*Sigh* I just got an e-mail from John Kerry telling me to (GET THIS!)

[sasquatch]

"Don't stand for "Swift Boat" style attacks on Jack Murtha"
:eyes: :banghead: :argh: :wow:

WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU DO THE SAME THING YOU PINK TUTU WIMP?!?!?

[mondo joe]

1. You mean "Don't do what I did as your candidate"?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[sasquatch]

31. No shit

[bryant69]

2. Now don't hold it in

You should feel free to say whatever you want.

I would, however, point out that it is different encouraging the defense of a third party and defending yourself. Rightly or wrongly, I can understand why Kerry might not have wanted to get into a pissing match with the Swifties.

Oh and I don't think tha Kerry actually wears a pink Tutu, nor do I believe that he's a wimp. But feel free to express your opinion as loudly as pleases you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MoonRiver]

41. Well, I can think of reason why Kerry should have

gotten into a pissing match with the Swifties. It's called WINNING! :wtf:

[bryant69]

47. Well that's your opinion isn't it?

Alternatively getting in that match might have hurt him more than it helped him.

[MoonRiver]

52. How could anything be worse than losing????????

It's stupid not to defend one's good name and personal honor when scumbags are tearing away at them. I don't know if Kerry was stupid about this (maybe he got incredibly bad advise, but he should have known better anyway), lazy, or indifferent. Regardless, the result was that people didn't think he could defend himself against the accusations when he was silent. That's practically an admission of guilt. Kerry lost the election when he didn't fight back against these well known Karl Rove tactics, imo.

[bryant69]

55. OK

Well there were any number of factors in Kerry losing.

This might be one; you might be right. I don't think you are; rather I think he did the right thing. He responded, but didn't let it become the focus of his campaign.

Rather if anybody is to blame for the swift boats it's the rest of the Democratic Party and liberal movement. We didn't go to bat for Kerry the way we should have.

Bryant

[AZBlue]

79. Pissing matches don't win elections. (n/t)

[sasquatch]

83. Actually they do

[AZBlue]

86. As in....? Name one.

[sasquatch]

88. The last, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988 about everyone I could remember

[AZBlue]

108. You don't really know one, do you?

If it's so common, name one person who got into a "pissing match" like that and then went on to win an election. I'm just asking for one name with his or her "pissing match" that was so successful.

[mattomjoe]

3. Yet one more reason why I don't want to hear Kerry's name

be brought up for 2008. Sorry, John, but you've had your chanceS...

[snappyturtle]

13. I couldn't agree more...

He had his chance and not only didn't stand up for himself in the Swift boat ordeal, he didn't stand up for us after his election was stolen!!

[lumpy]

25. More BS

x

[lumpy]

23. BS

x

[JuniorPlankton]

4. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt

Let's assume that this is an invaluable lesson he learned.
Better late than never.

[MaineDem]

7. Ditto

Everyone but George it seems it able to learn from mistakes.

And, in response to the OP, I think Kerry is far from a pink tutu wimp. It's easy to toss words like this around but they should be reserved for those who actually deserve them.

[Kralizec]

10. Enough with giving politicians the benefit of the doubt! (nt)

[lumpy]

34. I suppose Bush should be given

the benefit of the doubt.

[Kralizec]

46. Why? I say hell no to that! (nt)

[lumpy]

49. Thanks, just wanted to know.

y

[sasquatch]

33. Sounds fair

[tularetom]

5. He needs to look up "irony"

in his dictionary. Jeesus effin christ does he not realize how stupid that sounds?

[emulatorloo]

11. SO YOU WOULD RATHER HE NOT DEFEND MURTHA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Ok then.

(PS see my post below - Kerry defended himself, media buried it. TOP DEMS did not Defend Kerry, they just let it slide)

[Straight Shooter]

6. *sigh*

Kerry in fact did want to retaliate against the Swift Boat Liars. He was advised against it by his campaign manager (I've forgotten her name), and despite his better judgment he went along with the advice.

The rest, as they say, is history. Also, I cannot agree that someone of John Kerry's stature is a "pink tutu wimp." He is in no way in the same category as Joe Lieberman.

[OregonBlue]

12. Kerry and Gore both listened to campaign advisors and they

both came off stiff and wimpy. Too late now but I wish they had both been themselves and come out swinging at every turn. Let's not forget however that THEY BOTH WON!!

