging to do otherwise.

School? Who needs it? Let kids stay home and watch TV all day. Or they can just roam the streets.

Alcohol? Why not? Let's teach them to drink at an early age. It would be intrusive to prohibit it. Hey kids in Europe can drink! Why not here too?

Joe Camel needs to be brought back too. Let kids learn about smoking while they are still young.

Porn? Might as well start this form of sex ed at an early age.

And when kids break the law, why have a juvenile justice system? Let's throw them in with some hardened adult criminals in a regular jail.

We sure wouldn't want to do anything to actually PROTECT our kids. Why that would be micromanaging!!!

[leeroysphitz]

226. MY kids.... Genius.

MY kids are MY responsibility. Not yours. Why do I always let myself get embroiled in these arguments with rules freaks? Ugh...
I give up. Please feel free to ban anything and everything you want to.
You win.

[wixomblues]

92. Bad parents reap their opwn reward.

You can't save everyone. I don't need the state playing the role of the parent. DO YOU?

Society, as long as it has exsisted, has had elements of good and bad, right and wrong. That's not going to go away. You're going ot have bad parents, and you're going ot have bad kids. YOu can certainly try and control your own child, but don't interfere with others. Don't interefere with individual rights. If your child is taught well, she will know the difference between right and wrong, and able to make good decisons. And that's all that matters.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. We all suffer from the effects of bad parenting

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

I also see nothing wrong with working to make our society better.

[wixomblues]

173. Yes, we all suffer from the flutter of a butterfly's wing as well.

You can't change people. You can't make them better, if they don';t want to help themselves. The kids that are going to kill innocent people, they are not going ot do so because of a video game.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to make society better. However, if you ahve to do so at the expense of the rights we enjoy in that society, you should stop. Like the Patriot Act. They sold us that by saying it would make Society better. Safer.

We siffer from bad parening...yes. That doesn't give the state the right to be a "parent" to us all. we have foster care, Children's services, if an adult is a truly bad parent, the child can be removed. But having the gov regulate what sort of media we CHOOSE to expose ourselves to is a foolis answer to a complex problem. It's one of those solutions that makes you feel good, but does nothing. NOTHING, except anger responsible people.

[Deja Q]

49. Bingo! See my post down below as well, but...

it's easy to tapdance around those ratings as well.

The movie industry has lots of ratings but marketers get the meanings of the ratings shoved down because they want to entice 16 year old kids to buy tickets for stuff they probably shouldn't see.

What should be TV MA ends up TV PG far more often than we suspect, I suspect. Hell, even "The War at Home" is TV14 and I disagree with that. Even Family Guy and its ilk should be TV MA. Whether or not the shows are funny is one thing. Their gross misuse of the rating is my point. FOX slithers around it, also rendering their own "protect your kids" commercials utterly pointless.

[wixomblues]

50. Ok, let's examine two of your statements......

1. "This isn't about taking anyone's rights away. No one I know who is an advocate for kids wants to censor free expression"

Ok. Sounds good. And then you say:

2. So let's strengthen those laws, enforce them or get rid of these violent games all together. They weren't around when I was a kid and I don't play them now and guess what? I do not feel the least bit deprived."

Right. The last part, getting rid of them all together....that would fall under the category of censorship.

There's a great article about this, and the response of the video game companies, here: http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/driving/projectgothamracing3/news.html?sid=6140617

However, the notion that being a responsible parent means that you can tell me where I can and can't buy things, and ruin the quality of games is ridiculous.

Besides, these games cost fifty to sixty dollars. If you're kids have that kind of money, and you don't know how they're spending it(i.e. on "bad games"), that falls on the parents.


This whole issue is the result of lazy liberal parents, and crazy conservative censors.

Bottom line, know your kids. Don't make me, or society, be the parent. If they want to get a copy of Grand Theft Auto Three, they will. You can stop them from playing it in your house. You can know who their friends are. You can act like a parent.
(I'm not referring to you directly, just parents in general proud2blib)

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. These games that cost $50 or $60 can also be bought

in pawn shops for a lot less. My 27 year old kid buys most of his games there.

I agree with most of your post. Some parents are lazy and/or crazy. I see it every day.

I know it is a tough call. And I really don't want to rob adults of the pleasures they are entitled to. I just want to see existing laws enforced and kids kept from playing violent video games. I don't want kids exposed to porn either, but I probably have more allies in that battle. LOL

[Mr. Cigar]

265. Thank You!!

I've lurked on DU forever (4yrs) and I've always followed these threads. I've been waiting for someone to point out the money issue. I'm a parent and a gamer. I enjoy my games, my son enjoys his. I believe this is an issue for parenting NOT governance. First off. A parent should know what game their children are playing. For pete's sake most of the time the PARENTS are the one's buying the game. If you don't know what's in the game YOUR child is playing that's YOUR problem, especially if you are the one buying the game. Next,if you didn't buy the game and your child went to the store and purchased the game him/her self, then you have issue with the store they bought it at, GO BITCH AT THEM!! If your beef is that your child bought such a game on the internet, well that is your problem as well, for a child to buy a game on the internet they usually have to have a credit card. Which means they are either using your credit card or a card you gave them, again your problem. If you have given your child a credit card and they are buying games that you feel the aren't mature enough to play, then hey, maybe the aren't quited mature enough to use the credit card you gave them. Any way that is this newbie's two cents.

[Beelzebud]

268. Well said. It seems so simple to me... It's just common sense!

Common sense.

Something that the wing-nuts, of either side, have little of...

[The Straight Story]

164. cops and robbers

played it when I was a kid (40 now). Sticks for guns and such but the vioilence was imaginary and the intent was the same.

if we want to keep them out of the hands of kids fine - not as much the retailers job as the parents' (but retailers should have some rated games behind counter and ask for id).

Hell I would rather the kids be playing such games then out getting into trouble.

[Greyhound]

7. Thank Dog none of those games show SEX! Our nation just can't handle any

more catastrophes of these biblical proportions. Sure blowing peoples heads off is a little gross, but imagine the trauma if little johnny saw cartoon characters having S_E_X.
WE MUST BAN VIDEO GAMES! THINK OF THE CHILDREN, FOR DOG'S SAKE WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! :eyes:

[JHB]

8. Go to the source:

Tenth Annual MediaWise® Video Game Report Card
David Walsh, Ph.D.; Douglas Gentile, Ph.D.; Erin Walsh; Nat Bennett; Brad Robideau; Monica Walsh, MA; Sarah Strickland, David McFadden
National Institute on Media and the Family
November 29, 2005

http://www.mediafamily.org/research/report_vgrc_2005.shtml


They don't like zombies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. And your point is?

Here is what I found on that website:

This year, we surveyed six hundred and fifty-seven 4th-grade through 12th-grade students in their classrooms. These students represented schools both public and private in rural, suburban and urban schools. Students averaging 13.7 years of age completed the surveys anonymously during the fall of 2005. Key findings include:

87% of 8- to 17-year old children play video games at home. More than nine out of ten (92%) boys play video games at home, while 80% of girls say they play at home.

Less than half (47%) of children say their parents understand all of the ESRB ratings. Only 26% say that a parent has ever stopped them from getting a video game because of its rating (28% boys, 23% girls).

Seven out of 10 children report playing M-rated games.

There are vast differences between boys and girls, with 86% of boys admitting that they play M-rated games compared to 49% of girls.
Almost two-thirds (61%) of children report owning their own M-rated games, up from 56% in 2003. 78% of boys say they own M-rated games.

Almost half of children (45%) say they have bought M-rated games themselves (up from 37% in 2003).

Only 55% of children said a parent was present the last time they bought an M-rated game (down from 65% in 2003).

Almost two-thirds (60%) of children list at least one M-rated game as their favorite (75% of boys and 35% of girls).

[JHB]

35. My point is the same one made by others here

That we need better enforcement of the existing regulations, and economic conditions where people have more time to spend with their families.

I also think that the above statistics fairly scream for a closer examination of exactly what M-rated games these kids are buying, being allowed to buy, or being bought for. Include not just the kids but their parents too. Why were some "mature" games acceptable? Why weren't others? Were there any the parents didn't know about?

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I agree

You know I spend my days with kids aged 5 to 12 and just about every one of them has played GTA. I ask them frequently. The ones who don't own it know where they can go play it.

So we clearly need better enforcement of existing regs.

[Mr. Cigar]

266. Nearly every thing you

listed went straight back to the parents. Parent not with the child, parents don't understand the ratings, parents didn't stop them from buying the game,and the parent was with them when they bought the game. Gee seems like PARENTS sure had alot to due with what (some people) are seeing as a problem.

[Selatius]

9. I believe video games serve a viable emotional vent

I would rather people commit violence within the confines of the video game world instead of going on a shooting rampage in school, the work place, the mall, the post office, or any other place.

Of course, if video games are driving people to commit acts of violence, then I would say that is a problem of the home or the individual himself as opposed to the game itself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. So what do you say about the rest of us

who don't have this need to go on shooting rampages or eat human flesh? Or pick up hookers?

Is there something wrong with us?

[montana500]

12. This is an issue we will lose votes on

Teens who approach voting age HATE politicians who try to restrict video games.

That's the simple truth. Been there and done that myself. It's a losing cause, just like gun control in non-urban areas.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. And the age group that is least likely to vote is

the youngest eligible.

So any votes lost will be insignificant.

Those of us who are older and actually want our kids NOT exposed to this crap are a much larger and more vocal group.

[montana500]

19. I understand your point, but it's a losing issue

Even from the older tech crowd.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Maybe in the Republican party it's a losing issue

But the Democratic party I have known all my life supports protecting those least capable of protecting themselves. The Dem party I know promotes good schools, funding education and providing health care to all citizens. These social causes are the strength of our party; they are what the party was built upon. They are what Howard Dean and John Edwards have been talking about for weeks now.

So I think Hillary is just being a good Dem when she advocates protecting kids from violent media.

[montana500]

57. video games aren't a social cause....

They are a parents cause.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Violence in our culture is indeed a social cause n/t

[montana500]

146. how are video games to blame for that?

I don't get it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. We have an increasingly violent culture

Video games are just a part of a big problem.

[montana500]

162. Isn't that up to the parents though?

Shouldn't the parents be sitting down with these kids and having talks with them about violence?

[proud2BlibKansan]

242. Yes they should

[wuushew]

26. The youth vote did their duty for Kerry in 2004

Shame on so called "security moms" and the elderly for reversing what were promising trends in 2000.

