was I too harsh???my fundy sister sent me a tape from her revival at churc

[greenbriar]

with a letter that said

Please listen to it.

Iraq is not George Bush's war it is Gods war.

I haven't listend to it yet, not sure if I will but I mailed her back F9/11 and then asked her this


So if your 18 year old gets drafted and then gets killed in action, will you still think it is justified???

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Religion is a (socially sanctioned) mental illness

http://www.samharris.org/

[NNN0LHI]

28. Not the rattlesnake handlers. Tell me it ain't so n/t

[SPKrazy]

57. That's a pretty broad brush isn't it?

I think that fundamentalists of all stripes are suffering from some kind of mental problem, or addiction. (Even to religion)

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/addict.htm

[BlueEyedSon]

64. Nah. They all believe in things for which there is no basis in fact,

which make no sense, and are indistinguishable from fairy tales.

[SPKrazy]

65. As a liberal, and a Christian, I resent that! n/t

[knitter4democracy]

67. Thanks.

It's always nice to have my beliefs (that's why they're called that--beliefs) dissed with not much back-up.

Btw, what's wrong with fairy tales? ;)

[StellaBlue]

71. I have to agree

I have long thought this.

[LeftNYC]

2. Thats not harsh, thats reality...

I thought God was a pacifist?

[greenbriar]

3. I think she believes it has something to do with end times

. I may have to listen to it to see what bs she believes

[LeftNYC]

9. Intervention?

She may need one.

[Warpy]

16. Yuck, do you also have your teeth drilled

and stick needles in your eyeballs for kicks? The best place for that thing is the garbage, trust me.

Calvinists are religiously insane. Until something smacks her hard enough to wake her up, she's a lost cause.

Just keep the subjects limited to kids and the weather. Leave politics and religion out of it if you want to maintain any sort of relationship.

The bright side of all this is that some of them do eventually wake up. If you've managed to avoid antagonizing them, you can salvage something.

[Ladyhawk]

21. Personally, I'd toss it in the trash, but that's just me.

I know what she believes. I've been there.

[Solomon]

41. Me too but I still like to listen to the tripe for pure entertainment

value. That's the new thing with the fundies now. Going to the service and then buying the tape of the sermon to give to us unsaved family members who won't go to church.

When they ask I always say, "yeah I listened to it" and then I'd point out something stupid about what the guy says then tell them, that's why I refuse to bring my children there.

"Why on earth would I want to send my daughter to a place where it is preached that she is second class to man"? "That she's nothing but a spare rib". "I don't want my daughter believing that".

Then I have the gall to ask them if they have any more tapes of sermons that I can listen to because I can't believe some of the things this guy is teaching you.

The worst blow of all, is after I listened to a goodly number of them, then I can expose the formula and the pattern of the guy. Same thing every sermon. "How can you enjoy something that is nothing but a formula?" "First he does this, and then he does that and then..."

They really slink away after that because now when they go to church they can see the stupid formula since I've pointed it out to them.

Serves them right for fucking with me.

[Ladyhawk]

42. You are wise like your namesake,

but I doubt cutting babies into halves is your thing. :)

Fundy stuff sends my PTSD into overdrive. Maybe someday I could do this, but I know that my family members are too old and set in their ways to change. All it would do is increase their cognitive dissonance. It does serve them right, but if I increase their discomfort, guess who they'll take it out on? :D

[XanaDUer]

66. Lol!

That's good. :)

[knitter4democracy]

68. You're totally right about the formula.

We all figured it out at our evangelical college's required chapel. We'd even place (fake--we didn't want to get fined) bets on when the guy would cry. Seriously, after hearing hundreds of sermons every year for five years, it got really old really fast. It's all emotionalism with the evangelicals, I'm afraid.

[delete_bush]

56. God a pacifist?

The God of the O.T. is hands down the world's worst serial killer.

[Wetzelbill]

4. maybe not harsh enough

you might need to sit down with her and give her a steady working over. In fact based civil manner, but you might have to put down some of her assumptions pretty hard. She's probably a good kind-hearted person who believes propaganda. It's tough to get over some of that.

