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People stop the "I'm not supporting so and so shit. We need to be united

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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:26 PM
Original message
People stop the "I'm not supporting so and so shit. We need to be united
and worry about 2006 and KICK all those mother fuckers out!


get on the message and do your part TODAY

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great post - recommended
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. thank you
I am so sick of the Im not supporting ...


2008 is a long way off but 2006 is NEXT freakin year


we need to get on point!!!
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
53. I am not supporting Greenbriar for greatest page. Here's why.
I don't have to be ABR until after the primaries.
I do agree that people make far too much out of 2008 and ignore 2006 which seems far more important to me. However, Lieberman and Hillary are both running in 2006 and I would like to see them challenged in a primary. Let's have a democracy here.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Agree that I don't have to be ABR either...
I don't like several of the Dems who seem to vote in lockstep with GOP priorities. And I definitely don't have to support them since they have swung so far right I can't even turn my head that far.

They are a shame to the ideas and principles I believe in. They might as well be Reeptiles.

Sue
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Road Scholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
57. Every time someone rants on and on about something
or somebody that they don't support, a segment of potential voters is alienated. Not too smart if you want to win. We must learn to keep some of the emotional issues to ourselves to win.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. THANK YOU!!!! K & R!
:dem: :yourock:
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yepper; we've just seen what happens when the repugs duke it out n/t
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just remember, while I agree with you on your point...
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice..."

I will not support Kerry if he tries to run again. His debate performance during election 2004 was enough on its own to tip the scales to * by the undecideds; he wouldn't answer flip-flop accusations and could easily have put the SAME questions back at * - which is surely not an unfair practice?!

But that's in the past. And that's where it stays.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. In the past? Really?
Your post makes no sense!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
52. Here we go again... ELEPHANT poop in a unity thread!
Isn't it a shame? I wonder how many people who post this crap are on the GOP payroll.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Wrong. Kerry won the debates hands down! If
undecideds are too damn stupid to realize that...
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jamesinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Kerry won the election too
Edited on Sun Nov-20-05 11:10 PM by jamesinca
At least according to the GAO Kerry won the '04 Presidency

http://www.yuricareport.com/VotingProblems/GAO-05-956Elections.pdf
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. You Wouldn't Support Kerry For Re-Election To The Senate?
Is that what you meant? I know this thread is about the Mid-Term Congress Elections, so it can't be related to 08 right? Or did you mean for 08?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. The only person I will not support is a Republican. For the rest, I will
see after 06.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
49. I could not disagree more
Kerry was very good in the debates.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. I agree. This harms us and gives the enemy ammunition
to beat us over the head with . The MSM picks this up and runs stories that say that Dems are eating their own again and are in disarray and are buffoons and incapable of governing or running anything. The meme spreads and makes it easier to discourage good candidates from showing up and running as Democrats.

But, what do we care, there is a good bashing to be had.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. Just Like Being Anti-War Gives Insurgents
ammunition?

How many times have we heard that from the GOP & MSM?
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ya' got to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative --
Latch on to the affirmative,
And don't mess around with Mr. In-Between.

IMHO, posts that knock people down as possible candidates years in advance of a race - are downers.

:(

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. OK, but what is the message? There are several issues that divide
we Dems and all voters.

Just which side of those issues qualifies for your "get on the message"?
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. It's one thing to discuss issues. It's another thing to diss
Democratic leaders especially when the post is transparently intended merely to whack the person.

It's an even more useless thing to say specifically "Waahhh!!! So-and-so isn't perfect and I'm not going to support him/her! Waahhh!!"

And finally, to do so in 2005 in the context of 2008, is really sadly useless.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I take your reply as "I don't know what the message is." n/t
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Riiiiight. Let's try this again.
The first "message" is that the Democratic Party is great, and that individual Democrats are great. Interpeting just a teensy bit from the o.p., one might think that the "message" one should pay particular attention to, is the message that the Democratic candidates in one's own district are particularly better than the alternative.

There are tons of reasons why this is so, and sub-parts to the "message", depending on your individual priorities. I'm not going to write a book about it here. You could start with the DNC website - http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html. You might want to sign up for a community group or two (http://www.democrats.org/communities.html), such as the women or veteran, and get the newsletter. The community newsletters are pretty helpful with "message".