I don't want to hear Kerry mentioned again either. He had his chance, listened to advice instead of going with his gut. I want a presidential candidate that is honest, open and to the point, not one that is playing political games.

[Straight Shooter]

18. I will never forget that they both won.

And I will never forgive bush's campaign advisors who played every nasty trick in the book. Dimson was more than eager to go along with them, too. Fun and games for him. x(

[OregonBlue]

37. I won't forget either. That's why we all need to be contacting

members of the Senate Committee on Rules and Administration to get our the GAO report on manipulation of voting machines now!

[sasquatch]

36. It was one of Bob Shrum's whores

They out to find those people and ban them from meeting with democrats.

[Straight Shooter]

72. Bob Shrum. Poster boy for alarming stupidity.

Advised Kerry not to include in his campaign his record of going after BCCI because he thought people would get it confused with BBC. I kid you not, that's what Shrum said. Aaaarrggh! I think I actually tore out some of my hair when I heard about it.

:banghead:

[sasquatch]

75. Will someone fire his ass

[ultraist]

38. Edwards advised Kerry to fight back, Kerry refused

Kerry is ultimately responsible for not fighting back, regardless of where the advice came from.

When Mary Beth Cahill suggested Kerry not fight back, Kerry decided to follow her suggestion.

It was his campaign, his final call/decision.

I must say though, I'm glad to see Kerry now sees this was a grave error and is standing up for Murtha.

[emulatorloo]

8. 1. kerry responded, media buried it. 2. top dems sat idly by

Kerry:

called on Bush to denounce it and stop it in several speeches.
put out a commercial featuring his swiftboat crew to counter it, even though repugs had timed the whole thing to make it hard for Kerry to spend money then.
max cleland went to crawford w a letter to deliver to bush to get bush to stop it
etc etc media buried it

Major Dems sat idly by as it happened -- they just let it happen and DID NOT STAND UP FOR JOHN KERRY (PS Murtha defended him)

So please don't be so obnoxious, because 1) you are ill informed and 2) it is good that Kerry is doing this - Murtha is to be commended and defended

[AZBlue]

80. THANK YOU!!!! Thank You, Thank You! Well said!

:applause::applause::applause:

[ClassWarrior]

9. So when he stands up for someone else, you criticize him...

...because no one else stood up for him??

:crazy:

NGU.

[sasquatch]

65. No, I criticize him for not standing up for himself

[blm]

67. He did. Media buried it. No Dem front appeared to stand with him the way

he did with Murtha and then other Dems followed suit. That's what should have happened in 2004, too. Not that media let defense of Kerry be heard.

Why aren't you asking why other Dems didn't stand as forcefully behind the truth about Kerry as GOP did behind their lies for Bush?

Can you name oNE time when Bush fought the stories about him? No. He had a RW media machine and a hubris-filled RNC to do it for him.

The DNC and the Dem party had nothing even in the same ballpark.

[malta blue]

14. Amusing

Considering Kerry "respectfully disagrees" with Mr. Murtha.

[ClassWarrior]

16. I'd call it noble.

Nathan Hale noble.

NGU.

[emulatorloo]

20. that is the second stupidest thing I have ever seen posted on DU

If you are trying to make a mountain out of the small differences Kerry and Murtha have about the technicalities of withdrawing the troops, I don't see the point of it other than to divide democrats.

[lumpy]

43. Maybe that is the point of it.

x

[karynnj]

51. I see NO contradiction

Murtha has a plan, Kerry has a plan. Why do you think Kerry has to reject what his best judgement says is the best solution, to support Murtha.

Kerry is saying that the RW slams against Murtha are beyond civility. Should he ask ask that only people who agree with him deserve to be treated with civility. Kerry has consistently defended vets when they have been slimed - he believes in what he says and he deserves praise for this.

Your snarky comment says more about you than about Kerry.

[malta blue]

56. My comment was not meant to be snarky.

I was merely stating that it seemed odd that Kerry would encourange Murtha to defend himself against the "swift boating" when he did not really do so, and secondly when he disagrees with Murtha in the first place.

[karynnj]

116. Kerry didn't encourage Murtha to defend himself,

Kerry defended Murtha and asked everyone he could to do so to.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Um...

