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Mark Crispin Miller: "I Promise You Kerry And I Had The Conversation"

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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:42 AM
Original message
Mark Crispin Miller: "I Promise You Kerry And I Had The Conversation"
on CSPAN now.

will NOT back down that he talked to Kerry about the stolen election
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. not many DU viewers this morning.... join us over in GDP?
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. He surely sounds sincere. I think the basic point : why just dismiss it?
Let's have fair, free open elections. You know - like we advocate in OTHER countries.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. PLEASE EXPLAIN! I know nothing about this. This is so important!
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 09:13 AM by Peace Patriot
What's up? Talked to Kerry when? To what purpose? What did Kerry say? What is he "not backing down" from? Who was challenging MCM? Please, please, don't leave it at this! It's too late for me to catch the broadcast (and it's not an easy thing for me to do). I'll try the GD forum you've provided. But I'm sure there are many others who want to know, and may not have time to track it down. PLEASE EXPLAIN!
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matcom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Kerry denies he told Mark he thinks the election was stolen from him
Miller stands by the fact that Kerry said just that and that Kerry talked to Chris Dodd and Dodd told him they had investigated and there wasn't anything 'there'.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. He talked to DODD?! Dodd is filthy on the H.A.V.A. electronic voting...
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 09:37 AM by Peace Patriot
...boondoggle, in my opinion. Bushite corporations owning and controlling the vote tabulation with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code. That's our Dem leadership. Are these people insane? Maybe some are--or stupid, or fearful. But SOME of them are just dirty on it--and I think Dodd's one of them.

I always thought Kerry was an intelligent guy. Can't he see how NUTS this is? Insecure, hackable machines, requiring $4 billion in funding, all into the pockets of Bush partisans, controlled by Bush partisans, AND INCLUDING *SECRET* VOTE TABULATION FORMULAE!

Jeez. And he consults DODD, one of the architects of it? (And guess who one of the other architects of our fraudulent election system is: Rep. Bob Ney!)
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. the fact that Ney has been connected to the Abramoff/Delay scandal may be
a blessing in more ways than expected. Of course it will be good for the people of Ohio to get rid of the scoundrel, and for that reason the nation as well, but I am hoping that he has some knowledge about the elections that will prove fruitful in our attempts to expose the election theft of the past. Certainly he has some information , as Chair of the House Administration Committee, that could shed some light on the theft. I hope when he is under oath, some poignant question on the issue are forthcoming.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
40. For one, he can explain why Ammendments to HAVA have languished
In committee without a hearing. Every year. Since HAVA was passed.

-Hoot
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. Kerry KNOWS machines are rigged - Read Parry's interview with Jon Winer.
People here at DU aren't GETTING that it was someone in Kerry's OFFICE who made the remark about Miller and did so in a dumb fashion.

Kerry knows about machine fraud and has his TOP investigator from IranContra and BCCI working on it - Jonathan Winer - who just happens to specialize in information security.

What Winer knows Kerry knows.

If anything, Kerry may have said more than he needed to share with Miller, and backed off to preserve their own plans for exposing the machines.


Jenny Backus badly handled the back up job, but Miller and others blame Kerry without factoring in Parry's interview with Jon Winer just after the Miller dustup.

People anxious to view all stories through just one-dimension are adding to the dumbing down of the left to match the dumbing down of the right, imo.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Very interesting...
Got a link?

They could be setting up the perfect storm for mid-2006.

All the Dems need is a majority in the House or Senate and it all falls apart.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Robert Parry operates consortiumnews...
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 02:53 PM by blm
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/110505.html

There is alot of quoting of Miller about election fraud in this article and what Miller thinks happened with Kerry after the election, but the important FACT to note is that Winer is part of this story at all and is talking to Parry.

If Winer knows about it, then that means they are WORKING ON IT. Unfortunately, many DUers don't know enough about Winer and Kerry to understand the import of Winer's involvement on the issue of machine fraud.

Hopefully that won't last.
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. I wish I could be as hopeful as you.
"If Winer knows about it, then that means they are WORKING ON IT. Unfortunately, many DUers don't know enough about Winer and Kerry to understand the import of Winer's involvement on the issue of machine fraud."

But this is from the article you linked:

"On “Democracy Now,” Miller said Kerry bent to the will of his campaign advisers to concede, even though his vice presidential running mate, John Edwards, favored holding out until more information was in.

Based on reporting for Fooled Again, Miller said Kerry told Edwards in a phone call that Shrum and other advisers insisted that a concession was the best course. “They say that if I don’t pull out, they (Kerry’s political opponents) are going to call us sore losers,” Miller said, recounting the substance of Kerry’s phone call to Edwards.

Miller said Edwards responded, “So what if they call us sore losers?” But Kerry pressed ahead with his decision to concede.