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BJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. probably would be useful
for you to answer the question you posed, rather than asking someone else to answer it for you. Where do you think agreement is? Disagreement? What are the issues you think are most important?
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just give me a damn (D.) after their name -- we've got a country...
to save. (Thank God, for example, for that Dem hawk Murtha.) And thank you, greenbriar.
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. add a 2006 Election to Democrats forum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=348

To go a little further, why not a 2008 Election as well?

We need to be focusing on issues that are important today because they will impact the 2006 and 2008 elections.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. Agreed and Well Said.
Much Much Much bigger fish to fry right now. No putting the cart before the horse.

All eyes on 06!!!!!!!

I'm with ya greenbriar.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Agree! n/t
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank You.... n/t
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. You didn't even say the magic word
:shrug:
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Please
there...

magic word said!
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. I agree we need to unite.
I heard Tweety say not long ago, "EVERYONE hates the Democrats!" and I thought, yeah, even the Democrats. :eyes:

I agree it's time for us at DU to knock off bashing our own and concentrate on sticking it to the republicans by focusing on 06 and taking back Congress.

(thread recommended and :kick: )
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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. I would like the debate on the kind of campaigns to be run if
not the actual candidates. It might help the candidates if they read DU and see what a cross-section of us hopes to see. Pollsters may not understand that people give one kind of answer and really want something else but on DU there has been some consistency, esp. in a strong, firm message delivered rapidly and without apology.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
24. I can't support you in not supporting the people who don't support.
eom
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yes, we need to work for 2006.
The other side of this is that we may have to do what it takes to keep ourselves from being distracted by the "I'm not supporting so and so" shit. There will always be whiners and attention whores on this message board - I've been pretty strict about putting unproductive people on ignore so that they do not further leech off my time here.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. I want to hear everyone promote their choice, but commit to unity.
That is how we do it.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Nothing wrong with that suggestion, seems wise.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. let's sing it like Queen Latifah, yall!
U-N-I-T-Y
That's a unity.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. right on!
not to mention all this attack poison will only be used against whoever wins.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. Still excellent and more than ever appropriate.
This thread should be on the main page -
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thank you for posting this.
I will support ANY democrat, even if they are not my personal choice.

The WORST republican-lite dem is better than ANY REPUBLICAN.
Admit it - you'd take Lieberman over Bsh anyday.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. No way on God's Green Earth! I DEMAND
that Liebermann isn't an issue/get RID of him!
Come on, CTers!
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks~
I just think we need to do this one election at a time and we need to Must worry about 2006
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
37. no to DINOs -they can support us first,...THEN!
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Hypatia82 Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
38. So a party name...
matters more than ideas and principles and people's own particulars? In other words everyone should forget their own issues and just go with the collective? What next, resistance is futile? Sounds like the Borg, and that will not sit with a lot of people. Nevermind telling people to shut up with their own issues is to tell them they don't matter. And if you tell people that, well then, why bother saying anything at all?
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. that is NOT what is being said...
but enjoy your short stay



What the point is is to deal with the present!
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Uh, no, that's not what the post says.
Discussion of issues is healthy. There is plenty of room for disagreement on issues - the op didn't say "hey stop with the gun control threads" did he?

The problem the op is addressing, is the gratuitous "Waahhh, I don't like X" threads. Attacks against a person who is a respected (outside of DU anyway) member of the party are not helpful. If you disagree with their ideas, fine - discuss their ideas, and back up your contention of what is a better idea. But make it about the issue, not about the person. And saying in 2005 "I will not support X in 2008" is just, well, silly, and invoking the specter of "the Borg" in response to being asked to chill on the 2008 negativity crap is also silly.
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Hypatia82 Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I dunno...
Why shouldn't someone just say they won't vote for someone when in fact they won't? There is after all a Congressional election a year away, not too far out to decide who someone will vote for especially if its in the incumbent. Why expect people to not say they won't vote for someone?
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
40. Agreed.

But it's morbid fun reading those threads for the sheer stupidity, mythology, and Republican talking points.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
43. I think we should unite behind whoever Diebold and ES&S selects for...
...our candidate in 2008, and utilize that War Democrat's administration--if Diebold and ES&S decide, for their own reasons, to let him/her win in '08--to try to achieve transparent elections in one fell swoop by federal action. Even a War Democrat will have to pay lip service to progressive values such as honest, transparent elections. It may be our one chance to achieve that goal on a national basis. (Otherwise it's a slow slog state by state, county by county, that may take decades.)

