One-third believe victims of rape are to blame if they were drunk

[Thom Little]

Jason Bennetto
The Independent
Monday, Nov. 21, 2005



One in three people believe a woman is partly or completely to blame for being raped if she has been flirtatious, or is drunk, according to new research. More than a quarter also believe a woman is at least partly responsible for being raped if she wears sexy or revealing clothing, a survey of 1,095 British adults found.

Rape support groups described the findings as "appalling" and part of a "sexist blame culture". A second study found that police continued to provide a "patchy" service when they investigated rapes.

.......

One in five people think a woman is partly to blame if it is known she has many sexual partners, while more than a third believe she is responsible to some degree if she has clearly failed to say "no" to the man.

Just over a fifth of people said that if a woman was alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, she was totally or partly responsible. In each of these scenarios a slightly greater proportion of men than women held these views - except when it came to being drunk, when it was equal. More women (5 per cent) than men (3 per cent) believed that a woman was "totally responsible" for being raped if she was intoxicated. Victim Support, the national charity, urged criminal justice professionals and healthcare workers to "consider how best to educate people about the terrible impact of rape, with a view to changing these attitudes".



http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article328265.ece

[NMMNG]

1. Does this mean that robbery victims are to blame if they are drunk?

Or if they are wearing a Rolex, gold/platinum/diamond jewelry, or if they flash a wad of cash?


I suppose if women don't want to be blamed for inviting rape they should wear burkas, stay indoors at night and never drink liquor. :eyes:

[Azathoth]

8. Yes to the first part

A person who wanders through a bad part of town alone at night wearing a rolex and flashing a wad of cash is acting irresponsibly. They don't deserve to get mugged per se, but they are being negligent in their actions, which increases the chance of them being mugged.

As for the second part, I'd say common sense applies. Dressing in sexy clothes and getting drunk is not intrinsically wrong or irresponsible, but there are certain circumstances where it could potentially increase a woman's chance of being raped.

[FreedomAngel82]

327. So I guess

that wanting to look and feel good about yourself is a crime now eh? :eyes:

[rucky]

31. hey...nice sig line!

some of those burkas are hot, btw

[Sabriel]

159. Yes, and drivers are just ASKING to be carjacked

"Officer, someone just pulled me out of my car and drove off!"

"What do you expect, driving around like that? You should know better."

[JesterCS]

2. I'm sorry but

if you're running around.. in a revealing outfit, being a flirt, and drinking up a storm... you arent doing ANYTHING to keep yourself safe from rape. Making it more likely.

[bluestateguy]

3. Uh, you do have a flame suit on, right?

Get ready, pal.

[BlueIris]

6. He doesn't need a flamesuit, he needs a conscience.

And a new psyche.

It's so sweet of you to look out for a poster like that, though. A flamesuit. Right. 'Cause the flamebaiting was the worst thing about a comment like that.

[JesterCS]

19. it wasn't

flamebaiting. Its my opinion..... However. Different people have different opinions.

Do I think less of someone who was raped? No.
Could every woman who was raped have done something differently to prevent the rape? No.
Could SOME of them have prevented rape? Yes.

Keep in mind, I'm also only 23 years old. My view of the world is slightly different than someone that is say, 40.

Here is another example. I got made fun of, all through highschool for being overweight. Beat up, yelled at, treated like dirt, hazed, etc.

Is it partially my fault? Possibly. I could have worked out, or ate healthier. I might have been able to prevent it.
Is it still wrong? Yes.

[freeplessinseattle]

74. wow, no wonder you're so messed up

poor dear, those kids really brainwashed you, it's a shame.

[bumblebee1]

175. Jester,

even if you weren't overweight, those same people would have found another reason to make fun of you, beat you up and treated you like dirt. It still isn't right.

[FreedomAngel82]

333. Exactly

When I was in my later high school years I gained some weight and nobody ever bothered me. Some kids did bother my brother and he was pretty skinny. I'm sorry you were picked on but your weight isn't always a factor. If someone doesn't like you they'll find anything to not like you whether it's something with your appearance or not.

[LostinVA]

178. At 23 you should know better

No real progressive would EVER say a oman "asked for it" because of clothing, attitude, etc.

These words are just sickening. SICKENING. And in 2005.

Shame. Just shame.

I hope no one close to you is ever affected by this violent crime. Get it? VIOLENT CRIME. this is not a sexual crime at all. And someone 23 should know that, too.

[seabeyond]

204. and i say you absolutely have a point and i wont pretend

i dont understand what you are saying. the person who makes the decision to be abusive to another, in any means, is the one that gets to own it, you are right. but again, this is not a black and white, good and bad issue

[FreedomAngel82]

330. Tell that to a rape victim

who ends up pregnant! I know someone at my church who told about a week or so ago that he had a friend from high school who got raped and now she's pregnant.

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. So if you get drunk and flirtatious and I pick your wallet, spend the cash

you were asking for it?

Love to meet you. Could use the money.

[LostinVA]

179. Yup, Nikki -- it's your fault

How dare you for allowing a robber to victimize you!:crazy:

[ErisFiveFingers]

7. Burquas for everybody!

Can't be revealing anything, or freely talking to the opposite sex without a family man (chaperone) present, ya know, because you're just making it more likely to be raped.

Maybe women shouldn't be allowed to drive either? 'Cuz then they might be alone somewhere, so they might get raped?

(If I even thought I had to put a sarcasm tag on this, I'd feel really sad for what DU has become.)

[REP]

9. Yes, You Are Sorry Indeed

Yes, flirting, drinking and wearing an outfit that shows some skin is asking to be terrorized, beaten and have violence done to oneself. So is posting silly tripe. Right?

[JesterCS]

12. add.

I dont condone rape.. neither is it a light issue. I can see however both sides of the arguement.

[REP]

15. There Aren't Two Sides

Unless you're saying you can identify with a rapist, who wishes to inflict harm on woman.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Point of order...

...not all victims of rape are female!

[REP]

24. Sorry; I Was Thinking of the "Dressed Provocatively" Qualifier

Of course men can and are raped, but their mode of dress is usually not called into question. Usually.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. I understand.

When someone says "rape" the victim in most people's mine is female. I will admit that is true of me, and I am male and was raped. So, I understand that "compulsion." As for, the dress, in my community, gay, dress can be an "indicator" as much as with the straight community.

[REP]

35. I Was Thinking More Along The Lines Of

Dress as revealing or provocative, not as an indicator of sexuality. When a man is attacked, he usually isn't accused of "asking for it" by showing too much leg or wearing tight pants, whereas women are often questioned as to what they were wearing (low cut, tight, short, etc)when they were attacked. A man may be attacked because he is gay or thought to be gay, but it doesn't seem his attack is 'justified' by his being so sexy as to have brought it on himself.

[Azathoth]

18. There are different degrees of "rape"

Not all rape involves a guy in a ski mask jumping out from an alley and grabbing a random girl walking home from work. As Behind the Aegis noted below, there are situations where the rapist is not a deviant predator at all, such as instances where both parties know each other, are sloshed out of their minds, and one of them (or both of them), ends up going too far.

[JesterCS]

20. I agree

that violent rape is not teh fault of the victim.

but if you went out to a bar, dressed revealingly, flirted with a bunch of guys.. and gave them the insinuation that you were consenting, then woke up the next day complaining you got raped, you have noone to blame but yourself.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. You have the rapist to blame!

[JesterCS]

27. yes obviously :P n/t

[freeplessinseattle]

75. "insinuation" is very different from actual consent!

I sense some cognitive dissonance going on here,

[mondo joe]

96. Of course consent to sex is rarely verbally explicit.

I've had sex enough in my life, and I can't think of any time in which there was an official and clear YES given or asked for by either party.

That has nothing to do with more clear cut cases of rape, but there can be a a murky area regarding consent.

[FreedomAngel82]

341. When the rape victim

shouts "no, stop!" enough times that should be enough don't you think?

[VelmaD]

98. Fuck you...

I was going to try to reason with you but after reading several of your posts...all I can think of to say is fuck you. Just...go away and take your woman-blaming with you.

[MissB]

172. What Velma said.

Even if what she said will get deleted when the mods finish their cup of coffee this morning.

[LostinVA]

184. I third that, and request the Mods not to delete her post

[VelmaD]

186. Thanks, but I'm not sure it matters at this point...

THe person it was aimed at seems to have vacated this thread anyway.

[LostinVA]

183. The rapist is to blame

I am convinced you're just flame baiting.

Go play somewhere else where the frigging Neanderthals believe this shit.

Educate yourself, then come back when you have your FACTS straight.

[Catherine Vincent]

196. I'm speechless

[REP]

26. Wrong.

Rape is when one party does not consent. Only a "deviant predator" would have sex with someone who did not or is not able to consent. Understand?

[Azathoth]

32. You have much to learn, friend

"Consent" means nothing to someone who is drunk out of their mind. They can neither give it, or properly understand if it has been given. As with so many things in this world, the definition of rape is nowhere as simple and clear cut as you might like it to be.

A great deal of the cases of "rape" that are both officially and unoffically reported involve people who knew each other, who were heavily intoxicated, and who may have consented to lesser degrees of sexual contact but did not consent to intercourse. Those situations are far, far, far more ambiguous, even though they are often still legally considered "rape".

Edit: spelling

[REP]

37. Teach Your Grandmother To Suck Eggs First, Child

Like so many things in this world, the charge of rape is not made as lightly as you might like to imagine it is. It is not made after two people are simply out of their minds with drunkeness and have merely forgotten if one or the other has consented.

Someday you may understand this.

[Azathoth]

44. Ah, name calling, now we're getting somewhere

Like so many things in this world, the charge of rape is not made as lightly as you might like to imagine it is.

Errrr...wrong. The charge of "rape" is sometimes made under very ambiguous circumstances. In some cases, there is even a question of whether one party changed their mind after the fact. And there are often practical questions about the way the legal definition of rape is applied (ie. Can someone who is utterly drunk actually give their "consent"?).

Since you didn't even attempt to address the substance or reasoning of my post, I'll simply assume that you are either (a) woefully ignorant of what I am talking about, or (b) allowing some personal bias to color your view. Either way, you clearly have no intention of considering any facts or opinions other than your own.

[MarsThe Cat]

64. WRONG!

"It is not made after two people are simply out of their minds with drunkeness and have merely forgotten if one or the other has consented"

william kennedy smith, for one, might tend to disagree with you-

[PerpetualWinter]

85. I'd like to live in your fantasy world...

I've seen it so many times on campus and in the club I work at its not funny. Fortunately in the majority of those cases everything is dropped after the investigation begins, however since most of the allegations around here end in this manner the real incidents are often swept under the carpet.

[Dorian Gray]

111. I have a friend

who was so drunk that she went home with another friend. She came crying to me a week later, saying that she thinks she was raped by our mutual friend. She woke up in his bed, with her shirt and bra off. Her pants were on, though unbuttoned.

I spoke with him, and he says that they did not have sex. She was too drunk to do so, as was he.

I didn't know who to believe. I think she felt violated because she truly thought that they had sexual relations. She went to the hospital, but it was too late to take a rape test. So, to this day (12 years later), she has no idea what happened. I do not, either.

But, in this situation, the line is blurred. I didn't know if I should renounce my friendship with the accused rapist. I didn't believe my other friend was lying, but it was possible that she was so drunk she didn't remember what did or didn't happen. It would have been great if she could have taken a rape kit right away, to see if she had participated in any type of actual intercourse that night, but even that was left unresolved.

There are instances where the lines are blurred.

I'm also strongly of the opinion that a woman, once she says "no," is to be respected. Even if she changes her mind in the middle of intercourse. I've had really bad arguments with some of my male friends about that subject. (Thankfully, my husband was not one of them!) It's amazing the attitudes that are out there regarding females, and the Kobe Bryant case was a good test case of that. There was a lot of name calling re: his accuser. It was disheartening. Nobody deserves to be raped. Nobody deserves to be victimized in any way.

[MarsThe Cat]

69. in your opinion..

"Only a "deviant predator" would have sex with someone who did not or is not able to consent."

apparently you've never been a teen-age boy going thru puberty.

[bloom]

103. So you're saying that it is "normal" for teenage boys to rape?

Is that your argument?

It sure sounds like it.

In response to :"in your opinion.. Only a "deviant predator" would have sex with someone who did not or is not able to consent."

You wrote:

apparently you've never been a teen-age boy going thru puberty.

[salin]

132. or a young or old man who believes that when they want it

they should take it - regardless - as if it is their due.

Hence the high prevalence of rape.

[MarsThe Cat]

272. in a way, yes- it's in the genetic make-up.

but an average high school age boy, on a "date", or at a party, where perhaps drinking is involved, the "normal teenage boy" probably wouldn't consider it a moral dilemma, or rape even, to have his way with a passed out, or nearly so, teenage girl. I'm not saying that it's "right"- it's just the way it works. and it doesn't make the pubescent boy being driven by hormones a "deviant predator".

[VelmaD]

275. Hormones are no excuse...

Teenage boys who think it's ok to have sex with a passed out girl ARE deviant predators. And if that's the norm among teen boys then our society has a BIG fucking problem.

[MarsThe Cat]

287. natural urges are not deviant.

society is not the natural state. and in making sure that the gene pool stays healthy, the act of rape- in nature, is a completely natural act.
BUT-i'm not saying that it's permissable in a society of laws- it just doesn't change the fact that it's a completely natural act.

[VelmaD]

295. I have to disagree...

society is a natural state otherwise so many other animals, especially primates, wouldn't live in societies.

But that's not my big area of disagreement with you. You seem to be taking your definition of what's natural purely from the eyes of the male involved. Do you even care what's "natural" from the female's point of view?

[redqueen]

Honestly Velma I don't know HOW you can stand this.

How can you even seriously attempt to have a discussion with someone who thinks it's not deviant for a man to rape an unconscious woman?

[VelmaD]

305. I can't not have the discussion...

I feel like I have to change their minds...even if it's one man at a time. If we don't tell them they're wrong and why then they have no hope of ever understanding. By having the conversation at least the possibility is out there.

But it ain't easy.

[redqueen]

307. I get too #(&*%#$( angry.

I find that it's impossible for me to argue rationally with someone that has this mindset.

[lukasahero]

306. "Rape is a perfectly natural act"? Lovely. eom

[salin]

280. I would claim that is a failure of our society

not to instill a sense of wrongness in this. Not to teach the lasting after effects on the girl that such an action can have - the LIFE ALTERING effects. Perhaps if we had honest discussions about the impact of rape on its victims - including teenage girls, perhaps that might alter the behavior of some teenage boys who believe that a fit of pleasure for them is worth years of needed therapy if she wants to have a decent life for her. That perhaps his "needs" do not outweigh her long-term ability to have relationships. That perhaps his "needs" do not rationalize doing greate damage to her.

Or perhaps you don't think those things ought to be considered.... poor boy with raging hormones and all... his rights should never be denied... girls be damned. Oh, that's right, when they are raped, they are already damned.

[MarsThe Cat]

290. i never said it was permissable.

but it is how nature works. society and societal rules are not necessarily a natural state.

[salin]

293. rape is how nature works.

How socially darwinian of you. Once had a male DUer use such social darwinian terms to explain why men are abusive to women - that only the abusive ones get dates (that old drivel), that boys who are nice witness this and either join the abusers - or get breeded out... indeed he might have even said "it is nature..." :eyes:

[LostinVA]

326. God, that is such bulls@t

That's all I have to say. Shameful and sickening responses on this thread. Saying rape is natural. That is truly insane....

[LostinVA]

322. That is such a cop out "boys will be boys" statement

Puberty does NOT make a boy want to rape -- having a personality disorder does. Puberty makes you sex-crazed, but this is not the same thing, and it's appalling you think so. And that you think any "normal" kid will or wants to rape. And yeah, people, that includes date rape. If the woman says "no" and it continues, that's rape. Period.

[LostinVA]

188. Then that teenage boy is also a deviant predator

A rapist is a rapist, regardless of age. Fuck this "boys will be boys" line of argument.

Is this really DU in 2005? Sickening.

[MarsThe Cat]

281. no, he's not- unless you consider natural urges to be "deviant"...

nature provides the mechanism, society defines the 'rules'- when you get right down to it, "rape" is a completely natural act, and a teenage boy driven by hormones, spreading his seed without regard for the consequences is far from "deviant". BUT- i'm not saying that it's "right", in a societal setting.

[PerpetualWinter]

297. Its not the urge that is the deviance...

its the act of rape that is deviant. I have plenty of natural urges that are deviant in the eyes of society. Doesn't make them any less natural, but it doesn't make them any less deviant since its society that defince deviance.

[LostinVA]

328. Uh, yes he is -- he's a sexual predator and probably has a

personality disorder.

It is not right or normal or natural.

And you are the third person I'm putting on ignore. I don't read FUCKING MISOGYNISTIC SHIT from rape apologists.

[PerpetualWinter]

82. Absolutes are ridiculous...

I can think of a specific incident inside my group of friends where it happened, but none of us, including the female involved, consider it rape. It was an honest misunderstanding, and it really brought to the forefront the inability for the female to be assertive. She says she couldn't say no, and did not want to have sex, but the act occurred because she didn't tell him to stop. She didn't push him away or whatever. She simply says she was drunk and made a mistake, and he felt horrible about the incident when he found out what really went down.

Of course, I know plenty of feminazi's that are going to say that the guy is clearly a "deviant predator" here, but unfortunate mistakes really do happen.

Note: Most situations like the above are not like that, I know that. Fuck, I bounce in the only real nightclub in the area I see shit like this all the time. It just irks my ire to see people speaking in such absolutes like fundies.

[lukasahero]

92. "Feminazi's"? Listen to Limbaugh much? eom

[PerpetualWinter]

133. I was raised by a feminist...

It was really meant to be an off-handed joke.