Not to cut against the bash-Kerry grain, but a little reminder is in order.

The Swift Boat ads came along just around the Dem convention. Recall, if you will, the rules: your campaign spending is severely limited after you have your convention. The GOP convention was to happen five weeks later, so Kerry was looking at a five-week period in the summer when Bush's campaign could outspend him ten to one. The GOP slipped the Swifties in at exactly, precisely the right moment.

Hobson's Choice: Attack the Swifties with all guns blazing during that five-week period and risk coming up badly short on cash in the final weeks, or ride it out and have the needed money in the final weeks.

They chose, and many believe they chose poorly. That's fine; I wonder, however, what the big-block letters would be yelling if the campaign had been forced to go quiet in the final weeks for lack of funds.

PS, if you think the Swifties were the only reason Kerry lost, you weren't paying attention.

[seabeyond]

27. when kerry did defend himself repugs and media then went into

mode that kerry is only talking about military service so his military service is free for attack. after all ...... he was ONLY talking about his service (defending himself from attack) so he deserved the piling on

the hypocrisy and forgetting reality is amazing on this board

[emulatorloo]

29. WHAT DEMS STOOD UP FOR JOHN KERRY AGAINST THE SBVTs?

not many, although Murtha, bless him. was among them

[lumpy]

30. Thanks Mr. Pitt.

It really angers me when any of our best Democrats are subject to derogatory statements that we see on this forum. Kerry is twenty times the man than those who denigrate him. 'Pink Tutus' indeed!

[sasquatch]

39. I don't think it's the only reason he lost

I'll just say Blackwell and leave it at that.

[TayTay]

40. I honestly don't think it matters to some people.

Kerry has to spend his time in the 'stocks' where his critics can just throw stuff at him. I don't think the explanations do any good, for either side. No one is listening and all minds are already made up.

To the original poster, why don't you unsubscribe from the mailing list if it upsets you so much?

[afdip]

17. don't tell me, he's grown a spine in only 12 months. . . wow!!

[lumpy]

19. Negative rhetoric about Kerry doesn't help

OUR party, maybe it helps the OTHER party, tho'. 'Pink tutu' 'wimp'? Disgusting anti-Kerry rhetoric = swiftboating Kerry. Bullshit!

[emulatorloo]

24. some would rather attack good democrats than say, Dick Cheney

who knows why?

[sasquatch]

64. Yes it does cause it lets them know that not fighting back is wrong

[lumpy]

70. Kerry's war record was attacked

and he did 'fight back' about that. Swiftbaiters set the trap and Kerry took the bait. It consumed valuable time that could have been spent on the more the important issues. Dirty politics on the part of right wingers. Perhaps he should have ignored the accusations and let his record speak for itself. That was a battle best fought by the media.

[sasquatch]

71. He didn't fight back, he let it slide then he later addressed it

[seabeyond]

21. could it be that it was the responsibility of all of america

and our fellow dem leaders to stick up for kerry. kerry did stick up for them, and then media jumped on his ass for two months of doing nothing but talking about his military service

but hell.,

if you want to jump kerry's integrity when he immediately stepped in and did what was right with muthra and asking all of us to do what was right with muthra, since we didnt with him

feel good about it

banging my head on a wall

[Neocondriac]

22. You guys just don't get it.......

Kerry was all to happy to fold the tent and lose. He's a bonesmen. He was brought in to lose and then go away!

[MaineDem]

26. I highly doubt what you posted (nt)

[lumpy]

48. It's just more BS

I can't be very sweet to these these people who want to sabotage Kerry by trying to make out he is some sort of a weak Democrat. Disgusting and makes me question their motivations.

[Neocondriac]

76. Why are you coddling a Bonesmen....?

we need a hungry grassroots candidate not some Ivy league rich mother fucker who doesn't give a flying fuck about you or me.Don't question my motives, question Kerry's.

[emulatorloo]

28. huh huh huh -- YOU SAID BONER!!!!!!

[seabeyond]

32. your theory, with no evidence is busted because the man has

NOT gone away. why dont you just post a story, kinda like repug dead heads do........