Our votes are now tabulated by two far rightwing Bushite corporations--Diebold and ES&S--using "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code in the new electronic systems--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it. This outrageous and utterly unacceptable condition is WHY we have 60% to 70% majorities in the issue polls opposing every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, for the last two years, and could not dislodge the Bush junta, and cannot be heard in Washington DC.

We MUST restore our right to vote. We do not have a democracy without it. There is no higher priority. Without transparent elections, we can do nothing to stop the killing in Iraq, or to achieve desperately needed change on any issue. There are many extremely urgent priorities--busting the war profiteering corporate news monopolies and restoring democracy to our public airwaves; reigning in global corporate predators; drastically re-thinking "defense"; criminal proceedings against war looters to recover funds; a revamping of the tax code; universal medical care, and on and on. But without the right to vote--that is, with our votes counted behind a veil of secrecy, controlled by rightwing interests--we can't even begin to set our country on the right path.

58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion. I'll never forget that stat. It was burned into my memory. Feb. '03. 58%! Yet we were given two pro-war candidates to choose between in 2004: one who had prosecuted an illegal war based on lies and whose policy of deliberate mismanagement created the chaotic conditions for major looting of our treasury and subjugation of the Iraqi people, and another who promised to run a better war and who failed to object to the illegality of the Iraq war or to the use of torture and indefinite detention against prisoners of war.

We were not permitted the choice of rejecting the war altogether--even with a big majority opposed to it.

The conditions that limited our choice remain in place. The vote tabulation is non-transparent and controlled by fascists and warmongers; and the news media is still largely controlled by the same fascist political and financial forces who brought us this illegal war (and who, not incidentally, ALTERED their own exit polls, on election night, 2004--polls that Kerry won--to FIT the results of Diebold's and ES&S's secret formulae (Bush won), thus depriving the American people of major evidence of election fraud).

It may be in the interest of the rightwing to let a War Democrat win in '08, and start taking some of the rap for Bush's financial and foreign policy disasters--also to get a Draft (which Bush cannot do), and to put down the food, jobs and veterans protests--preparatory to a worse fascist regime in '12 (say, Jeb). We should not let ourselves be distracted by the issue of who we like, or who we don't like, among the pro-war and faux antiwar candidates who will be permitted to win primaries. It doesn't matter. We are not going to get a true antiwar candidate or true populist nominated. (They won't take that risk, even with control over the vote tabulation, which, of necessity, is really only control of the 3% to 10% tweak they must do, to select the Repub.) (The tweak can't be suspiciously high, and likely has to be pre-programmed--limitations on the fraudsters.)

So-o-o-o, in that case (a War Democrat being permitted to win), our first priority MUST BE election reform. Until we have election reform, we can do little or nothing about any other issue. We may get a few sops from such a Democratic regime--jawboning about a peace initiative in the Middle East; perhaps a mild tax or two on the rich; slightly less cruel policies on programs for the poor, curtailment of some of the worst corporate abuses, etc.--but none of the fundamental policy changes that are so desperately needed: such as a total re-thinking of the "defense" issue; busting of the corporate news monopolies; universal health care; elimination of private money in political campaigns, etc.

The latter--serious, desperately needed revolutionary change, nor even mildly serious reform--CANNOT occur with Diebold and ES&S controlling our vote tabulation.

We really need to think about what the Bushites, and Diebold and ES&S, did to us in 2004. We really have only one viable political party left in the U.S.--the Democratic Party--and it is seriously corrupt and compromised. The Republican Party is a sham, a party based on fraudulent elections; a wholly owned subsidiary of the oil companies and the Saudis; full of Bush "pod people" who spout Rovian "talking points." The Republican Party itself has been the victim of the Bushite fascist coup. This is a VERY BAD political situation, in and of itself, but made even worse by non-transparent elections. We CANNOT ACHIEVE a majority of real populists in Congress. It WILL NOT BE PERMITTED. We CANNOT ELECT a real antiwar, populist Democrat to the White House, no matter how popular that person might be. The range of the political spectrum has been severely restricted--and has been moved far, far to the right of the American people.

And transparent elections are the ONLY mechanism that we have for achieving political health--a wide spectrum of ideas and choices, a lively political life--and other kinds of progress.