[VelmaD]

137. I call bullshit...

what exactly about this quote from you was meant to be funny:
"Of course, I know plenty of feminazi's that are going to say that the guy is clearly a "deviant predator" here, but unfortunate mistakes really do happen."

'Cause I think I have a pretty braod sense of humor and I ain't laughing.

[PerpetualWinter]

140. I meant the use of the word "feminazi"

Not the entire statement. The fact that I have to clear that up to you though means that you are basically a member of the group that fits the "butt of the joke" label.

I'm actually quite the feminist in my own personal beliefs, however as I have already stated I dislike people who think they can think in absolutes on issues like this.

[VelmaD]

145. Real feminists...

don't go around spouting Rush Limbaugh insults.

Try again.

[PerpetualWinter]

147. Are you serious?

Anyone else wonder why I can't stand far left extremism more than far right extremism?

[VelmaD]

152. Probably fewer than the number who wonder...

why someone with less than 100 posts in on here using words like "feminazi" and whining about "far left extremism". :eyes:

[Finder]

276. Isn't this against the rules?

From DU rules:

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor."

[VelmaD]

284. Alert or don't...

doesn't matter to me. I wasn't the only one to point out the particular odor that comes with the word "feminazi".

[Finder]

304. I don't like alert.ing..I am one of those anti-censor type progressives...

that assumes we are all able to have an adult conversation without bothering the mods.

I think we give words too much power by our reactions sometimes. Just my opinion of course.

[VelmaD]

308. I don't generally alert either...

When people call me names (and I've been called some real doozies) I like it to stay up for everyone to see.

And I'm not ashamed of anything I have said on this thread (or any other for that matter). The mods can do with it what they will.

[LostinVA]

195. Velma's statement was NOT "far left extremism"

was it? No -- but you know that already.

Do all the kids have off school today or something?

[LostinVA]

191. Agreed, Velma

[raccoon]

218. Sounds like you're saying, "I meant no offense, if you

took offense it's YOUR fault."

Sounds like our fearless leader and his friends.

[PerpetualWinter]

321. I'll admit that somewhat yes...

however I'll also say that intentions and results are two completely different things. I already apologized for not putting the word in quotes to denote the sarcasm. The only reason I exploded is because her response was to call me a right winger.

[VelmaD]

329. Blaming others I see...

Take some personal responsibility for your own actions please.

[PerpetualWinter]

332. How many times over and over again do I have to say I was wrong...

and reacted poorly? That I should have put the word in quotes to designate the sarcasm?

What the fuck do you want? This:

I should have never used the word feminazi and every response to my using so was 100% justified and I am 100% at fault that it escalated into a pathetic fucking soap opera.

I'm more than willing to take my fair share of the blame (seems like I've said this mulitple times) yet you want to come out repeatedly and tell me that I won't.

Someone told me not to tell you guys to fuck off, well, I'm sorry, but I can't think of a better response. Fuck off.

[VelmaD]

336. Spare me...

you waited an hour and a half to respond to raccoon's post and when you did, after your "apologies", you just had to get a dig in at me and blame anyone but yourself for what happened.

It's pitiful. I've got a better one...Get Bent.

[PerpetualWinter]

342. I didn't fucking see it...

I responded as soon as I saw it. I'm sorry that I was so busy responding to all the other bullshit and trying to look at other shit on the site. I know that this is your pet issue so you are watching this bad Oscar like a fox.

Though would you really like me to go out and copy and paste every fucking post where I already said that I should have done things differently? Where I admitted fault? Oh wait, I just excluded it from this post so apparently I'm back to trying to blame you for everything.

Also, I just don't think "get bent" has the same power as "fuck off." Then again, some people say profanity is weak. I just say that the concept of profanity is weak.

[VelmaD]

346. My point was that...

after responding to all the "other bullshit" and the attempt to smooth things over by accepting some responsibility...you were right back at blaming me for what happened. Sorry for pointing out your inconsistent behavior. :eyes:

[PerpetualWinter]

349. I said the only reason "I exploded" as I did was...

you called me a right winger. All that did was state fact. Yes, I blame you for inciting me. You incited me, facts stipulate that. Though I even said in the thread your responded to that I should have done things differently (sounds like some acceptance of responsibility to me). However, I just made sure that I wasn't the only one taking any blame there, apparently I'm in the wrong.

Nope, sorry no inconsistent behavior. I think you are just so desperate to paint me as the bad guy you are going to grab every opportunity you can. That and both of us apparently need to get the last word in so its just not going to stop until we bore of it.

[VelmaD]

353. Actually, I went back and read and I never...

actually called you a right winger...though you came dangerously close to calling me a left wing extremist. And you did call me a fundie.

All I did was point out that you used right-wing insults and that real feminists generally don't use the term feminazi.

Kind of ironic that you're blaming a woman for inciting you on a thread about women "inciting" rape.

[PerpetualWinter]

357. I discussed this...

I interpreted the Rush comment as being called a right winger, primarily because of the multiple times on the board that I have been called a right winger. Oh, I got it... I misinterpreted what you meant based on my experiences on the board. I'm sorry, I know you would never possibly do that.

Also, I never called you a fundie, I said you were acting like a fundie. There is definitely a huge difference. I did call you an extremist though, I admit that. Which was based on the fact that you were acting like a fundie in your tactics.

[VelmaD]

361. So...you're the one who called...

people who disagree with you extremists, fundies, and not sensible...and I'm the one who acted like an extremist. What. Ever.

Let's make it really clear for those following along at home...you inferred from my comments that I thought you were a right-winger...I didn't actually call you one, it was your perception...and that made it ok for you to call me an extremist.

You know, this is almost entertaining on a slow day at work. I'm still not sure whether I'm buying this whole misunderstood moderate thing you've got going on...but it's amusing me so feel free to keep on digging.

[VelmaD]

354. I went back and read and I never...

actually called you a right winger...though you came dangerously close to calling me a left wing extremist. And you did call me a fundie.

All I did was point out that you used right-wing insults and that real feminists generally don't use the term feminazi.

Kind of ironic that you're blaming a woman for inciting you on a thread about women "inciting" rape.

[Finder]

294. It is called "rhetoric"...

and the point the poster was making is a valid one. I am sure many who answered the poll in the OP were considering all scenarios.

I for one believe rape is a crime of power/control not sex but...date rapists are not all violent offenders that should be put away for years(some are). I think the point is there are cases where a relativist position needs to be taken rather than an absolutist position.

[Azathoth]

105. Welcome to the club (no pun intended)

It just irks my ire to see people speaking in such absolutes like fundies.

Sadly, the Left has its share of "fundies" too. Different dogma, same mentality.

[VelmaD]

106. Oh good lord...

feminazis? Did you really just pull out that tired old shit?

Are you sure you're in the right place? :eyes:

[PerpetualWinter]

136. What amuses me is...

that the only comments I seem to really be getting here are on the comment meant to be a joke.

Though sometimes I do wonder whether or not I should be here. I am a moderate-leaning liberal. I am considered very liberal in my area (U.P. of Michigan) however when I was in Buffalo I seemed to be more of a moderate. It amazes me how if I don't tow the far left line sometimes the amount of shit I take on this board. Now I'm not going to be chased off by any means, I'm a longtime veteran of BBs and used to the BS politics of different boards. It just amuses me that people would rather stare at something that could have easily been intended to be shit stirring than the issue at hand.

[VelmaD]

138. read my reply to you above...

you might want to consider working on developing an actual sense of humor before you try to make jokes.

[PerpetualWinter]

143. lol...

This is the perfect example of why I dislike extremists even if we are on the general same side of the issue.

[LostinVA]

201. Good grief, two things:\

1.) WTF is an "extremist"? Anything left of Rush? Give me a break.

2.) I've been on this board a long time, a lurker for years before I joined, and Velma D is not an "extremist" in any way. She is a good Liberal, even if I don't always agree with her POV.

[PerpetualWinter]

209. Okay... before you open your mouth again please read...

The parts where I explain to her that the only reason I even said it is because she was using techniques that we on the left complain about the right using (though the far left uses it too). I understand her not liking me using the word, not that it would stop me, however I will not excuse her absolutist attitudes with me.

[lukasahero]

227. Self delete

[VelmaD]

230. Ouch...

that one is gonna leave a mark. :yourock:

[VelmaD]

216. I appreciate you standing with me...

but I've got to say...this guy really isn't worth even talking to at this point. It's all projection. If you don't agree with him you're an extremist...but we're the ones who are absolutists. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[LostinVA]

234. I love being a Far Left, Extreme, Extremist, Absolutist Feminazi

It makes my man-hatin' heart all cold and bitter!

[LostinVA]

198. There are plenty of moderates and even conservative Dems on this board

And no one is attacked for not towing any imaginary "far left line." They are usually only attacked when they start quoting RW memes and buzzwords.

No liberal, conservative to "extreme" (whatever the heck that means) would use feminazis.

I do not think you meant it as a joke. It did not read as a joke in any way.

[PerpetualWinter]

199. Its the internet man...

Unfortunately sarcasm doesn't translate well.


(and I use "man" in a non-gender specific stoner manner... I better specify or you may get to keep my balls under the sink).

[LostinVA]

202. Why such the nasty reply?

Having to ONCE AGAIN get in a little "crazy woman" crack. I use that term alot. Just showing ONCE AGAIN how narrow your worldview is of things.

And, you were not being sarcastic. There is no way to read what you wrote as such, and you know that.

On Edit: "man" was well in else before stoners were called stoners, trust me.

[PerpetualWinter]

213. How was that a nasty response?

And I'm afraid it was definitely sarcasm, unfortunately as I said it doesn't translate well to the internet. I suppose I could have put it into quotes, but I felt that took away from the statement about. If I would have said it verbally the tone of my voice would have definitely given away the sarcasm.

On "On edit" comment: Oh trust me I know, I was just trying to crack a joke. Next time, I'll be sure to put the "Joke disclaimer" before it.

[geek tragedy]

109. Feminazis? You know this isn't the Free Republic, right? eom

[Azathoth]

120. I don't think he was using it in the El Rushbo sense

I think he was trying to refer to those absolutists who see things as utterly black and white.

Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I'll have to eat my words...

[VelmaD]

123. That word is a dead giveaway...

that someone is not really all that progressive.

[Azathoth]

125. I'll take your word for it

His post seemed fundamentally reasonable, but then again, I've never been good at sniffing out trolls, since I myself am often at odds with some of the posters on DU.

[PerpetualWinter]

146. You want to act more like a fucking fundie?

Seriously here, I love the whole "your either with us or against us" attitude that is getting thrown at me. Then again, it happens all the time here whenever I don't tow the far left line.

[VelmaD]

149. It's almost amusing...

how you can't seem to reply to anyone in this thread without resorting to calling them names.

[PerpetualWinter]

155. Okay, so I can be attacked baselessly, but..

if I respond its not okay. I can be called a Freeper, even though there is nothing further from the truth, but if I respond in the same manner you want to demonize me? This is the honest problem with this board, too many of you fucking tow the line liberals that will bitch about people on the right doing the EXACT same thing. Fuck off.

[VelmaD]

157. So you use Rush Limbaugh's favorite gender slur...

and then expect not to get called on it. You used an insult that the right-wingers throw around...so don't go claiming it was a baseless accusation on my part. And given the number of people who called you on it...I'm not the only one who made the connection.

And like I said elsewhere...with your 100 posts you're opinion on me, other liberals, and this board counts for just about jack shit.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

[PerpetualWinter]

166. Yeah, I did use it...

because I know it pushes feminist's buttons. I was raised by one. However, any level minded feminist would have realized what I meant by it. In fact someone here did realize exactly what I meant by it. You however are clearly the type of feminist I was referring to when I said "feminazi" so you are offended by it (funny thing is my mother will say that she's a feminazi and proud of it, though she's not as extreme on a lot of issues as the people I referred to). I apologize for not allowing you to express your feelings without any recourse. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.


More proof that everything has to be a fucking soap opera.

[VelmaD]

168. Gee...gender stereotype much...

I call you for using a gender slur so therefor as a woman my feelings must be hurt. What. Ever. :eyes:

Have you ever considered that you'd be better off not pushing the buttons of people who are on your side but rather going and actually fighting with the opposition?

Makes me wonder which side you're actually on. And if you don't understand why using a term like feminazi on a liberal board when you have less than 100 posts might not be a good idea...then you REALLY need someone to explain net manners to you.

[PerpetualWinter]

176. That is NOT a gender slur...

Unless there is no such thing as a male feminist. If that is the case then you are far to gone to truly grasp where I'm coming from. A movement has no gender and feminazi is a term that mocks specific members of the movement. And in my situation its a term that mocks the extremists of the movement.

Funny thing is that someone got exactly what I mean so apparently I wasn't too far off on being able to use that word on this board. As for my "net manners," I think we are both on the same level really on our use of "net manners." The catch is I'll admit that I'm a bit of an asshole, and apparently you think you're a fucking saint.

[VelmaD]

180. No...I know I'm not a saint...

I'm just reacting the way anyone would on this board after 4 years of constant attacks from trolls. You have to understand what you stepped into. For years now we've had to deal with people coming in here from conservative boards to disrupt. They build up a few posts...then start spouting right-wing nonsense until they get caught and banned.

When you have few posts and then proceed to jump into a controversial topic and use right-wing slurs...you have to expect to catch some flak.

And I'll say it again...when Rush uses the term feminazi he ain't talking about men. I know it. You know it. You can try to argue around it but I don't think you'll find many who will buy it.

[PerpetualWinter]

185. I do understand what I stepped into...

I've been an internet BBer for more than just my adult life. I know exactly how it goes. I don't have a problem so much with you coming at me, hell believe it or not I understand, I have a problem with being attacked for responding. I never once said that I didn't expect some flack, I just despise the attitudes that you gave me of "its okay for me to attack but not you" and the whole "you are either with us or against us." Those are the exact tactics that us liberals consistently attack the right for doing, but we are more than willing to use them when infighting and its okay.

As for Rush using the term "feminazi." I think if confronted with a feminist male he'd use the same term, but there aren't many (any?) prominent feminist males. However that is really a moot point, because Rush doesn't have a copyright on that word. Hell, I knew that word before I ever heard Rush use it. The fact of the matter is that I said it, not Rush. If you can't seperate us, I'm sorry that you go through life that way.

[VelmaD]

194. You have a much different perspective on what happened...

than I do. See, I called you on your use of a right-wing slur...and you called me a fundie. Calling me names doesn't sound to me like you were ok with me coming at you.

So you know, I'm pretty sure Rush coined the term feminazi.

[PerpetualWinter]

203. I called you a fundie because...

you gave me the whole "you are either with us or against us" absolutism attitude. It had very little do with you disagreeing with my use of the word, I can completely understand that though thats not going to stop me from doing so. If people didn't constantly bitch about the right using the same techniques you used against me we probably wouldn't have an issue (other than my use of the word).

[VelmaD]

208. I think you're projecting...

with this whole with me or against me thing...cuase nobody else seems to be reading that into what I said. All I said was that liberals don't generally go around spouting right-wing slurs.

You on the other hand have now asserted that people who don't agree with you are not sensible.

[PerpetualWinter]

249. I have never seen it as a right wing slur...

Sure they use it, but they have no copyright on it. I refer to the biggest local public official that calls for smoking bans the "Smoking Nazi," I refer to Joan Rivers on E! as a "Fashion Nazi," and Seinfeld had his "soup nazi." That is the biggest issue here I guess. Its just a shame the the most appropriate term for certain extremists is used heavily by the "enemy." I won't change because you or anyone else doesn't like it.

Also, the only reason I made the "sensible"/"non-sensible" thing is in response to people calling for me to be banned. Funny thing is, I see people complain about people of right-winger sites doing the same thing.

[VelmaD]

273. You just keep telling yourself that...

it's pretty obvious to the rest of us exactly what you meant with the whole "sensible/non sensible" thing.

Face it...you're busted.

If you don't see feminazi as a right-wing slur...then you must have been living under a rock for the last decade or so.

[PerpetualWinter]

283. Whatever...

You know I just sent you a private message apologizing for not being real clear and quoting the word as sarcasm. But clearly I just sent that as a tactic to try to fool you into believing I'm a right winger.

Yeah, I'm a right wing lunatic. I think we should pray in homeroom, you as woman belong chained in the kitchen and your body belongs the men in your life, I think we should hand out 9mm's on the corner of the ghetto, I think if you are picked up for possession 1/8 oz of marijuana they should throw away the key, etc.

Fucking christ people...

And now in the real world I'm going to go smoke a fucking bowl, listen to some blasphemous metal and wonder how you people can be so fucking insane to believe that I'm a right wing nut.

[PerpetualWinter]

285. Oh, and be afraid I'll soon be teaching your children...

since I am a political science secondary education major (I'm a junior).

[VelmaD]

289. Maybe it was the fact...

that you refered to those who disagreed with you as left wing extremists. Just a guess. :eyes:

[PerpetualWinter]

292. I was wrong to do so, but it was in response to being called a right ...

winger. Think about it from this perspective. If you were a moderate democrate who on more than one occasion has been called a right winger on this board because I may not tow the liberal line how would you react to being told to go listen to Rush more? I couldn't interpret it any other way.

I apologize for calling you an extremist. However, I can't say that I wouldn't reply in the same fashion presented the same circumstances

[VelmaD]

299. And I can't say...

that if you use right-wing slurs in the future I won't react exactly the same way. But at least we both know where we are. :)

And btw, it's toe the line. I don't like to get on poeple about spelling and grammar...I make plenty of typos myself. But I figure if you really are just a misunderstood moderate I can save you some future grief by reminding you to always spell check (you misspelled Democrat).

[PerpetualWinter]

303. I'm far too lazy to spell check...

funny thing is I'm a writer and spell check is my best friend. Also, I knew it was toe the line, but for some odd reason "tow the line" just made sense today (well, it really does make sense overall when you think about it) (I haven't had a full nights sleep in over a week).