Video games as an industry is growing and being played by a larger segment of adults every year. Why piss off a growing constituency?

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. No they did not

Look up the stats. The youth vote is down, and always has been. Sure a few more voted in this last election. But not nearly enough. If they had come out in droves, as we hoped, we may have had different results all over the nation.

And I am not concerned about pissing off a constituency. My agenda is about protecting kids. If that pisses anyone off, they need to have their head examined. How in gawd's name can anyone promote exposing kids to violence just because the alternative means THEY may not get to play violent games themselves? No, I am not concerned about you losing your joy in watching cannibals eat human brains or in pretending to shoot cops or people of color. Sorry, in my world, kids come first.

[montana500]

58. bingo. nm

nm

[mongo]

34. Tell the truth

actually want our kids NOT exposed to this crap

Isn't what you want is for OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS to not be exposed to this "crap"?

I'm sure you're perfectly capable of parenting your own children, and don't need Hillary to help you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I am a teacher

I get to deal with the kids whose parents have dropped the ball. They do most definitely need help, from Hillary or wherever.

[Kitsune]

36. Hooray, my vote is insignificant!

While you're at it, you'd better do something about that devil's music all us kids listen to these days. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Making voting choices based on ONE issue

is what the anti abortion crowd does. I would hope DUers are smarter than that.

[Kitsune]

278. I fail to see what that has to do with that I just said...

But okay! FYI I don't make all my voting decisions based on a single issue, but the hooplah over violence in video games is one issue that is increasingly irritating me, and I am a diehard lefty. Imagine what it's going to do to all the moderate gamers.

In any case, the whole argument is just plain ridiculous. Eighty years ago it was Jazz. Fifty, rock and roll. Twenty, Dungeons and Dragons. Ten, Ren and Stimpy. People have been flipping out about all sorts of harmless things that are somehow going to destroy the very fabric of the space-time continuum.

[proud2BlibKansan]

282. So if Hillary is the Dem candidate in 08

would you vote for her? Or would this video game issue cause you to vote for the republican candidate over Hillary?

[nadinbrzezinski]

285. No not the game issue

the fact that she still supports the insanity in Iraq

the fact that she is a woman who is not that liberal

the fact that if she is the candidate we will probably loose, too much of a divisive candidate. She has far more negatives than positives and is actually the Right's wet dream of a candidate

[proud2BlibKansan]

286. So would you vote republican?

I am all over her for her war stance myself. And this flag burning deal today pissed me off.

But I would vote for her just because I can't vote for the republicans anymore. I am just wondering if others are willing to put aside the reasons they dislike her and support her if she runs for prez.

But if she keeps going in the direction she appears to be headed, I doubt she would get the nomination.

[nadinbrzezinski]

288. I would probably vote third party

no way I could vote for a repuke ever... and don't start about voting third party will mean a republican win. Knowing a tad about US History, I know exactly what it took for the Dems to find their way once again... third party in the 1870s-90s... out of that revolt came the New Deal

[proud2BlibKansan]

291. Fair enough

It would be a tough call.

[Rocknrule]

13. I'm getting sick of this

Just because a couple kids in Littleton were fucked up doesn't mean the whole world has to suffer for it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Put down that video game controller

and pick up a newpaper. Or turn on TV news.

It's about a whole lot more that a couple kids in Littleton, CO.

[satireV]

53. Just curious

Why does the violence in video games cause people to be violent but the violence on TV news and in newspapers not?

[jayfish]

192. Or Books For That Matter. -NT-

Jay

[rman]

14. why not equal attention for violence in movies?

far more people watch violent movies then there are people playing violent video games.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. The movie rating system is working

How often do little kids get into R rated films?

[rman]

29. how many kinds watch TV without their parent being present?

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. How many parents have controls on their TV

so their kids can't watch programs they disapprove of? How many parents do as my hubby and I did when our kids were younger and just not subscribe to movie channels or forego cable entirely?

Apparently a lot more than you realize.

[rockymountaindem]

43. Well, fine then

Why aren't these same parents stopping their kids from getting violent video games?

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Many of them don't have them in their house but the kid

next door may have them. I know a bunch of kids under the age of 12 and every time I ask, every single one of them has played GTA. EVERY ONE. On the first day of school this year, three kids came and asked me to help them get online and find that special code for the GTA game that allows them to pick up a hooker. I don't think they knew all the details; they just knew that the internet had some special code that enhanced GTA. And they called it by name but I don't remember it now - coffee something? was that it?

So it isn't just the parents. Even the most conscientous cannot always protect their kids. That's why we DO need regulations and we DO need to enforce them.

[rockymountaindem]

46. But the same thing goes for movies and television

Just because one family doesn't allow R-rated movies doesn't mean their kid can't watch them across the street. The same thing goes for television. I don't see why restricting video games is going to help anybody if we allow for violent movies and television. All of these things are available throughout society. You can't protect kids from them unless you ban them all entirely.

Good luck with trying to ban violence in TV and movies, you're gonna need it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Clearly this all points to the need for parents

to do their jobs, to keep an eye on their kids and know what they are doing.

But we also need to make sure kids can't purchase violent games or media.

[wixomblues]

96. Why?

Even if a kid gets his hands on a violent game, what the hell is that going to do? IF GTA makes you kill someone, I'll put forth the argument that there were plenty of other factors in that person's life that drove them to violence.

If you're a boomer, you grew up watching cartoons so violent that they can't be played on tv today. Loony toons, Tom and Jerry, ect....

That generation is no different from any other. The cartoons didn't turn them into a bunch of killers.

How can you believe this garbage? Regulation of media is a regulation of speech. It's how the government controls you. The FCC, the MPAA, they all exsit to supress. It should make you mad, but instead, people in the DNC are getting behind it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. I believe it because I have worked with kids for 25 years now

and I see it every day. Kids are increasingly more and more violent.

If you don't believe me, come join me at recess one day. :)

[wixomblues]

132. Point well taken...

but stats don't back you up, at least crime stats. the crime rate rises and lowers with the population. Perhaps the kids you're watching are of a certain demographic that lends itself to violence. For example, more parents work outside of home these days. less supervision and time with parents can make children violent and hostile. As a whole, we've moved to daycare and two parent incomes in the last 25 years. Also, the divorce rate is a lot higher, so plenty of kids could have less contact with parents because of that.

I do believe that not being exposed to their parents is bad for kids, but I don't want to regulate it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. Ask any teacher

It doesn't matter where we work; we are seeing increasing violence in kids.

[wixomblues]

160. Both my parents are teachers.

As well as my brother. And a few friends. All of them tend to say that good kids are a result of good parenting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. I would agree

I wonder if they agree with me about the increased violence among kids.

[wixomblues]

177. I wouldn't know.

How are you measuring that? Both my parents switched schools fairly late in their careers. Pops went from a middle class community to a very poor one. My mom did the opposite. (My Dad's now an administator).

All of their conversations about violence have reflected on individuals. I've never asked if they had seen a general rise in it. I'll ask them.

Anyways, good luck. The world needs good teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. Tell your parents

they raised an articulate and intelligent kid. :hi:

[satireV]

56. Uh??? the intent of movie ratings was to stop kids from going?

I think not.

The idea was that movie violence causes real violence and stopping adolescents from seeing violence in movies would prevent them from being REALLY violent.

I posit you cannot show this to be causally a fact.

[Rocknrule]

23. I agree

It makes no sense that people think VVGs are more dangerous than violent movies or music. Even though video games are more interactive, they will never be as realistic as movies. Personally, I don't think any entertainment is dangerous, but I think music would be more likely to influence someone because I think lyrics make people sit down and think about things more than images do.

[MadHound]

18. Then I suggest two things

First, enforce the laws that are being violated. Second, and most important, parests absolutely have to be involved with their children and what their children are doing at all times. It is called parenting, and sadly most parents are not practicing it. Looking to ban games, music, movies, etc on the basis that there are many many parents who don't do their job is absolutely ridiculous. If you have children then it is your job to monitor your kids, not the governments and not the rest of society.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Amen

But I do feel that we have an obligation to protect those children whose parents are not doing their jobs.

[MadHound]

24. That is why we need to enforce the laws that already exist

Rather than make new laws or ban certain games, movies, etc. etc.

And quite frankly we need to create the conditions that allow people to be better parents. We're living in a society, raising children in households where both parents work(sometimes two jobs). Thus, there is little parental supervision. Between after school activities, two jobs, the nightly commute, everybody is go go go, and our children are suffering for it.

It would be nice to get a living wage back to the point that only one parent has to work full time. The other can then stay home and be the primary child raiser.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. When my kids were growing up,

I was in charge of the video game controller. They NEVER played when I wasn't around. They NEVER played grossly violent games either.

I agree we need to enforce current laws. But you know even that will offend some of the video game enthusiasts. LOL

Ah that living wage is such a great idea. We clearly need to take back Congress in 06 so we can promote causes such as this.

[mongo]

37. Good thing we weren't exposed to these games as kids

We grew up on wholesome entertainment like The Three Stooges and Tom and Jerry.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. My parents were old fashioned

We only had one TV, we only watched it WITH them and they didn't let us watch The Three Stooges because of what they thought was too much violence. I don't remember watching Tom and Jerry but I was never big on cartoons anyway.

[porphyrian]

39. Thanks for suggesting parents do their job rather than banning the games.

I don't have a problem with violent video games personally - fantasy is where violence belongs. However, I'm sick of hearing whiny-assed parents crusading to censor or ban entertainment instead of spending that time and energy with their kids, teaching them right from wrong.

[Deja Q]

48. They have a point.

Not buying this immoral gabrage in favor of something more interactive would be a start.

Looking at the history of video games in general, they are far worse than most of us have imagined. They separate people. They reinforce the desire for status symbols. They waste resources. (Look at how quickly people buy new consoles only to sell off or throw out the old ones!)

[wixomblues]

52. Video Games are the future of entertainment.

And they offer far more then most people realize. Some are politically charged, some tell stories far too big to fit in a movie, and too vivid to be confined to a book.

I love video games, they are my primary and first choice for entertainment.

[jayfish]

234. I Think You Would Be Hard-Pressed To Find...

many pieces of entertainment that are more interactive than any of the last three Grand Theft Auto games.