If Diebold and ES&S compounds their 2004 election theft with further entrenchment of the minority fascists, in '06 and '08, then we will be in a revolutionary situation similar to 1776, and will have to consider more dire measures, such as taking hammers to their election theft machines (as someone suggested in a recent thread)--or throwing their election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor,' so to speak. Refusing to vote. Refusing to participate. A General Strike. Shutting down the country, until our right to vote is restored. This can be done peacefully, without harm to persons--although it might have to involve harm to machines. But there is nothing more sacred, or more important, than our right to vote, and if ever damage to machines was justified, it would be in this instance--a justification very similar, for instance, to the Jesuit priests who poured blood on Draft records in the 1960s; that is, civil disobedience, wherein you openly accept the legal consequences of your actions--including, potentially, jail.

But we are not quite there yet. I strongly suspect that we will be permitted some modest Congressional gains in '06 (but nowhere near a majority) and will get a War Democrat (by which I mean also a Corporate Democrat) in '08--if, for no other reason, than to throw suspicion off of the utterly fraudulent and non-transparent election system that has been put into place. But we must not be distracted--neither by these permitted seeming gains, nor by the OTHER issues that we would like to see addressed. Of course we must protest the war and do everything we can to get it scaled down, and to stop the killing and torture. And there are other important items, all of them urgent. But if we fail to reform the election system, and get it out of the hands of rightwing corporations, any modest gains we make for the majority CAN AND WILL BE QUICKLY UNDONE, and we will have no power to do anything about it.

As is evident in California right now, Diebold is seeking yet more control of the vote count: the introduction in California of their infamous touchscreens, the worst of their election theft machines. This is what we have to look forward to--a continuous struggle on multiple fronts, with their money and power often overwhelming citizen groups--if we fail to take advantage of the installation of a War Democrat to achieve full and quick election reform.

One final word: The facts about our election system can be very discouraging, and can provide an easy excuse for frustrated people not to vote. We must not let that happen. We must never, never, NEVER give up on our right to vote. NEVER! And there is at least the theoretical possibility of overwhelming the fraud with massive turnouts of progressive voters. We MUST NOT lie to people. They have a right now to know what's going down--and it really cannot be remedied without the help of the majority. But we must also not let that knowledge create despair and defeatism.

In fact, if people are informed about the non-transparency and fraudulence of our voting system, then they will be better prepared to understand fraud-created defeat.

Most people do not understand this now, about 2004. They think we lost. And they get into fractious debates about WHY we lost (even here at DU) that are largely irrelevant. We lost because the rightwing gained control of the vote tabulation with secret, proprietary programming code.

And anybody who thinks they didn't USE it--after going to so much trouble to set up a non-transparent, fraudulent, controlled system--is just being naive.

They set it up this way (during the 2002-2004 period); they used it to keep Bush in power. And the Democrats are afraid of it. That's mainly why they have been silent, I think--that, and plain corruption (lavish lobbying by Diebold, ES&S and the others). They can't afford to alienate the fascist corporations who are "counting" the votes, nor the local/state election officials who are in the thrall of these fascist companies, and who have become powermongers themselves (lording and ladying it over the dumb, peon voters, with their ever so expert, esoteric knowledge of electronic voting gobble-de-gook).

Whether or not the Kerry campaign could have overcome the fraud--by a more aggressive, more antiwar, more populist campaign--is another question. It's probable that he could have, in theory. He won by at least a 4% to 5% margin. If he had won by, say, 10%, the pre-programmed fraud (and the additional overt vote suppression in Ohio and elsewhere) might not have been able to steal it from him. But, personally, I think the Bush junta had contingency plans for a "terrorist alert" shutdown of the vote count, in that event, and that there is no way they would have given up power. They were/are just too vulnerable to impeachment and other prosecution (being the major criminals that they are), and they had a lot more war profiteering to do, a lot more protection and consolidation of their ill gotten gains, and a lot more thieving intentions toward the poor to be implemented, as well as long term plans (a la McKinley, Coolidge and Hoover) of packing the Supreme Court with fascists to prevent future reform, no matter how badly things go with our Bushite-looted economy.