[LostinVA]

211. There is NO such thing as a "feminazi"

It is only a RW slur.

And there you, using "extreme" in your post again! I may make a drinking game out of this. Where's my Guinness???

[geek tragedy]

233. So you used the word "feminazi" because you knew it would

piss off feminists?

Troll much?

[LostinVA]

207. Don't tell us to "fuck off"

Knock it off.

[LostinVA]

205. And saying "far left" and "extreme," and saying WE'RE all wrong

[PerpetualWinter]

139. Exactly...

I despise fundamentalists on both sides. Though in many cases I'll battle a far left whack job more than the far right whack job because I get associated with those on the far left.

[VelmaD]

142. Yeah...'cause far left "whackjobs" are the real problem...

facing this country.

I call bullshit again...you fight with the "far left" because it's easier than sucking it up and actually standing up against the far right nuts that are actually dragging our country down. :eyes:

One needs only look at the language you use to figure you out.

[PerpetualWinter]

151. Wow... what a suprise.

You missed my point. Oh well, as with every movement its the extreme activists that hurt perfectly good issues.

[VelmaD]

154. You know what...

given your low post count and the fact that you have no fucking clue who I am...your opinion means exactly jack shit.

Somehow I don't see blaming women for being raped as a "perfectly good issue".

[PerpetualWinter]

160. I never once blamed women... + more.

NEVER

Neither of us know each other, however since I made an offhanded comment you disagreed with you attacked me with sweeping judgments of my entire person. I responded by saying that you are an extremist on this issue and I don't like extremists. Then you responded by telling me that I can't respond without attacking you. Hmm... any bit of hypocrisy here? Trust me I understand the whole board seniority thing you bring up here, and I don't ask for you to take my opinion as anything more than some random dude who gave his opinion. However, I do expect to be treated with a little respect and on equal ground (ie... you attack me, I'm allowed to attack you even if it hurts your feelings).

[VelmaD]

164. One last time...

using the term feminazis is not a joke or an offhand comment...it's perpetuating a right-wing spin of women who agitate for equality as the moral equivalent of Hitler. Real liberals/progressives/DEmocrats don't go around spewing right-wing slurs.

Your use of insulting language started this whole thing. Period.

[PerpetualWinter]

167. Oh, thats fine, we can disagree there...

I figure that on a liberal board you can make those comments indirectly mocking the right while making a simple point about extremism. Apparently not. In the future I'll try to be more sensitive of your feelings and be more liberal PC.

No wait. Never have towed that line and never will. I'm going to use my sarcasm and cynicism to its fullest ability. If you want to take offense to it thats fine.

However, in all honesty I think you do owe me an apology for trying to put words in my mouth. As I never once said we need to blame women for what happens to them. All I really said in the grand scheme of things is that you can't think in absolutes.

[VelmaD]

170. How exactly were you mocking the right?

It sure as hell didn't come across that way since feminazi is only used to mock women on the left.

[PerpetualWinter]

171. Who says a feminist has to be a woman?

[VelmaD]

174. Oh good grief...

yeah, when Rush uses that term he's talking about men. :eyes:

[PerpetualWinter]

177. Rush didn't use the term... I did.

I'm sorry that you can't seperate a moderate leaning liberal from a right wing loon.

[VelmaD]

182. If you really want to distinguish yourself...

from him...don't use his favorite epithet. Simple as that.

[PerpetualWinter]

187. Naw, I'd rather be able to be my own person...

instead of towing the line to make other people happy.

[LostinVA]

214. MAN, you use extreme or extremist in every post

Way to learn the meme! Seriously, man, I am so damn proud of you, man for using all of the great catch words, man, like "far left" and "extremist." Man, you are soooo cool, man.

And guess what, man? I'm putting you on "ignore" man, because I'm tired of playing with the flame baiters who are home from school on Thanksgiving break, man. Have fun, 'cause I know Velma D can handle you, man. Know why?

'CAUSE SHE'S A FLAMING FEMINAZI, MAN!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[VelmaD]

219. Heeeeeee...

that's gotta be the best laugh I've had in months. :yourock:

[LostinVA]

190. The hell with your" femnazis" -- go listen to Rush

Man, they are out this morning. Where the heck are the mods?

[PerpetualWinter]

192. lol...

So far the score is:

Sensible Liberal That Got My Meaning: 1

Knee jerk reaction liberal (possibly the target of my comment): 2

[VelmaD]

197. You're digging yourself in deeper...

I was starting to consider cutting you some slack but every time you open your mouth you change my mind.

So only people who agree with you are sensible? Weren't you the one complaining about people who think in absolutes?

[raccoon]

225. Velma, you're either for him or against him!

He seems to view it that way.

[PerpetualWinter]

254. Hey, she called for the mods to step in...

and I had already read another post where it seemed like she wanted me banned. It was a fair response.

[LostinVA]

217. tsk tsk tsk... now you called VelmaD and myself Feminazis

Yup, trolling.

Even my Conservartive Dad would never do that.

[MsTryska]

344. I got your meaning too.....

i'm reading through this thread, and this whole interchange - and i'm having a flashback to my many encounters that started off just like this.


i'm female and i'm not int he least upset about the use of feminazi.



and i don't even associate it with rush, i guess because i've never bothered listening to him.

[PerpetualWinter]

350. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For some odd reason I don't know too many feminists who are truly offended by the term.

Oh wait, I'll head off the responses, those people clearly aren't true feminists. They are really right wingers trying to trick us.

[MsTryska]

359. *lol* you should have been around to see the

shitstorm that blew up the day i used the words hysterical and pro-choice in the same post.


anyways - i've been around enough to see some hazy scenarios myself, that really do fall into a gray area.


here's a situation....what happens when you see a girl who truly can't hang, drunk off her ass, high as a kite, and divebombing random male crotches. you try to help her out and tell her she needs to simmer down a bit, because she might wind up in trouble, and she tells you to fuck off, she's a grown-ass woman and can handle herself.



later on she's in a backroom having a train run on her, and when she sobers up she plays it off like she's okay with the whole thing.


imo, she was raped. and she was asking for it. yet she got exactly what she wanted. that situation leaves me feeling ambivalent to this day.

[Azathoth]

363. Dude, you really stirred up a shitstorm

I thought I was bad, but you outdid me :toast:

[ieoeja]

364. Add one-half to both sides.

While I did not respond (mostly because I just hit this thread), I did have a knee-jerk reaction to the use of "feminazi". But two things make me more prone to accepting your claimed status politically:

First, with the exception of that one word in that one post, your posts have been pretty reasonable. You really got me with the post referencing the fact that you spend more time arguing with the far left than the far right because ... you spend more time speaking with people on the left than on the right. In that exchange (which did not go very far) you clearly emerged the "victor" in my opinion as someone immediately jumped on the fact that you spend more time arguing "against the left" which sort of made your point of people reacting instead of thinking.

Second, if I read correctly you are now a junior in college. At your tender age you will likely have heard the word "feminazi" your whole life. In truth, Rush Limbaugh did invent that name. But you would have been in the third or fourth grade when he did so.


All that being said, I would suggest you cease the use of "feminazi" in the future because those of us a bit older than you DO recall it being coined by Limbaugh and will assume you are a Dittohead when we hear/read you using it.

[raccoon]

215. "feminazi's"--sounds like Rush Limbaugh.

"Most situations like the above are not like that, I know that."

I'm glad you realize that.

[raccoon]

221. "irks my ire "? that's like saying, "It annoys my anger." nt

[PerpetualWinter]

257. cliches can be fun :-D

[MarsThe Cat]

296. EXACTLY.

all the guys involved in such acts are NOT "deviant predators", anymore than the women are all just sluts who were asking for it.

[PerpetualWinter]

298. However, most involved are...

Society defines deviance not nature.

[Finder]

317. But...prosecutors know that.

Unfortunately those who participated in the poll are blaming the victim for a crime, not an indiscretion or mistake that most likely would not have even been charged. This is why women are so afraid to report rapes...we have to justify that it was truly a rape. No other victim is required to do so.

[Judi Lynn]

45. Truly! How hard can it be to understand? You really have to wonder. n/t

[MarsThe Cat]

65. not always

it's a myth to say that rape is always a crime of "violence" or "inflicting harm on women".

a drunken date-rapist is usually just interested in sex.

[LostinVA]

220. Rape is a crime of control and violence - Always

"Violence" doesn't mean you have to get beaten up.

[salin]

291. until druken date-rapist is told NO under no uncertain terms

and decides that it is his entitlement to get sex anyway - and uses power to acquire what he desires. Suddenly Power is entwined in the act of seeking sex.

[noiretextatique]

206. interesting point

indentifying with a rapist, that is.

[Hosnon]

238. It is the mark of an educated man (woman) to be able to entertain

an idea without accepting it.

Aristotle

Nothing wrong with examining in issue in its entirety...even if it makes your skin crawl.

[salin]

274. sadly in these conversations the other side almost exclusively means

the degrees of responsibility that should be ascribed to the victim.

The one side of the issue that I have yet to see honestly discussed on a thread at this site - in the years that I have been here - is WHY is rape so pervasive? Why are one in three women raped before they are 30? Unless we are foolish enough to believe that there are only a handful of rapists raping a huge number of women each, why are we not as a society asking - what is it in our culture that spawns an attitude that allows some (too many) boys/men to believe that sex is a right/entitlement, and that if/when a female does not comply, it is a right/entitlement to "take" - by force is necessary? Why don't we ever have that conversation - wouldn't that be the mark of an enlightened man/woman... even if it made the skin crawl... to have THAT conversation? What are we teaching our boys? What are showing by example to our brothers and nephews? What's Going On?

[alarimer]

62. You are blaming the victim

which is despicable. Obviously nothing bad has ever happened to you. what about blaming the men who can't control themselves?

[salin]

130. This is why rape is such an under-reported crime

fear, regardless of the circumstances, that the blame will be attributed to the victim - who will not only have to relive the life changing trauma but who would then be subject to a second trauma.

Twenty some years ago - as a victim, even at the encouragement of friends, I could not bring myself to report it for fear of responses and beliefs such as yours. While I was not drunk, was not flirtatious, nor was I showing skin, I still feared that blame would come back around on me - and couldn't deal with the double traume - even though the few around me who supported me tried to reassure me that this wouldn't be the case (they were also women, btw, so the "I can see both sides" bs wasn't engrained in their psyche.)

I lament the fact that things clearly have not changed much for victims of rape in the past 20 years.

[LostinVA]

181. Two sides? Are you frigging insane???

Two sides? That's it -- IGNORE.

[stanwyck]

193. Do you also see both sides

of other crimes? Like pedophilia? The child didn't "keep himself safe" from the predator?

[MercutioATC]

13. If I understand you correctly...

You're saying that certain behaviors increase the chance that something bad will happen to you. I'd agree with that.

Rape (or any other crime) isn't the "fault" of the victim, but keeping oneself safe is an important part of the equation. I completely believe that "no" means no. However, people do bear some responsibility for their own safety.

[JesterCS]

17. Yes

Thats what i meant.. i didnt mean to place the blame squarely on the female. Rapists, are messed up in the head. I beleive their form of punishment should be castration.

I'm just saying. There are certain people out there. That involve themselves in risky behavior as some sort of thrill, then when something happens to them, they are completely shocked, like they didnt know the consequence of their actions. Now I'm not saying women who dress a specific way should have " could i get raped for wearing this " foremost in their minds, but have some common sense. You know how the world is in this day and age. Think ahead.

IMO it would be like working around open live electrical wires. If you're sober, you wont touch em, because you know. If you're drunk, you might stumble and fall into a live wire and it will electrocute you.

Ok so its a bad example, but its all i could come up with at 6am =p

[tkmorris]

29. Bingo

You said with few words what I said with many further downthread. I think that means you win :)

[salin]

134. wonder how many instances of accused rape have nothing to do

with the "we were both drunk" scenario?

Domestic violence ... guess the victim should have gotten out sooner (and there are NO such things as battered woman syndrome)

Acquaintance rape ... guess the victim should have "known" the person was likely to rape and thus avoided said person (as if one can "know" - do rapists have a tell tale sign? My boyscout rapist sure as hell didn't)

Grabbed from behind rape (as happened when I was in grad school) ... the vic shouldn't have been walking to the entrance of the building - there was a bush where a rapist could hide at 6:30 in the am, afterall.

Somehow we never take the same "subscribe some of the blame to the victim for not being more safe" arguments to say... victims of beatings, or murder.

[raccoon]

228. Exactly. Some posters here seem to be focusing exclusively

on the "we were both drunk" scenario.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Apologist, of sorts

Perhaps you didn't mean to come across as an "apologist," but saying that reasons exist because of the victim is apologist behavior. No one should ever have to fear rape, no matter their past, clothing, level of intoxication, or sexuality. It would be no different than saying I "made it more likely" to be a victim of "gay-bashing" because I am not a big, butch man, but a slight, gay man, who wouldn't fool dead people about my sexual orientation.

[Boomer]

33. And no one should be poor or hungry either

By all means prosecute someone to the full extent of the law if they rape a woman, but the law will only punish your rapist, not stop him in the first place.

Speaking as a woman, any woman who puts herself in an extremely vulnerable position on purpose is engaging in very risky behavior. Regardless of what "should" be possible and "should" be safe in this society, the harsh reality is that a drunk coed at a frat house kegger is probably going to end up in a gang bang.

Was she "asking" for it? No, but she got it anyway, and no degree of high-minded, indignant, idealistic statements about her freedom to be an idiot without paying the consequences is going to change that fact.

Every woman needs to draw her own line between personal safety and personal freedom. The farther out you draw the line, the greater your risk for becoming the victim of sexual predators. That's the reality. Every time work late at the office, and leave when the parking lot is empty, I've drawn that line in favor of doing a good job at the risk of being attacked in that lot.

I KNOW I've made that choice, and I think it's worth it because I love the work that I do and I need the income.

And if the best you can do with a desire for personal freedom is get roaring drunk at a party of semi-strangers then you must be prepared to prepare the price for that choice, too. Because there will be price.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Therefore...

...I should be "too gay" in public because I would bring an attack on myself?

It shouldn't matter, EVER, what a woman wears, how late she works, or if she has a skirt that shows her 'business,' she is NEVER responsible for being the victim of a rape! EVER!

We all face the possibility of "saying the price." It does not, however, excuse or justify violence. It may not be a "reality," but it doesn't 'justify' the attack as the victims fault. It is the same as saying..."well, the person walking in the "bad" neighborhood at midnight was "asking for it," but the person walking through the "good" neighborhood and got attacked was a "victim.""

[Boomer]

50. You're confusing idealism with reality

Yeah, being "too gay" in public risks being attacked. Is this news to either of us? Every time I walked out of a gay bar in Brooklyn, I knew I was taking a risk. I made a conscious choice to accept that risk (until I figured out I didn't much like bars). I make a choice to dress like a pretty obvious gay woman because my degree of psychic comfort is worth the risk of being shunned, or fired, or cursed out. I've never paid that price, but I never took that good fortunte for granted.

I'm not excusing or justifying the violence, but I'm acknowledging it.

Every day I make certain choices that balance my desire for what I want against the price I may have to pay for it. This is not fair. This sucks. But it's how the world currently works.

So any woman who gets roaring drunk and puts herself in a position of vulnerability needs to recognize that some degree of choice was made and accept personal responsibility for that choice.

This says NOTHING about how I would vote in a court of law while judging her rapist. Her behavior is NOT an excuse for breaking the law or for the immorality of taking advantage of an idiot. But sentencing her rapist to prison does little to help her after the fact.

[Silverhair]

73. Outstanding set of posts.

You have explained an ugly truth very well.

[Dorian Gray]

118. I think that Boomer

is saying what many might mean to say. And quite eloquently, too.

I don't blame anybody but the rapist for the attack. But, I purposefully do not walk in the middle of Prosepct Park by myself after dark. (I live in Brooklyn, Boomer!) It's just one way where I use my common sense. (There are murders, muggings AND rapes in there, at times.) I also would not walk in Central Park by myself at night. It's just common sense.

If I were to do so, and I was raped, I would not blame myself for the attack. But, I will do anything that I can to help myself from not being victimized.

[Azathoth]

53. Your example is an interesting dichotomy, but a truism none the less

When a person walks through a "bad" neighborhood alone at night, he/she is putting himself in a situation he knows to be risky. The same is not true (at least to the same extent) with a "good" neighborhood. Personal responsibility requires responsible behavior. Willfully acting in a way you know puts you in danger is irresponsible (unless, of course, there are mitigating circumstances).

None of this, of course, has anything to do with the guilt of the rapist/robber.

[noiretextatique]

362. a false dichtomy nonetheless

you can walk thru a "bad neighboorhood" and have nothing happen to you, and walk thru a "good neighborhood" and get robbed, raped and/or murdered.

[Azathoth]

366. Interesting, isn't it?

You're right of course, that could happen. But it wouldn't change a thing. One is far more risky, and thus far more irresponsible, than the other. It's what is known in the business world as "risk management." :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

55. but there should also be a price paid by drunken frat boys

I grew up on a university campus and saw, with my own eyes, some of the dangerous and despicable escapades drunken frat boys got into (including trying to murder my grandmother 'for fun'). In the incidents I saw NOTHING was done, not even confiscating the beer in the houses - this was in the 50s when it was illegal to drink before the age of 21. Though the campus I grew up on was in the Midwest, I can't help but wonder if the attitude of the police was similar in places like, say, New Haven. We know what happens when drunken Yale frat boys never have to pay for their actions, don't we?

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. "Probably going to end up in a gang bang"?

