'Testostorama 2005'

[bloom]

'Testostorama 2005' doesn't make a strong case for men

by Ted Reuter

The question of the desirability of men was raised by last weekend's "Testostorama 2005" at the Indiana State Fair. Billed as a "celebration of men," the event featured midget wrestling, "elite fighting," the Colts cheerleaders, Miss October, a fashion show, huge screen televisions, poker tables, monster trucks, Harley motorcycles, William "Refrigerator" Perry, a $56,000 Audi sedan, speedboats, foosball tables, huge rims, a spirits bar, smokeless tobacco, loud music, huge couches, hair removal systems, weight lifting equipment, pool tables, power tools, barbecue equipment, a pizza-eating contest, cigar-rolling, biker chicks, plenty of beer and home theater systems (with the motto, "Size Matters!").

Entering the exhibition hall, I was greeted with a huge sign: "Welcome, men. It's safe here; you're among friends." The expo's program assured me that "they can't hurt you anymore. You won't have to hold anyone's purse, run to the corner drugstore for feminine hygiene products or ask how things went at book club." I was in a mystical place, where my dreams of "televised sports, really big speakers and movies with all-female casts" could be met. I was in a world "where recreational vehicles receive homestead exemptions," a place "where we may drink beer and buy power tools in one convenient location." According to the sponsors, my time at Testostorama offered "a day free from the honey-do list, from the chains of matrimonial responsibility. I drank beer and martinis while I shopped for power tools. I fondled sports cars, watched little people wrestle, shopped for general man stuff, and never, not once, did anyone ask me to ask another man for directions."

The hypermasculinity at Testostorama is cause for alarm, not celebration. Excessive testosterone and the macho-industrial complex are linked to aggressive behavior, crime, violence, noise and brutality.

The American male is in crisis. Around 90 percent of rapes, assaults, robberies and murders are committed by males. Girls are surpassing boys in graduation rates, grades, advanced placement exams and college attendance. Boys have higher rates of suicide than girls. More boys than girls are assigned to special education classes.

Also, males may be socially obsolete. Humorist Cynthia Heimel, author of the classic "Sex Tips for Girls," contends that "much of what defines masculinity is now useless. Fighting is out; wars are now bad. There's nothing left to conquer besides outer space, which we can't afford." Therefore, "the skills needed today are feminine: Getting along, sharing, nurturing those weaker and needier than ourselves, communicating, empathizing."

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2005/11/18/column.1118-HT-A6_RSZ31492.sto
(subscription)

[MindPilot]

1. Hear that snapping sound??

Five bucks says this thread will be locked within 10 posts.:eyes:

[bloom]

64. I guess you can send the five bucks

to DU. :)

[Syncronaut Seven]

109. I believe I need my membership re-upped.

:rofl:

[Syncronaut Seven]

2. Locked? Hell.... Nominated!

[bloom]

3. LOL

:)

[Ron Green]

8. Indeed. This is an important discussion.

I believe that feminism, defined as the acceptance of the "feminine" qualities of nurture and empathy into the world of commerce, education and politics, is the logical and necessary evolutionary step of humankind toward a peaceful and harmonious world. The "testosterone festival" and other corporate-driven mainstream diversions are fear-based responses to the pain of the growth of human beings in our culture.

[BJW]

14. No doubt that men are psychically harmed

by commericalization that promotes continuation of over-extended adolescence.

[Ron Green]

17. No doubt -- but that's the Plan, isn't it?

If males can be enslaved into a permanent adolescence, they'll be willing consumers of whatever load of crap the "free market" is shoveling at them, all the while thinking that they're making choices about what light beer to drink or what SUV to drive.

[bloom]

20. Commercial TV is never

going to promote anything like "sustainable living" or creativity.

It's the same for men and women, really. No promoting of the natural look. Everyone is a consumer to be consumed.

[BJW]

40. Too true. I think there's a fair number of men

who really don't like living like they do, and feel pressured by cultural norms to live their lives in an extended consumerist and hyper-sexualized adolescence, but they're either too close to it and can't quite put their finger on what's wrong, and why they're so unhappy and so bitter, so sexually frustrated, and so uber-obsessed with gadgets, toys or sports, or they just don't know other ways of being for lack of exposure and example, or they're surrounded by other men acting out the adolescent sex-obsessed male consumer role model and so feel pressured to go along.

A while ago my hubbie was invited to a bachelor party and the guys went to a strip club. My hubbie said that he just felt weird and gross and uncomfortable the whole f'ing time. Alot of it was that he was really embarassed by how the other guys were behaving and acting, being sexually gross and rude, and saying really crude stuff, and how they kept openly pressuring each other to go have sex with the dancers/prostitutes.

So--yeah, I think this type of cultural modeling hurts everybody.

[SeanQ]

23. Of course, a culture that says men are no longer

relevant or needed wont hurt anyone though, right? :yoiks:

There can never be too much peace or love. And this 'Testoterama' event is certainly ridiculous. But to pretend that the demonization and cultural marginalization of men or masculinity isn't just as harmful as treating women like property and second class citizens is just plain dumb.

We have a lot to learn from each other. We need to learn to celebrate our differences by accentuating the positive, not glorifying the negative. We should support each other, not mock one another.

[Ron Green]

26. I think treating women as property is worse than marginalizing masculinity

For hundreds of thousands of years, men have dominated women overtly and subtly, through physical strength and the ability to run away from children. To marginalize the kind of macho posturing presently identified with the 18-34 male demographic is a small price to pay for raising the consciousness of a world in desperate need of harmony and care.