“Kerry’s caving in like that gave an enormous gift to the right wing,” Miller said. “They (the conservatives) could now claim, ‘well, even their (the Democrats’) candidate doesn’t think it was stolen. And they (Kerry and his advisers) left … the American people hanging out to dry there.”


Sounds to me like the 2004 election is over and Kerry lost -- regardless of how many votes he got in Ohio.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. That was MILLER'S assumption. I stressed that you consider the FACTS
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 06:21 PM by blm
in Parry's article. What Miller THINKS reKerry is fine as his subjective assumptions, but none of it is backed up in certain fact.

It is well known what Miller thinks happened, but what is little known here at DU is what FACTS are part of the story.

ANYONE with a working knowledge of Winer's role in IranContra and BCCI would be overjoyed to hear that he has been brought in to the issue of voting machine fraud.

And as far as Ohio goes there is no evidence to be had - Winer clearly states the machines are set up for one time use and then erased so NO EVIDENCE can be had,

The machines need to be exposed and secured BEFORE an election - which means the DNC needs to do the job for all the Dem candidates on the ballot.

After the election is too late.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #48
76. If you are right, then there is no way it can last.
Thank you.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. part of the story here...
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry does not deny they had a conversation
if that's what Miller said just now, then Miller is "standing behind" the non-controversial part of the story.

Kerry admitted they met, but flatly denied he told Miller he thought he won in 2004.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. he repeated the same thing he said before
That Kerry thinks it was stolen, but his fellow senators don't want to hear it.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. this is where Kerry fails as a leader (flame me if you like). He should
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 10:44 AM by mod mom
stand up for the truth and not fall prey to the peer pressure of others. I have heard that he must work within the system, but I don't buy this. His refusal to fight for his votes have caused the further continuance of a war criminal pushing his immoral war and the horrific crimes committed in OUR name. It is time to stand up and denounce the fraudulent election and bring the criminals to justice.

THE WORLD IS WATCHING, EITHER WE FIGHT OR WE ARE COMPLICIT IN THEIR CRIMES!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Not a matter of peer pressure - does saying too much blow the entire case
if flagged too early?

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Peer pressure in the sense that other Senators persuaded the concession.
I can understand your point had 2000 and 2002 had never happened, but it did and not only were those thefts revelant, but there were such blantant abuse in Ohio that flashing red flags should have been going off. A year later, with much more information available, still silence. The investigation was done by citizens without funding by those in power. The DNC, spent $500,000 of our money, only to avoid and disregard those election reform groups that were busy investigating, self funded no less.

For several months I believed that Kerry and his associates were working behind the scenes to expose the truth. I long ago gave up this hope. Does your comment make the point that you feel he may still be waiting for a time to expose this theft?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. It's based on the FACT that Kerry has Jon Winer working on machine fraud
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 11:55 AM by blm
and it's the same Jon Winer who helped him Crack open IranContra and BCCI.

Winer specializes in information security.

And it was the duty of the DNC to ensure the security of the voting machines foe EVERY Dem candidate on the ballot in 2004. It needed to be worked on for 2 years after 2002 was stolen, but MacAuliffe didn't believe in machine fraud.

And it's not something that can be dealt with AFTER an election because the machines that were rigged were set up for one use and then all evidence is erased.

This is something that Winer mentioned in his interview with Parry after the Miller dustup.
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. This wasn't a crime against Kerry, it was against the American People!
I tend to agree that Kerry, or SOMEBODY in power should stand about this. This isn't about Kerry, Edwards, or even the Democratic Party. This is about the American People!! If our leaders can't protect the basic fundamentals of democracy, what is their function?
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. What I don't understand is
why the Kerry-Edwards team didn't have a strategy for this worst-case election day scenario. We all knew there was a high probability that the Repugs would try to steal the election again. The Kerry campaigned geared up with 10,000 lawyers to make sure that every vote would be counted and that every vote would count.

So, on the day after the election, why was there even a question of how Kerry would handle this situation? Instead, we read about how Edwards wanted to challenge the results and other senators advised against it. Somehow I had imagined that they would all be ready for this eventuality. Silly me!
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. Yeah, that's the part of that I find very weird. At first I felt very
offended by the DNC plea for money that night to insure that "every vote is counted." I still am. I sent money, and the next thing I knew Kerry was conceding.

But the abruptness of the concession gives me pause. I don't think I believe this report of the "sore loser" conversation with Edwards--or I don't believe that's what was really behind it. I've thought about it a lot, and I am reserving judgment on the whole thing. They were challenging the most dangerous people on earth, in my opinion, and were in a position to possibly disempower them, and, if they gained the WH, to investigate their many war crimes. So this was no light matter--or no PR matter--of fear of being seem as a "sore loser." It feels a lot heavier than that.