That's a vicious culture in which that can be said. Anyone belonging to a society like that needs to be reeducated on civilized behaviour. I've been to plenty of drunken parties with semi-strangers, and there's never been any instances of sexual assaults, let alone "gang bangs" (which to me means rape by multiple people - does it have the same meaning in the USA?). At risk of accidents, yes - drunken people are clumsy, but anyone place where rape, or any other purposeful violence, is the outcome of getting drunk is somewhere totally barbaric - it's the spirit of Abu Ghraib. That you think collusion in such acts would be 'probable' either means you have a very low opinion of humans, or know some truly appalling men.

[TomClash]

22. When men get in bar fights . . .

. . . why don't the police say the guy who loses was asking for it?

If you eliminate women drinking, flirting and dressing provocatively, you take all the piss out of life. Plus, summer would be ruined.

Here's how we deal with rape in Brooklyn - Vito, Chaim, Sean, Jose, Marcus and Abdullah come over to the house and castrate the guy. Then they take him to the police and say "he was shaving and the razor slipped."

[Ilsa]

116. I don't think you understand what rape is

It's not about some horny guy. It's about power and finding a victim. Those little old ladies who get raped in their homes weren't showing too much cleavage. I wore a business suit to work every day when my home was broken into and I got raped. Many rapes have nothing to do with women being out drinking showing cleavage, legs, or belly.

BTW, alot of rapists have a very difficult time getting an erection.

[dogday]

126. You know male rape is up in this country

I hope that you never have to face it. It won't matter what you are wearing or drinking or doing. If someone is out to get you, they do, no matter what you are doing.

Remember men are getting raped a lot more in this country as well, how are they asking for it?...

[VelmaD]

129. Oh that one is easy...

didn't you know if a man is put in prison he's asking to get raped? At least that's what some people around here seem to think when they joke around about what'll happen to Libby or Rove if they go to jail.

Some people around here just aren't all that progressive.

As for men in the free...I guess they're just flashing too much tit. *snort*

[Greyhound]

156. OMFG! What century is it? What country am I in?

I can't believe I'm even reading shit like this on a computer. I guess this quote says it best;
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it." - K, Men In Black

[Ravenseye]

165. I understand what you're saying

...but it's just plain wrong. That argument is the equivalent of saying that..

A man walks into a shooting range into the target area, nobody is currently shooting when he does this. Then he starts running around back and forth in front of the targets like a madman, blocking the targets. Someone comes in with a gun to do target practice, and sees this guy running around back and forth in front of the target.

Sure the guy running around the targets is just plain DUMB, but that doesn't give the guy with the gun the right to shoot him (I know you're not saying this), and it doesn't make the guy responsible in any way for being shot. Are you more likely to get shot if you do this?

The responsibility for rape lies 100% on the shoulders of the rapist, no matter what the victim does.

[stanwyck]

189. Keep yourself safe from rape?

Are you for real? So, women who are raped...didn't keep themselves safe...from rape? It's not really a crime, then? Because the victim "didn't keep HERSELF safe" from the, maybe-not-a-crime? So, if your house burns down...you didn't keep yourself safe from fire? OR if you're shot in a drive-by..you didn't "keep yourself safe".
Your mentality shows the problem with this crime. It's a crime of violence...which you blame on the victim.
You lack education. Spend some time in an emergency room. Volunteer at a rape crisis center.
Then get back to us about "keeping yourself safe."
And, you're right. You ARE sorry.

[raccoon]

210. "Being a flirt" is very subjective.

There are lots of men out there who mistake a woman's being cordial or polite as being a come-on.

[maximovich]

241. The Taliban Agrees with You

That's why women are told to wear Burkas...

because some men don't have self control...

[demgurl]

270. I will speak up as a former rape victim.

Those who have read my earlier posts about my rape know I say former because I refuse to be called a victim any longer - I was raped and that is it. It took me about ten years to get to this point but I am here.

I never reported that rape, hell it took me years before I could even say the word rape! Part of the reason I did not report it is because of the beliefs people hold about who is responsible for such things happening.

I was drunk the night it happened. Did that mean I was asking for it? No. I was wearing sexy clothing but that does not mean someone had a right to hold me down and force themselves on me. I was flirting but isn't that supposed to be what college life is all about?

I was so ostracized in school. I can not tell you why but I can say that I always felt like the outsider. I never felt cute, funny or even pretty. I did manage to blossom and perhaps that is why I was trying to make the most of college. Sometimes I felt like the belle of the ball. Of course I wore cute and sexy things - I never had before and I was trying to find myself. Of course I drank - most college folk do. Of course I flirted, I had never had a chance to before because I was the outcast.

The only thing the alcohol did was make me less able to fend off my attacker. I still can feel his hands forcefully holding down my arms. I can still hear those words - me saying no and him slipping inside of me saying,"Too late". You have no idea how many times through the years those two words echoed through my head. Too late.

I did struggle but I could not get away but I will tell you one thing, no matter what I did it does not make it right for someone to force themselves on me.

Do people realize what it means when they place any blame on a victim? You set back people's rights but you also make it that much harder for people to come forward and press charges. I defy anyone to tell me that my drinking caused a man to lose all control of his sexual inhibitions and I am to blame - even partially. I defy them to say the same about drinking or the clothing a person wears. If that is the case then there is something really wrong with the rapist.

I am aghast. How dare anyone tell me I am responsible for being raped! I was not responsible in any way. The person unable to take no for an answer deserves to be in jail because it is all their fault!!!!!

demgurl

[ErisFiveFingers]

5. Whiskey... Tango... Foxtrot!?!

I came from Arizona, where laws about drunken sex went so far that even if a person was consenting, while drunk, and the other person had *any* sort of indication that they were intoxicated, that was considered enough grounds for charging someone with rape. IOW, even drunken "consensual" sex was possible grounds for rape charges, because the ability to give consent was impaired.

As far as expecting someone to "clearly" say no, I can't even imagine what these people are thinking. In my book, a partner has to say *yes*. Not a question of failing to say no... not a question of a partner saying even "maybe", or even "if you really want to", but "yes".

Arrgh... and "sexy" clothing? Being flirtatious? Prior partner history?

:banghead:

I think I need to avoid this thread, if for no other reason than my blood pressure possibly exceeding dangerous levels.

:argh:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freeplessinseattle]

77. you just gave yourself away n/t

[geek tragedy]

80. Bye bye. Have fun wanking to pictures of Ann Coulter, Freeptard. eom

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

88. Feminazi's? Interesting...

Considering the link you posted said "Feminists" not "Feminazi's".
Why'd you pick that particular word?
I have to agree with the poster right above me.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Question for you.

What if both parties were drunk? Would it be grounds for rape charges?

I am not "nailing" you. This is a very serious question. It seems, because most victims are women, that if the woman is drunk and the man is drunk, the man is a rapist. Why not the other way around? What about for gay men or women? What if the woman is sober and the man is drunk; has he been raped?

No one deserves to be raped...PERIOD! I don't care if they have fucked half of the East Coast and ride through the town square butt-naked with a sign saying "EASY!" Rape is NEVER about sex, and always about POWER!

However, your post about AZ laws brought up some interesting things in my mind.

[Moosepoop]

39. Aegis, you nailed it.

"No one deserves to be raped...PERIOD! I don't care if they have fucked half of the East Coast and ride through the town square butt-naked with a sign saying "EASY!" Rape is NEVER about sex, and always about POWER!"

I was going to post almost the exact same words.

I was raped, twenty-five years ago. I was 17, still a senior in high school. I was kidnapped at knifepoint, hog-tied and locked in the trunk of my car, brutally raped and left tied to two trees.

I was very "properly" dressed, having just left school. My shirt was loose, had long sleeves and a high neckline. My jeans were not tight. I did not have a long sexual history, and was not flirting or drinking when I was attacked.

You know what? It doesn't matter.

It would not have mattered if I'd had sex with the entire Midwest.

It would not have mattered if I'd been walking down the main street of town stark naked.

It would not have mattered if I'd been drinking, flirting, or wearing heavy makeup.

What happened was an episode of VIOLENCE, not sex!

There is NOTHING that could have excused the attacker for what he did.

Nothing.

No excuse. No "mitigating circumstance". No rationalization.

Nothing.

I thought we had come farther as a society than to still be judging the victims of rape, rather than the rapists.
Or maybe we did, and we've gone backwards to this point. I don't know. I just know that every future victim of rape has her or his work cut out for them. Still. Or again. Either way, it makes me so sad and angry for them.... I just don't have the words. :grr: :cry:

[JesterCS]

41. I Apologize

for you're past. I didnt mean to demean anyone who was violently raped. I was on the drunken college party side of the issue. It's ALWAYS the fault of the rapist.. Im not trying to say a rapist should be charged different depending on the situation. I'm mearly stating that common sense shows that protecting yourself decreases the risk.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Thank you for sharing!!

What a powerful story! It made me so sad and angry! I don't doubt that anyone, and if they did they are a real sick fucker, would blame you for what happened.

I think the OP indicates that there are many who do "excuse," or at least "apologize" for rape, both victims and survivors.

You shared...so will I.

I went to see the guy I was dating (I am gay). He was a professional stripper...travelled all over the country. We talked all the time on the phone, and I saw him when he was in town and within a 5 hour driving distance. He got booked last minute in the city where I was living at the time, so he called me from the hotel. I went over. I was glad to see him. We kissed, laid in the bed (he was at a hotel), then he started stripping me. I said I wasn't wanting sex. He said, "but, it has been two weeks." I told him maybe later. He kept going. We were both sober. I told him to stop...I said "Stop, Ben! NO! I am serious! Stop!" He didn't. After-wards, he looked at me and laughingly said, "Hey, it was like I raped you. That was kinda hot!"

My thoughts...it was my fucking fault! I shouldn't have gone to the hotel! I shouldn't have worn his favorite cologne! I shouldn't have laid in the bed with him and kissed him. If I wasn't gay, this wouldn't have happened. It was me...not him!

The saddest part...I was a rape crisis counselor, with awards and commendations, and for three months, I thought I "deserved" it!

You and I are both survivors and know that there is NEVER an acceptable reason to rape! You can dance the "dance of the coochies" and me, the "dance of the cock" in someone's face..and it NOT a GO for rape! NO is ALWAYS a flat, uncompromising, blatant, fucking NO!!!!

Thank you for sharing with us all! You, a victim of stranger rape, and me, one of acquaintance rape! The commonality....RAPE!

:hug:

[Moosepoop]

68. Thank you for your story, too!!!

It goes to show that even rape crisis counselors suffer from the same self-imposed guilt feelings as any other rape victim, even though they know better and even without the added weight of other people attributing the blame to them. "It's my fault, somehow..." is the first thing we think, and that mentality just has to go.

It won't go anywhere until society in general places the blame for rape squarely where it belongs: on the rapists.

One thing I need to mention is that it was also acquaintance rape in my case, not stranger rape. I knew the guy as he was the brother-in-law of one of my best friends at the time. (I've probably just given away my identity on this board to anyone who lives around here, as this was a very well-known case at the time, in this rather small community. Oh well.) He had tried to get me to go out with him on numerous occasions, I wasn't interested in dating him (he was eight years older than I was) and never took him up on it, but I still considered him a "friend".

He left the area for a number of months, and then one day I saw him walking by the side of the road outside of town, with a backpack on, hitchhiking. He recognized the car, and waved. I pulled over, let him in, and agreed to drop him off farther up the road, where I would be taking a turn on a different road and he would be going on straight ahead. He pulled a knife at that crossroad, and the rest was a nightmare.

It took me a long time to get over it, and like you I blamed myself at first. I'd been told a million times not to pick up hitchhikers (even though this was a friend, not a stranger). I thought that maybe I had caused it by not agreeing to go out with him (as if this wouldn't have happened on the date!). I thought maybe I had somehow "led him on" previously, inadvertently given him the idea that I was "willing" (as though saying 'No, I just want to be friends' was somehow misleading). I felt the devastating SHAME that goes with rape, and shame is almost always the result of having done something wrong -- therefore, the shame I felt must have been due to something I did. That's the initial logic of a rape victim, for those of you who have never had the misfortune.

There was no rape counseling in this area back then, I was on my own. Well, no I wasn't... I was extremely fortunate to have a wonderful family and group of friends who served as "counselors" for me, and they were terrific!!! Without them, I would have been mangled mentally and emotionally forever. They didn't judge me, they didn't admonish me (except for my Grandma who told me that if I even saw HER hitchhiking from then on, not to pick her up or she'd kick my ass), they all went to great lengths to point out what I pointed out in my earlier post -- that what I did or did not do wasn't an issue, that this was RAPE and that it's about power and intimidation, and that if I were to walk down the highway stark naked it does NOT give anyone permission to touch me. At all. Period.

It was not my fault.

That's the first thing that has to be addressed with a rape victim, and unfortunately it's usually the first thing that has to be addressed with everyone else who hears about a rape. And that is sad.

[salin]

358. Ugh per his comment

almost like rape... ugh. And worse... and frankly indicative of a mentality which, imo, is rampant and which perpetuates some social winking per "rape" is ... "and it was kinda hot."

Do folks get it - it is a sexual turn on for some - this forced entitlement sex/rape. I want it, you don't? Too bad I'm gonna take it... and "how exciting" for me. GRRRRRRRRR.

So very sorry that you had to live through this. Perhaps due to your experience as a counselor - you started to put a name and BLAME to what had happened sooner than some of us do. I called it sexual assault for the longest time- did the self-blame and fear of telling anyone less they heap more blame on me. We didn't have a term for "acquaintence rape" back them - so I termed it an assualt. YEARS later finally revisited, unpacked, and realized how many coping mechanisms I had created to try to deal with the rape (none very healthy) in absence of any therapy/help.

Rape is rape, as you say. It is terribly damaging. But somehow some folks seem to take it very lightly... a boys will be boys attitude. Scary, that.

[Dorian Gray]

121. Moose...

I'm so sorry for the pain you suffered in your life. You are a strong person to have survived the pain, and you are even stronger to share your experience with us. Thank you!

[ErisFiveFingers]

43. Good questions!

"What if both parties were drunk? Would it be grounds for rape charges?"

If both parties complained, yes, it could even be grounds for charging *mutual* rape.

"I am not "nailing" you. This is a very serious question."

Agreed!

"It seems, because most victims are women...."

That depends on whose numbers you are using. The vast majority of men-being-raped incidents are vastly under-reported, by most accounts. It's a fairly complex social issue. The highest numbers I've seen indicate that around 48% of men in the US have been raped, if the definition is "coerced into having sex against their will". It's a quiet epidemic that doesn't get talked about much, just as women being coerced isn't talked about much. The focus is on violent/forcible rape, mostly. Coercion rape is hidden, though endemic.

"...that if the woman is drunk and the man is drunk, the man is a rapist."

It is usually assumed, in western society, that a male "should be" more responsible in such situations, and that's how it usually plays in the courts. I'm not defending this, just noting it.

"Why not the other way around?"

Patriarchy, body mass, maturity, positions of power, etc... Yes, assuming that men, and women, in society, were total equals in all things, it would be a bizarre double standard. Let me know when men and women are considered equal in all things, and we can throw a party! :)

"What about for gay men or women?"

Well, that's when the details of other factors (beyond sex or gender) come into play. If a 6'5" 250lbs police commisioner (of either sex) gets drunk with a 5'4" 110 lbs street orphan, (of either sex), and they have sex, and the street orphan complains of rape, prosecutors would likely press charges against the comissioner. If the police commisioner tried to press charges, they would probably be less likely to prosecute.

"What if the woman is sober and the man is drunk; has he been raped?"

Quite possibly. If he feels he has been sexually violated, and that he would not have engaged in the same sexual acts were he sober, he may conclude he has been raped. However, in modern US society, men are discouraged from reporting such acts of sexual violation. Just like there's a reprehensible attitude towards "easy women", there is a reprehensible attitude towards "easy men".

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Whew!

I was so afraid you would think I was "attacking" you! I just thought that your post posed some very interesting questions. Look at the number of responses where most are about attacks on women, which are more numerous, but the wording makes it seem like it is the only kind of rape to happen.

You bring up the ever important factor of "societal norms." 'Men are more powerful and carry more of the burden.' it is sexist in nature because it implies that women, by nature, are too weak to resist. Me personally, nothing makes me cheer and scream at the TV/theater screen when a woman beats the snot out of a would-be-rapist!

You also smack the societal "taboos" in the face. If a "straight" man gets violated, he is likely not going to report....threat to his manhood. If a gay man is raped, he won't report because...well..he's a "faggot" and "deserved it!"

I think there are some great people out there, but I know there are some who are not. Sometimes, I am really sad by what I see, and other times, I am reminded how many good souls are really out and about, you just got to meet them! :)

I am glad you didn't think I threw a "golden apple" your way! (Do you get my little joke?)

[ErisFiveFingers]

58. Assume good faith (it's an old school thing)...

"I was so afraid you would think I was "attacking" you!"

Nah. I've been on the 'net since 94. :-)

"Look at the number of responses where most are about attacks on women, which are more numerous, but the wording makes it seem like it is the only kind of rape to happen."

Sexual attack rates, in the US, are bizarre. I'd guess at *least* two-thirds of the population has been through an attack of one kind or another.

"nothing makes me cheer and scream at the TV/theater screen when a woman beats the snot out of a would-be-rapist"

Indeed!

"I am glad you didn't think I threw a "golden apple" your way!"

Well.... I kind of enjoy the fallout of the apples, myself. ;-)

[lukasahero]

72. "In my book, a partner has to say *yes*. " - BRAVO!!!!!!!

Thank you so much for saying (and thinking) this.

[tkmorris]

21. Another case of people talking past each other.

The people disagreeing with each other here are not understanding what the other side is saying. They aren't using the word "blame" on the same way.

