Krugman: TIME TO LEAVE

[understandinglife]

November 21, 2005

Time to Leave

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Not long ago wise heads offered some advice to those of us who had argued since 2003 that the Iraq war was sold on false pretenses: give it up. The 2004 election, they said, showed that we would never convince the American people. They suggested that we stop talking about how we got into Iraq and focus instead on what to do next.

It turns out that the wise heads were wrong. A solid majority of Americans now believe that we were misled into war. And it is only now, when the public has realized the truth about the past, that serious discussions about where we are and where we're going are able to get a hearing.

Representative John Murtha's speech calling for a quick departure from Iraq was full of passion, but it was also serious and specific in a way rarely seen on the other side of the debate. President Bush and his apologists speak in vague generalities about staying the course and finishing the job. But Mr. Murtha spoke of mounting casualties and lagging recruiting, the rising frequency of insurgent attacks, stagnant oil production and lack of clean water.

<clip>

The only way to justify staying in Iraq is to make the case that stretching the U.S. army to its breaking point will buy time for something good to happen. I don't think you can make that case convincingly. So Mr. Murtha is right: it's time to leave.

Link:

http://select.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/opinion/21krugman.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

Correct.

Finally.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

1. NY Times Editorial: "Now, about the abuse of Iraqis by Americans ..."

November 21, 2005

Accountability Begins at Home

It is hard to think of a more dangerous situation in Iraq right now than to have disenchanted Sunni Arabs believe that the police forces are in the control of Shiite gunmen who can detain and torture Sunnis at will. So the Bush administration made a good start by insisting on an immediate investigation of all Iraqi detention centers after the discovery of what looked like a Shiite militia-run torture chamber in the heart of Baghdad.

<clip>

There was a distinctly hollow ring to last week's talk by American officials of a zero-tolerance policy on the abuse of detainees in Iraqi-run prisons. Back at the ranch, Vice President Dick Cheney is still trying to legalize torture at C.I.A. prisons around the world; President Bush is still threatening to veto the entire Pentagon budget if Congress dares to impose actual rules on the handling of prisoners at military detention camps; and the officials behind the policies that led straight from the doctrine of legalized torture to the horrors of Abu Ghraib continue to be promoted, instead of being held accountable.

It took just a few days for the United States to demand a full investigation of Iraqi prisons. Washington immediately recognized that the Iraqi government could not investigate itself alone and assigned the Justice Department and the F.B.I. to help. This same administration, however, has spent the last 18 months obstructing the Senate's inquiries into Abu Ghraib and other aspects of the prison abuse mess, and has used the Republican leadership in Congress to block any outside investigations. It has narrowed the scope of its own inquiries to shield the civilian and military leadership.

We're happy the administration pressed for a full accounting of abuse of Iraqis by Iraqis. Now, about the abuse of Iraqis by Americans ...

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/opinion/21mon1.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

Correct.

Finally.


Peace.

[AuntPatsy]

2. Mind numbing

[me b zola]

3. We have reached a tipping point

I found it interesting that Congressman Murtha said today to trust him, that we would pull out along his timetable. I wonder what is going on behind closed doors.

[understandinglife]

7. We have, in_deed, reached the "tipping point" because our fellow ...

... citizens do have a clue. And, that was made overwhelmingly clear to Rep Murtha's staff on Thursday and Friday.

And, it was made overwhelmingly clear in poll after poll and Congressional phone log after phone log on Thursday and Friday.

Press on. Truth will prevail.

On a practical note, as I've indicated in a couple of recent threads and as many of you well know, NO Republican wants to be trying to save their seat in the HR or Senate in 2006 with American troops getting slaughtered in Bush and the neoconsters' war -- you know, The Iraqi Civil War that THEY started after lying to all of us and the entire world.


Peace.

[fob]

8. I think Murtha took their last "ace" that was up their ass

The reukes are extra pissed at Murtha because the "bringin' the troops home" theme was all they had left for 2006. So Murtha uses his brain, assesses the situation and gives his speech. At the same time he realizes of course that the repukes are falling apart so badly that they'll HAVE to bring the troops home to have anything to run on in 2006, so his spech worked to steal what little "thunder" those fuckers had left.

Brilliant.


Disclaimer: This may or may not be Murtha's strategy but I think this is the effect of his speech whether he meant to or not.

[understandinglife]

12. Appreciate your "disclaimer," but I think Rep Murtha is way smart ...

... enough to know exactly what he did and why he did it when he did.

Same for Senator Kerry's "20,000 out by the holidays" ...


Peace.

[Zinfandel]

30. fob is right on the money....

It may not have been Murth's intention but, he has denied pugs any credit for ending the war.

[burythehatchet]

16. it almost sounds like a silent

and bloodless coup. Murtha, you see, has the ear and respect of the generals. His pronouncement would not have been made without a lot of conferment with the military leadership. I suspect the leadership has decided enough is enough.