Also, there is the mind-boggling puzzle of the entire Dem Party leadership's SILENCE, throughout the establishment of this fraudulent election SYSTEM, with Bushite corporations gaining control over vote tabulation with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code and no paper trail.

I have thoughts about that--a complex picture of corruption, collusion, ignorance, distance from the people, and fear. But I still don't understand it. And my original question about it still nags me: Are the Democrats insane? (Did the anthrax get to them and fry their brains or something?)

Seriously, somebody tell how they could be silent about Bushites counting our votes in secret. Am I naive to think that they actually want to win elections, and wanted to win that one?

Kerry faced an extremely hostile Congress AND press, and then Dem Party leaders made it plain they wouldn't support a challenge. Maybe that's all it was--it just seemed hopeless, and why risk what the Bushites and the Bushite-controlled media surely would have done to him (ripped him to shreds) if there was no hope for success and his own Party leaders weren't fully or even partly behind it.

Maybe the electronic voting conspiracy (which had to include some Dems) is something that happened under his radar, and he had extremely bad advice and DISINFORMATION about it (say, from Christopher Dodd). He had a lot on his mind; couldn't keep up with all details; relied on others; they were corrupt.

That still doesn't explain some facts--like, how could ANY honest Dem could be quiet about Wally O'Dell and the Ahmansons' and their secret programming? It's so blatant.

Anyway, as I said. I dunno. I don't feel I have enough information to make a judgment of Kerry on this. He seems a decent, intelligent man. I would find it hard to believe he was collusive in a Bush win, or in destroying our election system. But I wouldn't find it hard to believe of Dodd and some others.

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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I don't think that is what Miller said
I was under the impression that Kerry told him he agreed that he thought there had been voter fraud throughout the nation but especially in Ohio. I don't think Kerry ever said he thought he won though it's six to one and a half dozen to the other.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. it's safe to assume Salon quoted Miller correctly
Salon has credibility that would be lost if this was not a correct quote of Miller. If it was a misquote, it would have been corrected immediately, which it has not:

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2005/11/14/miller/

"He told me he now thinks the election was stolen."

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, my estimation of Kerry goes way up if "he now thinks the election
was stolen"--but he should have anticipated this when they handed $4 billion to Bushite companies to count the votes with SECRET PROGRAMMING CODE!

I think the clubbiness of the Senate has really become an obstacle to intelligence. It seems to fry Senators' brains. House members, too--so I guess it's just a general phenomenon in Washington DC. Scrambled brains for breakfast, every day.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Why would your estimation of him go up, when he denies he said that?
Assuming he said it privately to Miller, it appears he's now too cowardly to make the statement publicly. That incident, along with his stubborn refusal to admit he was wrong to give * the power to go to war in Iraq, lose him more respect points in my book.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. why do you believe he said it?
you must have not cared much for Kerry in the first place.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Because I trust Miller more than Kerry.
And btw, I worked very hard for Kerry during the election. I manned phone banks, donated money, and hosted a Kerry house party. Since that point he has bitterly disappointed me, and I frankly do not believe much of what he says anymore.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. what would Kerry's motive be for lying?
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Because he doesn't want to be called, in essence,
SORE LOSERMAN, by admitting the election was stolen. Since the moment he conceded he's been running for 2008, and didn't want to get smeared by the right for protesting the 2004 theft. We've been talking about this for a year. I know you've been in on many if not all of those conversations.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. did he confess his true feelings to anyone else?
why did he confide in Miller, in your opinion?
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. I don't know. But I believe Miller when he states the conversation
took place. You may disagree. And that's AOK.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Conyers also resists asserting the election was stolen
Conyers isn't running for president, and Conyers doesn't seem to be afraid of the Right, and yet he said this:

from Dec. 12, 2004

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/12/21/conyers/index1.html

Q.Do you think you'll ever be able to prove that there was a coordinated effort to steal the election?

A.We're not trying to prove that. This is what we're discussing: We're trying to improve the situation wherever we can to make a better voting system in the states.

Q.But a lot of the people who support your efforts desperately want you to prove that there was a conspiracy. If the e-mails we get are any indication, a lot of them believe that the existence of a conspiracy has already been proven.

A.Well, you know, a citizen's point of view may be different from a federal lawmaker's point of view. The citizens are entitled to form their own opinions. They can assert that easily. A member of Congress, the ranking member of Judiciary ... I can't make those assertions without proof. That would be reckless.

Q.So you don't make them.

A.No, I don't.

Q.What do you do?