[BJW]

57. yes, promoting and celebrating these caricatures

is harmful for women who have been victimized by men who are the living embodiments of the angry, dumb, violent and sexually-frustrated adolescent boy-man caricature that's been repeatedly shoved down their throats by TV.

And it's harmful for men too, to be constantly presented with either-or caricatures like this. If you're not that type of guy, well then you're an effete momma's boy and a fairy too.

Celebrating caricatures like this, and encouraging men to act out the uber-adolescent, puts both men and women in no-win situations and harms our relationships and our families.

[RazzleDazzle]

76. What the world desperately needs is an end to the PERVERSION

of masculinity, of the masculine archetype.

Anyone saying men are no longer needed is simply wrong, perhaps delusional. Just as anyone who thinks that our world hasn't been too dominated by masculine values (and distorted/perverted ones at that) and doesn't desperately need more balance in the way of more ascendency for traditional feminine values is simply wrong, perhaps delusional.

[Marr]

82. I agree. Our society promotes a perverted view of masculinity.

I think it's mostly Madison Ave. that does it, to be honest. I grew up in a thouroughly blue collar environment- all the men were diesel mechanics or construction workers of one sort or another.

We all enjoy beer, the outdoors, some have guns, etc.- but there was never the sort of anti-intellectual, juvenile attitude I see embraced on television and in magazines. We talk politics, even with the kids, and some of us even have- believe it or not- library cards. Little boys who are raised by television grow up simply not knowing what it means to be a man. Or even just an adult.

[SeanQ]

99. Duplicate

Sorry

[SeanQ]

100. Exactly!

It's these exaggerated caricatures, both masculine and feminine, that are so destructive to us all.

No, I didn't, and don't, mean to trivialize the fact that women were, in most societies, treated as property for the last few millennium. Or that we are still suffering under a lot of the cultural baggage of that, with a long way to go and a lot of work to do before we sort it out. What I do find troubling though is this either/or option (as someone else just put it) that so many seem to put forth, that seems to say to be a good person you must be feminine, not masculine. But being masculine does not mean being macho, or identifying with that festival of adolescent self-indulgence the OP referred to.

As Marr points out, what being a good, responsible, caring adult male should be has nothing to do with the juvenile attitude our culture force feeds us, which so many people, both male and female (and most tragically, young boys), seem to accept as what it means to be a man or masculine. Leaving young men with the false choice of either trying to live to that absurd caricatures of masculinity, or rejecting it and being spurned as not being a real 'man'. This leaves young men of good conscience tortured as adolescents - they don't want to behave like jerks, but they have so few positive role models in media for any other way to behave.

So, I try to avoid supporting companies that seem to be the worst offenders in perpetuating these negative stereotypes. I try to be a good father and a positive role model for my two boys. I am careful about what they watch (while they are still young enough for me to shield them some), and I volunteer as a youth mentor at my church. I try to point out to my peers (exactly how depending on the person) when they are being rude or demeaning. And occasionally I'm a pain in the ass and buck the trend and urge for a little moderation to feminist zeal. :P I don't like man-bashing any more than I like gay-bashing or women-bashing, and I've never been too worried about not being trendy. :hippie:

[Uncle Joe]

114. I think you hit the nail on the head.

We are rarely referred to as citizens anymore, with all of the requisite responsibilities that it entails. We are now considered consumers first and foremost, the teachings of true honor,duty and dignity are passe. This goes to those great words of advice by "mighty leader" after 9/11, "just go shopping". I believe this applies to women as well, we have truly become a material world. I believe this consumer material world is a Matrix created to enslave us and dumb us down. The problem with only being a consumer society, is that eventually you run out of things to consume. I believe this partially explains the frustration men and women experience in their daily lives, they are afraid of being left out.

[L.A.dweller]

128. The way our Consumer culture shapes feminity

is just as alarming as the way that masculinity is depictedt. Misogyny is a commercial entity. Women are betrayed as being passive objects; their only value is their beauty. "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Woolf points this out.

[mongo]

36. Jees - and here I thought that feminism

was the notion that women are people.

When did it turn from the idea that women should be equal in our society to that we should socially engineer a "feminine" culture of "nurture and empathy"?

[BJW]

46. There's a difference here that you're not getting

Your response mixes apples and oranges.

The "feminist" equal rights movement is to address and resolve historical and culturally enshrined inequalities such as economic freedom, reproductive freedom, educational opportunities and job opportunities, etc. that were due simply to sex-organ differences.

What this poster is discussing is the need to perhaps change the culture itself--which has nothing to do with the equal legal, social and economic rights of citizens.

Now, one can label the needed cultural change as "more feminine" but one can also label it "less aggressive" or "more sustainable" or any number of things. But it has nothing to do whatsoever to do with the fight for equal rights for women.

[mongo]

69. I was not mixing apples and oranges

I was responding to this quote:

I believe that feminism, defined as the acceptance of the "feminine" qualities of nurture and empathy into the world of commerce, education and politics

-----------------------------
What this poster is discussing is the need to perhaps change the culture itself

I am very leary of ALL the culture warriors, on both the right and the left. Insisting that society conform to your views is facsist regardless of which side you are on.

[Ron Green]

72. I'm not insisting that society conform to anything.

But I'm recognizing, or hoping, that we can become better humans over time. No longer do the tittie calendars hang in many workplaces, because men have become more "feminized," or at least more sensitive to the stereotypes that keep them bound in adolescence.

The definition of "feminism" that you cut and pasted is only one. Feminism can also be defined as building opportunities for women in the workplace.