Jay

[Jara sang]

54. America's Army: Rise of the Soldier

Video game developed by the U.S. Army. Looks like the Army finally perfected those brainwashing techniques.

[Yollam]

55. I hate those games.

But then again, I am not a video gamer.

And as an "issue" these games are up there in importance with steroids in baseball. They are a tool politicians use to distract the public from meaningful problems.

But I have two kids, they don't have any video games, except for a few educational ones on the computer, and even those, we don't allow them to play very much.

I can't imagine why parents would want their kids sitting glassy-eyed in front of the TV, when they could be outside building tree forts or playing cards or just about anything else that would be a more enriching, fun activity. :(

[CrazyForKucinich]

60. Cain killed Abel

Let's stop teaching Christianity because little Timmy may kill his brother when he hears that story.

People are fucking stupid.

[montana500]

63. what about when you played "Cowboys and Indians" when you were a kid?

You know, with those fake guns and the outfits? Lets ban that too.

Or how about those G.I. Joe battles where kids would pretend to wipe out each others collection of toys? Lets ban that too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Ok Ok this is crap and I will tell you why

Junior can go on the WWW and download a free and compimentary copy of ... drum roll please... AMERICA'S ARMY, which is fully and wholy a recruitment tool. It is not rated mature... indeed it is meant for the 12-14 year old ahem, market. They also sell it at the store wiht some very nifty HO scale collectible action figures, you know the SF Medic, the Indigenous trooper, things like that. They are really COOL... yet wanna bet these guys are not going to say a word about THAT GAME because it recruits cannon fodder to the armed forces.

By the way if the shops do not card kids to prevent M rated games from reachng teens, or worst parents BUY THE DAMN GAMES... it is not my responsibity.

Moreover it is not GTA that produces violence... but a whole culture that relishes on violence... but these folks are the right wing version of the daddy folks who have to tell people these games casue violence. They don't all the studies done by some of these folks have not been repeated.

Now what we should be discussing is the role of violence in the culture and how violence is thought hightly about. It is all over the place, from your ahem Honor Harrington Novel, (military sci fi and yes there is just a tad of violence), to the games our kids play, to the TEEVEE we watch....

Now some of these games are shared by kids across the world (Warhammer 40K comes to mind), yet only AMERICAN kids are having these problems? I say the problem is not the games, but the society... and it is far deeper than a video game. Watch Bowling for Columbine, that movie has a very good recipee of why... this is just another fear campaign by some who mean to keep you afraid.

[MrBenchley]

67. Geeze, Nadine, you want folks to get REAL guns and plug each other...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5410233

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4851206

"By the way if the shops do not card kids to prevent M rated games from reachng teens, or worst parents BUY THE DAMN GAMES... it is not my responsibity."
Megadittoes! Rush Limbaugh couldn't have said it better.

[Rocknrule]

68. The American Army just released a FPS as a recruitment tool

After doing that, the government better not bitch about video game violence ever again

[MrBenchley]

72. Geeze, there's a swell argument....

The kids are gonna be cannon fodder anyway so let a corrupt industry exploit them </sarcasm>....

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. It is NOT the industry that is the problem

it is the society.... kids across the world don't have these problems but our kdis do...care to tell me why?

By the way my player's handbook for DnD does not contain real magic or swords either.

[MrBenchley]

76. These games don't just grow by themselves...

Any more than irresponsibility is a hallmark of progressive thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. ah them who are on a crusade cannot see

where the problem lies, not with the game but the society... look in the mirror... for what you hate is in that mirror. It is Ameircan society.

[MrBenchley]

86. And those who are to blame for a problem

often point fingers everywhere else.

"for what you hate is in that mirror. It is Ameircan society."
Jeeze, you mean you think gang warfare, drug deals, shootings of police officers and hiring and killing prostitutes is hunky-dory?

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Nope, it is not hunky dori q

and you think that GTA will actually cause a kid to go down to south east LA, go through a beat in? Then go through the initiation and become a member of a gang?

Ok here is a little story for you...

Kid we knew and MENTORED who is now in college, when we met him he was quite on the edge... and very much at risk of JOINING your local gang, no game involved by the way. He just saw that as his way in life.

THROUGH GAMING we taught him the value of hard work, the value of cooperation, team work, Math, readying, writing, logical thought ... yep that kid who might have ended up in the slammer is now in an Engineering program and WILL BE a good and productive member of society.

You see gangs are not a consequence of GTA, and have been around far longer than any of the programmers for GTA have been alive.

Now that game is now Adult Only (San Andreas)... but keep harping, you won't be happy until ALL GAMES are burned... I can show a mirror of what a pire of intellectual property looks like. I also remember a crusade against people who spoke of a world that went around the sun... you may remember the name Giordanno Bruno.

[MrBenchley]

102. Awwwww....did he get a puppy?

"Ok here is a little story for you..."

http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=1420684

"You see gangs are not a consequence of GTA"
And since nobody claimed that, who really cares? On the other hand, violence, racist stereotypes and corporate dishonesty are all part and parcel of this odious game.

"you may remember the name Giordanno Bruno."
Yeah, and I don't recall any corpses being eaten or prostitutes getting killed in De l'Infinito, Universo e Mondi.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Nope he was burned at the stake

and by the way what part of GTA San Andreas is rated Adult Only are you missing?

Or are you telling me that your six year old has a copy?

Look if a kid manages to get these things it is the parent's responsibility, PERIOD... it is like the kids who were the other night at the screening of Jar Head... you tell me that we should burn the movie because some minors were in there? (With adults present)

And you want to ban all kinds of thoughts because you don't like it... so sad and so hard to understand why you are Big Brother...

And I do recall corpses, his corpse, or rather his ashes.

At the time he was writing you would have gone to the burning because he was an infidel spreading dangerous thought.

You sure you are a progressive? I mean your arguments are exactly the same I have heard for literally decades now. EXACTLY THE SAME BLOODY ARGUMENTS...

[MrBenchley]

129. You burned the video game kid at the stake?

Wow....

"by the way what part of GTA San Andreas is rated Adult Only are you missing"
I'm not missing anything. You on the other hand, left out that Rockstar lied about the content to get a different rating, then lied AGAIN when the content was discovered. Tell us, how did the ESRB crack down on them?

"You sure you are a progressive? "
Yeah, I am...I don't peddle this "it's alk the parent's fault" crap and I don't try to blame video game excesses and outrages on everybody else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Be cute

I know what Rockstar did, and they fully gave you ammo, to people like you they are your unwitting allies.

I was not pleased what Rockstar did and a search of the archives might reveal that to you... nice try though.

And yes it is the parent's responsibity to raise their kids. Society has a responsibity as well but becasue of what one GAME PRODUCER did, (and they have paid a price, a heavy price), you now want to ban all video games?

The society's responsity insofar as what games are played by kids actually ends at the ESRB board which WORKED with Rockstar and GTA San Andreas...

[MrBenchley]

154. So the ESRB did nothing at all about Rockstar....

"The society's responsity insofar as what games are played by kids actually ends at the ESRB board which WORKED with Rockstar and GTA San Andreas... "
If you consider letting the company lie publicly and taking no action afterwards as "working," which I sure as shit wouldn't.

[Beelzebud]

165. You call us Rush, and you make stuff up more than he does!

Yeah the ESRB did nothing to Rockstar.

Including in Nothing is:

Slapped the game with an AO rating, making sure stores would stop carrying it, which they did.

A complete recall of all games on store shelves.

A recompile of the game wihtout the sexual content that drove puritans crazy.

A repackage, and redistribution, of the game back to the thousands of places it had been.

I hope the ESRB never does Nothing to me... That could be costly.

[MrBenchley]

175. So in other words...

The ESRB did absolutely nothing to Rockstar for lying.

"A repackage, and redistribution, of the game back to the thousands of places it had been."
But didn't you tell us stores stopped carrying it?

[Beelzebud]

179. No not in other words. In plain english.

Stores stopped carrying it until the sexual content, that you puritans were crying about, was removed.

Do you really think the game should just have been banned forever?

You are now just being obtuse. You are not even using your brain. Think critically about this.

If you don't want your kids playing GTA, don't buy it for them! It's really that simple!

[MrBenchley]

188. So corproate wrongdoing is hunky dory

and should go unpunished....ho-kay.

"You are not even using your brain. Think critically about this"
I am.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. Rockstar LOST thousands of dollars, actually

chances are tens of thousands of dollars. That is NOT a large corporation, it is a small to mid tier corporation. Those are MAJOR losses, what you want Rockstar to go under? Would that please you? I fear that is what you would like to see

[MrBenchley]

216. Through their own malfeasance

"what you want Rockstar to go under?"
Geeze, shall we have a government bailout for the scumbags?

By the way, Rockstar is a division of Take 2...

"Take-Two Interactive has released its Q3 2005 fiscal results, showing that net sales increased by 6% over Q3 2004, from $169.0 million to $169.9 million USD"

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6450

Those poor teeny-tiny bastards, having to limp along on just $170 million a quarter....and then to lose "thousands of dollars"....

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. It is STILL a mid tier corporation

and by the way, NOBODY is asking for a bail out, they are not the airline industry for god sakes....

But your crusade is extremely funny

Oh and their profits may be up, but they did loos money on GT San Andreas due to that shall we say small problem.

[MrBenchley]

230. Pulling in $170 million a quarter....

[Beelzebud]

206. Should they have been forced out of business?

Burned at the stake for herecy?

The recall costed them tens of thousands of dollars.

[MrBenchley]

232. Lo, the poor oppressed multi-million dollar corporation

"The recall costed them tens of thousands of dollars."
And third quarter sales were $170 million.

[Beelzebud]

233. Take 2 is the publisher. Rockstar made the game

Again. You are showing how little you know about the game industry.

Rockstar has been around for over a decade. The GTA game you are so worked up about is the 4th game in the series.

It's funny how, when Rockstar was actually a bunch of poor college grads, no one seemed to care what they made. Now that they are successful and bringing some money in, it appears the vultures are circling...

You keep quoting Take2's earnings. That has nothing to do with Rockstar Games, the people that actually make GTA... They struggled for years, and have, only within the last 4 or 5 years, made any money.

[MrBenchley]

245. Rockstar is owned by Take2

"Rockstar Games, the world-renowned publishing label of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. "

http://ir.take2games.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=150683

"You keep quoting Take2's earnings. That has nothing to do with Rockstar Games"
Only if you ignore actual reality.