A.We pass laws. We make laws and we try to correct the system through the legislative process.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Please remember that Dec 12 was prior to the seating of the electors +
conyers was trying to convince Senators to contest the Ohio seating. He was being caustious and diplomatic at the time. On top of this many new revelations and facts have been brought forward. Ask him now. Look, even Jimmy Carter has come forward to say that Gore won the 2000 election. Many others have turned the corner as well. Kerry should do the right thing and speak out!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Gore did win in 2000
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 10:56 AM by Cocoa
he very clearly got more votes in Florida.

edit to add: Conyers never changed his position on delcaring 2004 stolen. He still is focussed on finding and fixing the many problems in Ohio, as opposed to proving 2004 stolen, just as he was in that Salon interview.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. I have reason to believe he knows the truth. This information has kept me
investigating the Ohio thefts. Had I believed that the case was not there to change the results, I would have returned to employment instead I remain focused on exposing the truth that the elections are fraudulent. we'r
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. "The citizens are entitled to form their own opinions."
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 10:57 AM by MyPetRock
Agreed. The election was stolen and Kerry has not publicly denounced the theft. This is my opinion.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. and Conyers supports your right to hold that opinion
but just like Kerry, Conyers is not publicly denouncing the theft.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. It doesn't exempt Kerry from his responsibility to the electorate
if Conyers also doesn't denounce the theft. Just proves they are both cowards, imho.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. I don't think either Conyers nor Kerry is a coward
you may disagree.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. Or he has a better chance of exposing machines without Miller's spotlight
on his intentions.

Obviously you think Miller is a more legitimate REPORTER than Robert Parry, who happens to be one of the best INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS of the last 30 years.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I believe Miller when he says Kerry told him the election was stolen.
Do you think Miller is lying?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. No. I believe Kerry knows the election was stolen. I also believe he knows
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 12:39 PM by blm
that saying more than that to a journalist was more than he intended and could prove harmful to his overall case if it alerts the RW machine he is trying to counter with his quiet investigation of the machines. Miller also likely overstated the conversation even as Kerry's office understated the conversation.

But there were GREAT CLUES being missed by alot of DUers in the overall story.

Jonathan Winer is working with Kerry on the machine fraud. People here should be thrilled that Winer is involved since he helped Kerry crack IranContra and BCCI. Robert Parry talking to Winer about this is also significant - Parry was the investigative reporter on IranContra and BCCI stories.

But there are too many DUers viewing this Miller episode through one-dimension and not putting all the facts together. I'm guessing they don't understand the significance of Parry and Winer to the machine fraud investigation.

What's really dumb is people trying to turn this into a Kerry v Miller situation, when human nature dictates that one said too much and the other repeated it overdramatically to make a more compelling broadcast appearance. Even given that it was Jenny Backus who represented Kerry and did so poorly.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. This DUer is thrilled! You keep up the good work blm, you are appreciated
nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
59. I believe Mark because Kerry has a history of waffling
and Mark does not. And if I have to choose between someone who is actively working to reform elections and a play-it-safe politician, I chose the former.

Kerry's spokesperson blew it with her incredibly stupid handling. Maybe the Senator is cursed in the people around him.

Kerry has again blown an opportunity at leadership. And, that's a shame.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. And that's also an assumption. I agree Backus handled it badly, but why
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 06:01 PM by blm
turn it into a Kerry v Miller situation?

Kerry is not a known waffler, that's RW media machine spin.

And why is it that so few here at DU even UNDERSTAND the significance that Jonathan Winer is talking about machine fraud?

I am ashamed that such a vibrant board can be completely unable to process the most important FACT we learned from the entire Miller dustup through Robert Parry's interview ---

If Winer is talking about machine fraud, then the chance is 99.9% that he and Kerry are working on it to expose it.

Kerry probably didn't want to compromise the investigative process so he asked his office to downplay the conversation that Miller likely dramatized as one almost always does to make for a more compelling retelling of the story.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I agree. We shouldn't waste our time on this. n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Not so much wasting time, as why turn it into something it's not.
And why not be thrilled with the excellent news re machine fraud as an issue to be investigated that came out of the dustup?

That's the part that leaves me scratching my head at DU in general.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. I didn't care for care for Kerry but I voted for him because the
alternative was unacceptable. Since when does believing what Mark Miller said hinge on liking or not Kerry? Good grief. Mark Miller is an honorable man and I believe him. Kerry, with all his nuances and his what not, denying he said something sounds like him. Does it make him Satan? No. But it makes him Kerry. He's a human, not god and therefore I can choose how I feel about a situation and him without prejudice from others.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
45. *
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 02:23 PM by mzmolly
Replied to wrong person. ;)
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. does anyone know when Washington Journal might be
replayed or where there might be a videoclip of the Mark Crispin Miller Segment? I missed it too.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. WJ repeating now
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
38. Was WJ were the clip ran? n/t
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. recent Washington Journal programs are viewable at C-span's website
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Kicked - because Mark Crispin Miller is now a DUer
Thanks for holding their feet to the fire!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Right on!
:kick:
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. All right! Do you know his user name? He was great! K&R. n/t
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. Mark Crispin Miller is his username, with lines between
I think.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Exactly so: mark_crispin_miller
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
57. I'd like Kerry to become a DUer so he couldn't be called a liar
anymore either.

