homeless people and the MTA

[sabbat hunter]

This morning while riding the N train from Astoria to midtown manhattan I counted no less than 5 homeless persons in the car I was in, all sleeping or at least looking like they were sleeping. something should be done. the subways are not a homeless shelter. the MTA, the NYC police should remove these persons from the subways and find them proper shelter. Having them on the subway creates a number of problems
1) no one wants or can sit next to them since they are generally spread out over two or more seats lying down and with the stuff they carry with them.
2) some of the homeless have mental/psycological issues and can pose a danger to themselves and others
3) in this day and age of terrorism, a terrorist could disguise him/herself as a homeless person and create havoc.


put these homeless people to work as well, cleaning up the subway trains, stations. pay them for their work. the MTA has been neglecting this aspect and it is starting to show.

[mrcheerful]

1. Well look at it this way

these homeless people your complaining about could be you in the next 3 years and how would you feel if someone had this attitude against you? As far as putting them to work, how is the city supposed to pay for it? They will need to use tax dollars and that leaves them with cutting something or raising taxes on you. Either way you lose.

[sabbat hunter]

4. i am complaining

more out of sympathy. subways simply arent a proper shelter, i would pay higher taxes if it enabled the homeless to have proper shelters and the chance to work. i am confident that a great majority of the homeless became that way because they lost their jobs at some point and would want to work. the would be doing jobs that need to be done. those jobs can also be paid for out of the 1billion dollar surplus that the MTA is sitting on and will just waste if not forced to spend it on needed things.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Homeless people are a symptom

of what is wrong with this country. When I was a kid in the '50s, there wasn't this large problem. Reagan decided to close mental institutions, and many people who needed care were pushed out on the street. Veterans of Viet Nam constitute a large percentage of homeless people because they came back and were untreated for things like PTSD and not helped in finding jobs, etc.

So what are you doing about it? Are you actively going to your representatives with a plan to help the homeless? Are you donating to nonprofits that are working on the problem? Are you talking to the homeless people themselves, asking what they want?

[sabbat hunter]

5. i donate

to homeless non profit organizations.

and i agree that the homeless are a big symptom. it is a real indicator of the economy. more homeless means that more people are out of work or are simply priced out of the housing market.

there are some homeless who certainly have mental issues and they should be taken care of, especially those who are veterans and came back from Nam or the gulf wars with issues that eventually caused them to be on the streets.

[EFerrari]

3. So, you are arguing that poverty should be a crime?

Or, am I getting that wrong?

[sabbat hunter]

6. no i am not saying that

i am not saying that the homeless should be put in jail. but that they need proper shelter. also jobs. if they are unable to work because of physical or emotional problems it is one thing. but if they are unwilling to work that is a completely different story. but i think that most homeless people would work if given the opportunity.


david

[mrcheerful]

7. Now whats the meaning of

willing to work or not? Most homeless want work but can't find a liveable wage job. Stop looking down your nose at these people and find out why they are there. Like I said, that could be you thats homeless. What good is it to have a job and not be able to afford a home?

[sabbat hunter]

8. do you read what i said?

i said that those who are willing and able to work should be given jobs (cleaning the subways, trains as a good start)

this is not looking down my nose at the homeless situation. it is trying to find a solution for it.

but there is a small minority that are able to work but dont want to. these are like the old style hobos who go from town to town basically just panhandling.

[Greyhound]

34. Please take this in the spirit of cooperation it is given with.

You are making assumptions based on the myths that the re:puke:s created to disguise their first looting of the nation.
Nobody wants to be homeless, period. Many of the people you are talking about putting to work "cleaning up the subway trains, stations" would be happy to get a paycheck, but cannot because they have no address, and the pittance they would be paid would only get them robbed as it's not even close to being enough to get off the streets.
"NYC police should remove them and bring them to proper shelter". Just so you know, there are no proper shelters. The shelters that do exist are absolute horrors, many sleep outside in the elements because it's better to risk dying from exposure than going to the shelters, assuming a vacancy even exists.

BTW there is a real, viable solution to the homeless problem. It is wholly unpalatable to the politiwhores in both parties. Seal the borders. Deport the illegal aliens. Punish those that hire them. Enforce a living wage.

[Cats Against Frist]

31. Where do you get the idea that most homeless people want to work?

I'd say that's a stretch. Most of them are probably unemployable, without a vocational rehabilitation service, and, as far as I can tell, a lot of homeless people choose panhandling.

In Seattle, I see all kinds of middle-aged white guys panhandling, but do I ever see them outside the day labor center? Hell no. The Hispanics are all there, however, ready to put in a full day's work for their pay.