I do believe the culture must be changed, but I think it's a process that comes from within and from a greater understanding of the truth.

[mongo]

80. The definition of "feminism" I posted

was from the post that I was originally replying to.

Hence, my reply.

[BJW]

84. Sure ya are

what else did you mean by "it" then in your original response, if not feminism?

[Lilith Velkor]

60. When those traits were deemed exclusively feminine. n/t

[RazzleDazzle]

78. Stunning,

simply stunning, and accurate response.

[jayctravis]

112. Um...did I miss something?

Sounds like this "testosterone fest" was a simple marketing attempt to advertise to men and get them to shop.

Lots of guys like stereo equipment, cars, tools, stuff like that. Women have spa-days and girlfriend gatherings where they sample candles and potpourri and stuff they like...what's wrong with a gathering for men like this?

I may have missed something completely, forgive me if I have, but I sincerely doubt a car/stereo/poker guy-fest is going to destroy society as we know it.

The "midget" wrestling is perhaps a bit exploitive, but what do you do?

[Crankie Avalon]

4. Wow, that's a lot of overcompensation...

...I didn't know they made closets that big.:hide:

[faithfulcitizen]

5. hey I was there!

well, actually we were at the fair grounds for the gift & hobby show. ;) but hubby and I laughed wen we saw the signs for this show.
...seriously, there was miget wrestling? :eyes:

[bigscott]

6. most of my straight friends

are really into midget 'rasslin - :wtf:

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. G. Gordon Liddy was there stroking his phallic-shaped head

Gordon, Mr. Testosterone run amok.

[Sparkly]

9. How many military recruiters were there?

:shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Damn good question!

Because I'm sure there were more than a few "W" stickers in the parking lot.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bloom]

13. Sounds more homophobic to me.... eom

[Sparkly]

16. I dunno -- sounds femo-phobic to me...

All that stuff about getting away from women. I never understood what was "manly" about that. Like the stereotype of needing to hang out with the guys -- fine, but how is that so often seen as hetero-macho?

[bloom]

18. I guess this sounds like men

who are trying too hard to not be like women. The glorification of masculinity.

Gay men might ignore women - but it's not like they have to be the opposite of women.

[smirkymonkey]

32. Yeah, like the commercialized version of the "He-Man Women

Haters' Club" What are they trying so hard to prove?

[alarimer]

55. I saw a bumper sticker on a truck where I work

"Ditch the Bitch- Let's go fishing".

Sure glad I am not dating/ married to that macho asshole. Unfortunately there are far too many of them (here in deep S. Texas).

One reason I have quit dating altogether is that I am reluctant to be around guys like that.

[BlueIris]

134. I feel that. The not dating men because of fear of/frustrations about

running into too many extremely sexist or totally misogynist males in the process problem, that is. It has been years and years since I've met a man who did display obvious sexist beliefs, (and I live in a blue state for God's sake). It's a real problem.

[alarimer]

137. I think it is because of where I live more than anything

If I lived in a progressive town (like say Austin) I would not have the same opinion probably. But in a heavily conservative place like this, I find that right-winger=sexist asshole almost every time. And since most people in this town are some version of conservative, I have just about given up. Hopefully I will move someplace less conservative in the not so distant future.

[IA_Seth]

61. Pssst...

Lol...just to let you in on a secret..the guys that say they want to "hang out with the guys" are usually the ones that are out with the guys looking for other women...

At least in my experience...but please don't tell anyone, as I may have broken "the code".

[RazzleDazzle]

103. Ahhh, thank you, re "femo-phobic"

That comment reminded me of a superb article that appeared on BuzzFlash some time ago. Unfortunately, the interview is no longer available (so I'm really glad I saved it in its entirety). It was with the author if a book BuzzFlash used as a premium for a while:
The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars, and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity by Stephen J. Ducat
http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/05/02/pre05024.html

While the interview was discussing Republicans, I think some of the points also apply to some of the men here who seem threatened by the thought that women or feminine principles and values might actually achieve a little more prominence in our culture. (It's not as if there's equality for women or feminine principles at this point in our history, so where's the beef? We're not talking about feminine hegemony, not by a long shot.)

From the article:


I saw the Republican National Convention as essentially a hyper-masculine strut-fest. The real point of the convention was to make John Kerry their woman.... They had already done that with John Edwards by dubbing him the “Breck girl.” And Arnold Schwarzenegger went on to proclaim that any men who were anxious about the loss of jobs under the reign of George W. Bush were, as he put it, “economic girlie-men.” The inference was that Democratic candidates who were always whining about pink slips may as well be wearing pink slips.

snip

Part of the reason is that this type of masculinity is defined largely in terms of domination. The problem is that domination--either in a personal or a global context---can never be a permanent condition. It’s a relational state. It’s dependent on having somebody in a subordinate position. That means you could be manly today, but you’re not going to be manly tomorrow unless you’ve got somebody to push around and control, whether that is an abused wife or another country.

So obviously, hypersensitive masculinity, whether on the left or the right, always requires someone "one down," as the saying goes, a job and role women have filled for millennia, by both force and by choice, and many men, including some here, want them to continue to fill.


BuzzFlash: In your book, The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars, & the Politics of Anxious Masculinity, you argue that the current positions and attitudes of the Republican Party and Bush Administration can best be viewed through a certain lens that we traditionally associate with the he-man, the virile figure--you call it the phallus. Briefly, how would you define "anxious masculinity?"