Mr. Miller needs to focus on the election instead of Sen. Kerry, as he himself said to me when I suggested his ego was getting a tad out of hand.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
44. I believe they had the conversation, I just think they both had a
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 02:21 PM by mzmolly
different impression of what EXACTLY was being discussed.

Miller said "you were robbed senator" Kerry said "I know."

Miller was talking about the election, Kerry was discussing votes.

Just my humble opinion.

I don't believe Kerry denied having a conversation, he denied the "stolen election" portion.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Yep, "you wuz robbed!" can mean a lot of things
In baseball, for example, it can mean the ump made a bad call, you had a bad day, a fan got in the way of your home run hit, the pitcher deliberately hit you, depriving you of the opportunity to knock one out of the park...

The statement is ambiguous, at best. For MCM--who for the record has done fine work on the entire election voting issue--to take that further than a gracious acknowledgement by a candidate of a supporter is, IMHO, a bridge too far.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Agreed.
It's become so very ridiculous hasn't it?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Sadly, it is distracting from the REAL ISSUE--election fraud
And the GOP is probably pleased as hell that it is dividing some segments of the activist wing of the Democratic Party. Wasting time lining up behind MCM or JFK over what seems to me to be a misinterpretation of intent is just counterproductive, and plays into the GOP game plan.

The enemies are DIEBOLD and the GOP. But hey, that's just my take on it! Others' mileage will likely vary....
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Great points.
:hi:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I'm just a pragmatist, and I want the Democrats to win in 06 and 08
If we have to drag this country to the left with singular heaves on the line, yo ho, heave, ho, over time, let's do it. I cannot get overwrought about specific ideologies and issues, I really am looking at the long-term, big picture.

But that's just me--at this point, ANYTHING is better than the crap we all endure on a daily basis under this regime! :hi:
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
51. Why aren't more Dems outraged about the stolen election?
This should be up there with the Iraq war. We never hear about it in the media, unless it's a joke on Leno.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Jokes have a way of turning into stories, so take heart
Remember when the Asshole in Chief stood up at the Correspondent's Dinner, and did a ha-ha, ho-ho slide show about the hunt for WMD's in the White House??? He even enlisted "his little DOG, too!" (use Margaret Hamilton Wicked Witch voice) in the hunt under the desk and behind the curtains. A real yuck fest....only no one is laughing now, and if we could harness all the goddamn backpedaling going on in DC, we'd generate enough electricity to light the eastern seaboard for a year or more.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. I don't deny they had the conversation. I think it was misrepresented
Why does Mark Crispin Miller not just do what he said he wanted to do and center on the stolen election, instead of worrying about bad reviews and a Senator who disputes that the conversation went exactly as Miller said it did.

Is this really the important bits.

When I suggested that Miller had a bit of an ego problem, that he took a bit of party chat, and turned it into something that Kerry never said, and indeed Miller agrees he never said those EXACT words, his answer to me was that we should focus on the real issues.

So, Mr. Miller, why don't you focus on the real issues, and stop playing "he said, he said."

You yourself reported that the conversation went "You were robbed, Senator" "I know" followed by what Kerry is doing regarding the crooked elections.

By your own account, he did NOT say "I now know that the election was stolen." Those were not his words.

And it is not your job to drag the man out to a place he obviously does not want to be right now. And there are DUers who agree he doesn't belong front and center. It is not your call to make. He is doing something, by your own account.

I'm not calling you a liar. But you are coming very close to calling Kerry a liar. I don't think that's too cool.

So, sir, why don't you take your own advice and focus on the election reform instead of bad reviews and a dispute with a Senator. M'kay?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. WE are the ones who are having this ridiculous contention.
Not MCM. Did you watch the clip? I think you might enjoy it. It wasn't about John Kerry, it was about election fraud and Mark handled the drooling haters with skill and grace. Try it!
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I'll try, but I'm on a dialup mac. But what do you mean?
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 04:02 PM by LittleClarkie
Mark is a DUer. He announced this conversation, and then took offense when Kerry's people disputed exactly how it had gone. And he's the one who had a problem with the way his book was reviewed by Salon.

So, you're saying that the leading headline in this thread is not what the interview was about? But Kerry was mentioned right?

What I want to know is why Mark, rather than coming close to calling Kerry a liar, can't admit that the two of them saw the conversation differently? And that perhaps it was not his place to say what he said about the conversation.