[karynnj]

54. How stupid is this?

Kerry was out campaigning months after cancer treatment, he risked the loss of the only house he had any ownership of, he campaigned 7 days a week for very long days, as did his wife and his and her children. If this was a pre-fixed event, how do you explain that they questioned his character, his morality, his decency, his war record, his intelligence, his career, his marriage, his wife's charater, sanity, and work? The Republicans were clearly aiming not just to win but to destroy him as well. You should be proud to know you are doing there work.

[Neocondriac]

68. Lady , you need to wake up.......

Being a bonesmen takes precident over all else.Think about it. He never rasied any rebuttle to his own swiftboating. He never brought up GW's use of an earpeice and reciever during debates.He ran and hid when all indicators from exit polls showed a clear winning margin in Ohio. He never wanted to win.

[AZBlue]

82. That's completely incorrect. He absolutely "raised [a] rebuttal"

[karynnj]

115. I have been wide awake and I stand be what I think

There is no way what you are saying makes any sense. If true, after he had the nomination he could have taken life easy, come unprepared to the debates and spent his time with his lovely family. If you could look at his daugthers' faces both during the concession speech and later when they have talked about him - and say that - I think you are incredibly dense.

You can't take exit polls to court. Why is he still working so hard - doing things you all want "some Democrat" to do - but then wish it wsn't John Kerry.

Even if you assume the worst, that there was something to it - every case friend and relative talks of how he changed in Vietnam. Listen (or read) anything Teresa has said - she wouldn't have married him.

[seabeyond]

101. excellent post. but the ears are closed. they wont look at facts

they chose to promote a fiction to attack.

[second edition]

59. No,actually you are to "thick" to get it- Your wrong!!! n/t

[Neocondriac]

69. I am merely pointing out that...

Kerry never wanted to win. Would you want to be vilified for the next four years?

[seabeyond]

109. did you watch them campaign. i was totally exhausted

watching them campaign. who the hell are you to dismiss all the hard work. how easy, yet so simpe it is for you to mouth off crap

[seabeyond]

35. and sasquatch, since kerry offends you so, be sure not to stand up

for murtha. that will show kerry

[sasquatch]

63. That's not what we're talking about

We're talking about why he let the Swift Boat people smear him in 2004 and he didn't lift a finger to defend himself. Do you know what Irony is?

[seabeyond]

74. "he didn't lift a finger to defend himself. " he did. so you are not

saying a truth. why? why are you saying he did not lift a finger? he did speak out. what is the motive to say he did something he did not do.

this makes no sense to me, with anyone who uses his brain, to tell a lie to promote an agenda. the repugs drive me mad with it

[Lexingtonian]

42. I wish

we could issue demerit points for offensively stupid posts.

[KittyWampus]

44. I swear, the exact same thought has occured to me.

[jim3775]

57. We need a slashdot-like ranking system n/t

[sasquatch]

62. You talking about me?

:shrug:

[Lexingtonian]

73. about

many people, really, who engage in literal scapegoating of Democrats.

[yurbud]

45. Kerry missed major opportunities to hit Bush on "character" issues

He could have run commercials with Michael Moore's clip of Bush toasting his base, the "haves and have mores."

He could have done shown Bush's enlistment papers with the question "Do you volunteer to serve in Vietnam?" and the box checked NO.

He could even have shown him joking about WMD and juxtaposed it with scenes of our soldiers in combat.

Instead, his campaign commercials would have barely been adequate for the governor of a small state, and were bland beyond description compared to how people felt about the sustained assault on our democracy and reputation in the world.

His debate performance was admirable only in that it was more coherent than Bush's, which is like saying someone is really skinny compared to Jabba the Hutt.

That said, I hope that the Winter Soldier and Iran-Contra and BCCI investigating Kerry is doing something behind the scenes to move the collapse of the regime forward.

[mattomjoe]

50. "missed opportunities"

yep, I think that pretty much sums up the frustration behind the Kerry-"bashing".

[yurbud]

85. Kerry had an admirable record as essentially the DA of Senate

going after the biggest fish of corruption and foreign policy crimes.

Any campaign manager who didn't plead with him to bring up Iran-Contra and BCCI, both highly relevant to the current administration's crimes, should only be working at McDonald's. And only cleaning the bathrooms. With their tongues.