Most of the people who are homeless are mentally ill or have substance abuse problems that would preclude them from holding a job, anyway. And most of them get services, but REFUSE them, because it means they'd either have to take meds, or stop drinking.

I don't blame them for this -- I think they're beyond the point of being able to make responsible personal decisions.

As for them riding public transportation, all day, I once heard a homeless guy on a bus call Metro his "surrogate mother." I think that's sad -- and lots of times, the people you see on the bus, all day, aren't homeless, at all, but live in an outpatient rehab facility, and just walk around with the plastic bag, collecting stuff.

These people are societies lost, and not just because people don't care about them, but because there's no place for them. You can't just say "get them a job, and they'd be willing to work." There is no job for them, there is no home for them, and there is no place for them, except what the government, and private charities can provide. I'd like to see some of the state monies pulled away from pork projects, and see more evangelical churches helping, instead of building mega churches with fitness centers.

[EFerrari]

10. Then, I don't understand why you'd bring in the police or the MTA?

If you want a good organization to contribute to or to work with, try this one:

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/

They do excellent work. :hi:

[sabbat hunter]

12. i'd bring in

the MTA because the homeless are sleeping in the MTA system. the subway stations and trains are becoming dirtier each day (because of the lack of money the MTA is spending on the cleaning) but right now the MTA has a 1 billion dollar surplus. a chunk of that could be used to hire homeless persons to clean the subways. (give them MTA id's and shelters and it solves the no address/id problems)

[EFerrari]

14. Interesting. I see a proposal here that could be submitted

by your local homeless coalition.

Why not email the idea to the link I gave you? They could pass it along. :)

[sabbat hunter]

16. i plan to do so

i am going to write up a comprehensive email and plan and submit it to the link you gave me. :)

[EFerrari]

17. Super! Doug and I contribute a monthly column to a paper

here in town that the Coalition on Homelessness puts out. Then, they give the paper to homeless vendors, and the vendors keep the money they make selling papers. It's a win-win.

The NCOH is a great org. :hi:

[mntleo2]

9. Read This And then Try to Repeat Your Post

http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Jeff%20Seemann

Jeff is a candidate for congress and spent the last few days on the street as a homeless person. He got a whole new perspective as to what is happening out there by the government for homeless people. One hint as to what is being done: NOTHING. If you do not have an address and ID you cannot even find a JOB, ok?

I also recommend that you read the comments that are posted in Jeff's diary. It will be an eye opener.

Cat In Seattle <---been there, done that and it took an almost herculean effort to find a home. My kids and I are still suffering years later from its effects. Oh. And I was working a paid job and do not drink, never had a drug problem, schizophrenia, or anything else that the homeless are constantly being "blamed" as to why this is happening to them. The main reason for homelessness is called "greedy rich people's economics" ok? Housing costs are too high and wages are too low. Period!

[sabbat hunter]

11. once again read my posts

i think that they should be given shelter (that means they have an address) and given jobs by the MTA (which is a quasi-government agency)
these can be 'per diem' jobs with a MTA id and check given to them everyday that can be cashed at any bank for no charge (chase manhattan bank already cashes MTA LIRR checks for employees at no charge)

housing costs are indeed out of control and they are only getting worse with the high heating bill costs. a family that once could have afforded their own home now cannot because of the outrageous heating costs.

[mrcheerful]

13. Whos going to pay for it?

You'll never get the city to lift a finger and forget the feds, as far as they are concerned homeless=non-voter or donator=doesn't need a voice=they choose to live like that.

[sabbat hunter]

15. therein

lies the problem. we as concerned voters need to express to our representatives in washington to spend the money needed to help these people. open back up the hospital for those that need it, but havent been able to do so since reagan in the 80's.
a large number of homeless are Vets from Nam and Gulf wars. it is the federal government responsibility to take care of these vets who fought for our country.

[mrcheerful]

18. Won't happen until after repigs are put in their place,

the minority. Until that day its rob from the poor and give to the rich. BTW, you will never get the repigs to support any effort in that cause. Nor will you get fundies to lift a finger, most food banks are either catholic or protestant, fundies don't believe in hand outs to anyone except their members.

[EFerrari]

19. Not true. St. Anthony's Diningroom does a brisk business

in San Francisco, for example.

And, the homeless are so below the Freep radar screen, it is actually possible to get funding. The NCOH excells at it.