[greenbriar]

8. yes she is

her only fault is that she is married to a baptist preachers son.

he controls what movies they watch what tapes they buy ect...


she didn't used to be so fundy

[Wetzelbill]

23. yeah every once in a while

my mom says weird things about gay marriage and so on. Nothing hateful, but that the bible doesn't believe in it etc. I unload Leviticus and some other passages that are pretty brutal "eye for an eye" type stuff. I also say that in no way does it condemn lesbianism so that must be ok right? etc. You can't be mean, you just have to show them that the world isn't a narrow place and that God's love isn't a narrow thing. I'm religious, and because of my faith I am a Dem, not a Republican. Republican values with regards to greed are very antithetical to Jesus. You may also want to pick out passages from the Koran and ask her where she thinks they came from. She may say the bible, so then tell her it's the Koran. They talk all about Jesus, Mary and Joseph in Islam. I was shown several passages about Abraham, Jesus, Mary, etc. I had to guess what they came from, the Bible, Torah, or the Koran. It was a rigged exercize. They all came from the Koran. I couldn't tell the difference.

[IChing]

39. She is in a cult, tell your parents, also look at my post.

"he controls what movies they watch what tapes they buy ect..."

[0007]

61. Then I'd do some heavy duty quotes from the "Bhagavad Gita"

and talk strongly about what Swami Nikhilananda sez about Christians and Christian Wars.

[knitter4democracy]

69. Wow, a PK who stuck with the faith?

I know many who didn't. They hated all the rules and crap and left it all behind or found a middle way instead.

That's too bad. Of course, I'd love to chat with him, but he wouldn't listen, as I'm the wrong kind of Christian and the wrong sex. I knew many of those at my evangelical college, and it is possible to get through to them, but it takes a guy to do it.

[MadHound]

5. Sounds like she is an Old Testament Christian,

IE not a Christian at all. Christ was all about pacificism, turn the other cheek, do unto others. . ., swords into plowshares, etc. etc. How sad she doesn't even know her own religion.

[acmejack]

6. You are quite tactful

I would have mailed her a dead fish or some such token of my esteem. Well maybe not, but I really resent proselytism in any form.

[patrice]

7. So the tape contains the "case" for "it's God's war"?

I hope you outline it here.

Though there isn't much you can say that will get through.

I just can't understand how these people think they know God so perfectly. God is indeed Dead.

[LSK]

10. dupe

[greenbriar]

a revival is when a guest preacher

usually a fire and brimstone you are going to hell unless you get saved guy comes and preaches 5 nights in a row to the same people who are supposed to already be saved. They then are supposed to be fired up and go out and spread the word.



OUR church (not my sisters) leaves me fired up each week without a revival or the fire and death doom and gloom...

OUr preacher teaches us tips to be great people with great outlooks

[Radio_Lady]

55. Our Unitarian fellowship doesn't even have a "preacher" -- every

Sunday, one of the members leads the service. The expression is that "we are not a church, but a fellowship, because we choose to be 'lay led'." It's such a great idea.

As a grandmother born Jewish, with a variety of faiths now represented by my children, stepchildren, and grandchildren, I fail to see how religion has done much to unite human beings as understanding, compassionate, and necessarily better people. I don't care if you believe in Mohammed, Buddha, Jesus, Moses or "the one true and living God," whatever. I wish religion had really achieved its goals. If humanity is an "experiment" by a loving and attentive superpower God, I'm sorry, but I think it is an experiment that has largely failed.

Sorry you have a sister who has turned out this way. I don't know how I could ever handle someone like her. Perhaps this is one time when I'm glad I'm an only child.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[LSK]

11. what exactly is a "revivial" ?

Its one of those things I hear mentioned but dont know exactly what it is.

And no you were not too harsh.

Most importantly, the rule of the land is NOT the bible. It is the Constitution.

[Imagine My Surprise]

22. A revival is pretty much what is sounds like...

certain sects of Christians have the need to be routinely (at least twice a year) "revived" by some outside preacher coming into their midst. Such "revivals" tend to last a week though some last longer.
Baptists believe in "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved" -- whereas Methodists (and their ilk) believe that one can "fall from Grace".

I believe neither though I once preached the pulpits of both. I left that non-sense and gravitated naturally towards Eastern paths.