Stephen J. Ducat: It's a culture based on male domination and a culture in which most things feminine tend to be devalued, even if they are secretly envied. In such a culture, the most important thing about being a man is not being a woman. This powerful adult male imperative to be unlike females and to repudiate anything that smacks of maternal care taking is played out just as powerfully in politics as it is in personal life. In fact, political contests among men are in many ways the ultimate battles for masculine supremacy. This makes disavowing the feminine in oneself and projecting it onto one’s opponent to be especially important. This femiphobia--this male fear of being feminine--operates unconsciously in many men as a very powerful determinant of their political behavior.

snip


BuzzFlash: To cooperate, then, is to give up one’s masculine prerogative to assert oneself as a male leader?

Stephen J. Ducat: Absolutely. In the world they live in, you’re either a top or a bottom. Mutuality, democracy, equality--that makes no sense to them.

BuzzFlash: Well, as Jon Stewart said recently in the context of the John Gannon/Jeff Guckert scandal in Washington, if you’re on top, you’re not gay. That may explain the inner circle acceptance of gays within the Republican Party, in spite of the gay-bashing national political line they give to their followers.

Stephen J. Ducat: The Republican homosexuals are not only honorary heterosexuals; they become honorary homophobes, as the most recent scandal illustrated.

This is such a good article. It also helps explain why Hillary brings out such misogynism from the right, why both her popularity and Bill's actually went up with the Lewinsky scandal, something of the nature of rightwing women like Ann Coulter, why Bush uses so many women in his inner circle (Condi Rice) and more. It's a real disappointment it is no longer available on the BuzzFlash site.

[BJW]

15. Sounds super-adolescent to me

[BJW]

12. Sounds like adolescent men--not real men

were being "celebrated." If I was a man, I'd be really po'd at this, and also start loudly objecting to those god-awful beer commercials that repeatedly have "storylines" about how the little boy-man keeps trying to pull one over on his mean mommy-wife. Makes me sick!

[MindPilot]

22. The man who has to pull one over on his "mean-mommy wife" is

a (insert word I can't use on DU here) for even having a "mommy-wife" in the first place. If she's mean, it makes him even more of a (insert word I can't use on DU here)

The ones I really hate are the Carl's Jr commercials which portray the man as an ignorant slug incapable of preparing his own meals. Then there's the genre wherein the aforementioned ignorant slug needs the woman to introduce him to the product or service he so stupidly failed to use.

[BJW]

28. Another man-bash theme I HATE

are the commercials that have the stupid little boy-man and his stupid little boy-man buddy being dropped off by the bemused, intelligent and mature mommy-wife so they're free to check out the tools and other guy stuff! Yick!

[jayctravis]

113. Um...I like tools and stereo equipment and cars...

and I'd much rather look at that than clothes.

I don't consider that stereotypical or repressive of the male gender.

[BJW]

120. it's not about products--it's the themes

in these commercials about expected roles--women play the patronizing or mean mommies and men play the bad or sneaky little boys. These posts have nothing to do with stereotyping people based on their like or dislike of various products--it's about the damaging messages used in the commercials about how grown men and women are "supposed" to behave.

[MindPilot]

19. DUers never miss the opportunity to man-bash.

Yes, dear, whatever you say dear. I'm just a socially obsolete man. No, I don't need the remote, I used my manly technical skills to permanently set the TV on the Lifetime channel. If you need me, I'll be out nurturing the car.

I'm a man and proud of it.

[BJW]

29. never mind....

deleted...

[Lilith Velkor]

62. Yes, take pride in it

Wow, you really told off that hypothetical female stereotype, didn't you?

How manly! :sarcasm:

[RazzleDazzle]

104. He doesn't quite realize

how unflatteringly self-revealing his little rant was, does he?

tsk, tsk

[MindPilot]

106. Would you care to elaborate on exactly what was revealed?

And please, keep it simple since I'm just a stupid socially obsolete man.

[MindPilot]

111. Yes, I did. Now get your sarcastic little butt back in the kitchen,

and make me a sandwich. :sarcasm:

[readmoreoften]

127. heh

my girlfriend's butcher than you are sucka. heh. no :sarcasm:

[Marr]

87. Hahaha! "Nurturing the car".

That's a good one.

[ismnotwasm]

21. Ok, someone explain to me

What "midget wrestling" has to do with masculinity or testosterone?
I love the sound of a Harley as much as the next motorcycle enthusiast, but lately many HD owners appear to be aging yuppies. I'm kind of sad to see it since I remember the days when a Harley represented rebellion. Don't like "matrimonial responsibility"? Don't get married.
And who the hell says men can't have power tools? I have a few myself. There are not difficult to operate (Yes I'm a women) and make some of my home projects much easier.
This all sounds very strange and manipulative. I suggest next time these guys skip the tetostorama and just plan on heading out to Sturgis next year.
That or watch Fight Club. Jesus what idiocy.

And Men don't need to buy into that bullshit on what defines masculinity-- "fighting, wars" etc. What crap. Check out any VA hospital and count the PTSD sufferers. I was a scraper when I was younger myself. Sports cars? That is the exclusive domain of men? Well excuse me. I'll let my women friends who drive them know that. Oh, and remind them not to drink beer since that is also evidently a masculine pursuit.
None of that shit defines Masculinity to me. I have a male friend who is a harley rider, , a vet, and works as a plumber. Very masculine persona. He's also an artist and a woodworker. Very talented.

By the way for those who are interested. Testosterone levels drop with age. See your doctor for details.