[lumpy]

53. Kerry is a statesman.

So is Gore. They are accustomed to presenting themselves as levelheaded. Perhaps the US public is not ready for adult politicians. Otherwise, how is hell did Bush get any votes. Every one with half a brain had to know that Bush avoided the draft and doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

[mattomjoe]

61. Unfortunately, it seems that far too many voters don't see the difference

between voting for a President, and voting for American Idol. Because, at the end of the day, image is all that matters. Why else would Bush and his handlers set up PR stunt after PR stunt?

[lumpy]

66. Verily. A tremendous observation.

" Unfortunately, it seems that far too many voters don't see the difference between voting for a president and voting for American Idol". Cool calculation.

[yurbud]

84. if only that were true--Kerry stuck to bland platitudes when

presenting the truth would have made Bush wet his pants.

Did he hammer Bush on trying to privatize Iraq's oil, hiring convicted felons to run his foreign policy, Rummy's plan to open a propaganda office, the extortion caused by energy deregulation?

He could have used Dean's "culture of corruption" line just as easily with devastating effect during the election, and certainly made more of the torture issue.

Being boring doesn't mean you're being honest.

I'm still waiting for most Democrats to cross that bridge.

Murtha was a good first step in actually mentioning the real opinions of Iraqis, who we are supposedly teaching democracy even though 80% of them want us to leave.

[second edition]

58. The assumptions applied in this post are incorrect and imply ignorance

on the part of the poster in regards to the campaign and the actions of John kerry against the SBV. Personally, I think this calls to mind and should actually make people angry that more did not come to the defense of Kerry -including many of us- when he was being "Swift Boated" and defamed by the media.

[sasquatch]

60. Thank you second edition

[frogmarch]

77. second edition, I agree

and I also think that Kerry believed the SVT attacks would blow over - or at least his advisors did. While I blame the media for spreading the swifties' lies and thereby lending them credence, I hold Kerry's advisors at least partly responsible for his not striking back immediately. Kerry had said at the beginning that he was determined to run a positive campaign and address the issues, and not stoop to mud-slinging. I think he and his advisors made the mistake of thinking that most people were intelligent enough to care about the real issues, and to see the attacks for what they were - filthy lies concocted by the SVT and utilized by Republican spin machine.

If Kerry decides to run again and is called a wimp in a pink tu-tu by the dark side, I know who I'll blame.

[politicasista]

78. Wow, Kerry must be getting under peoples skin

based on all the Kerry bashing threads the last two days. We do more trashing of Democrats than trashing *, Cheney and Doughboy.

We are making progress towards winning in 2006 alright. Got anymore stones to throw?

[sasquatch]

81. That's what makes our party better than the Repubs

With the Repubs it's fall on your knees, don't ask questions and smile like a doughnut. FYI I'm a fucking gravel querry when it comes to stones to throw at the repugs.

[Mutley]

87. Look, I hate how he didn't stand up to the swiftboaters,

but would you rather he didn't stand up for Murtha at all? He didn't do the right thing last year, but he seems to be trying to do the right thing now. You're not going to let him? And I wasn't a HUGH!!!!!11 fan of his last year, but we can use all the voices we can get here.

[sasquatch]

89. I'm just pointing out the irony there

[blm]

90. It's ironic that other Dems didn't stand up for Kerry the way Kerry stands

for them when they get smeared. Especially during election time. No man is an island.

Did Bush stand up for himself against charges against him or did he have his RNC machine do it with their RW media cogs?

The Dem spokespeople were outmanned and undisciplined and no match for a machine that controlled most of the broadcast media.

[Mutley]

92. It is ironic...

but we really can't, or shouldn't, be attacking the few Dems that are standing up for what is right at this point in time, whether they've made mistakes in the past or not.

[sasquatch]

94. Mmm...But we shouldn't forget the past either

[seabeyond]

96. you have forgotten the past and persist in telling a falsehood.

i would love for you to actually remember the past. this would be a lot easier. further, you seem to be forgetting purposely. which begs for me to ask why?

[sasquatch]

99. I'm not going to remember your version of the "past"

I'm going to remember the actual one.

[Mutley]

98. I didn't say we should forget the past...

but I did say we need every voice we can get right now, and I'll be more than happy to have John Kerry's voice on this issue. The past can be dealt with at the polls.