So, basically, I don't think there is anything Kerry could have done that would have made any difference. I do wish he had been honest--and/or far smarter--about the election system, early on. The American people deserved a warning, at least. The solicitation of our donations on election night to help insure "that every vote will be counted" left a mighty bitter taste in my mouth, and in that of others, I'm sure. His early concession may have been necessary, or a strategic move. We just can't know. He was opposing major criminals, very dangerous people. I can't and won't judge him on that. And he most certainly was ill advised--by people who may have been in the pocket of Diebold and ES&S, and of the rightwing Israeli lobby (pro Iraq war). I think he's an honest, decent and intelligent man, and would have made (and may still make) a decent president. But the American people have been lied to, about more than the war. They've been lied to and deceived on the loss of our fundamental right to vote--by the Democrats as well as by the Republicans. And I wish to God it had been acknowledged. We would be so much better off now.

Instead we are back at square one. We've essentially lost our right to vote, and almost nobody knows it. Some may have a vague feeling that it might be true, but they don't know the how and the why, or how to fix it. That is a very bad situation, a breeder of hopelessness.

-------------------------------

We need...

1. Paper ballots hand-counted at the precinct level (--Canada does it in one day, although speed should not even be a consideration, just accuracy and verifiability)

or, at the least...

2. Paper ballot (not "paper trail") backup of all electronic voting, a 10% automatic recount, very strict security, and NO SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! (...jeez!).

---------------------------

Please see this URGENT ACTION thread re: Diebold in California!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5410364

The Sacramento hearing and rally are tomorrow (Monday). Letters, emails and phone calls are urgently needed.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
44. Short term thinking is what's cost the Dems their relevance
And they have been irrelevant- if you look at the record. Every nominee- no matter how incompetant, corrupt or extreme- gets approved. Every single piece of egregious legislation- gets passed.

The Dems end up being perceived as being cowardly- and standing for nothing.

Why?

Because of thinking like this. Because there's no accountability for the DINO's. They can take the money- sell out the party and their constituents- and feel (apparantly correctly so) that progressives can just take it of leave it.

Welp- this progressive has decided to leave it.

I won't be supporting the DINO in my district. Period. If the Dems are smart enough to get his Republican enabling (and Republican voting) ass out of office via a pimary- and if there's no Green running next fall- then I may well just vote Republican for the first time in my life.

I'll probably just abstain- but the point is that if the Dems EVER weant to regain power- or even something other than marginal relevancy- they need to get their own house in order FIRST.

If 6 election losses in a row haven't shown people that Republican lite is losing strategy- and a losing way of life- then I don't know what will.

Want a viable Democratic Party again- one that stands up for Democratic principles- and doesn't enable or vote with the far right?

Then hold your legislator accountable. It may mean a short term loss- but in the longer view- it's the only way to become the majority party again.

BTW: I'll be telling everyone I know in this Congressional district the same thing. Become the margin of victory on the Medicare scam- vote for the Bankruptcy Bill (among other things) and you forfeit your right to progressive support.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
45. the first thing we have to do -- before 2006 -- is . . .
get the voting machines and the vote tabulating out of Republican hands . . .

'cause if we don't it won't much matter who we run . . .
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Pinko Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
46. You put the words in my mouth. n/t
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
48. Agreed, 2006 come before 2008
I'm not supporting anybody for 2008 till we get past 2006.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
50. I never respond too favorably to speech control
I won't be united behind "any" candidate. So at some point it has to be "ok" to discuss what candidate(s) would be the right one(s).

Let me know when that is.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
51. THANK YOU! At last some sanity!
Everytime I see some MF elephant come in and bash one of our people I want to shove a mouse up their trunk. 2006 is getting close and they are getting scared.

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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
54. Here's my opinion on the matter:
NOW is the time to say "I'm not supporting so and so shit." NOW is the time for people to be very vocal about what is or is not acceptable in a Democratic candidate. The time for us to come together, is after the primaries. Whoever wins, that's the time we all need to just close our eyes and swallow.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. This is good advice, Backlash Cometh! We have a right to slug it out in..
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 05:58 PM by Peace Patriot
the primaries. That is--theoretically--what they are for, for party members to select the candidate.

I think we should fight ferociously for progressive values, representation for the views and interests of the great progressive majority in this country, and for true antiwar, populist candidates, and then see where we are, after the primaries. If nothing else, we will have put the Diebold/ES&S and corporate news monopoly-selected Dems on notice that we are sick of their slimebag ways and demand change. (And I do think they are starting to get the message already. That Parliament-like shoutfest in Congress the other day, over Murtha, was a sight to behold! Loved it!)