[SeanQ]

101. Thank you!!!

[ErisFiveFingers]

133. The First Rule of Fight Club...

1. Don't talk about fight club.

Seriously, the whole event is so *anti* Fight club it's astounding. For those who have only had a superficial exposure to the movie, Fight club was about a guy giving up all the stupid materialistic crap that "defined" him, shredding the social power structure, mocking bizarre charactures of masculine physique, trying to find a new perspective on masculinity that wasn't... erm... emasculating, and eventually the protagonist realized that he/they had to rediscover and reclaim his own identity, his own sense of self.

I keep a copy of it on my video shelf next to a copy of "Female Perversions", a similarly themed (though *totally* different in tone and content) movie about finding a new perspective and identity WRT femininity. People tend to love it or loathe it... much like fight club.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

24. Err...

Isn't there a saying somewhere that says "True men suffer in silence"? Not that people shouldn't be vocal about it, but it seems pretty un-testosterone to me to run and hide from a bunch of women...

And midget wrestling? O.o I think this is more "Small men make themselves feel bigathon".

[Arianrhod]

25. This is not a description of manhood.

It's the American caricature of manhood. It's the Tim-Allenization of society.

American civilization has descended to a point where we can't even recognize parody when we live it.

[bloom]

27. It's interesting to think about how men were

in movies from the 20's, 30's, 40's, etc.

Seemed quite feminine compared to the leading men nowadays.

I have this idea that in the past - intellectual pursuits were more valued.

What happened to that?

[SomewhereOutThere424]

31. " "What happened to that?"

the boom in alcohol perhaps.

[bloom]

33. I think alcohol

has always been with us.

It seems like we're going downhill (as a civilization) with the rise in commercialism. There has never been anything like it. I'm rather pessimistic about it, myself.

[RazzleDazzle]

105. What went wrong? Two things, I think

One, read the excerpts in my earlier post.

Two, I had coincidentally happened across this article earlier today:

Childhood abuse and the role it plays in maintaining coercive power
by Herb Ruhs, MD, June 9, 2005
http://www.unknownnews.net/050611d-609Herb.html

In these "conquest and rule" societies, the myths surrounding "childhood" serve the purpose of concealing the most important function of child-rearing in the militaristic society, in fact, the true lynchpin of their militarism.

In militaristic societies, abuse of children is institutionalized. Child abuse, in its various guises, is the means for "breaking" members of society to the rule of authority. Basically, it turns out to be hard to get happy people, the result of happy childhoods, to gratuitously kill on command. In fact, it is the express purpose of military training to so abuse new young recruits (children actually) that any results of kind childhoods are muted or destroyed (see Full Metal Jacket). Virtually all of us in the militarized societies, particularly in the West, are perseverating about our personal abuse histories. A whole industry has grown up around the need to "heal" adults who were abused as children.

But there is a missing piece that makes a true understanding of our experience impossible to achieve. Our abuse was not an "accident" of nature, the result of having a "bad" parent or even an essentially private and shameful thing. It was preordained, a part of the cultural script.

snip

Another misleading aspect of the myth making is that "child abuse" is something that occurs primarily in the home. Many of the child's harmful interactions with adults in militaristic societies that are so routine as to be outside of conscious awareness, are invisible. The effects of emotional maltreatment are cumulative, with frequent small insults to the stability of the child having the same influence as more isolated horrendous experiences such as Miss Simard's.

A "perfect home" with home schooling and "faultless child rearing" ("perfection" itself being a destructive concept) can not displace or repair the peripheral effects of a culture steeped in violence. There is no total escape for the child. However, healing can occur in adulthood, once awareness of the nature of the trauma is achieved.

[smirkymonkey]

34. Really? To me they seemed more masculine.

They were men who were comfortable with their manhood and didn't have to resort to distorted caricatures of what it means to be a man to prove it.

Gregory Peck comes to mind as a leading man who was very masculine, yet balanced.

[bloom]

35. That's what I mean...

that they weren't distorted caricatures - but maybe the women were more.

[Ron Green]

43. BALANCE is the key, as in so many other things in life.

Today's marketing-driven "hyper macho" posture indicates a failure to escape from an adolescence in which boys have to stick together and keep girls out of the clubhouse, unless the girls take off their clothes and dance around a pole. Yesterday's pre-feminism man had condescending respect for women. The job for men today is to find the courage to grow up from adolescent posturing, and have faith that their dicks won't fall off in doing so.

[SeanQ]

102. Hah!!

"The job for men today is to find the courage to grow up from adolescent posturing, and have faith that their dicks won't fall off in doing so."

:rofl:

[smirkymonkey]

117. True, men need to stop equating adolescent behavior w/ masculinity.

If you ask me, it has nothing to do with being a man, and everything to do with a fear of growing up. In some way, they don't want to cut the apron strings so they have to project "mommy" onto all the women in thier lives - somebody who is going to tell them "no" and make them eat their vegetables.

There is nothing sexier than a real man, however they are getting increasingly hard to find. Women are getting fed up with being turned into their lovers' mommies and keepers.

[ismnotwasm]

37. Rambo

And it's ilk. The super hero archetype somehow while fighting evil, became a violence-fest. I believe men became confused with the constant media barrage. Remember when the media tried to present the "Alan Alda" male? And it became a joke? The Real men don't eat Quiche crap? Then it was men don't have feelings, or don't want to talk about them, but women, of course want to talk about them ALL THE TIME--which is bullshit. The Feminist became the feminazi. Feminists and feminist issues were either ignored, or turned into bad jokes. Anita Hill comes to mind. Completely marginalized. Men through careful media manipulation, began to fear emasculation. Women were to blame, of course-- the garden of eden all over again.
We are constantly being told what constitutes the feminine and the masculine. Rarely are we reminded that we share many of the same traits.
Men can be strong and masculine without being abusive or destructively juvenile.