[sickinohio]

31. Not all Baptists believe that

once saved, always saved (or "once in grace, always in grace"). Take the Freewill Baptists. They hold "revivals" (my Dad used to hold Tent Revivals when I was little) to bring in the the lost souls that "back slide" (accepted Christ in their life then turned away), or to bring in the souls that have never been saved. They do some pretty heavy-duty preachin, shoutin, prayin and singin at Revivals!!

[knitter4democracy]

70. They can be genuine.

Much of the time, though, I found them to be pretty contrived. I've only participated in a couple of truly genuine ones, and it wasn't what the preacher said or anything like that but just what seemed to happen.

[Wickerman]

12. Listen and comment

on all the statements that aren't reinforced by biblical text. If the case is made for this being God's war, the speaker should have ample support in the Bible. It certainly won't be on the tape you listen to as the bible verses don't exist. Therefore, the statements are someone's opinion and crap. Blasphemy in God's name.

[Imagine My Surprise]

13. It is unfortunate that you are associated with her...

but under no circumstances should you feel obligated to listen to that crap.

[greenbriar]

18. My first thought was to toss it in the trash,

I love my sister. She is my favorite one out of 4 girls. I never thought she would do this crap

i don't know if I will listen or not to it.

I just dont' know

[Imagine My Surprise]

30. On second thought...

listen to it. Stomach it if you can. By doing so, you can address certain points the will naturally occur to you as you listen to it. I would suggest you have a pencil and paper or a tape recorder around to record your thoughts.

Believe me, this is in all liklihood a no/win situation between you and your sister. She has fallen into this mindless path and usually it takes a rather jolting event to jar or begin to jar her back into her senses. I've been there, so I know what it's like.

If you can be civil to one another, that's a good thing in itself.

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Not harsh at all. Very reasonable

[Cobalt Violet]

15. No, your not too harsh.

Thousands of people are dying. Thousands will continue to die.

[Mr_Spock]

17. Nice, very appropriate. You are dealing with mentally ill people...

...they believe in magic, we don't.

[stopbush]

19. Fear, Ignorance and Guilt.

Ask your sister to take a step or two back from that unholy trinity that forms the basis of Xtian belief in this country and get some persepective. She'll feel a lot better.

And, yes...it IS god's war...and he wants W and the Xtians defeated. :)

[IChing]

20. Jesus loved war and hated peace SHE IS IN A CULT!!!

You should watch it and just tear it apart according to what Jesus taught.

God's War
God's Military
God's torture
God's whisky pete
God's lies
God's oil
God's science

Give me a break, what kind of education does your sister have?

She is lost in a cult.
Please goggle cults and the signs of cults.


http://www.religion-cults.com/
Dysfunctional Churches
Ronald Enroth, Ph.D.
Cult Observer, 1992, Volume 9, No. 4
It is common practice for churchgoers in American society to refer to their own congregation as their “church family.” Students away at college make reference to their “home church.” Church people sing hymns about being part of “the family of God.” Parents often employ family imagery to convey spiritual content to their children.

As behavioral scientists remind us all too often, that most basic of social institutions—the family—is increasingly subject to frailty and failure. The label that is currently popular for unhealthy families is “dysfunctional.” Unfortunately, sociologists of religion (as well as many ex?members) know that some churches are also dysfunctional, even to the point of being spiritually abusive. If truth in advertising standards could be applied to religion, some churches would be required to display a sign reading: “Warning: this church could be harmful to your spiritual and psychological health.”

Farfetched? Not if my own research of the past few years has any validity at all. Sadly, spiritual and pastoral abuse is more prevalent than most people believe. Like child abuse, it often goes undetected, or else it is strongly denied. Spiritual abuse is inflicted by persons who are accorded respect and honor in society by virtue of their positions of religious authority and leadership. When such leaders violate the sacred trust they have been given, when they abuse their authority, and when they misuse their ecclesiastical office to control their congregations, the results can be catastrophic.