Mark moved the focus. We wouldn't be talking about this without his discussion of this conversation.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. My impression is, he's moved on. Try to catch the clip.
I think it will set your mind at rest about where the focus of Mark's project is. :hi:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. That's a good thing, let's hope everyone else will move on with him!
We've got elections to win!!!!!!!!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
72. a sign of the times
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 06:48 PM by noiretblu
when something just about everyone knows is true is still the subject of so much "debate." yes...it was stolen, just like 2002 and 2000.
btw, i believe MCM had the conversation with kerry, and i believe kerry said what MCM claimed he said. i don't believe that kerry's spokeperson's statement means kerry is any more or less of a coward than he was before this incident.
i will add: NO BIG FUCKING DEAL anyway.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
73. Whether you are convinced that the results of an election are true to
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 08:57 PM by Peace Patriot
the intention of the voters, or not, should not be a matter of belief, but of the hard evidence of COUNTING votes. The new electronic voting systems are designed to deny us that evidence.

After the 2000 stolen election, which the Supreme Court, in a highly unusual interference in state law, stopped the vote count in an election that Gore had won, the Bushites set out to install an election system, nationwide, that could not be recounted--with the so-called "Help America Vote Act" (H.A.V.A.), which encouraged and funded the use of highly insecure, hackable electronic voting machines, manufactured by rightwing Bushite corporations, who own and control the 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code by which votes are 'tabulated'--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it. In 2004, the non-transparency of this system was compounded by there being no paper trail (let alone a real paper ballot backup) in one third of the country, and woefully inadequate audit/recount procedures everywhere else. The Bushites prevented a paper trail requirement in Congress--Tom Delay bottled it up in committee--and the Bushite companies lobbied against it in the states, their lavish lobbying to profit from the $4 billion H.A.V.A. boondoggle being one other scandalous aspect of this coup, producing serious corruption of election officials at the state/local level.

The Bush junta set out to compromise and corrupt our election system, and they succeeded. They deliberately underfunded HAVA's oversight group, the Election Assistance Commission (EAC), to delay and obstruct even the inadequate testing and verification procedures that HAVA included.

My mantra: If they had wanted a transparent election in 2004, why didn't we have one? It's not that diffcult. They did not want it. They wanted an election system that could easily be manipulated by Bush's buds at Diebold and ES&S.

And they did not succeed in compromising and corrupting our election system without the help of some Democratic leaders--such as Christopher Dodd in the Senate, and Connie McCormack, head of Los Angeles elections, both of whom are advocates for paperless electronic voting and for citizens trusting private corporations to count their votes behind a veil of "trade secret" code, and furthermore behind a facade of esoteric computer gobble-de-gook that entirely obscures the act of counting votes and makes it incomprehensible to ordinary voters.

Connie McCormack once remarked of voting rights advocate Kim Alexander, "She's not a professional." Kim is an expert on electronics in government and runs a public information web site on the issue. That sneer of McCormack's--that lordly foot on the necks of peon voters and their advocates--was very telling. That is now the attitude of many election officials: 'you can't possibly understand how your votes are being counted; just leave it to us.' These election officials have become too powerful--with our elected representatives possibly even being afraid of them--which is inherently corrupt, but added to this are events such as took place at the Beverly Hilton this August (with McCormack as a featured speaker)--a week of fun, sun and high end shopping for election officials from around the country, sponsored by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia.


Unverifiable elections and doctored exit polls


Added to this also is "revolving door" employment. Diebold's former chief salesperson in California, Deborah Sieler (McCormack's best friend), is now assistant registrar in San Joaquin county, and former Republican CA sec of state, Bill Jones, and his chief aide Alfie Charles, now work for Sequoia. (Former Dem CA sec of state, Kevin Shelley, whom these Diebold advocates forced out of office in early 2005--because he had sued Diebold and demanded to see their source code--forbade "revolving door" employment in his office.)

In addition to this utter fraudulence in the design of electronic voting systems (which do NOT have to be non-transparent--Venezuela, for instance, has electronic voting with open source code), we have the shocking phenomenon of the war profiteering corporate news monopolies acting in concert, late on election day 2004, to CHANGE their own exit poll results (Kerry won) to FIT the results of Diebold's and ES&S's secret formulae (Bush won), thus destroying the verification function of exit polls, and, in both cases--Diebold's and ES&S's secret vote counting software, and the doctoring of the exit polls--the American people were thus kept in the dark about the unreliability of the numbers that they are shown on their TV screens.