[da_chimperor]

244. Rockstar's 2005 revenue though october was $20.6 Million

http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/114/114095.html

Yes, they are a poor multi-million dollar company. Their competitors are multi-BILLION dollars companies.

Edit: Right, I didn't realize they were taken over by take-2. But, as a subsidiary of take two, their earnings are separate, as they are two legal entities. So . . . they are still a small studio, but happen to not be in danger of going under due to their parent corporation having loads of cash. So i'm taking away the 'bam, you lose'.

[MrBenchley]

247. And Rockstar is owned by Take 2

which had $170 million in sales last quarter....

[Beelzebud]

248. OH NO! An evil corporation made money!

What is your point? Yeah TAke2 made 170 million. They publish hundreds of games a year!

Rockstar, the people that made the game, made 20 million.

Again: What is your point?

Are you just jealous because they made money by making something you don't approve of?

[MrBenchley]

255. Tell us again how poor and oppressed they are....

"What is your point?"
Thuddingly obvious. These cries of "Oh, they lost tens of thousands of dollars" are just one more bit of desperate sophistry in defense of the indefensible.

"they made money by making something you don't approve of?"
There's always good money to be made selling roadapples to credulous suckers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

258. No it is not sohisptry, it is real

you have any clue how a line is marketed and how it can affect your botton line?

So they made money, they still did not make what they expected from that game and people faced the music. You ahve a problem because they are still in business

[MrBenchley]

263. No it's sophistry, and easily disproved sophistry at that....

[da_chimperor]

260. So a company making money is indefensible?

Are you sure you know what you're saying?

[MrBenchley]

262. Geeze, it was claimed that a few $1,000's loss was significant

but now we found out what rubbish that was.....

I know that was what I was saying...but then I'm not desperately trying to defend corporate irresponsibiltiy and corruption.

[da_chimperor]

267. I'm far from desperate, i'm actually quite eager.

Since you accuse a company (take 2 I believe, or is it back to rockstar) of both irresponsibility AND corruption, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate though either evidence or argument that they are both corrupt and irresponsible. Wow, what a doozy. I am concerned however, that you won't do this as I think you have no interest in rational debate.

Right, as it's nearly midnight over here, i'll check this thread and see what you've come up with. Have a pleasant evening.

[MrBenchley]

269. It shows, (snicker)

"demonstrate though either evidence or argument that they are both corrupt and irresponsible"
I'll choose "evidence," Johnny...

"Rockstar's parent, Take Two Interactive, also admitted for the first time Wednesday that the sex scenes had been built into the retail game -- not just the PC version but also those written for Xbox and PlayStation2 consoles.
Company officials had previously suggested that a modification created by outsiders added the scenes to the game, last year's best seller in consoles."

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:PV98rYXQjNAJ:www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/20/video.game.sex.ap/+GTA+Take+Two+admitted&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"Initially Take Two said the explicit scenes were the result of modifications made to the game by Hot Coffee.
The ESRB investigation found that the scenes were in the game all along.
"What was clear to us is the fact that fully rendered content existed on the disk that was not disclosed," said Patricia Vance, ESRB president. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4702737.stm

[da_chimperor]

304. "Evidence" is very appropriate for what you provided.

I'll help you out. Your problem with the ESRB (as far as I can tell) is that it's ratings are not legally binding. Your opinion is shared by a site that I read often. Perhaps you should bookmark this for use in later flame-wars.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/26/games/

After having done more in-depth research on the issue, I will concede your point that Take 2 and Rockstar may have acted irresponsibly, but i'll wait and see. The forbes article below notes that the whole matter is being investigated by the FTC.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2005/07/20/ap2149794.html

However the primary topic of the article is on the financial impact of Hot Coffee on Take 2. It was far from insignificant, and I think it ends your argument that the impact of Hot Coffee was nothing for either the developer or publisher.

Now regarding corruption, i'm still waiting.

I will be more than happy to discuss the content of either article with you. Cheers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

272. It was not a few thousand, but in the tens of thousands

it is rumored that people even lost their jobs over this fiasco, as in coders adn developers. I am sure that makes you giddy too!

[da_chimperor]

251. Yes, I noticed that and updated my post accordingly.

So now you focus your wrath on Take 2. I'm still waiting for a response to my post regarding the ESRB, by the way.

[da_chimperor]

183. That's because they are a RATINGS body. They RATE. That's it.

Sheesh.

[MrBenchley]

190. So the claim below that they're a regulatory body is a lie....

Thanks for confirming that, at least....

[da_chimperor]

195. Wait a sec, what are you referring to?

[da_chimperor]

180. They did take action. They changed the rating to AO (adults only)

for the version including the hidden scenes. Rockstar had to re-release a whole new version without the hidden content to get the M rating back.

Hidden content is a misleading title in my opinion; disabled content is a better term. Someone had to hack the game to get to it, and since it's present on both the PS2 and PC versions of the game (though only accessible on the PC version via the HotCoffee mod), it's been attributed to sloppy work on the part of Rockstar. Basically, it's a section of the game that they decided to not to include at the last moment and so rendered it inaccessible while leaving the code for the mini-game in place.

I would argue that the ESRB worked perfectly, and that you have yet to cast any doubt on the effectiveness of the ESRB as a rating body in ANY of your posts. Boo-yah.

[MrBenchley]

185. So they gave it the rating it should have had, and did nothing

to punish the company for its breach of trust...

Yeah, that really ought to deter further corporate wrongdoing. </sarcasm>..

[da_chimperor]

191. They do not punish, they are a neutral and objective ratings body.

That is all they do, and that is all they will do. I bet you get angry at your goldfish for not fetching the morning paper.

[MrBenchley]

201. It was claimed below they're a regulatory body

But it is hilarious to watch you pretend that an industry group is neutral and objective about their own industry.

Are they fair and balanced too?

[da_chimperor]

210. Well, I never claimed that they are a regulatory body.

And you are dealing with ME. Do you have any evidence to suggest they are not neutral and objective? I would very much like you to provide some, and don't even think of trying to claim NIMF as being an accurate source.

Oh, and let's keep our battle of wits to this section of the post. I'd rather not run about refuting multiple copies of the same argument.

Edit for grammar.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. Thet game went from M to AO

you say that was nothing... ok free clue you realize they lost all the major distros for that game? I mean all the major distros. That is bucko bucks in losses

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. Where do you get the idea that kids across the world

don't have these problems? There was a video posted here just yesterday of kids in Iraq throwing rocks at US military. Wouldn't that be a 'problem'? And isn't Iraq 'across the world'?

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. They are throwing rocks at a convoy in their occupied

country because of GTA? WOW! I am impressed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

193. I didn't connect the rock throwing to GTA

YOU did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

207. In the context of the thread it was natural

now lets be specific, during WW II, kids, yes KIDS were blowing up trains in occupied france. Members of a resisntance movoement do things that you may think are connected to this, they are not

[proud2BlibKansan]

214. So are you now claiming that kids across the world

are also violent?

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. No I am not claiming such

what I am saying is that gaming does NOT lead to violent acts... not directly... regardless of what the lets protect the children crowd claim.

Most cases where gaming was even tangentially involved the kids were found to have far more issues than just playing a game... if anything the game was a symptom.

Now you are the one trying to confuse the issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

215. delete/ oops

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. I am a game producer

and if stores do not card people for cigarettes there are consequences... again, the legal side of it is not MY responsibility

You see people like you have been on a crusade against any and all gaming since Dungeons and Dragons made its appearance over 30 years ago. It was, but this will teach kids about witchcraft... there are devils... oh my a Paladin in Hell...

Again, why don't you go after the source problems? Oh and again I will ask... kids across the world play these games, the paper and pencil variety as well as the Electronic kind, but only our kids are having these problems? Hell Military Simulation and gaming has been alive and well in its modern form since HG Wells wrote the FIRST ever rule set, in the 1890s, so tell me, where is the problem? It is NOT the game, it is the society.

[MrBenchley]

74. Always informative when folks drop the mask

and we can see what's really back there....

" if stores do not card people for cigarettes there are consequences... again, the legal side of it is not MY responsibility"
Brown-Williamson coudln't have said it better...

"Tobacco companies deny that the massive sums they spend on advertising and promotion - more than $3 billion annually in the United States alone - are designed to appeal to children. They say they advertise only to influence the brand preference of current smokers. But the widespread use of cartoon characters, rock stars and sports to promote cigarettes leaves little doubt that young people are primary targets of tobacco companies’ marketing campaigns. "

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1992/01/mm0192_07.html

"so tell me, where is the problem? It is NOT the game, it is the society."
Nothing even remotely progressive about that attitude.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I as an individual am not responsible if you run a red

light either or drive drunk. There is this thing called INDIVIDUAL responsibility.

Again you are on a crusade, not that different from the extreme right crusade against ALL FORMS of gaming since Dungeons and Dragons came into the market. If any body has dropped that mask is you, not me.

As a society there should be consequences for that store NOT carding people... but I, as an Individual have no responsibility, nor can I do a thing about it.

Now you are the one who is on that crusade, yet you refuse to deal with the most important factor.... it seems it is American kids who are having problems with all kinds of media... not Canadian kids, for god sakes not British kids, the home of Games Workshop and the home of War hammer 40K a game with quite a bit of disbursing imagery. yet the blokes can tell the difference between the game... and the real world. So tell me why are American kids having these problems... and ONLY american kids.

And should I take responsibility for you running a red light? Or worst driving drunk? Next time I see you do that I will report YOU to the nearest cop.

By the way here is my massive budget for marketing this year... 200 dollars... wow! Amazing ain't it?

[MrBenchley]

88. Rush couldn't have said it better....

He loves to shift corporate irresponsibility onto individuals and castigate them for their supposed failings.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. keep comparing me to the right wing

when it is you who keeps acting like the right wing. You are the one wiht censorius thoughts... As I said, I have met your type for over 20 years as a gamer, and ten of them as a paper and pencil first free lancer and then develooper. ALL Your arguments have been around since Dungeons and Dragons, ALL OF THEM... care to tell me why DnD is still around?

Oh sorry, kids will want to go join the devil, after all demons are part of the monster manual...

[MrBenchley]

114. I'm quite happy to....

This "it's all the individual's fault" is prime right wing gibberish...

Here's WorldNutDaily peddling it from the master's own vicodintrap....