What are the hallmarks of unhealthy, aberrant churches? The key indicator is control?oriented leadership, ministers who have a need to “lord it over the flock.” Abusive leaders demand submission and unquestioning loyalty. The person who raises uncomfortable questions or does not “get with the program” is cast aside. Guilt, fear, and intimidation are used to manipulate and control vulnerable members, especially those who have been taught to believe that questioning their pastor is comparable to questioning God.>>>>snip

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/enroth_ronald_dysfunctional_churches.htm

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_indexes/index_tpcol_study_criticalthinking_pseudosciencefact.htm

[Swamp Rat]

27. AND, cult "lords" often fleece the flock

Humans are so gullible! :eyes:

[CrispyQ]

33. Nice work!!

:applause:

[Swamp Rat]

34. Viel danke

[Lerkfish]

24. actually, if she feels its "God's war", her 18 yr should ALREADY BE THERE.

(not that I wish your family ill).

but I'm tired of fundy/repuke double standards on this issue: if the war is noble or just, why not send your own kids FIRST before anyone else's?

[Vinca]

25. Wow - it must be brutal having a fundy relative.

I guess, if you want to have good relations with her, I'd toss the tape in the trash and let it go. If she presses you, I'd be curious to know why God has decided to go to war and why so many of "his people" are money hungry, self-centered criminals.

[greenbriar]

26. oh gawd, my whole freakin family is fundy

but my brohter and one sister are starting to see through the bullshit

[joefree1]

29. Don't watch it, send it back

It will be some slick presentation of their view on the world guaranteed to scare/guilt your life view. Brainwashing works, why tempt it?

Better not to get in a war of competing media.

Better you ask your sister to sit down and discuss the facts. She get's three minutes to state her position and you get three minutes to rebut. No interrupting. This will give you time to find out why she's medicating herself with religion while discussing her fears.

[Neil Lisst]

32. Then she's among the most dangerous fundies.

They believe that several conditions are being met so that the END TIMES can occur. They believe this Iraq war is about a Biblical prophecy involving Babylon, which, of course, was the center of Mesopotamia in Biblical days. Today, it's Iraq.

I wouldn't listen to the tape because I would tell her I reject entirely the premise that some ancient text of fables and stories has language that some backwoods preacher has decided means the war in Iraq.

My advice is not to try to convince her of anything. Tell her to keep her crap to herself, and let it be.

[Critters2]

35. You might point out

that taking a stand on a partisan political issue is a violation of IRS regs. I think even fundies like their 501c3 status. But then again, if the war is such a great idea, they should be willing to pay for it.

[jbnow]

36. I assume it would be an honor to die

in God's war.(?)

In fact I'd assume she'd encourage her child to volunteer for God's war.

I knew that old testament God did a lot of smiting, but I thought Jesus was the way and the truth now. He was more the "blessed are the peacemaker" type.

But...and don't tell God I said this...is this is his war, he's not doing so good. You'd think God could get a quick victory.

I know it is hard to have fundy siblings. I have such a sister and I just deal with her as little as possible.

On election day she called me on her way to church. They were meeting to make sure bush won. I told her he wasn't going to unless they rigged it. She said "If that's what it takes, so be it" in such a wicked voice, it was creepy. Who was she?

Recently she sent me a copy of an e-mail she was sending to her friend. In it she said " The angry left is desperately trying to blame President Bush and FEMA for the slow response to the problem in New Orleans. "
I wrote back to ask if she'd met me. That even worse then the angry left I was part of the angry center who blamed bush and FEMA for the slow response to the problem in New Orleans. Not because of political leanings but because it was true.

She thanked me for telling her and she'd no longer try to share the truth with me.

OK.

Let us know if you see what she sent. It might help us understand.

I really like God, but if they are right about who God is, what he wants and who he hates...
Doesn't matter. They aren't right. That might be the God of false religion, but it isn't God.

[B Calm]

37. Why would her 18 year old get drafted? You'd think he would already

have signed up with the marines and killing people for God..

[mcscajun]

38. Not too harsh at all. I'd have sent back the tape, unwatched,

or unlistened to, as the case may be, with a note to the effect that if it's "God's War" -- it doesn't need any support; God can see to its outcome better than she...or you.

[B Calm]

40. Using just a little common sense, never ever enters their mind!

[greenbriar]

43. no, I can't wait for all the bullshit to come out

and just wait till I ask her about WMD?

and the paid propaganda

[greenbriar]

44. Hey I GOT a thread in that other board...

they are calling bs on my sisters letter... wish I could ram that letter down their throats!