In the election itself, we will need to keep several things in mind: 1. The URGENT, DESPERATE NEED to reform our election system, achieve transparent elections, and remove Bushite corporations from control over vote tabulation. 2. This should be our priority no. 1 issue, and the Dems are certainly the more likely to be responsive to it--we should get as much transparency as we can from these "selected" candidates (who have to at least pay lip service to progressive values such as honest elections). 3. Beware of lies and promises, and stay on them without let, throughout their terms, on all important issues. (I voted for the "peace candidate," LBJ, in 1964, and got the Vietnam war, and upwards of 2 million people slaughtered, as a result. Hard lesson, that.).

There are three broad litmus test issues: a) election reform (top priority); b) the Iraq war, preemptive war, torture, and bloated and unaccountable "defense" spending; and c) piling Bush's horrendous deficit on the backs of the poor.

I think the social issues (women's rights, for instance; and separation of church and state) will take care of themselves, partly because there is such a broad, progressive consensus in the country, and once Bush & Co. are out, we will go back to normal, to that consensus. The rightwing social policies are, and always will be, minority views. And Bush & Co. are complete hypocrites about them. (They are no more 'Christian' than Osama bin Laden is.) The only thing that really matters to them is war profiteering and other forms of thievery.

Two other possible litmus tests I didn't mention are: global corporate predation and "free trade" piracy (and associated worker rights, environmental issues, and other issues), and the war profiteering corporate news monopolies who (under Clinton!) absconded with our public airwaves and are using them for fascist propaganda. Oh, and a third: what to do about Bush's Supreme Court? (there ARE solutions!).

These three latter issues may be things that we have to reserve for the future, for when we restore our right to vote--with one exception, environmental issues. Our planet is in such peril that this really cannot wait. We MUST convert to alternative fuels and start doing it IMMEDIATELY. And we MUST take strong action to protect forests. That's the very least we must do. The very existence of humanity--and of life on earth--depends upon it. Global warming is upon us. With U.S. leadership, we can slow it down, and look for other solutions. Congressional candidates' ties to oil companies and other extraction/development industries must be scrutinized. The Repubs used to be good on environmental issues--early on, in California, much more progressive than the Dems. Those who want to distinguish themselves from the Bushites would be smart to actually try to make themselves more attractive than the Dems, on environmental issues. If they were to combine this with a call for true election reform, I might be tempted to vote Repub for the first time in my life.

I doubt if Diebold/ES&S will permit a Dem majority in Congress, but they may permit us some modest gains, if for no other reason than to throw suspicion off of their fraudulent election system. Our litmus tests therefore simply cannot be too stringent. We have to think: strategy and priorities. And we have to look to the long term. Election reform is the key to a long turn restoration of democracy.

Finally, whatever Diebold's, ES&S's and the far right's intentions--in granting us modest gains in '06, or selecting a War Democrat in '08 (for their own reasons)--we must be smart, and focus on strategy and priorities, and take Germany 1932--the fracturing of the center/left, and its inability to govern--as a warning. We are currently suffering under a fascist coup, of sorts. It is not yet outright Nazism, at least here at home. But it could go there. We have to be very careful about this. One of their reasons for permitting a War Democrat to take over the White House might be to foist some of the blame for Bush's financial and foreign policy disasters onto the Dems, preparatory to a worse fascist coup in '12--especially if there is great civil disorder, great financial trouble, workers' revolts, veterans' revolts, etc. What if the War Democrat takes us into Iran or Syria--by some manufactured, "Gulf of Tonkin" type incident? What will we do then? What if a War Democrat proposes a military Draft? What if there is another 9/11?

We have to look out for these possibilities--Hitler-like moves of the fascists to regain power. We cannot take anything for granted until we have restored our right to vote and have regained our sovereignty as a people. Despite some positive signs, we are still teetering on the brink of complete loss of our democracy and our country. Don't think that the fascists are going to sit back and let us impeach them, and prosecute them, and start undoing their enormous gains. They are scheming, even now, in ways that we can hardly fathom.

I'm reminded of the 1999 Seattle anti-WTO protests: 50,000 people PEACEFULLY protesting the lack of democracy in this global "free piracy" body and PEACEFULLY shutting that meeting down (totally, totally mischaracterized and slandered by the corporate media). I suspect that that protest inspired the massive Republican election fraud in 2000, and the new electronic voting scam in 2004--because Clinton was not able to keep a lid on awareness and protest of global trade piracy, looting and profiteering and its horrendous impacts here and abroad.