""Once again we find conservatives able to be totally honest about who liberals are," said Limbaugh, praising DeBrecht for her observation that liberals oppose religion, traditional families, and the free market because those institutions are obstacles to eliminating personal responsibility and establishing a welfare state. "And I'm telling you, the liberals cringe – they go ape! – when you dare be honest about them. They call it an attack!" "

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46451

Here's the flabby junkie in gfull cry: "You know, there's this problem of not accepting responsibility for what you do. Somebody else is always to blame for the decisions you make."

Here's the same principle among the scumbags of the Heritage Foundation: "Our nation was founded on self sufficiency, and it's a great American tradition that is in danger of being lost. I know Heritage feels the same way and is committed to restoring personal responsibility."

t-planning.org/donors.html

[Beelzebud]

117. Issues like this make it easy for them to say that crap.

Because people like you, forget common sense, and demand a company be held responsible for shitty parents!

[MrBenchley]

166. Crap is crap

no matter how you try to justify it.

[Beelzebud]

171. I know! But you just go on justifying your crap crusade!

[MrBenchley]

186. Sorry, it's that "personal responsibility" mantra that's crap

which is why Rush peddles it to his addlepated listeners...

[Beelzebud]

198. So should there NEVER be personal responsibility?

Are there EVER shitty parents, or is it ALWAYS someone else's fault?

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Sorry but in some areas of life

personal resonsibity does come into play

1.- If you buy drugs

2.- If you buy games rated M or AO for your udner age kids

3.- If you take your kids to the movies that are NC-17 or R

What you want me to police every parental decision? There are ratings there, and there is a limit on how far people can go to try to prevent this from happening. If a parent chooses to buy a game in spite of a rating, what do you want us to do? Shoot the parent?

[MrBenchley]

168. Corporate responsibility

So what did the ESRB do when they discovered Rockstar had lied?

[nadinbrzezinski]

221. We alredy told yuo

and you are too thick skulled to get it, cannot help you there

[Beelzebud]

115. Enough with that crap.

He's like Rush because he doesn't want to see peopel like you censor games?

Give me a damn break!

I don't wnat the democrats to be the Party of Censorship! Who leads the charge on that one? Joe Lieberman. 'nuff said!

Sometimes the P.C. bullshit around here just drives me nuts...

[MrBenchley]

142. So people ought to be able to recycle Rush Limbaugh's gibberish

but nobody ought to point out that it IS Rush Limbaugh's gibberish....ho-kay.

"I don't wnat the democrats to be the Party of Censorship!"
And I don't want irresponsible corporations to peddle violent ugly swill to kids without regulation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Again the games you are harping agaisnt are Mature

17 is not a kid, or Adult Only. THey are regulated, what you want is for the STATE to get involved, which is a RIGHT WING wet dream. After all that wedge is all they need to REGULATE everything you get. As is they have a pretty hard control on all print media and video media... you want to give them yet one more avenue to peddle their swill?

[Beelzebud]

150. You sound more like him than we do, IMO....

You remind me of the anti-gay zealots that are trying to outlaw gay marriage because it's something YOU don't agree with.

You want to point fingers, and call names? Fine.

[wixomblues]

151. Violent ugly swill is as american as apple pie.

What you consider "violent ugly swill" I may consider one hell of a game. Thank god we get to live in a country where we can decide for ourselves, and we don't prevent designers from selling games in order to "protect children". Thank god we understand that it's the parent's roll to protect their children, and we'er not some Ralph Reed types, trying to impose our personal views on others because we think we know what's best for them.

[MrBenchley]

172. Funnier and funnier....

"trying to impose our personal views on others"
Says a guy trying to pretend "Violent ugly swill is as american as apple pie."

[wixomblues]

178. Oh, laugh a little. One man's trash is another man's treasure.........

You get the point. It's not up to you to decide what is swill.

[MrBenchley]

204. And when one wallows in a sewer

others have the right to complain about the smell....

"It's not up to you to decide what is swill. "
Community standards.

[jayfish]

219. Is This Some Of The Swill That You Are Smelling?

Wiki:Cannibalism in fiction

Jay

[wixomblues]

224. Community standards applies to obscenity only.

It also requires what the average person would consider obscene. And it is limited to communities, not States. Something doesnt become more or less obscene depending on who is viewing it. If video games become "obscene", so does Lord of the Rings, Titanic, Fahrenheit 911, and any book written by Stephen King.

[MrBenchley]

236. Here's the deifinition of obscene...

"1 : disgusting to the senses : REPULSIVE
2 a : abhorrent to morality or virtue; specifically : designed to incite to lust or depravity b : containing or being language regarded as taboo in polite usage <obscene lyrics> c : repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles <an obscene misuse of power> d : so excessive as to be offensive <obscene wealth> <obscene waste>"

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/obscene

Some of these games fit the bill better than a common stroke book or porn film.

[Beelzebud]

238. Ok Jerry Falwell.

Now you're going to tell us what is and isn't obscene..

Just like the religous right...

George Carlin would have a good laugh at this horseshit.

[wixomblues]

249. You brought up community standards. The Supreme Court,

in determining what was obscene, left it to "community standards", which were defined as "whether to the average person, applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the material, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest."

The former measure was the classic "I'll know it when I see it" approach.

Bottom line, Obscenity is rooted in sexual behavior. So you lose there, unless cannibalism is a turn on. Next, you're using a dictionary to define what is or is not obscene. The nature of the law, and the word, is that it is subjective. Meaning, you can't point to a dictionary and make a blanket statement that something is obscene. You have to meet the community standards requirement. And, eventually, as in all other cases with video games, before the law is enforced, it gets thrown out, for being unconstitutional.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment

This was expanded when the Court decided Miller v. California in 1973. Under the Miller test, a work is obscene if it would be found appealing to the prurient interest by an average person applying contemporary community standards, depicts sexual conduct in a patently offensive way and has no serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Note that "community" standards—not national standards—are applied as to whether the material appeals to the prurient interest; thus, material may be deemed obscene in one locality but not in another. National standards, however, are applied as to whether the material is of value

[wixomblues]

84. The crusade ag ainst smoking is just as ridiculous,

The whores in congress just want a shakedown. Shakedown entertainment, shakedown toacco, go for the green. If you don't know cigarettes are bad for you, you deserve to die of lung cancer, because you're too stupid to live. We don't need those genes.

Ok, a little harsh. But the point is the same. Do you want video games, an expression of an individual, to be regulated like cigarettes because some government board finds cetain material offensive?

[MrBenchley]

90. You and Joe Camel...lonely crusaders....

"Do you want video games, an expression of an individual, to be regulated like cigarettes"
Damn straight. Even more so, since Joe Camel was only pushing cancer, not gang warfare, drug deals, shootings of police officers and hiring and killing prostitutes....

[wixomblues]

101. Ok Big Brother.

Let's regulate ideas. Ideas are dangerous. First, we convince the people that we're doing it for their own good. we can't let them play dangerous games. these games will hurt them. They will give them bad ideas.

Soon, we'll need to regulate the news. The news will also give people bad ideas. The news presents a danger to people. Just like video games. Never mind the first amendment, there is danger afoot. Expression should never reign over the "safety" of the people.

Ok, now that we've regulated the news, and the entertainment industry, we must prevent other sources of danerous ideas. the library, let's regulate that. Reading, well, that can lead to all sorts of things. Today, a kid is reading about gangs, and tomorrow, he's starting one.....

[MrBenchley]

104. Hahahaha....Violent games are an "idea"?

Tell us, what "ideas" are expressed in Stubbs the Zombie. Please, I think you ought to spell them out.

"Ideas are dangerous."
Not nearly as dangerous as the lack of them.

"Reading, well, that can lead to all sorts of things."
Including liberal ideas and the notion of corporate responsibility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. You played the game?

most of these games have a story line... and thought the game you actually get to the story... some of them are more complex than others. You have NEVER played ANY game have you?

For god sakes even the original copy of Wolfestein 3D had a story, as simple and linear as it was... to get out of the castle and tell the allies of the big secret weapons the Third Reicht was developing.

[MrBenchley]

121. Yeah, I've played video games once or twice....

BFD...

"You have NEVER played ANY game have you?"
Because if I sat around twiddling a joystick for hours, suddenly mindless, violent, racist swill would be transformed into harmless fun?

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. I don't know what games yuo played

obvoously not Castle wolfestein... so the mask is off, you think they are mindless drivel... I see.... so you want to ban what yuo don't like...

[MrBenchley]

134. I'm calling for the games to be regulated

and have been throughout the thread....

But please keep on telling me I want to ban them....

[wixomblues]

136. They are regulated. Self regulated.

You want the government to regulate a private enterprise, that's entire product is protected under the first amendment.

[MrBenchley]

153. Self-regulated....says it all.....

"You want the government to regulate a private enterprise"
Yup....I see no reason to let an industry police itself...especially one as irresponsible and corrupt as this.

"that's entire product is protected under the first amendment. "
Not even close to true.

[wixomblues]

156. Regulation is unconstitutional. Here is a link to the RECENT Illinois case

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140739.html

And it's been thrown out in every state. Please stop saying it's unconstitutional. I've already linked twice to proof that it is. Please show me a case or anything that says video games are not protected speech.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. They are already regul;ated

and that is what we are telling you, but keep going

[Beelzebud]

158. Reminds me of Bob Dole criticizing Pulp Fiction during the 94 election.

A reporer asked him the simple question: Have you seen it?

Dole: No.


Or how about those that slammed Fahrenheit 9/11 without watching it? Same difference.

[MrBenchley]

196. Funny...

Look at the content of these games, and it seems like Ted Bundy, Bill Bennett and Rush Limbaugh out on a bender.....

[Beelzebud]

202. How do you know?

[nadinbrzezinski]

289. Game designer hat on

paper and pencil I am laying out right now... part of the story line includes the oh Bill of Rights and the US Constitution... but don't expect you to know that... nor for you to find out. You simply don't know becuase in many ways you are going on hearsay....

I guess the SIMS are also a no-no for you.

[wixomblues]

119. Stubbs the zombie

is an expression, a form of speech, just like a movie or a book. the idea, as far as I can tell, is that even someone who is persecuted for looking different can still rise above and become a hero, even to those who once persecuted and feared him.

Also, writing hahahahahaha...doesn't illustrate anything other then your inability to make a point. Whether you think that an idea is simple or complex, foolish or wise, it doesn't take away from the fact that it is an idea, an expression, and a constituional right.