Look, there are neighborhoods not too far from here where if I go into them late some Saturday night, flashing cash, and fall asleep drunk leaning on a building, I will wake up with no wallet. If I do such a thing I have been an idiot. That does NOT, I repeat NOT, mean that whoever stole my wallet is less guilty. It just means that I failed to act like I have any sense at all. I should have been duly diligent, and I was not. This is similar to the "blame" some people assign to rape victims.

There are victims of rape who in some sense need to examine their actions and decision making as well. That doesn't mean they somehow deserve to be raped, it merely means that acknowledging that there are unscrupulous people out there and guarding against them is just good sense. If they fail to do that, they are still every bit the victim of a crime, and the perpetrator of said crime gets no lenience whatsoever because of the victims incautious ways. That is NOT what most people are saying when they discuss "blame". They are simply saying that the victim should have protected themselves better. Just like my drunk ass in an alley, they in a sense painted a target on their back.

I grant you that their are some Neanderthals out there who when speaking of some rape case or another will snicker and say something like "look at what the little hussy was wearing. What did she expect?", while they advocate letting little Johnny the football hero get probation and walk, but that 20% who speak of blame out there are not that guy. They simply believe that people ought to remember that crime happens, and take precautions against being victimized.

[JesterCS]

23. tkmorris gets the point across

Thats what i meant, tkmorris just said it a bit more eloqauntly

[jmm]

56. If that was the case they why did

one in five say a woman is to blame if she has had many sexual partners? I fail to see how a woman's past sexual history has anything to do with with her protecting herself against being violated when she is raped.

[salin]

141. Sadly were women to avoid all aspects of risk

we could never go to work or leave work late (in the dark) for at some point in time - for a couple of seconds or minutes we will be unable to see potential lurkers.

We could never go on a first date, or a second or third date without a complete background check - unless, even at thirty or forty something, we had a chaperone.

We couldn't go to public places without a concealed weapon, mace or pepper spray - as we might not be able to defend ourselves...

I ask you to consider this - if 1 in 3 women in the US are raped before the age of 30... is it really just the same 2 or 3 guys committing the rape? Why are we just suggesting that women could take better care to be safe - and not asking what is it about our society that somehow leads so many men to believe that sex is about "taking" (e.g., I want it - I am going to get it... be it a straight power move (as some assert that rape is always about power - I don't agree - sometimes it is about wanting sex then when denied - using power and a belief in entitlement to "take" in which power is definitely introducted.)? What attitudes spawn this? Why isn't that the focus of these discussions? Why is it always about what the victims do rather than avoiding discussions of how pervasive the act of committing rape seems to be?

[lukasahero]

223. Best post of the thread

You're right - why aren't we talking about what is happening to the people who commit rape that make them do it? Do we not WANT to stop it?

Your first few questions probably don't sound like that big a problem for the people who suggest women should "keep" themselves safe. Lock us in the home wearing burkas and don't let us drink or drive or talk to men sounds ok to some cultures. Never thought it would be recommended here though.

[salin]

242. perhaps they would like us to bring back chastity belts?

I honestly think that those suggesting "keep safe" as a means to preventing rape, have never given real thought to what it would mean to have that dictate your life - what it would mean to have it drive your every minute outside of the house due to potential risks, and even inside of your house (ala keep the curtains closed - don't know if there might be a peeping tom - he might get turned on by seeing you in a middrift tshirt and jeans in your house.... and peeping is often a precursor to rape - so to be safe... keep your curtains closed and becareful what you wear in the house... :eyes:

[raccoon]

236. Great post.

"some assert that rape is always about power - I don't agree - sometimes it is about wanting sex then when denied - using power and a belief in entitlement to "take" "

I think you're right.

"What attitudes spawn this?"

SOME men are so insensitive that a woman can be fighting them, shouting, "No, no, no," and they STILL don't stop trying to force her to have sex.

SOME men view a battle over sex--especially within the context of a dating situation--as a contest. If they have sex, he wins and she loses. If they don't have sex, she wins and he loses.

"Why is it always about what the victims do rather than avoiding discussions of how pervasive the act of committing rape seems to be?"

I don't know, but it does seem the discussion always devolves into the "we-were-both-drunk" situation, or she was dressed provocatively, hanging out in bars, etc., scenario.

[VelmaD]

They know that if they muddy the waters enough...

with the "we were both drunk" scenario...they can cause a low enough signal to noise ratio that any serious discussion will be drowned out.

It's the same tactic they use anytime we discuss sexism...bring up example of sexism against men and talk about them endlessly to avoid having to talk about pervasive sexism against women.

Or the "bitch" flamewars...someone always tries to make the discussion about the word "prick" so they don't have to acknowledge the damage done by sexist language against women.

[salin]

246. I would love a discussion that focused on what attitudes spawn the action

but I doubt it could ever be held here - with any integrity - before the (haven't seen them yet, but they tend to appear on these threads) "false rape accusations is a bigger risk/problem for men than rape is for women" folks start asserting that most rape claims are fraudulent - and thus muddy the discussion by pretending that rape rarely occurs.

[redqueen]

250. "Why is it always about what the victims do...

rather than avoiding discussions of how pervasive the act of committing rape seems to be?"

Excellent question.

My guess is that we're in a patriarchal society that wants to view this as a "boys will be boys" issue.

[salin]

262. certainly a lot of evidence to that point on this thread

imagine what the discussion would look like at a less progressive place. (some sarcasm in tone... intended.)

[mondo joe]

251. But this is true of risk for all crimes and other bad outcomes.

If we don't want to risk being mugged or hit by a drunk driver or assaulted by a crazy person and on and on... we'd never leave our home.

But the fact is we all take risks every day. Some are so ordinary as to be automatic. Others are not.

But we do make choices about risk every day.

In answer to your question "Why is it always about what the victims do rather than avoiding discussions of how pervasive the act of committing rape seems to be?" I have this to say:

It's the same as every other crime - rape is already condemned. What more can I say about it other than that? It is already unacceptable and rapists are already violating law and decency.

In the face of that we can only do our best to protect ourselves from bad people.

[salin]

267. read this thread and tell me it is condemned, there is evidence here

that it is somewhat condoned - and put upon the victim of not taking care. It is that type of response to rape that makes it a different type of crime in the public psyche - that is why I raise these conditions as they are absurd - but it is repeated again and again on this thread.

That said - I accept and appreciate the sincerity of your condemnation for those who commit rape both on legal and decency grounds.

[mondo joe]

279. I have not seen a single post in this thread CONDONING rape.

I truly haven't.

But in the face of the fact that people DO commit crimes and DO commit acts that are condemned, what will we do to protect ourselves? THAT is the point of these discussions.

[salin]

286. adolescent boys with hormones will be boys... its nature

that is one theme.

blame the provocative messed up fifteen year old girl who goes to a frat party and gets drunk... but don't blame the frat boys at all... indeed resist that question...

It is there. Perhaps being a survivor of rape, living through the aftermath including hearing all of the decades of "prevent rape" via focus on what the victim SHOULD have done (ala NO message to actually prevent rape by directing messages at males in the society), makes me pick up on the simplistic condoning ala making excuses for the rapist while simultaneously ascribing blame to the victiem. I consider that dual approach to be condoning.

[mondo joe]

311. I never saw that either. Some boys will do vile things - they will

rape, they will steal, they will assault. That these things happen is not excused.

In fact in those threads I saw posters say the frat boys would and should be prosecuted. They are NOT excused.

But like every other danger in our world, we can take precautions to help minimize - but not eliminate - the risks to ourselves. It won't prevent bad things from happening, but thatdoesn't mean these things shouldn't be done.

[Clintmax]

30. And they are wrong.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY deserves to be raped no matter how drunk or incompacitated they are. End of story.

[tkmorris]

34. Again, that isn't what they are saying

If you rephrase the poll question to ask if women in such situations "deserve" to be raped the yes responses will drop close to zero. You are completely missing what the respondents are trying to say.

[Clintmax]

36. Oh, ok...

I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

[Boomer]

38. Nobody deserves to be murdered either

Nobody deserves to be poor and hungry.

Nobody deserves to be hit by a tornado, hurricane, or tsunami.

But "deserve" has nothing to do with the reality of life.

If you live under a volcano, someday you may be killed. It's a small risk, so a lot of people do it anyway.

If you live in flood plain, chances are you are going to lose your house someday. You don't "deserve" to have your house destroyed, but if you live in a risk-prone area it will happen anyway.

If you drink and drive, you don't "deserve" to kill yourself or others, but we all know the chances are very good that can happen.

If you smoke in bed, you don't "deserve" to burn to death, but it happens all the time.

And if you're a young woman who gets drunk without trusted friends to watch out for you, chances are high you will be raped.

There are many situations we cannot control, but personal behavior is one risk that can be lowered. And any woman who ignores that reality should be prepared to deal with the consequences. Indignation won't do you a damn bit of good after the fact.

[Skittles]

42. that's a pretty sad commentary on men

appalling, actually

[Boomer]

54. Even dolphins have gang bangs

Predatory male behavior is not confined to the human species. Some of our closest primate relatives engage is some appallingly violent gender-based behavior, such as a new alpha leader killing all the infants born of his predecessor.

By dismantling the tradition of chaperones and encouraging sexual permissiveness, we have also dismantled the societal constructs used to protect women from male sexual predatory behavior. Unfortunately, the loosening on the one side was not balanced out by an equivalent force to repress the predatory behavior itself.

The result is that contemporary American women do lead more expressive lives, with a much greater degree of personal freedom than ever imagined by their grandmothers, but they do so at a much increased risk of rape and other dangers.

Women and children have always been at risk from male violence, the only difference nowdays is that it's considered impolite to point that out.

[BuelahWitch]

57. Aren't we supposed to be higher up on the food chain

than dolphins? I know they're very smart mammals, but I thought the idea was that humans are more advanced because we are supposed to be able to *think rationally* and not just live on instinct.

[redqueen]

260. "Boys will be boys"

:puke:

:nuke:

[geek tragedy]

78. You mean "gang rapes" right? "Gang bangs" is a pornographic

term, not a legal term for the act of rape.

Not even gonna get into the significance of using a porn term to describe rape . . .

[Skittles]

232. I was just going to say

says a lot about the poster

[raccoon]

239. You made some good points there.

"Unfortunately, the loosening on the one side was not balanced out by an equivalent force to repress the predatory behavior itself."

"Women and children have always been at risk from male violence, the only difference nowdays is that it's considered impolite to point that out."

[salin]

144. Why the assumption that women who are raped put themselves at risk?

Comparison to smoking in bed - suggests that victims took some kind of risk that was "obvious" in terms of putting themselves at risk.

Odd, that.

[noiretextatique]

360. it's the drunken, provacatively dressed stereotype

that symbolizes a rape victim in this thread. it seems to be the only way some can discuss this subject.

[salin]

367. in Elvis's words... "I'm not Angry... anymore"

though like Elvis... I rather suspect my tone belies the lyrics.

[flvegan]

47. What utter horseshit.

First off, I have to wonder which inept portion of society (or which slew of drunken fratboys) wandered into that survey. Secondly, I also have to wonder if they posed the question properly, and properly defined rape, which in this forum seems to be thus:

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

Now, if a man forces a woman to submit to any form of sex act, then I fail to see how that woman can in any way be responsible.

I also fail to see how the knuckledraggers can suggest that if a woman is wearing something revealing, she's partially responsible because she's not being "as safe as she could be" which barely dances around the ole "she was askin' for it" excuse.

I also love how anyone could drag a woman's sexual history into a survey like this. So, because a woman has had many (how many is many, anyway?) partners, 33% of folks think she's "to some degree" responsible for being raped.

Truly, the biggest pile of shit I've ever seen.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Judging by some of the answers here at DU....

The posters would think ill of a woman with ANY sexual history. Because they, themselves, have NONE.

Just look at those loose-acting floozies out there!

[alarimer]

63. absolutely

even apparently otherwise enlightened people seem to blame the victim. It's like saying the victims of Hurrican Katrina are to blame for not evacuating in time. Same despicable thing.

[Azathoth]

67. That's disingenuous

The vast majority of victims of Hurricane Katrina would have evacuated had they had the means to do so. They didn't have a choice. A person who goes walking alone through a bad part of town at 3 in morning without a compelling reason IS making a choice.

[LisaL]

51. Those must be the same people that think Junior is doing a good

job. What can I say?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

52. same old same old

I know two guys who got off a rape charge because the underage girl they raped was dressed like a hippie, and "everyone knows hippie chicks are loose".

[NashVegas]

60. And This Is Why It's So Hard For Victims

To come forward and/or "get over it."

[Judi Lynn]

61. What is anyone to make of the reports of sexual assaults on nuns?

Maybe they were unconsciously being seductive. What's a simple man to do? He's simply not responsible.

[thebigidea]

66. its the same idiot third that's protorture and needs a lobotomy

apparently you can ask any sick question in a survey and get 1/3rd to endorse it. Bunch of idiots.

[jmm]

70. Most people who were raped know their rapist.

Women who were victimized while walking alone late at night or after a night of drinking, dressing "provocatively," flirting, and hanging out with strange people are actually few and far between. Most people know and trust their rapist. I'm all for women and men because cautious against all crime but rape has been happening in all cultures at all times. We will not reduce rapes but telling women how to dress, drink, etc. There will be no change until people quit being apologists for rapists, get a better understanding of rape, and it is treated like a serious crime.

[bicentennial_baby]

71. Yes! and Hi!

"We will not reduce rapes but telling women how to dress, drink, etc. There will be no change until people quit being apologists for rapists, get a better understanding of rape, and it is treated like a serious crime." :applause:

:hi:

[redqueen]

268. Best post in the thread!

We will not reduce rapes but telling women how to dress, drink, etc. There will be no change until people quit being apologists for rapists, get a better understanding of rape, and it is treated like a serious crime.

:applause:

[geek tragedy]

76. Poorly phrased question, to be honest.

If I walk alone in a dangerous neighborhood at night counting out large bills, I would be responsible for putting myself in a dangerous situation.

Now, does that make any perpetrator of the crime less responsible or blameworthy? Of course not. Should I be able to walk down that neighborhood without fear for my safety? Of course I should. Would I deserve it or have it coming if I were mugged? Good god, no!

But the fact is that there are muggers and thugs out there.

Just like there are rapists not only walking the street, but in our workplace and in our classrooms.

Every human being has a certain responsibility to keep themselves out of harm's way.

In this sense, responsibility may mean "unwise" as opposed to "morally at fault."

As I said, the question is poorly worded and ambiguous.

The bigger problem is where people ASSUME that the rape victim MUST have done something wrong.

The part about blaming the victim for sexual promiscuity is pure misogyny, however. No other explanation for that.

And that kind of attitude is also the kind of attitude that supports and fuels our rape culture.

We need to educate people and wipe this awful crime out on a societal level. But, as individuals, we still need to exercise caution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. Until it happens to them.

[laureloak]

81. No woman should be considered fair game for rapists

irregardless of how she is dressed or her conduct.

Look at the cheap and provocative way 15-year old girls are dressing today. Should it be OK to rape them because they are dressed in the fashion-fad of the day? I think not.

[Azathoth]

84. Now there's an interesting scenario

Suppose a 15 year old girl who dressed particularly provacatively and made a habit of partying late at night at the local frat house got raped one night. Would you not feel that the parents were at least a little at fault for allowing her to act that way?

[laureloak]

86. The rapist is TOTALLY responsible. Period. n/t

[Azathoth]

87. Really? I don't think too many people would agree with you

Sure, the rapist is responsible for his actions and deserves the sentence the judge gives him. No one disputes that. But are you really prepared to say that the parents are thorougly blameless? That they acted in good faith and have utterly no responsibility for what happened to their daughter?

[laureloak]

89. Who is responsible for the crime - the rapist.

Not the girl or the parents.

I personally would never put my 15-year old in such a vulnerable position but no matter how bad the parents were, they did not commit the crime - the rapist did.

A 15-yr old girl at a frat party would be following the trashy trends of the day, but no matter how much "come on" signal she gives, if she says "no" - then it's rape. And again, the girl would not have committed the crime - the rapist did.

The real rub is taking responsibility AWAY from the rapist. I will never give in to that.

[mondo joe]

90. But who is responsible for managing their own risk?

No one deserves to be raped, mugged or murdered. And when those things happen the only person who is responsible for DOING them is the person who did them.

But we are also responsible for managing our own risk.

For example: if I leave my car door open I have increased the risk that my car or my goods in the car will be stolen. If I lock the door and remove my goods, I have decreased the risk of being a victim.

The question really amounts to: would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?

[laureloak]

94. Whether or not I leave a car door open doesn't matter.

I have no legal responsiblity to protect myself from crime. And if we ever start making the victim responsible for the crime, the world will be a crazy place indeed.

The only thing in life that we can conrol is our own behavior. Think about it.

[mondo joe]

95. Your lack of legal responsibility will not comfort you much if your car

is stolen.

And NO ONE said you have a "legal responsibility" to protect yourself. But in the spirit of controling the one thing you CAN control - your own behavior - you alone have the responsibility for mannaging your own risk.

If I leave my car door open and it is stolen the thief is 100% responsible for stealing - but that doesn't do me a lot of good, does it?

I'd rather take the precautions to minimize my risk.

Why do you think that mitigates the responsibility of the criminal?

[laureloak]

99. If you agree that the thief is 100% responsible that's all that

matters.

There is 0% of blame remaining.

[mondo joe]

101. The thief is 100% LEGALLY responsible. But you are responsible for your

own happiness.

If you can be happy knowing you've been the victim of a crime for which the criminal is 100% responsible, you should be fine.

But personally, I want to be whole and healthy and unharmed. So I lock my doors when I go to sleep, I keep my car secured, and I minimize my risks in a hundred other ways.

[laureloak]

104. We agree.

Smile.

[Azathoth]

93. I think you hit the real issue

The real rub is taking responsibility AWAY from the rapist.