[renate]

45. is it even remotely worth your time?

I wouldn't even dream of listening to crap just because somebody sent it to me.

[greenbriar]

46. that is what i am debating

I could listen to it and knock every point down with facts or I can ignore it and let my sister feel she did her deed.


Funny thing is my family Hubby and daughter and me go to church but our church is more modern and I feel we have better and stronger relationships with god and we do not live in fear or the dark ages.


guess that is the difference in ages.

[IChing]

47. Watch Plan 9 from outer space first then God's War

Take it in that context like when you are watch Science Fiction Mystery Theater, you might be able to stomach it. Then watch in the context of a cult indoctrination film
for I really think she is controled and in a cult.

[renate]

63. what do you lose by just ignoring this tape?

You don't need to prove anything to her.
Does she feel like she needs to defend her beliefs to you?

I think that when the relationship means more than being right does, it's probably best to just ignore this kind of thing. I'm really blessed in that my extended family is almost all liberal, but because we're all close, we sort of have a tacit understanding that the Bush voter amongst us is not to be hassled, and he doesn't hassle us. We gently agree to disagree, because for politics and politicians to separate members of a loving family would be absolutely, absolutely horrible.

[knitter4democracy]

72. I wouldn't watch it.

I would take her out to lunch and explain that you were offended by what she did. Let her do most of the talking, but be firm about what is and isn't okay when it comes to her church. Explain that you sent back your tape so that she could understand why you aren't interested in what some preacher has to say about the war--that you've done more research than he has and just can't believe in what he's selling.

If she gets really offended, just quietly ask why WWI wasn't the End of Times or WWII? They fit the definitions she's using much better, and yet, we're all still here. Ask her why her church seems so obsessed with it when Jesus was more concerned with the Two Greatest Commandments and the Beatitudes, which go against war and killing our enemies. See what she says, and go from there.

I'd take her on one on one without her husband, if at all possible. It sounds like she needs a breath of fresh air.

[WolverineDG]

48. watch it for the credits

get the name of the production company & anyone associated with the production itself, then start googling names. :)

dg

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. This is my opinion

The tape is unimportant. Listen or not, it doesn't matter.

Your love for your sister is what matters. Don't let something so unimportant come between you and your sister. Life is short and family is, in the long run, all we have. If she continues to try and pull you into something you are not interested in, tell her honestly that you love her and you don't want this to come between you.

[Yollam]

50. If I had a fundy sister...

...she would not have gotten such a warm reception from me. I have zero tolerance for those people.

[Cha]

51. I'm so sick of this twisted religious

anti-logic..Jesus Christ was the Prince OF Peace! Is she refering to the 1st Testament? The Angry God?

bush is the one who lied us into this war..did God make him do that?

After she sees "F9/11"..maybe you can send her "Homecoming"..someday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5505815

[lateo]

52. You weren't harsh at all.

IMO you weren't but I bet your fundy sister gets her panties in a knot.

[Marr]

53. I'd chastize her for her calling god a warmonger and for assuming to

speak for the lord.

I'd tell her she should pray for forgiveness, and I'd tell her I don't hate her- only her sin.

[donheld]

54. If it's gods war then let god provide his military instead of ours.

Why do we have to provide the men and women to fight it. Can't god find his own?

[foreigncorrespondent]

58. Tell her...

...if it is Gods war, then tell God to go fight it.

[Qanisqineq]

59. absolutely not too harsh

One of my sisters became a born-again evangelical fundy lunatic a few years ago... when she met her now husband. She claims God told her George Bush would win in November 2004 and that this is God's war. As I am the wife of a soldier that fought in it, she knows better than to open her mouth around me. I just hear about it through my parents and other sister.

However, the research I do involves evolution so she has decided to start buying me books arguing against evolution.

I love my sister and avoid arguing with her, but if she sent me something like that I would call her and give her a piece of my mind. It would be the last straw for me.

[0007]

60. Absolutely Not.....

[area51]

62. What you did is absolutely not harsh.

She needs to be awakened & start thinking for herself, & thinking of the consequences of her actions (support of Bush's war). I've seen that republinazis generally don't understand the concept of actions having consequences.