[MrBenchley]

124. And what an expression!

"he idea, as far as I can tell, is that even someone who is persecuted for looking different can still rise above and become a hero" through cannibalism.

"Whether you think that an idea is simple or complex, foolish or wise, it doesn't take away from the fact that it is an idea, an expression, and a constituional right. "
And subject to regulation, as courts have upheld over and over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Regulation of teh first ammendment is very dangerous

the only expresion the Warren court regulated was screaming fire in a crowded theater...

For the most part they stay away from free speech, thought the Roberts Court will happily oblidge and ban anyting disconfurting to the Right WIng, you sure you want to go there?

[Beelzebud]

128. Who are you to judge?

You are as bad as the right-wingers that want to outlaw same-sex marriage because you don't agree with it...

[wixomblues]

144. There, he said it.

It's exactly the same thing.

[MrBenchley]

163. I got no problem with same sex marriages....games and gamers do

"Violent first-person games like “Postal 2” and “Grand Theft Auto 3” include gay characters — complete with pink shirts and other stereotypical signifiers — as targets for shooting or mutilation."

http://www.washblade.com/2003/12-19/arts/video/gaygames.cfm

"If you think female gamers have it rough, think about what it must be like for gay gamers to form their own voice. The video game industry bleeds masculinity, and online gaming is no different. One Halo 2 multiplayer session and you'll no doubt be subject to more gay slurs than you can count.
Even the forums at Gaymer, a site dedicated to gay gaming
acceptance, are flooded with jackasses calling members fags
and submitting fake posts. "

http://www.kickthepuppy.com/article.cfm?blog_id=8033

[Beelzebud]

169. LOL... So do the gamers at Gaymer hate gays too? See how flawed that is?

You really ARE just like a right-winger.

So some idiots made some anti-gay posts to a website for gay gamers, and now suddenly ALL gamers are anti-gay?

So do the gamers at Gaymer hate gays too? See how flawed that stupid argument is?

[MrBenchley]

174. Do you think they're in favor of same sex marriages?

"See how flawed that stupid argument is?"
Says the guy who brought up same sex marriages out of thin air for no apparent reason.

[Beelzebud]

176. Says the guy that wants to make his opinion a law.

I brought it up because that is what you remind me of.

YOU disapprove of violent games, so therefore you think there should be federal regulation of them.

Not much different than the right-wing whackos in regards to same-sex marriage...

[MrBenchley]

252. Hahahahaha....

[wixomblues]

141. Actually,

Courts in Illinois and Michigan have both struck down laws where the state wanted to regulate vide games and punish people who sold them.

Here's the link:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140739.html

The game industry scored a victory on Friday when US District Judge Matthew F. Kennelly declared a pair of Illinois game restriction laws unconstitutional, Game Politics reported.

The Violent Video Games Law and the Sexually Explicit Video Games Law (SEVGL), introduced last December by Rep. Linda Chapa LaVia (D-Aurora), were set to go into effect January 1, 2006. Had they stood, the laws would have limited the sale and/or rental of games with violent and sexually explicit content. Retailers caught renting or selling such games to persons 18 or under would have been fined up to $1,000 for violating the statute

[wixomblues]

145. It's not cannibalism if you're a Zombie.

Duh. Zombies aren't human. you haven't even played Stubbs. For shame.

[Beelzebud]

184. LOL

:) Good one. :D

[Beelzebud]

126. People like him just want to make their opinion the law.

Forget that adults play these games.

Forget that times have changed and there is a whole generation of adults that played games, as a child, and now play them as adults.

He just knows he doesn't like them, and therefore they should be banned.

It's not much different from the religious right's attempt to outlaw same-sex marriage because they don't personally want it.

[montana500]

155. two different things.

smoking impacts others, video games don't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. Aha!

So your interest is financial while mine is what's best for kids. hmmm

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Given I produce games that are paper and pencil

and I do encourage parents to read the material before they buy it to make sure it is age apropriate... I don't know what your deal is.

That said I have heard the lets protect the kids crap since DnD came to the market over 30 years ago...

[wixomblues]

159. Right, but with DnD it was coo-coo for christ types. Now, it's us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. Same shit, different day

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. You make money off of these games - TRUE?

That would skew your judgment just a bit, IMO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. No acutally I ahve not made a red cent yet

but before you judge, go over to the webstie and read it, you may be in for a surprise.

As to my skewed judgement, here it is ...

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I hope you have heard of it, becuase an Empire where things such as the above were forgotten is what the world is based upon, A world based upon cheap labor conservatives, a controlled media... yuo know the drill... and the fight of some hardy souls to restore the US Consntitution

www.deistgames.com

Go ahead, continue to attack freedom of speech... then Tashkent will become very real, insteand of just a dystopian future.

[proud2BlibKansan]

228. YET? So you hope to one day?

Obviously, if you have a potential financial interest in video games, then of course you are going to defend them.

My #1 concern is what is best for kids. So I am going to speak out when I think their best interests are being ignored. And I do not think that playing video games where they can shoot cops or watch human flesh being devoured is a healthy activity for children.

I also don't see this as a free speech issue. That is reaching. We don't sell porn or cigarettes to kids. Yet I don't see those industries crying that their free speech rights are being violated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

231. What part of PAPER AND PENCIL

did you miss?

My stake is in freedom of speech... yours is in "protectcing the children"


I mean I have told parents to READ the material, not play it.

As I have said in other areas, the argument you are making have been made by the RIGHT WING since Dungeons and Dragons http://www.wizards.com/ first came out to the market place over 30 years ago.

The same arguments you are making were made back then. Most people who play games move on to very succesful lives, and they get to do some things in games that help them learn skills...

Now you are also telling us that yuo want to protect the children from ADULT games. Funny yesterday I went to buy a game for my husband, and Target did not let me walk with this all over the store (NASCAR for god sakes), and they did NOT sell several kids a couple M rated games.

See how this works?

[proud2BlibKansan]

239. So game producers are not paid

to produce games?

I know how 'this' works. Kids are prohibited from purchasing violent video games and they get to play them anyway. That is how it works. If kids had access to porn, wouldn't you agree that the regs that keep them from purchasing it were inadequate? What if kids could easily get cigarettes to smoke even though it is illegal for them to buy them?

That's the problem. We have regs but apparently only retail stores enforce them (and that happened only after numerous complaints that the ratings were being ignored by retailers).

What good are rules and regulations if they don't help prevent the problem?

[Beelzebud]

246. What good are rules and regulations if they don't help prevent the problem

THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME....

What do you think imposing more rules on the industry will achieve besides to stifle creativity?

You can add a MILLION more laws to the books on this. It won't change a damn thing. Some parents suck, and will allow their kids to smoke, watch R Rated movies, and play M rated games.

[proud2BlibKansan]

276. We need to enforce the rules we have.

And we can wring our hands all day long about the parents who don't do their jobs. But at the end of the day, we have red hands and a bunch of kids who are going to have some problems. I see an obligation to those kids. Apparently, not everyone else does.

[nadinbrzezinski]

281. In that we agree

but what do you do with the parents who WILL BUY THE GAME for little Johnny even after we spend a good half an hour telling that parent, this is not appropriate for your kid? What do you do then? Oh I forgot, blame the industry

[proud2BlibKansan]

284. Well that could be viewed as a form of child neglect

or abuse in some states. It is clearly the parent's mistake, not the industry's.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. No cigar

you cannot prosecute a parent for allowing them to watch a dirty movie, or read an obsene book. Sorry I asked.

There are way more wickets to be hit before the state and CPS will get involved, minor things like oh physical abuse, that can be proven,. starvation or bad shelter. Giving a kid that book does not qualify... after all daddy may be right and his son may be able to handle the material and be well ahead of the curve in child development. I sincerely doubt it... but it is the parent's call. And if a parent allows a kid to play GTA, again it is a parent's call.

So we go back to parental responsibity... damn thing that this is...

By the way by the standard you just cited my parents should have faced the music... at ten I was readying about the Holocaust and watching all those camp photos... piles and piles of bodies... yep it was gory. Oh it affected me, I am a historian by training.... and was a medic for ten years... and have taken stands on what is going on right now mostly becuase of that... I don't want it to happen again.

I feel for you that has to deal with kids today in schools, but your problems are truly not stemming from the games... I have heard the same things about dungeons and Dragons that were the origin of these problems... they are stemming from way too many other issues. If anything the games reflect the problems... but truly are not the root of them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

290. You keep bringing up D&D

but I feel it is a harmless game compared to some of these violent video games. I don't think it is correct to compare the two. Of course, I am no expert but I always thought D&D was strictly an imaginative adventure game. I certainly never associated it with increased violence in kids.

And you are right - this does get back to parental responsibility. So I ask what your opinion is - what should happen when a parent fails to be responsible?

We had a similar situation with a student in my class several years ago who was dangerously violent. He spent Tues eves with his father and they watched wrestling. Then on Wed, he came to school and used wrestling moves on kids at recess. He broke one kid's arm. His mother pleaded with his father to stop letting him watch wrestling. But he refused. Then she asked us to intervene. That is not one of the more pleasant parent conferences I have been a part of. LOL

But I wonder what you think should happen when parents willingly allow their kids to play very violent video games.

[nadinbrzezinski]

292. Social shaming.. that is the best way to handle it

and I keep bringing up DnD because the same arguments were made in the 80s and 90s... some kids went missing and then somebody came up dead. The authorities back then said it is because DnD, and all that going down to the dungeon... they went down into the water system.

Now here is a story about a kid who should NOT be playing any of these games... why? at 15 he had a hell of a time realizing that a Role Playing game is well... a game... I approached parents and told them... if they did a thing with the kid or not I don't know.

Now to wrestling as a medic I saw what you describe... and finally we got CPS involved... there is a limit even in tijuana, Mexico to how many reports can be filed... before they finally get off their asses and open a case.

Well the Family Judge ordered a full background on the issue... and they found that it was far more than just the wrestling... there were MAJOR issues... and I mean MAJOR issues....

The kid was actually encouraged to ahem practice these moves and to ahem defend himself from bullies, never mind he was a bully. Still remember the day in court, we had to testify since we transported three of his classmates to the hospital... let me tell you daddy was a first class bully and a-hole.