[MindPilot]

47. Oh yeah, men are all so frickin' stupid that we are just putty

in the hands of a malignant media.

Fact is the media portrays just the opposite in many shows and especially commercials. Men are are Homer Simpson-esqe fools who need a woman to bail them out of trouble over and over.

What you are seeing is the backlash to the "pussification" of the American male. We are re-taking our manhood.

[BJW]

52. Yeah, but the "backlash" as described here

is truly counter-productive in that it's not any sort of "backlash" that is positive, but instead it is promoting even more of a caricature of manhood.

It is a celebration of the archetype of the hyper-sexualized, ignorant, cruel and over-extended adolescent male that we see presented as the norm for men and that is repeated ad nauseum in commercials and sitcoms? Yes?

[ismnotwasm]

58. But in what way?

What do you mean by manhood? I don't think men are stupid, and I'm sorry I gave that impression. "Pussification?" What the hell is that? I have some very tough guy friends. Tattooed former bankrobbers that did a lot prison time. Really. Is that "masculine"? I grew up around outlaw biker gangs. Is that what you mean? I'll take your pussification and raise you one if you want some tough guy stories. I'll throw in a couple of tough gal stories if you like.
Perhaps you are refering to the sheltered middle class male who has lost his ability to define himself in that homer-simpson-esqe atmophere. I have sympathy for that.

[Solon]

66. That is perhaps the dumbest thing I read on this thread...

No offense, but what are we retaking are manhood from again? No offense, but if you look at the history of television, at least in this country, you find that Homer Simpson was NOT original. Look at the Honeymooners, the Dick Van Dyke show, my Three Sons, etc. etc. People in this culture particularly, enjoy seeing the "man of the house" as making mistakes, because, to be honest, they seen it themselves. This has little to do with the "pussification" of the American Male, as if that ever happened, and more to do with what is and is not popular, especially in sitcoms for crying out loud. Its not like these shows are produced by women, 90% of them were made by men for men, oddly enough. I mean seriously, who doesn't get a laugh out of Tim Allen smashing his thumb with a hammer?

[alcibiades_mystery]

70. Those Homer Simpsonesque shows are much more damaging to women

Everybody Loves Raymond, Home Improvement, King of Queens, the million and one shows that portray the man as a buffoon, fully dependent on the woman of the household for common sense and day-to-day living: you think these are damaging to men?

In the context in which women do not only their working jobs outside the home, but, on average, the super-majority of household and family work as well? All the affective labor of the household? You don't see how these shows try to cover these actual material conditions of women's labor in our society with merely symbolic victories? But you're upset about the symbolic victory?

:rofl:

[MindPilot]

110. Women do all a "super-majority" of work around the house?!

don't hand me that tired old stereotype.

Every man I know cooks, cleans, and takes care of the kids in addition to all those home and vehicle maintenance chores that most women either can't or won't do.

[alcibiades_mystery]

125. OK

I'll take your "every man I know" over every study to come out of the social sciences in the last 30 years. Oh wait. No I won't.

[RazzleDazzle]

107. No you're not

You're deluding yourself if you think that aligning yourself with the rightwing backlash against women and feminism is equivalent to taking your manhood back. Or if you think that "taking your manhood back" is even an appropriate approach to whatever you think ails you or society.

You have been victimized in exactly the same ways, tho in the obverse, that women have been victimized by patriarchy. Until you and enough other men to actually matter understand what you've given up in the process of being conned into feeling superior by colluding in making and keeping women inferior, how perverted your "manhood" actually is under patriarchy, you're destined to be their willing, duped pawns for another millennia or two.

You have to find and recreate your Authentic Masculinity, which is something quite different than most men's puny image of manhood. The world needs both the Authentic Feminine and the Authentic Masculine desperately.

Women turned to the ancient Goddess lore to begin to develop some understanding of the Authentic Feminine, and there's been a concommitant movement among some more introspective, less reactionary and certainly less threatened men as well. For those who are able to take a more illumined, evolved approach, this is definitely worth exploring. In doing so, they will find, if they find the right resource materials, that the two sexes complement and support one another quite beautifully and naturally in their authentic versions.

Here's a google search page which no doubt has good along with the bad:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Authentic+Masculine&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

As I look at some of the sites listed, I'm reminded that this pursuit of the Authentic Feminine and the Authentic Masculine is essentially a spiritual pursuit (spiritual, not religious), which is another desperate need before we succeed in killing the planet for want of it.

[MindPilot]

108. Looks a little too on the woo-woo side for me

I don't see myself sitting in a circle passing the stick and banging the drum as real relevent to day to day life.

[RazzleDazzle]

118. Why, of course

Just dismiss the concept out of hand. Couldn't be anything there that could be of the least bit of interest or value to you, could there? Nah, you're fine just the way you are: a manly man, busy taking back your manhood.

We get it.

I hope you read the quotes in my first post in this thread.

[mongo]

124. He's obviously NOT OK

He needs a WOMAN to tell him how to live...

[L.A.dweller]

131. Taking your cue from Tom Leykis

and Stern?

[MindPilot]

38. could it be that feminism has devalued mens' intellectual pursuits?