This is where I both agree and disagree with you. In my view, everyone is responsible for their own actions. The rapist is obviously responsible for his. But the girl and her parents are responsible for hers as well. A 15-year-old gir dressing provacatively and hanging out at a frat house without some type of chaperone is a disaster waiting to happen. In my view, the girl was acting recklessly, and the parents are partially responsible. I do not however see any reason why, as you suggest, the parents' negligence should diminish the rapist's responsibility for his actions. Put more broadly, I think a woman, under certain circumstances, bears responsibility for knowingly putting herself in danger, without taking responsibility away from the rapist/robber/mugger/whatever.

[laureloak]

382. There are bad parents out there and we can't pick the ones

we get. It's no wonder that a young girl who is starved for affection turns to men/boys to boost her self esteem. Appearing sexy & fun is just a prop for the real desire - to be loved. Despite any other bad choices that girl made, she certainly has the right to draw the line on sex at any point.

Some "bad" parents are good people that become lost in the challenge of parenting. Some are overwhelmed single parents who lack the means or support to get in control of their lives and their children's lives. I've known parents that had to let go of their children for their own sanity, even though they knew they weren't mature enough to make good decisions.

And I firmly believe that some kids are bad seeds.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we cannot always assign responsiblity for situations, but we can assign responsibility for actions that cross the line into criminal misconduct.

[bloom]

108. The rapist is the only one responsible for the rape.

You think if Frat Houses put a sign on their door saying "any female who enters can expect to be raped" ? that said frat boys would be off the hook?

No.

Sorry - but if you or your frat boy friends raped people - then YOU are the ones responsible and the ONLY ones responsible - regardless of what you would like to tell yourselves.

[Azathoth]

117. Who said the frat boys would be off the hook?

It's very interesting the way people like you read into things that aren't there.

[bloom]

128. Seems to me you have repeatedly tried to assess blame on others than the

rapist.

[Azathoth]

131. Then perhaps you should read my posts a little more carefully

before making accusations. I have never once suggested that a rapist should not be held responsible for his/her actions. I have, however, suggested that a person should act responsibly, and I do not consider walking alone through a bad part of town at 3 in morning without a compelling reason, or allowing my 15-year-old daughter to hang out late at night at the local frat house, to be responsible behavior.

[bloom]

135. You don't get it

With your reasoning - a woman would have to stay inside holding a gun 24/7 to avoid any of your so-called responsibility for being raped. Read this:



Violence part of life for girls in French suburbs


SAINT DENIS, France, Nov 10 (Reuters) - With nightly scenes of rioting beamed around the globe, the world has learned that France's bleak suburbs are enclaves of gang wars and macho rules. The girls living there have known this for years.

Even before the riots, Ophelia, 16, used to run home from school every day because she was afraid of being attacked in the maze of high-rise buildings in her suburb northeast of Paris.

A series of gang rapes in these bleak housing estates shocked France a few years ago. In 2002, a 17-year-old girl was set alight by an 18-year-old boy as his friends stood by.

Walking near a burned-out garbage bin, Ophelia's twin sister Sandra says the riots came as no surprise. Violence against and pressure on women is part of daily life in the suburbs, where boys can dictate how girls should dress.

"You have to behave like a guy and look like a guy. If you wear a skirt, you get into immediate trouble. You're a slut," says Sandra, wearing a baggy sweatshirt and jeans.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?id=2005111012160002710349&dt=20051110121600&w=RTR&coview=

[Azathoth]

153. Oh come on

First of all, that's a fairly unique example, especially in the West. Second, that article actually PROVES my point. The girl, Sandra, is NOT walking at night wearing a skirt. She's wearing jeans and a sweatshirt and is closely watching her back. She knows she's in a dangerous environment, and she is acting responsibly to ensure her own safety. She's not there by choice, but by necessity, and she's being as practical as possible in dealing with her situation. I don't envy her by any means, but I respect her and hope that things turn out OK for her. By your logic, she should be wearing a miniskirt everyday, comfortable in the knowledge that she would bear no responsibility if anything bad happened to her.

[bloom]

162. And I'm saying that if we want to live in a civil society

then the society as a whole needs to hold the perpetrators accountable and not the victims.

The situation that evolved in that area of France did so because that part of "society" was essentially mob rule. I expect our society to be better than that. I expect the men to know that when they rape a women who is drunk (or anyone, of course - but that is what seems to get excused) that it is 100% his fault AND that it is NOT acceptable.

And like I said elsewhere - I think ANYONE who suggests otherwise - is contributing to a culture of rape acceptance.

[noiretextatique]

226. do you want your daughter to live in a world like that?

simply because some men can't or won't control themselves? rather than accept that as a fact for her, wouldn't it make more sense to change the culture? there are men who are working to end the rapist mentality that is far too acceptable, even in "polite" society.

[Azathoth]

237. I don't see her world changing anytime soon

no matter what I do. The environment in which she lives is the product of numerous socio-economic factors, not the least of which being the fundamental misogyny that pervades much of the Muslim world. Of COURSE we should work toward trying to change that. But in the meantime, that girl is going to have to act very responsibly and cautiously. The idea that "it doesn't matter what the girl does, rape is always wrong! A girl should never worry about what she wears!" is nice, but it doesn't in any way address the reality the girl is facing. And let's be honest with ourselves: if that girl marched out one night wearing a miniskirt and a tube top and got raped, the first thought that would run through everyone's head would be "What the FUCK was she thinking???"

The point I was initially trying to convey is that we are all responsible for our actions. Putting oneself (or one's children) in a dangerous situation without good reason is, in my view, irresponsible. The scenario I used was of a parent allowing his 15-year-old daughter to dress highly provocatively and attend late night parties at the local frat house, which as anyone who has been to a frat house knows, is a recipe for disaster. I would consider the parent partially responsible if something happened to the girl. That doesn't in any way lessen the responsibility or guilt of the rapist, but it does acknowledge each of us bears a certain degree of personal responsibility when we choose to put ourselves in dangerous circumstances.

[noiretextatique]

248. my first thought would be: another asshole raped a woman

any female can be raped...from a housebound grandmother to a 2 year old child. by creating this "she needs to be responsible" fantasy of a provacatively dressed, attractive young woman...the facts of rape get glossed over, diminished and fetished. (as do the problems that creates those facts). and of course: men and boys are raped too...are they "responsible?" does a child who is raped bear any responsibility?
and yes...the culture is changing, and it needs to change more and faster. the fact is: no matter how "careful" and "responsible" you are: YOU CAN'T CONTROL SOMEONE'S DECISION TO RAPE.
i would never let my 15 year old go to a frat party, but the fact remains that if a rape occurred, then the rapist shouold be prosecuted. the victim will have to take responsibility for her decisions for the rest of her life.

[mondo joe]

256. You can't control someone's decision to rape. But you can control

which situations you are in that increase or decrease your vulnerability to rape and any other crime.

[noiretextatique]

282. someone breaks into your house and rapes you

you are working late...a co-worker rapes you.
you are walking into your house, someone overpowers you and rapes you.
you can diminish risk, but not eliminate it.

[mondo joe]

335. Again, WHO ever said you could ELIMINATE risk?

Did I? Did someone else?

Why keep countering something no one ever said?

[Azathoth]

271. You're missing the point

The fact that you dismiss the idea of a girl acting in a way that she knows is responsible and minimizes the risk she faces from her extremely adverse circumstances to be "a fantasy" suggests that you are blinding yourself from reality.

The victim will have to take responsibility for her decisions for the rest of her life

Exactly. By your own words, the girl has a responsibility for her own actions, including putting herself in risky circumstances.

[noiretextatique]

288. of course she has responsbility...that has nothing to do with the crime

or the penalty. you seems to be implying that is does, without really saying it directly. in a cultural sense, we know this is a reality, hence this poll, and many verdicts.
but let's talk about the grandmother or the two year old...the cases where behavior or dress is not an issue. as i said, those are the ones that don't fit your scenario, and yet those cases happen too.
how can a two year have "responsibility?" these cases (not the one you keep using) illustrate the pathology of rape and the rapist's mentality in a way that no on can deny. i would argue that the difference in the case you are talking about is a matter of degrees, not a completely different scenario. the person who may get away with rape in college may learn from that experience and go on to rape again and again.

[Azathoth]

Pathology is a completely different matter

I'm not even going to attempt to go into it, because we could fill textbooks on it. I am willing to accept it as simple fact that (a) there are truly pathological predators out there who will, as you say go after the grandma or the 2 year old, and (b) there is a risk of rape when a single girl is secluded with a group of drunk young men, particularly groups that do not attract those of the highest moral caliber (like frats ;)).

The original question was whether a woman could bear any responsibility for a rape. The typical answer from everyone was the emphatic "no" with no qualification. My contention is that while a woman does not bear any type of criminal responsibility for a rape, there are cases where a woman knows she is doing something irresponsible and is putting herself at risk, and thus, from a certain point of view, has responsibility in the matter as well. I consider this the same type of responsibility a man would have if he chose to walk through a bad section of town late at night wearing an expensive leather coat.

[noiretextatique]

343. that's your judgement

i say women are as free to be idiots, without fear of paying some horrible price for it, as men. i would add that if you choose to take risks, then you need to be prepared to deal with the consequences. i have a friend is fond of frequenting dive clubs and who dresses very provocatively...she is also a kickboxer, and can take down a man twice her size.
glad to see you admit that her responsibility would not mitigate the rapist's decision to rape, or his legal culpability for his behavior.
the pathology of rape is clearer in cases where the rapist is not acquainted with the victim, and when the victim is not stereotypically "attractive." but it is a pathology that also shows up in marriages and in dating situations.

[Azathoth]

389. Obviously, it's your judgement as well

i would add that if you choose to take risks, then you need to be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Bingo. I rest my case.

Your continued harping on the psychopathology of rapists is utterly irrelevant in regard to this point, which has been my point all along.

[mondo joe]

245. Both need to happen.

I also don't want my daughter raped at a frat party while I'm busy changing the culture and telling her no one has the right to do these things.

And telling my daughters no one has the right to rape them is in no way minimized by telling them they need to be cautious.

[noiretextatique]

253. fuck caution

teach her to fight. women need to learn how to defend themselves so they don't have to be afraid.

[mondo joe]

258. Why does fighting negate the need for caution?

My daughters are learning to fight, they are learning their body is theirs alone, and they are learning caution.

Caution isn't the same as fear.

[noiretextatique]

269. perhaps not

in your case, but the messages i got as a young woman were all about fear and had little to do with power. i had to learn how to feel powerful and fearless in the world on my own. that, more than anything else, keeps the victimizers away.

[mondo joe]

277. My daughters don't get a message of fear.

I'm a man - I'm cautious. I'm a gay man - I'm cautious of some very particular dangers. But that doesn't mean I live in fear.

My daughters have very clear messages about their own bodies and their own responsibilities. That includes not putting yourself in harm's way. But none of that is a message of fear.

But it's important they know there are bad people who, if given the chance, would do bad things to you. It's why we take the car CD player face into our house at night. It's why we do a lot of things the way we do.

[noiretextatique]

302. the bad people

are not always easily detected, which is why i bought my niece a stun gun when she went to college.

[mondo joe]

314. Of course. But I want my kids to have EVERY tool they need,

which includes caution.

And part of that caution is knowing bad people are not easily detected. It would be foolish naivete to think otherwise.

[noiretextatique]

320. i hear you

i am cautious by nature, but i have learned the value in being able to kick ass, if necessary.

[noiretextatique]

222. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

i can't belive some many ADULTS refuse to accept that simple fact. if a woman chooses to get drunk, she is not consenting to be rape: she decided to get drunk. if a predator decides to take advantage of her inability to consent or defend herself: that's his CHOICE.
it seems many people still believe men can't control themselves.

[salin]

150. Yes, the parents of the boys who instilled in them that it is okay

to have sex on a drunk 15 year old girl, I would think that they might have a degree of blame.

[Azathoth]

169. Well, that was a neat dodge of my question

The question was whether the 15-year-old girl's parents bore some responsibility in the matter, since their daughter was still a minor, living at home, and engaging in what most would consider to be reckless behavior. The frat boy is presumably an adult; it really doesn't matter what his parents taught him, because he is old enough to be responsible (and thus punished) for his own actions.

Purely as a side note, I'd point out the following:
(1) I've met 15,16 year old girls who I was utterly convinced were in their 20's
(2) Drunk, high frat boys do not ask for proof of age, regardless of what their parents taught them.
(3) A frat boy having sex with a completely sober coed at a frat party is like watching Bigfoot play tennis. People claim to have witnessed it, but their claims are highly suspect.

[noiretextatique]

235. you seem to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth

if the rapist is responsible for his actions, what responsibility should the 15 year old victim bear? and how would that affect the rapist's punishment? if you are arguing for mitigating circumstances (the devil made me do it), then you are not holding the rapist accountable for his behavior.

[Azathoth]

240. There's a term in civil law known as "comparative negligence"

Although it has no couterpart in criminal law (and rightly so), it's the closest legal example of the point I'm trying to convey.

I'll sum up my argument quite simply: If a person decides to walk alone, without a compelling reason, through a bad part of town at 3 in the morning wearing a rolex and an expensive leather jacket, and that person gets mugged, then I have little sympathy for him. I hope the mugger gets caught and prosecuted, but I also hope the victim learns from his/her irresponsible behavior.

[VelmaD]

244. So basically you are saying...

that if a woman goes out in public and drinks (a behavior that is legal and that men seem to be allowed to engage in with little or no social oprobrium) and she gets raped...you have little sympathy? Are you really saying that?

And you call yourself a progressive or liberal?

[Azathoth]

252. Oh give me a break

If that's how you interpret the metaphor, then I feel sorry for you (though I suspect that you are purposely misinterpreting it in an attempt to be argumentative).

Incidentally, from what I've seen in this thread, you seem to be on something of a kick about challenging peoples' progressive credentials. I hate to break it to ya, but you are not the arbiter of all things liberal.

[VelmaD]

263. You're the one who said you had little sympathy...

for the victim of a mugging where the person did not talk precautions. How is it a stretch on a thread specifically about rape and people's perception of women "asking for it" to infer that your lack of sympathy also extended to rape victims who may not have taken every single precaution one could take?

And I'm calling your liberal credentials into question because I always thought one of the hallmarks of being a liberal or progressive was having empathy for other people.

When did we become so callous to victims?

[noiretextatique]

261. your sympathy is not the issue

you would not argue that the robber shouldn't be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, would you? the rest is just b.s.

[salin]

259. Your dodge of putting any responsibility on the frat boys

in your first question, and later response - is a neat trick. Not falling for it. The fear of potential arrest for having sex with a minor, should at the least make frat boys a little cautious - like at least KNOWING something about the young lady in question (e.g., where does she live, who does she hang out with - is she a student at the U, etc.)

I was raped - in college by someone I knew. I wasn't drunk - hadn't had a drop. I was at my own apartment. Friend (hah~!) comes to the door - claiming to be in distress - needing a shoulder to cry on... girlfriend just broke up with him... Twenty minutes later - I was raped - tried the NO NO thing... tried the scramble away thing - but his foot taller and 100 pounds heavier sorta over powered me... had bruises on my wrists (where I was pinned down)... but - was fearful that were I to report it that folks would suggest it was MY fault for letting him into my apartment in the first place; and that a nice frat boy (I believe he was an Eagle Scout) like him could NEVER do something like THAT - it must be he said she said - there must be another side to the story... It must have been the old sweat pants and sweatshirt that I wore to answer the door... Back then we didn't have the term "Acquaintance rape" = it was only stranger rape (you know, guy in mask with knife or gun) - at least girls today have a term for the phenomenon.

However all these discussions do is consider what the girls do wrong. We don't consider the HIGH rate of rape of women between the ages of 15 and 30 - and recognize that these are not all committed by a handful of men. That some of the discussions really ought to focus on WHY a sizeable number of men and boys in our society feel that sex, under any condition, is a right - an entitlement if you will, and that if for whatever reason that right/entitlement is impeded (say - because the woman says no, resists, or is far too young to consent), that there is a right to overpower her and "TAKE" it anyhow. Why isn't that the subject of this discussion?

Frankly your focus on the girl's parents, rather than the boys (giving them a full pass because they are boys, in a frat, and drinking), sorta fits with the entitlement issue. Their right to have sex with any girl who shows up and has a drink at the frat, eh?

So back to my scenario... perhaps it was my parents fault as they let me live in an apartment, and they didn't teach me that regardless of whether I think a male is a friend or not, and regardless of whether they express that they are in distress and need a friend to talk to, that in no way, unless there is a chaperone, should I let any male into the apartment. Certainly their not teaching me that is to blame. :eyes:

When you choose to have a discussion about the responsibilities of the males - when you choose to discuss why there are too many young men prone to commit rape without even realizing it is rape - then I will come back to your question about your fictional girl's parents.

[Azathoth]

300. Your post doesn't really apply to anything I've said

First, I stand by my comments about frat boys. You may not like them, but I can assure you that they are a reality.

Second, your own rape experience -- for which you have my deep sympathies -- has very little to do with my example. You weren't by any stretch of the imagination acting in a way that you KNEW put you in danger. Thus, you weren't acting irresponsibly. The whole point of my argument is that there are some circumstances when a woman knows she is putting herself at risk, and does so anyway for one reason or another.

Your remarks about the pycho-social-cultural reasons why men commit rape diverge significantly from the rather basic point I was trying to make. I'll simply direct you to some of Boomer's posts, who I think addressed the issue far more eloquently than I could. It's not a question of WHY men commit rapes (which is a question that will probably never be sufficiently answered), but whether or not a girl puts herself in a position where she knows things could easily get out of hand.

Finally, the reason I focused on the girl's parents was because she is a minor, and because the average person would identify the parents as partially responsible for what happened. Had she been an adult, I would not have mentioned her parents.