So usually when you have a case like you just described, there is far more than just the activity perse. I mean I used to watch boxing with my dad when I was growing up... on teevee... they had it at one time for free on the channel, and he liked boxing. These days you will not find me near a boxing ring anywhere... but I was eleven... but I was a somewhat well adjusted kid. (Yes like all families there were some issues, mostly I was the one bullied in school, and if I had grown in the US, I fear I might have gone out and gotten a gun... it was THAT BAD and the school refused to act. When columbine happened I was not shocked once I fully researched the issue... yes the parents were at fault, majorly... but so was the school, oh and DOOM and Batttletech were secondary to the whole problem)

By the way I have talked to my hubby, he grew in LA and he was the one bullied. We have compared notes... and bullying in schools is a serious problem, and contributes tot this. Funny I was the source of the problem and so was he, never mind we were the ones being bullied. Today we are very well adjusted and when we finally have kids of our own we will watch for that and if they are bullied, will demand the school take action, They don't, home schooling thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

254. You have layers to protect the kids

1.- ESRB, which will NOT work if parents do not know that an M Game is for 17+ or just decide to buy it for junior anyway. THe industry has responded.

2.- Parents, I cannot stop parents from buying the book of vileness, (never mind it is sealed and hs a large sticker, that says ADULT ONLY)

This is a two way street... and if a game is rated M or AO, and kids are playing it, don't tell the producers it is your fault. The ratings broke at multiple places after the game left for distro... and in many cases, more than I care to remember, it is PARENTS buying this for junior. Hell, we had one parent recently at the store... Junior wanted the book I mentioned... we took half an hour explaining to parent this is not age apropriate.... kid is 14... parent still bought it... so yuo tell me it was OUR FAULT?

[jayfish]

235. I Don't Think Those Things Are Suitable For Children Either.

That's why I don't let my kids watch any of it. For myself, I've played all of the games mentioned in these arguments. Funny thing is, I have yet to taste human flesh, kill a cop or participate in gang war. I must be better than everyone else. :eyes:

Jay

[MrBenchley]

70. I see no reason why this industry shouldn't be regulated

Just as I think it's hillarious to see people try to pretend there's anything "progresive" in letting a corrupt industry sell a dreary melange of mindless violence and ugliness unfettered by law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. It is regulated see that thing called a rating on the side

of the game?

Ever read them?

Don't think so.

By the way, America's Army is NOT rated, care to tell me why? They are not part of the industry as it was produced by the Department of Defense.

[MrBenchley]

75. And who determines that rating, nadine?

Answer, the game manufacturers themselves....

Voluntary controls don't stop corporations from dumping toxic sludge in our water...so how are they going to stop corproations from dumping toxic sludge into kids' minds?

http://www.mediafamily.org/research/report_vgrc_2004.shtml

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. No, not quite

but believe what you want.... I know gaming is bad for kids, has been bad for kids since Dungeons and Dragons, your arguments are tried, TIRED and old... at least 30 years old.

No history or evidence will change your point of view, since you are on a banning crusade... welcome to extreme right thought, for you say exactly what they have been saying for 30 years plus. Here are some well known gamers.

Robbin Williams

Bill Gates.

Yep very much the symbol of failure.

There are more by the way

[MrBenchley]

91. Hahahahahaha...

"No history or evidence will change your point of view"
Especially when it's as lame as "Robbin Williams."

[da_chimperor]

95. Yes, distract from the fact that your argument has a giant hole in it ...

using ridicule. Brilliant.

[TecnoCrat]

82. Nope, try again.

The ESRB determines ratings. And they have a nice wide berth of them to use. Just like the MPAA determines ratings for the movie industry. The self-regulating you describe in the music industry, which only has one rating label.

[MrBenchley]

94. Nice try. The ESRB is the video game industry.....

http://www.esrb.org/about.asp

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. So should the feds be in the businesss of regulating movies too

if the Feds regulate all yuo will not have ANY INDEPENDENT thought... congrats, very fascist on your part... you sure you are a progresive?

Oh and you have no clue how the ESRB works, for it is very similar to the MOVIE rating system

[MrBenchley]

138. if the Feds regulate all yuo will not have ANY INDEPENDENT thought...

Yeah, we need breathtakingly indpendent though tlike "it's not the industry's fault people need to take personal responsibility" </sarcasm>

"you have no clue how the ESRB works"
I seem to have more of a clue than some other folks...so tell us, when the makers of GTA were discovered to have LIED about GTA's content, what did the ESRB do?

[Beelzebud]

147. Well since you asked...

The content you are referring to was not available in the retail game. You had to modify the games .ini files, and change a few things around to unlock it.

No one playing GTA out of the box had access to anything like that. Further. The only copies of the game that this could be unlocked on were the PC version. The Xbox and Playstation version couldn't be hacked in this manner.

What did the ESRB do? They changed the game's rating to AO until a recall was done, and the offending conent was removed from future prints of it.

The thing I find ironic: The "hot coffee" mod, as it became known, added a sexual mini-game. It didn't add any violence, just some sex. No one cared about GTA's content until SEX was involved...

Puritans. No matter what they call themselves, (liberal, conservative) make me sick.

I'm a liberal. I'm FOR the 1st amendment. I think people like Joe Lieberman and anyone else who is as conservative as he is should leave stop calling themselves "liberal".

[MrBenchley]

181. The company lied about the content, then lied again when caught

"What did the ESRB do? They changed the game's rating to AO until a recall was done, and the offending conent was removed from future prints of it."
So in other words, they gave it the rating it should have had all along. Which means they did precisely nothing.

"The thing I find ironic: The "hot coffee" mod, as it became known, added a sexual mini-game."
The thing I find ironic: How dreary and pathetic must some adult's life be, in order to want to watch cartoons have sex while they, ahem, twiddle their joystick?

[da_chimperor]

187. ESRB = Entertainment Software RATINGS Board

They rate, that's it. You are upset with them for not doing something that they are not supposed to do. That strikes me as silly, to put it very mildly.

[Beelzebud]

194. They didn't lie about content! The content was not in the game!

You had to modify the game to pull this stuff out. You obviously know NOTHING about game design. Every game. I'll repeat that. EVERY GAME has conent that does not make it into the final game. Every game has art assets on the disk that aren't used.

That is what "hot coffee" was. Someone found content that wasn't in the final version, and figured out how to incorporate it back into the game. There was no way to access this stuff without modding the entire game. The ESRB reviewed and rated the retail, unmodified game. They saw what ever single user that couldn't mod the game saw.

As to your last statment: "How dreary and pathetic must some adult's life be, in order to want to watch cartoons have sex while they, ahem, twiddle their joystick?"

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO JUDGE? Here we are again. If I want to spend my time like that, I have that RIGHT! I am an adult. If that is how I get my rocks off, then who are you to tell me I can't?

How dreary and pathetic does your life have to be, that you want to regulate and control entertainment, and art, because you don't agree with it?

[ContraBass Black]

237. Thos exact tired lines come through this board every

couple of days. "Wake up, they're a corporation!" "Rockstar lied about the content of their game!" "They're slipping video-porn to kids on the sly!"

Don't get worked up. You'll scream your voice out.

[Beelzebud]

241. I know. It's just frustrating to know we have "liberals" that seem

just as damn crazy as the fundies...

[MrBenchley]

250. They lied about the content, and then lied when they were caught

No matter how much you want to pout.

"Rockstar's parent, Take Two Interactive, also admitted for the first time Wednesday that the sex scenes had been built into the retail game -- not just the PC version but also those written for Xbox and PlayStation2 consoles.
Company officials had previously suggested that a modification created by outsiders added the scenes to the game, last year's best seller in consoles."

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:PV98rYXQjNAJ:www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/20/video.game.sex.ap/+GTA+Take+Two+admitted&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[da_chimperor]

100. So, you are implying that the ESRB rating system is ineffective

because it's an industry body set up to develop and apply a standardized rating system for the age appropriateness of video games for differing age groups. Right.

[DrunkenMaster]

98. what's to stop them?

Simple -- THE PARENTS. Stop trying to censor what adults can and cannot do because parents are too lazy and self centered to actually monitor their child's mental input.

[MrBenchley]

149. Megadittoes!!

"parents are too lazy and self centered"
Rush himself couldn't have said it better....

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. So yuo want to replace the parents for the state

WOW... how much of a RIGHT WING WET DREAM are you willing to give them?

[LiberalPersona]

274. No, do some research on what you speak of

Actually, the ESRB rates games by choosing a panel of anonymous non-gamers. They're anonymous so that companies can't provoke, persuade, bribe them. Game manufacturers and gamers have nothing to do with determination of what rating the game gets.

[wixomblues]

109. How is it progressive to censor and supress?

You want to regulate because you don't like the product, and think that it has a negative effect on people. Even if you can prove that, even if you can prove that video games have some sort of negative effect, you still don't have the right or need to regulate them. personal responsibility, and freedom in and of itself dictate that you leave it alone. It's not your job to protect people from themselves. And video games, while anti-social, are not responsible for others getting hurt. The individual is.

[Beelzebud]

130. Thats my question too. They sound like the anti-gay crusaders...

[MrBenchley]

240. It's certainly progressive to regulate irresponsible industries

and to punish corporate wrongdoing.

"It's not your job to protect people from themselves."
Megadittoes...

[gulfcoastliberal]

257. Like credit card companies?

Or does the sleaze of Citigroup not need regulation?

[MrBenchley]

271. Are you trying to pretend Citigroup is unregulated?

[gulfcoastliberal]

275. I'm not pretending, it's a fact.

[MrBenchley]

294. Citigroup is exempt from banking regulations?

Be sure and show us the evidence for THAT.

[gulfcoastliberal]

305. Absolutely; it's called the "Financial Services Modernization Act";

written by Citibanks lobbyists and the RW; signed into law by Clinton. Or is Glass-Steagall still in effect?

[wixomblues]

261. There is no wrongdoing

You're punishing someone, or advoacting it, for doing something you don't like, even though it's leagal and non-invasive.

[MrBenchley]

270. If you don't actually count the wrongdoing....

by Rockstar/Take Two....

[nadinbrzezinski]

273. They paid for it Mr Crusader

so nothing short of them going out of business will be sufficient for you

[wixomblues]

277. Wrongdoing? Sex is now criminal?

Come on. They didn't do anything illegal. If simulated sex in a mature game is reason to forgo the first amendment, I'm moving to Canada.