The legitimacy of the 2004 election 'results'


We're living within "The Matrix," in other words, with our election system having become one of the illusions by which we are manipulated. There is nothing at all legitimate about Bush's "re-election." It was non-transparent, unrecountable and invalid. It is legitimate only in the very technical sense, that secretaries of state produced 'statements of the vote,' the state's electors met and voted, and reported to Congress, and Congress 'accepted' their assertions of which candidate the majority of the state's voters had voted for. In this sense, Bush is the president. But it is a legal technicality whose substantive content is based on, literally, nothing. None of the people who declared the results of the election were privy to the SECRET programming code by which the votes were 'tabulated.'


The Democrats


I have a close friend, whom I hadn't seen in a while, to whom I was explaining all of this the other day, and she said, "But surely the Democrats wouldn't let that happen."

My reply is that they DID let it happen. Those are the facts of our election system. And the question is not "how could they?" but rather, "why did they?". Ignorance? Stupidity? Fear? Corruption? Inattention? They're too busy raising their own salaries, and collecting campaign contributions from their corporate sponsors, to care? They like Bush's war? What? (I think the answer is complex.) As for not saying that the election was a fraud NOW, I'm willing to give some of them some room (Conyers, for instance), because I think it involves serious crime, of a magnitude we have never before seen in this country, and investigating it--and going public with it--may be very dangerous.

I have never blamed John Kerry for conceding the election so quickly (appalling though the experience was)--and cannot blame him, and will not--until I know a lot more about that decision. He was opposing extremely dangerous people who would stop at nothing to gain and retain power. We have suffered four political assassinations of antiwar figures in this country: JFK, MLK, RFK and Paul Wellstone (in my opinion). Us ordinary folks don't have targets painted on our backs (that we know of), or on that of family members. Although Kerry wasn't exactly antiwar, he did represent the clear threat of removing the warmongers and war criminals from the White House--that is, to significantly reduce their power to cover up their evil deeds, and to intimidate those who would expose them. This is a consideration in my view of Kerry.

Also, one of the things I would like to know was Kerry's state of knowledge about Diebold and ES&S at that time, and about what the corporate news monopolies were doing with the exit polls, and who was advising him on these things. ModMom mentions 2002 as early warning. True enough. After Diebold defrauded Max Cleland of a Senate seat in Georgia, they should have all been alerted. Why weren't they? Whose assurances were they accepting about the new electronic voting systems, and why? (And if Kerry was consulting Christopher Dodd, then he was being misinformed--and why would he trust an advocate of paperless voting? What sort of "beltway" coziness was involved in all this -- if any--deliberate blindness, deliberate disinformation, traded favors?)

Certain facts about our election system are indisputable. Two rightwing corporations now control the nation's vote tabulation with secret programming. We have no effective system of verifying the vote, and the situation is worsening, not getting better. Diebold is now touting its touchscreens--the worst of its election theft machines--in California again, and in other states. There ARE citizen efforts to stop them, and I do think that, eventually, public consciousness on this matter will reach critical mass, and these machines will be thrown into 'Boston Harbor,' so to speak. But tremendous further damage to our country and to our democracy, and to the world, can be inflicted in the meantime.


"Proving" that Kerry won


In ADDITION to the indisputable fact that our election system is now owned and controlled by Bush partisans (accomplished during the 2002-2004 period), we know that their unverifiable 'results' for 2004 are the only indication of a Bush win. All other evidence points to a Kerry win--some of it external to the actual vote 'tabulation' figures (such as the real exit poll results, and the 2004 new voter registration figures, which was a nearly 60/40 blowout success for the Dems), and some of it internal (for instance, numerous reports of the touchscreens changing Kerry votes to Bush votes, with astronomical odds against that almost always favoring Bush, and expert statistical studies showing a big discrepancy in paper vs. electronic voting, always favoring Bush).

The Bushites seem to have gotten people like Kerry and Conyers into a bind. They can't "prove" that the election was stolen because the system was designed to hide and destroy evidence. And they have a very hostile corporate news monopoly press, which will gladly vilify them if they assert something that cannot be "proved" definitively and for which the actual perps--the hackers who did it, and those who paid them--have not been found, and may never be found. These news organizations routinely vilify or marginalize, or promote Rovian "talking points" about, truths for which there IS convincing proof. They would certainly destroy any politician--Kerry, Conyers, Boxer, Dean--who said the election was stolen.

These politicians spend much of their time and energy upon "the Matrix" of illusion that these news monopolies have created as our "political life," and feel they have to operate largely within its confines. So they end up saying something lame, like the election system needs reform, but most Americans don't know why, and the news monopolies are certainly not going to investigate or expose a crime that they were party to.