The writer of the article (who quite curiously is a man--I assume Ted is a man) spells it right in the quote about space exploration, "...we can't afford that." What could be more intellectual than space travel? What could be more necessary to the advancement of the human race? But it's just dismissed and minimized as boys and their toys.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

42. Why reach for the stars

When we've only begun to walk the earth? We know more about the solar system than we do about the ocean, and there's plenty of things that money can go towards. Such as sustaining the world we live on.

I don't think feminism has devalued mens' intellectual pursuit. I think that the constant comparison of a man to a woman, or a woman to a man, is what's doing it. We are individuals...in whole and reason. We should do good because we're us, not because we're a man or a woman.

[ismnotwasm]

44. No

Feminism partly is about sharing intellectual pursuits. Why is space travel the provence of men? Are you talking about the little boy who dreams of being an astronaut, while the little girl dreams of being a ballerina? Isn't it better that both can dream of being either? (Ballerina's are tough and in shape)

[BJW]

49. Actually I think the Repug Meme about

effete ivory tower liberal intellectualism has done ALOT of damage in discouraging intellectual thought--for men and for women.

[L.A.dweller]

129. Ironic, considering repubs descend from the

same elite ivory towers.

[bloom]

67. Learning about space...

The Hubble Telescope and all is great...

And then you have:

Imagine space with a blanket of orbiting surveillance equipment and space weapons, particle-beam and laser devices, rockets and missile launchers. . . . With this ‘full spectrum dominance’, it would be possible to apply force locally and instantly, to choose just that level of pain deemed appropriate, and to do so with impunity. It would mark the end of local sovereignty and much of human dignity.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/VAL206A.html


That is what I'm talking about- the PNAC culture that includes entitled Frat Boys who have no concept of the greater good - and only concepts of looking out for themselves and maybe a few of their friends.

It also the culture - on a different level - of those at the 'Testostorama 2005' - encouraging people to go along with that whole way of thinking. Like who needs "human dignity" when you've got midget wrestling?

[BiggJawn]

94. Well, I don't think we CAN afford space travel.

$3,000 a SECOND going into the Iraq Shithole, kids hungry, people going to be homeless in weeks because some ass-hat at FEMA says "Oops! Timne's up for your 'luxury' hotel room!", Heating fuel so damn expensive it won't be long until it's cheaper to burn vodka...

Fix the social problems that are turning America into some third-world hell-hole called "Murka" THEN we can talk about going to Mars...

Put it in a smaller perspective. Would it be right to continue your ballet and pottery lessons when your kids are missing meals and you're getting your utilities shut off?
I don't think so.

[Lilith Velkor]

48. Television.

It gave the masses charicatures to emulate.

[BJW]

30. Perfect Analysis!

[triguy46]

39. Did James Dobson have his father-son showers set up?

This dork has suggested that to 'prevent' sons from becoming gay, they need to shower with adult men and see adult penises, therefore becoming strengthened in their maleness. this would seem to have been a fitting activity for this group.

I don't make this shit up, its really a part of his raising 'healthy' families programs.

[Cats Against Frist]

41. Interesting

We have the following social problems, wrapped up in "man's world:"

SUV pollution
violence
substance abuse
consumerism
gluttony
tastelessness (wrestling midgets???)
objectification of women/unrealistic body image
building stuff

Now, let's review that which they'd sterotypically put at a womens' expo:

Make up & clothes
Perfumes & toiletries
Motherhood Items
Figurines, Teddy Bears and Lace
Knitting, Sewing and other domestic hobbies
Cooking & Baking
Home decorating: candles, picture frames, crafts, etc.

So we have:

Primping up for guys
Pampering ourselves
Caring for children
Collecting icons of fantasy/bygone eras, because man's world is so shitty
handicrafting
feeding people
transforming the home into "the trace," (Benjamin)

While some of those values don't mean much to me, it's telling that the "sterotypes," have such different narratives behind them.

I don't think all men are like "testo-world," at all -- even the jerks. I've seen the biggest asshole that I've ever met put together the best five-course meal that I've ever eaten. Similarly, my own boyfriend is the biggest fucking wuss on the planet, and he's an asshole.

That said, there is a disturbingly large number of men whose interests lie in the testo-dome, and go no further. They might not even be assholes. However, this shit is just dumb and passe, and I really have very little respect for men who participate in it, AND, I have little respect for men that expect me to be powdered and shaven. Lucky for them, I love knitting and baking, and raising children, but I'm not a home decorator or interested in "keeping up with the Joneses."

Anyway, this whole thing is disturbing. And I don't hate men, but I hate this narrative.

Edited to add: I should exclude the tools and the building stuff. I would find NOTHING more sexy than the man that's mixing up biodiesel, or arranging my solar panels. I have not found him, yet.

[MindPilot]

56. If everything that's wong with the world is men's fault....

it's probably because men built it. Every building, bridge, road, and modern convenience you enjoy was probably thought up designed and built by a man.

Next time you have a clogged up sewer pipe and you call a plumber, chances are real good a man will show up. Chances are also very good that nurturing and caring will not be among the tools he uses to make your bathroom work again.

You want to live in a manless world, then start by getting the hell off your computer, because it was invented and built by a man.

On Edit, since you excluded the "tools and building stuff" I rescind some of my vitriol. BTW, if your boyfriend is a wuss AND an asshole, why are not out looking for that solar panel installer?

[Cats Against Frist]

59. I never said everything wrong with the world is mens' fault

For fuck's sake -- I didn't come close to saying that. Much of womens' pursuits are toward vanity, waste and social mobility, which I find every bit as appauling.