[understandinglife]

18. "I suspect the leadership has decided enough is enough."

I suspect you are very correct.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

19. And, then we have these three rather restless Repub dudes in the Senate ..

That private session was an early hint of a Republican feud that spilled into the open last week, as Senate Republicans openly challenged President Bush on American military policy in Iraq and the war on terrorism. In the center of the fray, pushing Congress to reassert itself, were those same three Republicans.

Though their views on the war differ, they have much in common: each is a member of the influential Senate Armed Services Committee, each has a strong maverick streak and each has personal ties to the military - and to one another, mostly through Mr. McCain.

Senator Warner, the committee chairman and a veteran of World War II and the Korean War, was secretary of the Navy when Mr. McCain's father commanded the armed forces in the Pacific and Mr. McCain was a prisoner of war in Vietnam. That experience, he says, "bonded me with John McCain."

Senator Graham, a former military lawyer, was co-chairman of Mr. McCain's 2000 campaign for president in South Carolina and still has bitter memories of the tactics used by operatives for Gov. George W. Bush. Should Mr. McCain make a White House bid in 2008, as is widely expected, Mr. Graham says he will be there.

<clip>

From the NYTimes lead article entitled In the Senate, a Chorus of Three Defies the Line

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
Published: November 21, 2005

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/politics/21trio.html?ei=5094&en=b5f2caf6bd98a9ae&hp=&ex=1132635600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all

Bush and Cheney will be gone long before 2008. American troops will be 'over the horizon' (i.e., out of Iraq) before November, 2006. Count on it.


Peace.

[me b zola]

21. I tend to agree with your assessment (mostly)

At least that is what it sounds like to me as well, a silent bloodless coup. I don't believe, though, that the administration is going to go down easily on this. I tend to believe that the military is rallying behind Murtha, but that entails a battle with the neo-con civilians at the Pentagon & WH. The stage is set. Roll the dice. Hope the good guys win.

[Jawja]

28. And that's what the "checks and balances"

are all about. I agree with the "silent coup" hypothesis. When the criminal civilian leadership of the military is using the troops for their own profit and are planning perpetual and expanding war, the only option for the brass other than outright mutiny is to go to the Congress, which has ultimate oversight on how the military used.

This is very possible, indeed.

[bigbrother05]

23. Saw Murtha on one of the Sunday talks,

might have been Wolfie. Were talking about the 6 months timeline, said it would be in 2006. Was asked if it would be before the election and replied, "Exactly" with no follow up. He clearly thinks the Pubs will cave to save their own hides.

[understandinglife]

29. Arianna Huffington: It was a great get for Meet the Press, the man you ...

... really wanted to hear from today, and he lived up to it.

Russert quickly moved to his patented "you said one thing a long time ago and now you say something different" thing. "As you well know," he asked Murtha, "this is a profound change in your own thinking... Why is it any different now than it was a year ago?"

Well, Tim, that's because lots of things are different now than they were a year ago (not Meet the Press, of course). Some people even consider it wisdom when politicians respond to changed realities by accordingly changing their positions. Tim is not among these people. John Murtha is:

MURTHA: "I'll tell you why it's different. It's different because there's no progress at all. When I went to Iraq about two months ago, I talked to the commanders. Now the commanders say what they're supposed to say, but I can tell how discouraged they are... Since we've become the enemy, since they're attacking our troops and we've destabilized the area, I have changed my mind and have come to the conclusion now is the time to start to redeploy our troops to the periphery and let the Iraqis take over."

RUSSERT: In hindsight, do you now believe your vote for the war in Iraq in 2002 was a mistake?

MURTHA: Obviously, it was a mistake.

Words don't quite capture it. You should have seen his face. No doubt, no hesitation: "Obviously, it was a mistake." Impressive.

Link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/russert-watch-murtha-int_b_10970.html

The truth is the truth; finding anyone inside the Beltway to state it is truly impressive, these days.

How sad.

But, at least a few are doing it, and some, like Conyers, Boxer, Slaughter, Lee ..., have been doing it persistently since the biggest, most treasonous lie -- the one in 2000, was forced on the American people by Scalia and SCOTUS.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

4. "The Power of One Clear Voice Backed By Unimpeachable Ethics"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5402776


Peace.

[understandinglife]

5. "Larry Johnson: Why John Murtha is Right!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5402895


Peace.

[babylonsister]

6. Thanks; the link doesn't work, and you know it, and that sucks.

Krugman rocks, and I will read this!

[understandinglife]

9. Damn. Sorry. I must remember that. As soon as TruthOut ...

... or someone picks up the Op-Ed, I will post the link.

In the meantime:

Representative John Murtha's speech calling for a quick departure from Iraq was full of passion, but it was also serious and specific in a way rarely seen on the other side of the debate. President Bush and his apologists speak in vague generalities about staying the course and finishing the job. But Mr. Murtha spoke of mounting casualties and lagging recruiting, the rising frequency of insurgent attacks, stagnant oil production and lack of clean water.