But our Dem party leaders (with Conyers excepted) have brought no urgency to election reform. It is not a priority of theirs (to appearances, anyway). Dean let Donna Brazile get away with a whitewash of Ohio, and a few buried statements about specific problems with electronic voting. To me, this is just mind-boggling, and inexplicable. Bush partisans controlling the vote tabulation should be a screaming banner headline on the tops of their reports and their press releases. But I have to say I don't know what they may be dealing with, nor their levels of knowledge or complicity, nor how they perceive the Bush crime cartel. It's possible that they are biding their time. That's very hard to know. But I do know this: We the people should NOT be biding ours.


What to do? What do we need?


We need "parallel elections," independent exit polls, statistical monitoring and other verification tools for '06 and '08, at least to gather evidence, at best to mount challenges of suspicious results. There has just been a referendum in Ohio on initiatives for election reform that had ridiculous negative results--60/40 in favor of reform in pre-election polls flipped to a 60/40 loss by electronic voting systems. This needs looking into--and exposure. And Rep. Bob Ney's connection to the HAVA legislation also needs to be investigated.

Meanwhile, there are battles going on in many state/local venues (where control over election systems still resides), where peole are trying to get at least some minimal verification procedures and to prevent the situation from worsening. The audit/recount procedures are designed for a paper system--not for the speed and massive vote stealing capability of electronics (which combine with the media's "instant results" and doctored exit polls, and with anti-public state rules, to make challenges almost impossible). You're lucky if you have a 1% automatic audit/recount. 10% should be required for electronics. And WHAT is being "recounted'? Electrons? What is the ballot? Where is it? The machine can't verify its own results.

Electronic voting stealing can involve switching tens of thousands of votes, untraceably, in a split second. State's have adopted these systems much too fast. They are not ready for prime time. We SHOULD go back to paper ballots, hand counted at the precinct level, until we have rock solid security in electronic systems. But there is so much money and corruption involved, that that is not very likely to happen. Removing "trade secrets" and private corporate control is probably the most urgent priority, along with a "voter verified paper ballot" (VVPB), or, less desireable, "voter verified paper audit trail" (VVPAT).

Even if you have a real ballot backup (VVPB), you still have the problem of getting a recount, which is not easy. Huge obstacles of cost and time--and the media's insistence on "instant results"--stand in the way. Getting a paper ballot backup is a pyrrhic victory if the ballot is never counted. They can still easily fiddle the election--although the threat of a recount might be something of a deterrent, if there is a VVPB.

Time should NOT even be a consideration. Transparency and accuracy should be the only criteria for election procedures. Canada counts paper ballots in one day. Why can't we? Is it not worth it to take a day, or two, or even a week or more, to insure accurate results? It is mind-bogglingly stupid to sacrifice accuracy to the glitz of electronics and TV news. If what I and others believe about the 2004 election is true, we have sacrified US soldiers lives, and the lives of others, and our own security as a nation, to our enchantment with speed. Our enchantment with speed was used against us to rush to the conclusion that Bush won--and to smear over and hide all evidence to the contrary.

We do NOT have transparent elections, and that is a problem that we MUST solve--on our own, without the help of the Dem Party establishment, it seems. Who ever would have thought that that would be the case?

Our Dem leaders mouth election reform as a platitude, but do little or nothing to achieve it, and in some cases are corrupt or fearful. This is a crisis of our democracy. If we DON'T get this changed, our democracy is over. It is teetering on the brink, as it is. So, what I would say is, be savvy, think strategically, find out who the good reps are, or those who are educable, and pressure them and buck them up. And put the fear of God into the bad ones. Diebold and ES&S cannot manufacture an election. What they seem to be doing is tweaking elections, 3% here, 5% there, and I imagine they don't want it to be too obvious (although in the recent Ohio referendum, they seem to have gone whole hog). So our votes and our support are still needed. Use them! Use every tool and method you can think of, to raise holy hell about this, to inform others, and to change it.

-------------------

See Bob Koehler's recent column on the highly suspicious--indeed, absurd--results in the Ohio referendum:
http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?custid=67&catid=1824

For an easy to read pamphlet on the perils of electronic voting, designed for election officials ("Myth Breakers"):
http://www.votersunite.org

See Amaryllis' post on the Diebold/ES&S/Sequoia event at the Beverly Hilton:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x380340

For a project for expert statistical monitoring and challenges in '06 and '08 (they need donations), see:
http://www.UScountvotes.org


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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
77. I gotta tell ya...
..that not long after the election I had the occasion to speak with someone who had dinner with the Kerrys -- someone close to the family -- who said that when Mrs. Kerry starts to talk about the election being corrupted, she is informed by her husband that she's wrong.

I can only conclude that a "gentleman's" deal was struck between two Bonesmen. I hate to say it, but what other possibility is there?

And if someone tells me that Kerry must deny the corruption of the election in order to preserver future electability (as did Al Gore) I will pull someone's hair out. It was the alleged political future of Al Gore (mustn't be a sore loserman!) that brought about the despotism now dogging this nation.
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