[VelmaD]

312. You just summed up why a lot of women are so mad...

"It's not a question of WHY men commit rapes (which is a question that will probably never be sufficiently answered), but whether or not a girl puts herself in a position where she knows things could easily get out of hand."

Why isn't it a question of why men commit rape? Why it is OUR behavior that's always under the microscope? We aren't the ones committing the crime here.

[noiretextatique]

370. bingo

and on the contrary, there is a lot of information on why men rape, though it's clear many people in this thread haven't bothered to read it. what i find infuriating is that the stereotypical rape victim, in the mind of many, is the one who "asks for it" because she had a or drink or wears a skirt. that's annoying enough, but how about the other victims? how about the 2 year old child? or the 14 year old child who was abducted and mutilated? or the 79 year old woman who is raped and murdered? or the devemopmentally disabled person? or a prisoner? what "responsibility" do these people have for "things getting out of hand?"

focusing on the fantasy victim makes it a lot easier characterize rape as things simply "getting out of hand." just "protect yourself" and "be responsible"...sorry that doesn't cut it. there are men actively working to address the real issue, and thank goodness some of them have posted here.

[VelmaD]

372. It is so nice for once...

for you and I to be 100 percent on the same side of an issue. We've disagreed on any number of things in the past. It's always neat to find that common ground. :)

[noiretextatique]

374. we disagreed?

:hi: i don't recall, but i'm sure we did...that tends to happen here. but we're in 100% agreement on this issue.

[VelmaD]

380. We did...

I remember being in a huge rumble with you and DarkPhenyx and Forkboy bakc a brazillion years ago. I don't even remember what about. :shrug:

Heck, part of the fun of DU (and politics) is finding that one thing you disagree with someone about and hammering it out...and then moving on. :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

255. Of course it isn't ok to rape anyone

But on the other hand, people need to use common sense and be careful. If you're out drinking a lot, make sure that you have a friend with you who is staying sober to look out with you.

I should be able to leave my keys in my car without worrying about anyone stealing it. Unfortunately there are people in this would who make that a foolish action.

[PaulaFarrell]

83. IN the sense that a bicyclist riding down a busy road is responsible

if a car hits him. If he hadn't been there, he wouldn't have got hit. But the law would not consider the cyclist in any way responsible (assuming he was driving legally) but it seems like we are happy to consider women responsible for the crimes other people commit against them.

To me, it all comes down to how there is a strong cultural image of woman as temptress in our society. It runs through many religions to a certain extent, and I thinks it lingers on on the way we jump to blame women when men attack them sexually.

I mean, I know I would never cycle down a busy road, but I don't blame people who do it and then get hit, I admire them for their courage. If we accept all these boundaries as women - can't wear this, can't go there, can't do that - then our world just shrinks and shrinks. I also never walk out in the woods by myself, without my great big dog, and to me that is a real loss. We should be able to do those things without fear, and certainly not get blamed by others if we do them and something bad happens.

And the clothes thing - well, women tend to dress provocatively to get male attention because that is how we are conditioned by society to expect to get it. I am really ambivalent about dressing in that way, pat of me disdains women who do as a sellout, and part of me wishes I had the nerve to do it myself. In the end, people should be able to dress how they want and not have to worry about getting sexually attacked as a result. In reality, woemn should be able to walk down the street stark naked if they want without fear of raped because of it.

[truebrit71]

91. Isn't it funny how no-one seems to think the same about men....

...You know, 1/3rd of those polled believe that if you got your dick cut off whilst being drunk you were "asking for it"....

1/3 of all those polled believed that men who got fucked in the arse by a rabid, bear when drunk were "begging for it"....

I am SOOOOOOOOOOoo sick of this "she was partly to blame for it" bullshit...

I apologize for the outright fucking stupidity of my fellow countrymen...

[seabeyond]

97. there is a difference betweeen owning what i have created and

allowing a free for all with my body.

yes with drinking there is going to be more the possibility for rape. both the male more possible he feels the right to rape, and second the female, more easily raped.

it doesnt make the rape ok
that doesnt say the female is responsible for the rape

but as walking out alone in middle of night to far off parking lot may allow more a possibility to rape, again,.... doesnt mean all gals going to far out parking lots are free for rape

wouldnt it be nice if our males werent raping us and we could get drunk, or walk out to a parking lot.

but the reality is, they are raping us.

walking up into tysons bedroom at three in the morning, is foolish. and inexperienced. well hell, she was 18, she WAS inexpereinced. regardless that is a lesson for her to learn. would be nice she could do that, without a consideration of rape, but...... that obviously is not where some of our males are at

women wearing outfits absolutely do it to show off sexual prowless. duh..........guys dont get to rape though. but the female is hanging sexuality in face, saying get hard bubba, get hard. and you arent getting any. and then us women say.....hey.

well hey back. we do have responsibilities. this i know and can admit.

[noonwitch]

100. Rape is more likely to happen when the victim is drunk

Not that anyone ever deserves to be raped, or is responsible for someone raping her, but it is less likely to happen if the woman isn't drinking.

When I was in college in the 80s, a lot of my friends experienced situations which people consider rape now, but didn't then. They just figured they got drunk with an insensitive idiot and went to the health center for a morning after pill, if they weren't already using birth control. I partly blame ABC Daytime/GH/Luke and Laura for this.

[mondo joe]

102. Indeed. Being drunk increases the riisk of all sorts of bad outcomes.

And it doesn't mean we DESERVE any of those things. But it's a sensible thing to keep ourselves as much out of harm's way as we reasonably can.

[lukasahero]

107. So no more alcohol for you wimmen folk! eom

[VelmaD]

110. Yup...no lives for us...

we should stay inside the house and covered from head to toe 24-7. No drinking. No flirting. Hell, better not even talk to a male...they might think you were asking for it. :eyes:

Oh wait, I forgot...most women are raped by someone they know...so I guess staying at home isn't all that safe either.

I suppose we'll all just have to lay there and think of England.

[mondo joe]

112. It's not an issue for women only. Anyone who is drunk is more likely to

have some bad outcome, including burglary, transmission of HIV/AIDS, car crashes and more.

It's not fair and it's not just, but there are things we do that increase our risk of things we don't want to happen.

[VelmaD]

122. You still don't seem to get it...

most rape victims were not drunk. They were not wearing "provocative" clothing. They weren't doing any of the things people seem to think "cause" them to get raped.

You can't do anything to ensure you won't get raped. To imply you can protect yourself from it is ridiculous. My point was that women can lock themselves in the house and never leave and STILL they can be teh victim of a rape.

So telling women they need to restrict their behavior as a means of protecting themselves...is disingenuous and too often used as a means of keeping women in their place.

I refuse to walk through my life afraid.

[mondo joe]

148. But I do get it. I don't see why you think I don't know that

most rape victims aren't drunk, etc. I never said or suggested they were.

Nor did I suggest anyone could ensure they would not be raped.

No one can do anything to ensure they will not be victims of crime, from rape to murder to burglary. But we can all do things that increase or decrease the risk of these things happening.

The fact is that EVERYONE - men and women - can do things to minimize the risk of being a crime victim. We can lock our car doors, we can be watchful of our surroundings, we can be careful of situations we place ourselves in.

You don't need to live in fear to live wisely.

[noonwitch]

163. You can minimize your risk of being raped

Not by staying inside or by wearing a burka, but by being careful. If you are going to a bar and planning to drink a lot, bring a group of friends. Make sure everyone leaves together, and that either someone is a designated driver or you take a cab.
Get keyless entry on your car, it is a good security feature. Always be aware of who is around you, and if you are alone, be doubly aware. Greet people-letting them know you see them is more than just common courtesy, it also shows confidence.

Being careful is not living in fear, it's understanding the world we live in.

[noiretextatique]

229. even the most "careful" people can be attacked

by rapists. they can break into your carefully guarded house, or stalk and follow you waiting for a moment that you let your guard down. the answer is for the culture of rape to stop being so acceptable. until that happens, i firmly believe in self-protection. i bought my niece a stun gun when she went ot college.

[mondo joe]

247. That's why caution MINIMIZES the risk - no one said it eliminates

it.

[noiretextatique]

309. i think that's a nice fantasy

but if a predator is intent on engaging you, all the caution in the world may not prevent that from happening. that's why i opt for self-defense and preparation vs. caution, per se. that's why i can walk anywhere, anytime and not feel afraid.

[mondo joe]

319. What's fantasy? That we can make choices that minimize risk?

Who ever said caution could eliminate risk or would guarantee safety 100%? Did ANYONE say that?

[noiretextatique]

324. yes, in a way...

i think you can make choices that minimize risks, but i don't think you can always avoid confrontation entirely. rape is a reality for women in this country, and it's unrealistic to think the situation might not arise if you are female...simply a fact of life in this culture, per the statistics.
since you are teaching you girls to fight too, they will have a better chance of handling the situation, if it arises. i still see a lot of parents raising their girls to be helpless and defenseless.

[mondo joe]

331. I'm sorry, but I'm not helpless to impact my life and neither

are my daughters.

I never said - ever - that one could eliminate risk or avoid confrontation.

I don't know why people respond to the idea that you can MINIMIZE risk as if it means ELIMINATE risk.

[noiretextatique]

334. we don't disagree...really

i was just thinking back on how i was raised...to be fearful, vs. to be in control, and was likely projecting. my apologies.

[mondo joe]

338. No problem. I think it's common, especiaslly on hot button issues,

for people to see things in posts that aren't actually stated.

[Moosepoop]

114. "I suppose we'll all just have to lay there and think of England." ROFL!!!

:rofl:

I love it, VelmaD!! That's precisely what a good chunk of people apparently think. Thanks for the chuckle, I needed it after this thread! Really, thank you!

Speaking of England... the study quoted in the OP was, in fact, a British study. The respondents were British. It shows the woefully outdated views on rape in the UK. I was really hoping to see a much more enlightened attitude here in the U.S., and especially here at DU. I really did think that we were beyond some of the attitudes that I've seen here. Unfortunately, we are not. Back to the drawing board. :shrug:

[salin]

158. I was raped in the 80s, in college

and was stone sober. Nothing like the scenario you suggest. Nonetheless, fear of having the blame put upon me (as in X would never do THAT) prevented me from seeking any help, let alone any legal remedy (like reporting the rape.)

So while statements like this may feel good to say (don't be drunk - you will be less likely to be raped) - they will not prevent rape. In the nineties I read a pamphlet geared to "prevent rape" provided by a Michigan state representative. Everything in the pamphlet was geared to the girl (don't go anywhere without enough money for a payphone...) and NOTHING was geared towards young men. Ergo it said to inherently to rape victims... it must be your fault, somewhere in the chain of events YOU must not have been careful.

But nowhere did it speak to those who commit rape. At the time (and it hasn't changed) 1 in 3 women before the age of 30 was likely to be a rape victim. Hard to believe it was only a couple of dudes committing ALL THOSE RAPES - but all rape prevention literature was geared to girls and parents of girls. Why not parents of young men? How to NOT raise boys with a sense of entitlement to sex?

Why is the issue of what goes on in our culture that allows so many men/boys to feel unconstrained in forcing sex/rape? And why the hell don't we talk about it.

It saddens me that the conversation has not advanced much in 20 years.

[noiretextatique]

316. it is a very sad commentary

on our retarded, backward culture that continues to exempt rapists from responsibility for their actions. "be careful" :scared: fuck that! i say: be prepared. i think you understand what i mean.

[Akoto]

113. Rape is rape, drunk or not. Having said that ...

It has been my experience that nothing good comes of being drunk, which is why I (coming up on my 21st birthday) have never drank alcohol and never will. It's not safe for your body, and it impairs your judgment in ways that others might take advantage of.

[0007]

115. Pure ignorance! Never an excuse for rape.

[bloom]

119. RE: One-third believe victims of rape are to blame if they were drunk

It is because of this attitude - that the women are to blame if they drink - that we have the rape culture that we do.

If everyone agreed that rape was wrong - regardless of what the woman wore or what she drank or whether someone managed to drug her or whether she was out late - there would be a lot less rapes. Anyone agreeing with this - is promoting the rape culture and adding to it's acceptance.

Assuming that we could identify campuses on which both males and females reported a low incidence of rape and/or unwanted sex, the next question would be whether there is a significant difference in the sexual culture on these campuses compared to the more rape prone campuses. My cross-cultural research which demonstrated differences in the character of heterosexual interaction in rape free as opposed to rape prone societies would suggest that the answer to this question is yes. The outstanding feature of rape-free societies is the ceremonial importance of women and the respect accorded the contribution women make to social continuity, a respect which places men and women in relatively balanced power spheres. Rape-free societies are characterized by sexual equality and the notion that the sexes are complementary. Although the sexes may not perform the same duties or have the same rights or privileges, each is indispensable to the activities of the other....


At QRS heavy drinking is not a requisite for membership and is not a part of initiation. There are no drinking games and binge drinking does not occur. While some brothers drink to get drunk more than once a week, most don't. At parties there are always brothers who watch out for women or house members who have had too much to drink. Josh stressed that "it is clearly not acceptable for someone to take advantage of a drunk woman, because that's rape." There is no talk in the house about getting a girl drunk to have sex, he says. Members are very aware that where there is heavy drinking someone can be taken advantage of. If a female passes out or is very drunk she is watched or escorted home. Both Josh and Noel remember an incident during a party in the fraternity next door, in which several members of QRS came to the aide of a young woman whose shirt was above her waist and who had passed out on their porch, left there perhaps by friends from the party who had deserted her. Their intervention may have saved her life. When they were unable to get her to talk, they took her to the emergency room of a nearby hospital only to learn that she was in a coma and her heart had stopped. Fortunately, they were in time and she responded to treatment.

Women are not seen as sex objects in the house, but as friends. Unlike other fraternities at U., there is no distinction drawn between "girlfriends" and friends and there are no "party girls." Noel says that when he was rushing he would often hear women referred to as "sluts" in other fraternities. However, at QRS this is unheard of. According to Josh, a brother who acted "inappropriately" with a woman would be severely reprimanded, perhaps even expelled from the fraternity. The brothers are not afraid of strong women....
One QRS brother started the Men's Association for Change and Openness (MAChO) and is an active participant in U's student peer-counseling group for sexual health. One brother displays a "Refuse and Resist" sticker on his door, proclaiming, "Date rape: cut it out or cut it off." In a l993 pamphlet advertising QRS as the site of the National Anarchist gathering, the brothers wrote "Although QRS is a frat, it is generally a friendly place, along with being a safe haven for women."

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html

[bonzotex]

124. 1/3rd of Americans think Bush is doing a great job

Our Nation needs a lot of remedial education.

Rape Culture = Republican Culture

[bloom]

127. Just like of those Bush* supporters who justify torture...

I think anyone who thinks that anyone other than the rapist is to blame should have to get some remedial progressive education before they can post.

[Up2Late]

200. Exactly, this 1/3rd is, most likly, the same 1/3 who think * is Great, and

doing a great job.

Just proves that a 2/3rds majority is about the best we can ever expect to agree with us.

[MissB]

161. No means no.

Rape isn't about sex - it is about violence.

[rniel]

173. Polls like this scare me

And the one saying 70% of americans think we should torture muslims in iraq.

Our society here is in the middle of a decay of basic values. I don't mean conservative evengelical church values, but the ability of people to have a bit of empathy for others that I thought everyone automatically had regardless of religion or lack thereof.

[Fleshdancer]

212. blaming the victim...a self defense mechanism

Classic sociology 101. By blaming the victim people are able to believe they would never be violated in such a way because they supposedly don't do the things that would get them harmed. It gives people a false sense of control.

The people who blame are the people who have never experienced the horrifying role of being the victim. I mean really, when have you ever heard a woman say "yeah I was raped but I can't blame him...I was looking very hot that night and that tequila shot went straight to my head". Sounds down right absurd when you try to put the "blame the victim" thoughts into the minds of the actual victims, doesn't it?

Personally I think blaming rape victims is disgusting. I don't care how drunk or "slutty" I look, you don't have the right to stick your dick in me. It really is that simple. Are you unsure if I want to have sex with you? Then ask. Are you wondering if I'm too drunk? Then I probably am. Can't control yourself? Then you better hope the police find you before my family does.

[kalibex]

224. Why is rape treated as something that just 'happens' to women?

As if they just passively 'happen' to get raped? As if it's some 'act of nature'?

Men make an active decision to rape women.

Irregardless of a woman's state of mind (whether drunk, sober, or whatever)...it's a man who's made the choice to rape them.

So, when someone says that a drunk woman was 'responsible' somewhat for having gotten raped...they're saying that our culture (despite giving lip service to rape being a crime) deems it acceptable for a man to rape a drunk woman - and that they agree with that idea.

[noiretextatique]

231. rapists are let off the hook

because they can't control themselves. that seems to be the myth underlying these beliefs.

[mondo joe]

243. Because like any other crime, criminals choose to act but we

can take steps to decrease (or increase) our risk.

No woman is responsible for being raped, any more than anyone is responsible for having their car stolen, getting mugged or any other crime. But everyone can do things that reduce the risk of these things happening.

No one ever said you're responsible for having your car stolen, your house burgled or yourself mugged. But most people try to take precautions against these things happening.

[Sparkly]

315. It doesn't mean the victim is "to blame," in any part or to any extent.

The blame lies fully with the rapist.

[mondo joe]

348. Yes, the blame is with the perpetrator.

But the side issue is that there ARE things we do that increase or decrease the risk of being victims of crimes that the perpetrators are fully responsible for committing.

My partner left the CD player in our car in a very isolated area for the day, even though it's quite easy to remove the face plate. When he came back the windows was smashed in, and the CD player was ripped out.

Who was responsible for the theft? The person who stole the cd player.

Could my partner have prevented it by taking the simple precaution of removing the face plate? Yes.

[Sparkly]

352. The poll in the OP says "blame" and "responsible."

A victim shares no blame, and is not responsible for being attacked. Period.