Mr. Murtha - a much-decorated veteran who cares deeply about America's fighting men and women - argued that our presence in Iraq is making things worse, not better. Meanwhile, the war is destroying the military he loves. And that's why he wants us out as soon as possible.

I'd add that the war is also destroying America's moral authority. When Mr. Bush speaks of human rights, the world thinks of Abu Ghraib. (In his speech, Mr. Murtha pointed out the obvious: torture at Abu Ghraib helped fuel the insurgency.) When administration officials talk of spreading freedom, the world thinks about the reality that much of Iraq is now ruled by theocrats and their militias.

<clip>

Mr. Bush never asked the nation for the sacrifices - higher taxes, a bigger military and, possibly, a revived draft - that might have made a long-term commitment to Iraq possible. Instead, the war has been fought on borrowed money and borrowed time. And time is running out. With some military units on their third tour of duty in Iraq, the superb volunteer army that Mr. Bush inherited is in increasing danger of facing a collapse in quality and morale similar to the collapse of the officer corps in the early 1970's. So the question isn't whether things will be ugly after American forces leave Iraq. They probably will. The question, instead, is whether it makes sense to keep the war going for another year or two, which is all the time we realistically have.

Link:
ibid to the OP

Peace.

[understandinglife]

14. "Pessimists think that Iraq will fall into chaos whenever we leave. If so,

... we're better off leaving sooner rather than later. As a Marine officer quoted by James Fallows in the current Atlantic Monthly puts it, "We can lose in Iraq and destroy our Army, or we can just lose."

ibib.

Good observation, don't you think....


Peace.

[understandinglife]

15. "And there's a good case to be made that our departure will actually ...

... improve matters. As Mr. Murtha pointed out in his speech, the insurgency derives much of its support from the perception that it's resisting a foreign occupier. Once we're gone, the odds are that Iraqis, who don't have a tradition of religious extremism, will turn on fanatical foreigners like Zarqawi.

ibid

Many of us have noted that removing the target might be wise. Then, those still wanting to participate in The Iraqi Civil War will have no excuse -- they will be fully exposed as what they are, murderers of each others' wives, children, grand parents and the like.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

26. TruthOut link to full article:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112105J.shtml


Peace.

[aquart]

10. Yes, you will.

Do they put them up the next day at topplebush.com?

[understandinglife]

13. Please see # 9 ... ;)

I'm trying ...


Peace.

[gratuitous]

11. Press, press, press this advantage

These bloody-fingered fuckers are reeling and on the ropes. Now is the time to press the advantage, because they won't give up the power they've stolen without a big fight. Be prepared to get hit, but don't be fazed; it's not so bad, and we've got the giant economy size can of whoop-ass to open up here, and it's labeled "TRUTH."

[girl gone mad]

17. This is why every Democrat should get behind Murtha..

and I don't just mean defend his reputqation. They need to get united and support his resolution. They can't keep defending "stay the course" with their wishy-washy language. Murtha framed it perfectly. The troops have done everything they can do. It's time for them to come home.

[understandinglife]

20. "Murtha framed it perfectly. The troops have done everything they can do.

It's time for them to come home."

IN_DEED.


Peace.

[understandinglife]

27. AP: Murtha Says Americans Agree With Him

Murtha Says Americans Agree With Him

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 12:53 p.m. ET

JOHNSTOWN, Pa. (AP) -- Rep. John Murtha on Monday defended his call to pull U.S. troops from Iraq, saying he was reflecting Americans' sentiment in his comments last week.

''The public turned against this war before I said it,'' said Murtha, a key Democrat on military issues. ''The public is emotionally tied into finding a solution to this thing, and that's what I hope this administration is going to find out.''

<clip>

''The guys in Congress are scared to death to say anything because they might be vilified,'' Murtha said. ''The soldiers can't speak for themselves. We sent them to war and, by God, we're the ones that have to speak out.'' Murtha said he was unmoved by criticism he's received from President Bush, others in Congress and the public.

<clip>

''You can't spin this. You've got to have a real solution,'' Murtha said. ''This is not a war of words, this is a war.''

Murtha said he specifically asked more liberal members of his party not to step forward to support him because ''I didn't want (the public) to think this was a Democrat position plotted from the left wing.'' And he expressed confidence that terrorist bombings in Iraq would cease once U.S. troops were gone and Iraqis became solely responsible for their destiny.

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Murtha-Iraq.html?pagewanted=print

Correct.

Finally.


Peace.

[Eric J in MN]

22. At first I thought the title

was calling on Bush to leave office.

[wellst0nev0ter]

24. Free copy

LINK

is in two parts, other part is in next message.

[Gasping4Truth]

25. "Printer-friendly" free copy

here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.impeach.bush/msg/1b81a36d79e80651
:-)