[Cats Against Frist]

32. I hate these "the poor are so noble" posts

In five years of social service, and plenty of contact with homeless families, I never met ONE, not ONE client who qualified as "downtrodden by the rich, depite their pure and noble effort to do otherwise." In Illinois, if you are homeless, and you make contact with DCFS, they will refer you to housing funds, and a social worker whose job it is to MAKE SURE that you have a place to go, and that you're set up with food stamps, welfare, whatever. UNLESS, of course, you're a lifelong repeater, and you've used up all of your chances. Washington State generally has a better welfare system than Illinois.

I feel sorry for the children, and think that they should always get services to keep them safe, fed, clothed, and warm, and given medicine when they're sick. But every client that I've run into was either a crack addict, mentally ill, lazy and apathetic as fuck, or felt entitled.

I understand that finding a home is difficult, particularly saving up for first, last and deposit, and that sometimes working people, with good intentions fall through the cracks. Unfortunately, I've only heard about it -- because, like I said, in five years of social service work, I never met one.

Like I said -- I'm fine with providing services, but I'm not fine with whitewashing the plight of the poor, and pinning all of the blame on other people.

[mntleo2]

35. You Remind Me Of So many DSHS Suits, LOL

You may hate the "noble poor" syndrome because you are on the other side of the desk. You are being paid by and are part of a demeaning system that imposes policies, sometimes impossible policies, on families who could never live up to them. In my state some of the cruelest taskmasters are the people at the front desk, the ones directly working with these families. I think these front desk people are shell shocked with the impossible tragedies that they face every single day, because they are also forced to impose these policies on families. To live with themselves, they have to justify it some way.

Look I know you have a job that is hard, but you might find a little more faith in these people if you stop blaming the poor for not being noble and start criticizing the system you have to support. You might start by reading the study done by the dean of the School of Social work at Texas State University. It is called, "Making Ends Meet". She followed 150 families for 5 years through the welfare system. Of the families she followed, all but 2 had to "cheat" some way or the other to survive, such as have a "secret" room mate to help with rent and living costs.

And what happened to the two "noble" families who did obey the rules to the letter? Both of them were charged with child neglect because their children went without even the basics (and both mothers were working for a wage as well)!

The point of that book, written by someone, who is surprisingly on the academic side, is that nobility does *not* help a family survive. I usually have issues around academics and social issues because academics seldom gives much insight. they are usually full of hot air and do not have a clue ~ or even want to have a clue. Yet they think they are so much more intelligent and refuse to listen to the ones who are actually living in poverty. They often prove what Will Rogers noted when he said something like, "The most dangerous people in the world are people with a whole lot of book knowlege and confuse that with wisdom..." But amazingly this woman had both knowledge and wisdom because she actually did listen and boy, she got an earful ~ a doctorate no less!

The poor are angry, they live in a dangerous and desperate world, they are maligned and they have to do whatever they can to make sure they have a home and food for their children. As an advocate, I see every day well paid DSHS suits who, out of their intentional ignorance, hold a secret and not so secret disdain for their clients. This practiced disgust becomes a part of the whole departmental culture that trickles down to the case manager carrying over 300 monthly cases of deserate people they cannot adequately serve. In that world you can follow all those "respect" rules to the letter, my Dear, but if your whole culture carries that disdain, people know it. That disdain will be immediately denied, but Hon, the elephant is in the living room and he has left a steaming pile that a whole lot of people refuse to acknowledge. Don't fall for it!

The truth about such "nobility" is that these poor, who are in dire crisis by the time they get to the welfare office, are supposed to grovel and beg and show they are grateful,while literally trying to stave off homelessness and starvation because the pittance provided would never allow their survival ~ and they are expected to be a Philadelphia lawyer to get it. Meanwhile, our culture glorifies corporate welfare queens who are considered entitled and who would never get this same disdain. These corporate queens take literally millions of times more of our tax dollars than the poor ever dreamed, with little question ~ WITH well paid accountants AND lawyers.

It is sad really. I am not saying you have this disdain, but it sounds like you have some "issues" that might be balanced out if you volunteered at a welfare rights non-profit. Your inside view would have quite a bit of power as to how to change the system. Try contacting the Welfare Law Center in NY. Welfare rights groups are always looking for advocates like you. They have some very savvy people on their side who would enlighten you as to how the system corrupts everyone, the poor as well as the social workers who serve them. Oh and if you are on your way up the DSHS ladder, the Law Center is heavily funded by people like the Kennedy's.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[DS1]

20. Travellers should be kicked off the MTA, too

They sleep between stops, carry around all sorts of luggage, and 19 out of 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were travellers.