[salin]

365. Here is the problem with this logic per rape.

intended or not, it suggests, that IF one is careful and one still gets caught, it must be because one wasn't careful, enough. I don't think that is what you are intending to say, at least I hope it isn't.

For my entire adult life the issue of rape has been discussed in terms of what the woman should do differently to try to prevent rape. There has never been as much conversation about what men should do to realize what rape is and isn't and to learn not to cross the line. There are a LOT of rapists walking around who are not 'joe jailbird.' But we don't discuss male attitude towards entitlement towards sex (if I take her out... she oughta put out), and how some men feel justified to get very forceful to then get their way. We dont talk much about how under reported rape is in this country - thus it is likely when Joe entitlment described again - does get called on his behavior (if he ever is reported) it isn't likely the first time he has committed rape. (This sadly, is one of the crosses I bear... by fearing reporting the rape, I have been condemned to know that this man certainly went on to rape others... that through pain of my own, could have been prevented.)

Most cases of rape are not about, not taking the face plate off the cd in the car. Indeed I know of few where the woman took unusual risks. But somehow this is where we (society) try to keep the conversation. Not let it stray into our societal obligation to raise awareness so that women are safe from our cousins, our brothers, our sons and our fathers IF they harbor and act upon the "entitlement" view of women described above. And frankly, if we are honest as a soceity and recognize that if one third of women are raped by the age of 30, than a good chunk of the male population (10%, 20% ????) are committing those rapes... suddenly the chances that someone we know - or even are related to might be at risk of becoming one of "them..."

When we start more discussions about the rapists among us - then we can revist the years and years of 'lower your risks ladies...' and the flip side 'so when you are raped, we can sure to tell you that its your fault - at least in part, because we gave you advice on how to avoid this and be safe... so you must have failed in that advice.'

Believe me i am not the only rape victim to have received that very message for many years. Intended or not - it is sent and reinforced with messages of "take personal responsibility for reducing your own risk" as a notion that this could prevent rape.

[kalibex]

378. Could the thief have chosen not to break in and go for the radio?

Answer: Yes.

[Fescue4u]

264. Being Drunk certainly makes one more likely to be raped

Just as walking down the street in a crime ridden inner city at midnight makes one more suspectible to being mugged.

But that only means the victim used poor judgement. But poor judgement doesnt rise to the level of being "at fault"

[LincolnMcGrath]

265. Stupid poll

[maximovich]

266. Sick.... Only a Rapist Could Justify This

A woman could walk around naked if she wanted, and that still would not give somebody the right to rape her. A rape victim is never at fault. Holy shit... this thread is disgusting. I know a few rape victims, and can tell you that if you said this in front of them... they'd cut your balls off.

[madmusic]

339. What about this?

There is another very important political slant to this subject and to crime in general. From...

Politics and Plea Bargaining: Victims' Rights in California, a book by Candace McCoy; University of Pennsylvania Press.

Criminal justice policies fit on a continuum between the two values of due process and crime control. Under certain conditions, there are more activities demonstrating due process; under other conditions, there are more crime control actions. Nobody seriously proposes abolishing either, but advocates mold political debate and action so as to push the pendulum in one direction or the other. This book describes the development of conditions that pushed the pendulum away from due process.

Those conditions include manipulation of public opinion by a dedicated group of law and order conservatives. Recognizing a powerful image -- the victim of crime, doubly victimized first by the criminal and then by the criminal justice system -- they claimed the image as their own and offered it as the antithesis to due process, which they defined as "defendants' rights." They used the unfortunate and emotionally laden plight of crime victims to justify their campaign to pass legislation overturning due-process-oriented caselaw and to institute court procedures which offered little opportunity for evidentiary challenge. "Thus although the call for victims' rights has been described as a populist movement reacting to perceived or real injustices in the processing of cases, in reality the victims' movement agenda has been co-opted by that of the supporters of the crime control model of criminal justice." 2

2. Emilio Viano, "Victim's Rights and the Constitution: Reflections on a Bicentennial", 33 CRIME & DELINQUENCY444 ( 1977). Viano notes that there is an important distinction between two wings of the victims' movement. The original widespread impetus to recognize the interests of victims in the criminal justice system came from the women's movement and first manifested itself in concern for rape victims. While these activists could be militant in demanding that court procedures change so as not to"revictimize," proposals for reform generally included compensation and restitution, social and psychological help, and more polite concern for victims and witnesses in preparing for court appearances. This essentially humanistic and social reformoriented movement contrasts sharply with the victims' movement as a vehicle for conservative ideology, which is the subject here.

[salin]

351. rape victim here - and am about as offended/angry

as you suggest.

[redqueen]

278. What disgusting responses.

Both the poll AND this thread.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

You know who you are.

[LostinVA]

318. You said it, Redqueen

Why do we always seem to meet on threads where I've used "Ignore" on at least two posters???

[mongo]

301. Very sad statistics

There is no way to "ask" to be raped. There is no way that a victim of rape is "responsible" for the crime.

Reading this thread, I do understand the point of some other posters that see some culpibility in managing your own safety.

But no one is raped becuase they just didn't keep themself safe enough.

[Cleita]

310. The blame the victim syndrome.

No one should be raped no matter how drunk they are. What if the woman is mentally impaired and is raped? Is it her fault too? I know most of us do try to keep ourselves out of harm's way, but if victimized do we need to be blamed for it too?

I mean you can be married and be raped by your husband. I suppose in that case they would accuse you of being frigid so it's your fault for him having to force himself on you. Rape is when sexual contact is forced on one party by another without their consent,period.

[Shakespeare]

313. This thread is disgusting.

I am revolted, but not--sadly--surprised at so many of the responses on this thread.

Anybody laboring under the fantasy that DU represents a more enlightened subset of society should read through this thread for a reality check.

[Fleshdancer]

325. you're smarter than I am....

I am very surprised by the responses in this thread. Obviously I was one of those DUers laboring under the fantasy that DU represents a more enlightened subset of society and yes, reading this thread is a sad, shocking reality check.

:(

[Shakespeare]

345. The only reason I'm not surprised....

....is that these threads happen on DU with predictable frequency, and you always have a chorus of responses like the ones on this thread, justifying rape (or discrimination or other unacceptable behavior).

[FreedomAngel82]

323. So I guess

no blame for the man right? :mad:

[Silent3]

337. Whenever sex is involved...

...so many people's opinions seem to go to extremes.

There's a big difference between a woman being attacked by a predator in a parking lot, or a religious extremist who claims that a woman who lets the barest hint of ankle peek out from underneath her burka "deserves" to be raped, and two adults entering a highly sexually charged atmosphere, both getting drunk, and one of them regretting what happens later.

There is no excuse for rape... but let's be damned careful about what we're going to call rape.

Everyone can agree that a violent sexual assault on a clearly unwilling victim is rape.

On the other hand, there are some people so extreme in their views of what constitutes a "victim" (99.9999% of the time female) and what constitutes an "attacker" (99.9999% of the time male) that you'd think that a man who touches a woman's left nipple after only having received explicitly clear permission to touch her right nipple (all of this after have run a breathalyzer test, a tox screen, checked two forms of ID to make sure of the woman is of age, and running a battery of psychological tests to make sure the woman is fully legally and morally ready to properly give consent) that he's A RAPIST and you're BLAMING THE VICTIM if you try excuse this man's UNFORGIVABLE behavior.

Come on, people... you can acknowledge that there are gray areas where intent and consent simply aren't clear, that, yes, a woman can bear some major responsibility for that confusion at times, and that you aren't on a slippery slope to legalizing roving rape gangs and aren't playing "blame the victim" just because you recognize these gray areas, and just because you aren't willing to call every sexual act a woman later regrets RAPE.

Sometimes things happen that are unfortunate, and icky, and unwanted which are just bad luck and bad circumstances, and which aren't CRIMES.

[usregimechange]

340. i.e. Republicans!

[Ladyhawk]

347. Hmmm...that's about what *'s approval rating is. Coincidence? :) n/t

[Ron Green]

355. There's a problem with logic in some of these posts:

If rape is only about violence and never about sex, then drunken coupling followed by regret and accusation is not rape, because it's a sexual act (albeit not a very pretty one.)

[Fleshdancer]

373. who here says that drunk consensual sex is rape?

people can get drunk and make stupid decisions that they later regret (having sex, driving, calling an ex lover, etc) but the problem is when a woman is raped - meaning that someone entered her body without permission - but the rapist, jury and society puts the blame on her because she was drunk. Or because she wore a short skirt. Or because she had sex in the past. Or because she was flirty. Or all of the above.

Rape is a sexual act of violence. Forcing yourself inside the body of someone else is a very violent power play.

[bleedingheart]

356. But if it was a Sister? Wife? Mother?

I think that a lot of men and women live in a bubble regarding rape. Everyone is a judge until they have to walk in those shoes.

So for all the prudes out there that are saying that victims are responsible if they are drinking, or walking alone...substitute that nameless victim with someone you love.

Let's say it is your 17 year old daughter on her way home from a friends house and she had a few beers and is a bit tipsy and one of your neighbor's decides to take advantage of the moment...and he rapes her...

....Did she really have it coming?

I think not.

[Silent3]

369. Suppose it's your 19 year old son...

...who, also drunk, misreads the situation he's in, has sex with a 17 year old girl, and wakes up the next day with rape charges filed against him. Suppose it's your son who might spend the rest of his life having to be a "registered sex offender".

I don't think anyone here is fighting over whether rape is right or wrong. The real disagreement is over what we're willing to call rape and how casually we're willing to label someone a "rapist". From the way some people sound, a woman merely has to regret what's she's done when she wakes up in the morning for sex to become rape.

[VelmaD]

371. I am so tired of the same old crap

Very few rapes ever get prosecuted and even fewer end up with guilty verdicts. Most rapists get off scot free whether they committed violent stranger rapes or date rapes.

Women have to do a helluva lot more than just "regret" it in the morning to get a rape conviction.

[Silent3]

383. You keep saying rapist this, rapist that...

...when the point I'm trying to raise is about defining when somebody really is a rapist or not.

You wrote: "Very few rapes ever get prosecuted and even fewer end up with guilty verdicts. Most rapists get off scot free whether they committed violent stranger rapes or date rapes."

I don't want actual rapists to get off "scot free". I just don't want men being casually declared "rapists" in less than clear-cut circumstances.

You wrote: "Women have to do a helluva lot more than just "regret" it in the morning to get a rape conviction."

And do you regret that the above is true? Do you wish that a woman's regret is all that it took to get a rape conviction? Instead of going on and on about "victims" and "rapists" as if it were a completely settled matter which is which and who is what, why don't you tell us what, in your book, constitutes rape? Are there any gray areas at all in your book? Are there any degrees of severity and blame?

[noiretextatique]

388. rape is non-consensual sex

a crime of violence and control...not a difficult thing to understand, really.
and on the contrary, i would say that many cases are very clear, those where children are victims, for example. i think the problem is how rape has become diminished as "date rape" in the minds of many, so that people like you are arguing about whether this despicable crime is really a crime at all. of course it is. are the facts always clear in every case? probably not, as with any other crime.
if the victim of rape was your grandmother, or a 3 year old child, would you still have a problem with "gray areas?"

[VelmaD]

391. What I regret...

is that even most vicitms of violent stranger rape are blamed for what happened to them and they are raked over the coals again if they're brave enough to try to prosecute. And they're rapist usually walks.

What I regret is that our society has raised generations of girls who don't feel like they can assert themselves and generations of boys who feel like every woman owes them sex.

I think there's a lot less gray than you want us to believe. I think a lot of people focus on what gray area there is to avoid talking about the bigger problem. Most rapes aren't a matter of drunken mistakes. Most date rapes aren't even like that. But buy focusing solely on that you can keep muddying the waters and keep the focus away from men and their culpability for their actions.

[bleedingheart]

375. what we are talking about is also impaired judgement and men

should take responsibility for their actions.

If my son or any other man prowls for sex while drunk or decides to have sex with women who are drunk (specifically one night stand situations) then he is really really dumb because that is terribly risky.

We all know that alcohol lowers people's inhibitions just as we know it will impair people's ability to drive a car.

I think that each situation must be judged separately, but I would be ashamed of my son if he were to grow up and do something like that.

My husband and I are raising him to have respect for women, just as his father does.

[salin]

381. AMEN!!

Throughout this thread (and it angers me so much that I HAVE to get off of this thread) the type of conversations you and your husband have with your son - is what I suggest is missing from the discussion of rape in this country. By keeping it about the girl and her blame, or pretending the issue of false accusation is the real problem, not rape - we keep at bay that folks committing rapes ARE related to us, friends with us, employed with us or perhaps even our employers. We can not address the far too high rate of rape in this country without the kinds of discussions you are having within your family.

:Thumbsup:

[salin]

377. frankly, with or without alcohol, I would guess that many mothers would

feel this way.

Had I brought charges (and I should have), I would expect the frmr eagle scout's mom would have feared more for her son spending his life with that stigma and not give a damn that her son raped me, and condemned me to life as a rape victim who has all sorts of funky means of coping - all developed in response to the rape (and none that unusual to rape survivors).

Point is, drunk or not, I would expect that this "mother's view" is the general response - and that in general it garners support from other friends and relatives, rape be damned (as if it just could never happen.)

From reading this thread quite the contrary to your point - most think that women can prevent being raped by being careful, and thus by default if they are raped that in many cases they bare some (if not all) responsibility for not reducing the risk of rape to 0%.

Glad to have another "poor boy" thread - because we KNOW that THEY NEVER commit rape. It is always about false accusations and alcohol.

:sarcasm:

Sorry for my angry response, it is more to the whole thread than to your post. Seems that blaming the victim OR putting the head in the sand to pretend there are no victims is still live and well - and a good explanatory cause as to rape continues to happen at such a high rate (1/3 women before they are 30) - because we never talk about it in an honest way - only in ways that blame women or that lament poor accused men - because no men that we actually know commit rape.

[VelmaD]

387. I hope you know...

how much some of us appreciate your input on this subject. I'm sending a hug your way because I figure you need one after dredging all this up again. :hug:

I think you've put it about as well as anyone could ever hope to. People don't want to admit this is men's problem too. They want us to be careful at all times without having to admit out loud that it's because every man is a potential rapist.

What does it say about our society that women have to be afraid of men?

I remember back in college hearing some frightening statistics...that the majority of college aged men surveyed said that they would force a woman to have sex if they knew they could get away with it. That disturbed me. I'm a very sex-positive person. I love sex. But for me the joy comes from the mutuality of the experience...from all involved enjoying what they're doing. I don't understand a mindset that sees sex with an unwilling partner as something fun. And I really don't understand all this talk about the gray area...I figure you have to be pretty self-absorbed and self-centered not to know whether your partner is consenting or not.

[Marr]

368. Interesting. Bush has a 1/3 approval rating, too.

Probably the same people.

[Spinoza]

376. The rape victim can, in some circumstances,

be "blamed" for acting foolishly and putting herself in needless danger or risk. Of course she cannot be blamed for doing anything morally wrong. The rape victim is criminally and morally completely innocent but can still be called to task for acting stupidly. Every woman should be aware that some men are a potential danger to her.

Let me give an analogy that I think is illuminating. You put a wallet or a purse on a park bench and walk away for a half hour. When you return it is gone. You didn't do anything "wrong". You didn't steal anything. After all, one should have the "right" not to have your possessions stolen. You should not be "blamed" for the theft. But, you are acting like a FOOL and should have been aware that there was a reasonable chance that you would not see your wallet or purse again. In that sense you do bear some blame for the theft. It didn't need to happen if you had exercised some reasonable prudence and foresight.

In the same context, a woman who gets drunk around men she doesn't absolutely know and trust (and sometimes even then) is not doing anything "wrong". She SHOULD have the right to act in this manner without risking harm. She SHOULD be free to act like a man without any more risk than a man would have. But what difference does "should" make? The fact is she is potentially putting herself in danger of rape or physical harm and can therefore be "blamed" for acting STUPIDLY.

[MissB]

384. Niiice.

I'd stick with blaming the rapist, myself.

[kalibex]

385. It's long past the time that the onus was all on us.

"The fact is she is potentially putting herself in danger of rape or physical harm and can therefore be "blamed" for acting STUPIDLY.'

And what about the men who acted maliciously, in raping her?

Why is no one asking them to change their behavior?

Such as, DON'T RAPE, EVER!

[Exiled in America]

390. That's not "responsibility"

If I leave my wallet on a park bench for half and hour, I am not partially culpable in the theft. I am have foolishly put myself in a position that increased the chance of someone else doing something wrong , but that's not the same as being "responsible" i.e. - to blame for what happened.

You say as much in your well done post. But I think the original link was referring much more to the fact that one third of the population accepts the "she was asking for it" line as a rape DEFENSE. That's how I read it.

And that's just wrong.

[Exiled in America]

379. Horrible, but sadly unsuprising - I run into this attituded often.

It makes me so sick.

I do think its a little naive to be suprised that this is such a common attitide given the direction of our cultural attitudes.

[Exiled in America]

386. WOW - I am now dumber for having read this thread.

Rape is rape.

If you're drunk, you do not lose your ability to consent.

Being young, male, or full of hormones is not, and never will be, a justification for rape.

There are not "shades" of rape and more than than you can "kind of" murder someone.

The victim is not ever - ever - to BLAME for his/her abuse. Someone walking butt-naked down a dark alley with "I love sex" painted across her chest is not "responsible" for rape. That might increase the risk of something happening to her that shouldn't happen, but that doesn't mean somehow rape is "justified" because "she was asking for it." That's just sick.

You can never be "partially responsible" for the total violation of your rights and choice. Ever.

Have a nice day.

[Gold Metal Flake]

392. Locking

This thread has unfortunately descended into a big ol' flamefest.