I would never say: don't protest! I'm just saying: Be aware! There is a REASON that they took away our right to vote here. An American citizen's vote is an extremely potent and powerful item. We have the power, in theory, to dismantle these global corporate predators and seize their assets. At the least, we can strongly regulate them. They know this. Oh, do they ever! We also have the power to substantially assist peace and justice in the world, and to substantially assist the saving of our planet--if we ever can get back our right to vote. This is why they propagandize us so relentlessly (and so cleverly, in many ways). And this is why they took over our election system.

Ergo: The prime revolutionary act that we must perform is to retrieve our vote--our sovereignty--from our Corporate Rulers. We can do little else without it. But with it, we can transform the world.

-------------

Note: Many people don't know this, but the war profiteering corporate news monopolies actually ALTERED their own exit polls (which Kerry won) late on election day, to FIT the results of Diebold's and ES&S's secret, proprietary vote tabulation formulae (Bush won). They put FALSE NUMBERS on everybody's TV screens. (That's why so many people were confused. Kerry was winning all day long, then suddenly it changed. They had begun MIXING their pure exit poll results with the Diebold/ES&S secretly tweaked numbers.)

Upshot: We cannot trust the numbers on our TV screens. And they have promised, next time, to PREVENT anyone getting ahold of their real exit poll numbers. So, we must find ways to independently monitor and verify elections.

Two useful sites:

http://www.votersunite.org --an easy to read pamphlet on the perils of electronic voting ("Myth Breakers")

http://www.UScountvotes.org --a project for statistical monitoring and challenges of the '06 and '08 elections. (They need donations.)

We need statistical monitoring, parallel elections, independent exit polls, and whatever other tools we can come up with, to achieve as much transparency as possible, and to gather evidence for election reform efforts.

---------------

In general, we need:

1. Paper ballots hand-counted at the precinct level (--Canada does it in one day, although speed should not even be a consideration, just accuracy and verifiability)

or, at the least...

2. Paper ballot (not "paper trail") backup of all electronic voting, a 10% automatic recount, very strict security, and NO SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! (...jeez!).

---------------

To give you an idea of the struggle going on at the state/local level over election reform...

See this URGENT ACTION thread re: Diebold in California! (Emails, faxes, calls needed to day!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5410364

Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!



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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. kick
Good prospectus.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. kick.
well said.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
55. kicked again.
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suigeneris Donating Member (471 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
56. I'm a yellow dog Democrat. You
should be too!
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
58. Yawn.
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 10:44 AM by iconoclastNYC
Be sure to repeat this when the establishment blackballs the populist Democratic candidate in the 2008 primary as they did with Dean in 2004.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
59. Ok, i support everyone from Kucinich to Lieberman and then some.
Any candidate, any number of candidates will do.

Thanks for convincing me to do the right thing.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
61. Amen!
I am supporting my guy in the primaries but if he does not get the nomination I will support any of the other Democrat candidate with the nomination. The lack of unity only helps the Republicans.

Great post!
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
62. Thank you
I have seen some vile stuff posted about potential candidates the last two days. The worst was someone claiming that one guy is "ugly." Yup, can't vote for him.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
64. Another recommendation
Thanks.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Great Idea !!!!! LEIBERMAN FOR PRESIDENT!!!!
Everyone on board?? I hope not.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. If the party chooses him in the primaries, I'll support him
He may not rank in my top 10,000 favorite Democrats, but I would support him over any Republican. Solidarity, brothers and sisters.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. He is a republican plant.
Edited on Wed Nov-23-05 01:12 AM by Exiled in America
So what exactly do you win with your solidarity?

Other than slapping women everywhere in the face.

I don't support people becuase they were clever enough to put a (D) after their name. I support people who stand for what's right more often than they dont, whatever they have after their name.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
71. United like we were in 2004?
Cause it sure did not feel good to be behind a candidate I did not believe in. I voted Kerry even though things were not feeling right inside of me, I just did not want Bush to win.

To be honest, I thought our vote was ours and we should honestly vote in the person we believe in.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
72. I've got a better idea.
EARN my unity.

It's not up for grabs to the first taker.

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