[nadinbrzezinski]

283. Well the problem is that this person is confusing what

is ilegal with what is not moral. Rockstar lied... they were caught, they paid a price... aparently the price is not enough for Mr Censor... as he'd rather prefer they go OUT of business.

;-)

[MrBenchley]

295. They LIED about the content, then LIED again when caught

Good enough reason to regulate the industry, as far as I'm concerned.

[wixomblues]

299. Yawn. And on your planet, pray tell, what color is the sky?

Benchley, I don't think you're even being halfway serious at this point. I'm sorry if someone, somewhere, in the video game industry broke your heart. But everything you're suggesting goes against the grain of progressive thought and established law, as well as the constitution. People are allowed to lie. It's not a crime unless you do so under oath(and it's material to the case at hand) or you do so to certain federal agents. Other then that, lie away. It's one of the many rights we enjoy as Americans, the right to be jerks, or clods, or wonderful, thoughtful people.
But the key thing, in all of that, is that there is a choice. The state has no need or role in "regulating" everything that displeases a cranky neighbor, or a gun toting Branch Davidian, or that lady who has all those cats. Everyone is free to live as they like, within the confines of the law. If you want to hyper jump into the mentality that we need to start punishing people before they break law, and start regulating industries because of what might happen, why have laws at all? That sort of thinking leads to a cradle to the grave mentality. If the state really wants to protect me from people who are influenced by video games(Oh no, he's been playing Doom, and he's coming right for us), perhaps they should protect me from kids whose parents don't read to them, from kids who watch too many violent movies, or from kids that play violent games in their backyard. We can regulate that as well.

[MrBenchley]

300. It's blue here, but then I'm on earth

where industries can indeed be regulated, no matter what right wingers say.

"Other then that, lie away. It's one of the many rights we enjoy as Americans"
Wow...it's hard to imagine anyone so muddle-headed that he thinks corpoorate deception is his right as an American. I'd not have believed it if I haven't seen it.

"That sort of thinking leads to a cradle to the grave mentality."
Rush couldn't have said it better....and he often does spout just that sort of idiocy.

[wixomblues]

302. You know, distorting my posts is a little silly when they are right above

your responses. Try responding to the whole, not selected quotes. Anyways, just a general suggestion. As I have nothing more to say on this topic, and you're only response is to compare me to Rush, we can agree to disagree. I'm not going to waste my time talking to someone who is non-responsive.

[TecnoCrat]

78. I'm tired of being villified.

I'd love to see a study on how ofter kids get into R-Rated movies. Or see shows on TV rated too adult for them. Or buy cigarettes or alcohol underage. Or get ahold of adult materials while being underage. Or drive while underage.

But no, they found the culprit to all woes. Video games.

I have no trouble with the game stores and game industry asking itself to stop selling games that are not appropriate to children. I do have a problem with my government stepping in and doing it, but not doing it for movies, TV, etc. The day I see a movie theatre manager arrested for selling a "R" Ticket to a 16 year old will never come. However, in Dallas a man was arrested for working at a comic book store that sold comics not acceptable for children. Check the comic book legal defense fund.

I'm tired of people saying we have to get rid of violent games. I enjoy games of all kinds. Sometimes I want to play something like Katamari Damacy, a game about the prince of the cosmos rolling things up into a ball. Sometimes I want to play something like Karaoke Revolution, a game where I have to sing into a mic to play it. And sometimes, I want to play a game like Grand Theft Auto, or Indigo Prophecy, or Quake 4, or Stubbs the Zombie. (OF COURSE IT HAS CANNIBALISM, IT'S A ZOMBIE GAME! Did people get outraged about possible cannibalism when Land of the Dead came out last year?)

I'm tired of being made the bad guy because I, as an adult, want to be able to play any game I see fit. And any game I see fit for my children to play. Have the stores enforce the rating system tot he same level as the theatres, and I'm a happy camper.

[Rex]

85. Just like R rated movies, it is up to the parents.

Kids will play M-rated games with our without their parents permission. They even make devices nowadays to switch off the game quickly (a foot pedal).

Kids, M-rated games are for adults because we've already become immune to indirect/virtual violence and depravity. Don't let it happen to you! Stick to watching Adultswim.

[LynneSin]

106. I was doing some shopping this weekend - getting harder than you think

All three stores had M-17 games behind lock and key. That meant an adult with a drivers license was needed in order to get the display unlocked and a purchase was made.

If that doesn't make a parent think twice before buying a game rated "M" then I don't know what will.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about having a rating on a game so parents who might not know anything about the product can make an informed decision before buying the game for their children. And since many of these games are top sellers, not sure why a store wouldn't carry them unless profits weren't a big deal.

[Beelzebud]

108. This is where I part from the dems..........

Seriously. What makes a game any different than a book or movie?

This is one issue where the democrats totally lose me.

NO to censorship.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. It is the conservatives on both sides of the aile

actually... the puritanical type

[Beelzebud]

120. Agreed. n/t

[SheepyMcSheepster]

222. yes indeedy

this thread is down right scary.

[montana500]

199. agreed. And this + rural gun control = lost elections.

nm

[Beelzebud]

213. Agreed.

[ScooterKen]

131. Here is real violence in video games.....

:D
:D
:D

[DS1]

167. Eh, you should see what we're doing on PC games, consoles

are for kids :evilgrin:

[Beelzebud]

182. Issues like this make me realize one important truth.

There are wing-nuts on both sides of the divide.

They have their puritan busy bodies, that want to regulate everything in the country, and we have ours.

[Meldread]

200. Oh, please... this is just...

I can't believe this. Don't people have more important stuff to worry about?

Alright, look here is how it is. There are video games out there for adults, children are not supposed to have them. They are on store shelves. If a parent does not want their child playing a certain type of game then that parent has an obligation to research the game before buying it or allowing their child to buy it. There is Google, there is the rating system, and there is no excuse.

'But, but, but they'll just go to someone else’s house and play!' Sure, they might but then it is only another example of bad parenting. My mother didn't allow me to go to anyone’s house as a child if she didn't personally know their parents. She told me, flat out, that if I wanted friends to come over that was fine - they'd be under her supervision - but I wasn't allowed to go to their houses. If I was friends with the parents for awhile my mother met with them, decided if she liked them, told them what she did and didn't want me doing, and then decided if she wanted me to stay with them or not. Sometimes she said yes and sometimes she said no - more often than not it was no. That's what a good parent does.

I was never allowed, until nearly an adult to roam around a store by myself, and even then my mother demanded to know where I was going, what I was going to be doing, and exactly where for me to wait until SHE was done shopping or where to find her if I wasn't going to be long. Even to this day she still does that.

I wasn't even allowed to see PG-13 Movies until I was nearly 15 years old and didn't get to see a Rated R movie until I was 17.

It's called good parenting, and yes it is hard work. It requires time, dedication, persistence, eternal vigilance, a firm understanding of boundaries and discipline. Most folks aren't qualified and that's why there are so many messed up kids. There are no excuses for a failing parent. None. Not even "I work seven jobs, am single, and have six kids to raise."

Most people aren't qualified to raise children, and if you want to support something like this I instead encourage you to support screening of all potential parents and sterilizing those that are unfit to raise children. It'll help with the world over populating and ensure that every generation raised is only raised by the most fit and qualified individuals. To be a parent should require a license that is just as hard to get as a law degree or a Ph.D.

After all, if you are so worried about bad parenting then why not just ensure that they cannot become parents in the first place - it solves the problem, right?

[da_chimperor]

229. I completely agree.

However their is a poster who is both confused about the purpose of the ESRB and feels that the games industry exists only to poison the minds of children. I feel compelled to come to the defense of one of my hobbies against what I view as a load of nonsense. Cheers.

[Meldread]

280. If they feel that way...

...then I would highly suggest for them to not allow their children to play games. The problem becomes solved, then, for them.

I would also highly encourage them to stay the hell out of other peoples business and lives as it makes them no better than someone who supports the Patriot Act. I do not support any action that limits freedom of expression or freedom of thought.

[MrBenchley]

297. High praise indeed....

"their is a poster who is both confused about the purpose of the ESRB"
You must be talking about one of the people who claimed it was a regulatory body...

[da_chimperor]

303. It could be interpreted as such if half of the post was ignored. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

211. Parents could use an education in child development.. NOW!

I'm amazed at people who defend giving kids under 17 violent entertainment. If the adults who do this.. to be seen as cool.. actually learned a few things about child development, they'd think twice.

Kids brains are not developed completely until they are considered an adult.. it's just physiology, not politics.. not censorship.. just the facts.

There are areas of their brains that develop at set points in their lives. I think somewhere around 9 or 10 is when they develop the area that concerns EMPATHY. Does anyone think that is a great time to use brutal fantasy play as entertainment?? Some parents spend more time worrying about their puppies mental development than their own kids. It's not "cool" to allow a diet of violence and cruelty for your kids... it's crappy parenting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

225. the games under discusion are rated

either M (17+) or Adult Only

[Beelzebud]

227. Exactly. My sister's kids wanted to play GTA. You know what she did?

She told them: "No!"

No government intervention required.

No trampling on protected 1st amendment right required.

No limiting my entertainment for the "sake of the children" required.

Amazing what 2 simple letters can achieve.

[Rocknrule]

243. Don't you think bullying is a more serious issue than VIDEO GAMES?

Seriously, if people had payed more attention to the real problem instead of the easy, fabricated, shallow "problem," the number of school shootings since Columbine probably would be a lot lower.

[nadinbrzezinski]

256. Agreed that is why I keep saying

the problem is not games, but society wide, far deeper.

[Beelzebud]

259. Aw to hell with it. Iraq war, 9/11 comission says we aren't ready,

oil companies screwing over the entire country.

FEMA STILL doing a lousy job in gulf region.

defense contractors ripping off the country by BILLIONS of dollars.

What do some dems decide to run with?

Violent Games and Flag Burning....

As if there was nothing more important.

AS if they WANT TO LOSE...

Fuck it. Right now it's just a worthless argument on a message board.

If the dems choose for these sorts of issues to be their platform, then i'm done with them forever.

[killbotfactory]

264. Parents? Taking notice of what their children do?

Gosh, what a concept!

[d_b]

293. I'm 24 and can't get them without an ID

Maybe Alaska is just crazy like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

296. Nah at target the other day, in California

they did not let me walk with this in teh store... and yes they asked for an ID... and it is not even M for god sakes! Oh and I do look way past 24... enjoy while it lasts

;-)