[seabeyond]

95. the irony for me is kerry is doing what is honorable, and he didnt

have others doing the same. the irony is when he did stand up for himself he was attacked for talking baout his military causing him another mess to have to address and here you sit saying he did nothing.

i see a lot of irony. and most of it is coming from your comments

[FreedomAngel82]

91. I don't know if this means anything to you

but last year in December I remember reading an article with Kerry's ex-wife Julia. She said they talked a lot during the campaign and he wanted to go after them but the DNC (under McAullife) wouldn't let him. They didn't want negative attacks coming out of the campaign (remember Al Sharpton went away from the speech he gave the DNC he was going to do). I think Kerry got a lot of bad advice and should get rid of these people if he is going to run next time.

[sasquatch]

93. He should've told them to "Get fucked" like any intelligent person would

Ultimatley the decision is his and he didn't make it.

[seabeyond]

97. does it matter to you that he had no money to spend in the month

of august?

does it matter to you that in april of that year swift boat had come out, and press didnt even give them a full day before swiftboats were dismissed?

or does facts NOT matter to you?

does it matter to you when he did two weeks into it, stand up and speak out media aggressively attacked him for speaking out making the matter worse?

does any of that matter to you?

[sasquatch]

100. It cost no $$$ to speak to ABC, NBC and CBS

That is a fact and that is the end of the argument.

[seabeyond]

102. but another you chose to ignore is the media. the media

didnt want kerry and didnt want kerry to speak out and the few times he did it was a horrible thing for his campaign. even though he did as well as could be expected, he was soundly and outrageously attacked. leaving much of his time not talking to the people but defending himself with ridiculous repug talking points media used over and over and over.

but again, close your ears. ignore the facts. cause it is so much easier to diss this man for whatever your reasoning may be

you are wrong

[Wetzelbill]

103. Hey, like him or not, he was our candidate....

Listen Sasquatch, I am sick of you inane sissies calling out John Kerry. As if you could do any better. John Kerry kicked ass in Vietnam, what the hell have you ever done? I bet you tear up if you even break a nail. In fact, you probably make the French look tough. Seriously, where do you get off acting like this.

Sasquaches don't even exist either, asshole! Bite me!!!!

And you can kiss John Kerry's Massachusett's Liberal ass!

[sasquatch]

104. *snarf*

:rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

112. laugh all you want

I don't think your character assassination is funny one bit. It's Dems like you who continue to "Swift Boat" John Kerry over a year after the fact who are holding our party back.

Kerry screwed up, get over it. Unless you want a Bill Frist or John McCain presidency then I suggest you start being more supportive.

PNAC and Rove and Cheney are all coming up with ways to screw us over and you sunshine Dems still want to talk shit about John Kerry. If I ever saw you in person I would "Ho-check" your ass past midterms so the rest of us wouldn't have to deal with your shit.

[second edition]

105. After reading your unpithy postsI've decided- your an idiot! n/t

[Wetzelbill]

106. hell yeah! nt

[seabeyond]

107. i third it n/t

[sasquatch]

110. You do know they're being sarcastic don't you?

[seabeyond]

111. so they aren't saying your posts are idiotic? n/t

[Wetzelbill]

113. I don't know what Sasquatch is talking about but I'm dead serious

[Left_Winger]

119. ...

:spray:

[sasquatch]

114. Afraid not

Check out post #4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4331971

[Wetzelbill]

117. I don't know how you did that but that wasn't very cool

[sasquatch]

118. Yeah, he's probably crying himself to sleep is his Kerry Shrine

[seabeyond]

120. well you may think you are cute, giggle giggle. really just a jerk

are you saying you dont belong on this site? your purpose here is to cause problems? is this what you are about?

[sasquatch]

121. Hey it was Wetzellbill's idea not mine

My feelings about Kerry are true and reasonable.

[Tom Joad]

122. Why won't he support Murtha's call for immediate withdrawal!!

Don't tell me there is just a few months difference between the plans. Kerry's plan includes "benchmarks". If those benchmarks are not reached, then withdraw is delayed.

Murtha goes further. He says we should not change course on withdraw depending on what is happening on the ground in Iraq. Kerry's plan is for Vietnamizati... I mean Iraqization of the war. Reminds me of Nixon's plan.

[sasquatch]

123. Nixon was a angel compared to these crooks

[Skinner]

124. Locking

flame bait.