[sabbat hunter]

23. baggage by travelers

is inspected. i doubt that the cops often check the bags of the homeless. i have yet to see one personally.

[troubleinwinter]

21. "homeless persons"

"all sleeping or at least looking like they were sleeping" "the NYC police should remove these persons"

If a businessman dozes on a train should he be removed by police?

"Having them on the subway creates a number of problems" "no one wants... sit next to them" "can pose a danger to themselves and others"

Have you been assaulted by any on a train? Have you seen any harm himself on a train?

"a terrorist could disguise him/herself as a homeless person"

Could a terrorist be disguised as a businessman, homemaker or student? Should businessmen, homemakers and students be barred from riding the trains?

[sabbat hunter]

22. wow

talk about taking comments out of contex


this is what i said


This morning while riding the N train from Astoria to midtown manhattan I counted no less than 5 homeless persons in the car I was in, all sleeping or at least looking like they were sleeping. something should be done. the subways are not a homeless shelter. the MTA, the NYC police should remove these persons from the subways and find them proper shelter. Having them on the subway creates a number of problems
1) no one wants or can sit next to them since they are generally spread out over two or more seats lying down and with the stuff they carry with them.
2) some of the homeless have mental/psycological issues and can pose a danger to themselves and others
3) in this day and age of terrorism, a terrorist could disguise him/herself as a homeless person and create havoc.


put these homeless people to work as well, cleaning up the subway trains, stations. pay them for their work. the MTA has been neglecting this aspect and it is starting to show.


you completely and utterly twisted my words
i have never been assaulted on a train, but i have been witness to a homeless person trying to harm himself (trying to kick out the window while the train is moving, shouting)
and are you denying that many of the homeless have mental/psychological problems?
i have seen people verbally assaulted by homeless people riding on the subways

i said the NYC police should remove them and bring them to proper shelter. SHEESH

as for you last one i simply shake my head sadly at how badly you twist my words.

[sabbat hunter]

24. what is your solution

you seem to have no problem taking my comments out of contex, but what is your solution for the homeless problem?

[troubleinwinter]

26. I don't have a "solution"

I donate, participate in fund raising activities and support THE SONOMA COUNTY TASK FORCE ON THE HOMELESS / Sonoma County Fund For The Homeless and VOICE MAIL PROJECT (to provide free voice mailboxes to people who cannot afford their own phone for job and housing searches).

I do not advocate police officers removing homeless people from public transportation because 'nobody wants to sit by them' or 'terrorists may disguise themselves as homeless'.

[sabbat hunter]

27. i said

that the MTA and police should take them to proper shelter.

the subways arent a proper place to live. they deserve better. read what i say

[troubleinwinter]

28. You said

"the NYC police should remove these persons from the subways"

You did NOT say "outreach workers should go onto trains and into subways to offer assistance to people who appear to be homeless".

[sabbat hunter]

29. again misquote

this is what i said

"the NYC police should remove these persons from the subways and find them proper shelter"

you left out the last half of my sentence.

[troubleinwinter]

30. How about if we try it this way:

"the NYC police should remove these persons from the subways and find them proper shelter"

[graywarrior]

25. The homeless live at the library in downtown Sarasota

during the day. I love it. They come in with all their stuff, take all the big, stuffed comfortable chairs, read all the newspapers and new magazines and the library does nothing to stop them.

Whole Foods is right down the street from the library, so they wander down there and refill their coffee cups and smoke cigarettes on the tables outside the store. I think is great. The wealthy are forced to see them day after day. Way things are going, I could be joining them, so I stay nice real to them.

[Sapphire Blue]

33. When I used to ride the bus to work very early in the AM...

... two elderly homeless women, w/their bags, were on the bus every morning, leaning against each other's shoulders, sleeping. If I caught a later bus, these women were still riding, and sleeping. As it was really cold on some mornings, I was grateful that the bus driver did not attempt to kick these women off the bus. A bus may not be a "legitimate" shelter, but it kept these women warm and out of the elements.

And kept this from happening to them (she was thought to have been trying to keep warm)...

Woman's body found after fire

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF

Firefighters discovered a woman's body in a small trash fire as they were dousing the blaze in South Seattle Thursday.

The woman's death appeared to be a "tragic accident," said Seattle police spokesman Rich Pruitt.

The fire in the 500 block of Alaskan Way South was reported at about 3 p.m. The Seattle police arson and bomb squad and the King County Medical Examiner's Office also responded to the scene.

The area is known for transient camps, said Pruitt. Police believe the woman was homeless and had lived in downtown Seattle.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/249742_tl125x.html