I don't want to live in a manless world. I want all of us to stop becoming these awful consumerist charicatures. You can fix a fucking toilet, without having to spank it to Paris Hilton, watch midget wrestling and badmouth your "old lady." Same as you can bake a loaf of bread, in a kitchen that's not decorated in apples & dolls, stripped of high heels and with in-tact body hair.

It's all stupid. I like men just fine. I hate that narrative -- and I don't think it has to go along with masculinity. It is, as some above posters said, a way to trap us in an expanded adolescence, so we keep buying dumb shit.

[Ron Green]

63. Right, it's just more "us vs. them" to keep people in a state of fear and

consumerism. If men fear falling short of a marketed masculine caricature, or if women are worried that they're not "alluring" enough, they're all sitting ducks for marketers.

If we agree that there is a masculine and a feminine side to each of us, then sustainability, which is the real salvation of humankind, lies in the proper development of those roles in a way that allows procreation and care of new humans. The corporate, free-market model isn't working in this way.

[mongo]

65. Well, personally

I like to spank it to Paris Hilton while fixing the toilet. :sarcasm:

I liked your original post -- we do make stereotypes out of both men and women -- although I don't want to make the same value judgements that other posters have in this thread.

[Lilith Velkor]

68. It makes cleanup easier that way

Very efficient. :thumbsup:

[mongo]

75. It's more that Paris Hilton

makes me vomit -- but "that's hot"...

[bloom]

73. I don't like the stereotypical

"this is what women are supposed to like"/"spend their money on", either.

It has nothing to do with me.

And I especially hate that the stereotypical meme that we are supposed to be vain about ourselves for the benefit of the stereotypical 'Testostorama' kind of man. Are they out of their friggin' minds? That's what I'm thinking.

And as someone else mentioned - the 'Testostorama' is not attractive to me - and weirdly - it seems that that image seems to be trying to be "anti-attractive" or even repulsive - to women (hence the gay comment).

I think the whole thing is bizarre.

[mongo]

85. Gee - and I thought the stereotype of women being vain

was to promote the idea that women should use sex as a bargaining chip to marry the person who will make them the most financialy secure.

To make yourself the most alluring to compete with other women for the best men on the market.

[bloom]

89. Who needs that - these days?

With women who are financially secure without men?

So why bother with Botox and all that makeup and nonsense?

It's just whatever someone can sell you - for no particular reason.

Of course you are in the business of selling sex - so that all probably makes sense to you - or you would promote it anyway - regardless of the motivation.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

45. Lighten up

It was just an (admittedly sophomoric) way to try and sell stuff.

Keep the real issues in sight: gender discrimination and harassment, glass ceilings, fundamentalism and religious subjugation of women, etc.

And your statement "males may be socially obsolete" is offensive and ridiculous and not even supported by the quote. And then there's the completely unrelated issue of making such a sweeping generalization by citing a "humorist."

[triguy46]

51. Well, I feel pretty socially obsolete: balding, 50 something...

you won't find me listed among the "most desired" of any womens list.

BTW, remember when playmates used to list their most desired trait in a man? I think that would nail down one end of the desirability scale...

[Ex Lion Tamer]

83. Well, I'm married and not at all interested in cheating . . .

but don't feel socially obsolete just because I'm not in the dating pool.

[bloom]

54. That was Ted Reuter who said "males may be socially obsolete"

DId you go to 'Testostorama 2005'? - I see you're from Indianapolis.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

81. No but . . .

I passed it on my way to the Christmas show--I met my wife there.

I actually wanted to go to Testosterama: I like shiny stuff. And I'm quite well adjusted nevertheless. :)

[mongo]

50. I don't even know what to say to this

Except that the author uses this stereo-type consumer hype fest as a means to bash men in the process.

Testosterone is DANGEROUS!

[BJW]

53. Hey Mongo read the thread

instead of reacting to just the initial post. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[mongo]

71. Well, I'm not going to pay to read the article

but I would describe several quotes in this thread as deriding masculinity

The "testosterone festival" and other corporate-driven mainstream diversions are fear-based responses to the pain of the growth of human beings in our culture.

cultural norms to live their lives in an extended consumerist and hyper-sexualized adolescence, but they're either too close to it and can't quite put their finger on what's wrong, and why they're so unhappy and so bitter, so sexually frustrated, and so uber-obsessed with gadgets, toys or sports, or they just don't know other ways of being for lack of exposure and example, or they're surrounded by other men acting out the adolescent sex-obsessed male consumer role model and so feel pressured to go along.

yes, promoting and celebrating these caricatures is harmful for women who have been victimized by men who are the living embodiments of the angry, dumb, violent and sexually-frustrated adolescent boy-man caricature that's been repeatedly shoved down their throats by TV.

I guess this sounds like men who are trying too hard to not be like women. The glorification of masculinity.

Men through careful media manipulation, began to fear emasculation. Women were to blame, of course-- the garden of eden all over again.

The common theme is that masculinity is adolescent or violent and femininity is the only thing that will save us all.

[bloom]

77. Sociologists

do connect a hyper-masculinity with violence. And 'Testostorama 2005' seemed to be partly about the glorification of violence and the rejection of anything relating to compassion.

See this if you're interested:

http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/faculty/scheff/20a.html

[mongo]

88. So, men are violent creatures that need to be contained? n/t

[bloom]

91. It's not like all men are violent or have to be violent...

How does isolation from the e/r world translate into violence?

There are several studies that suggest a somewhat counter-intuitive answer to this question. These studies propose that the management of one particular emotion, shame, is crucial. They propose that men are particularly socialized to suppress this emotion: the sense of being weak, inadequate, powerless, helpless, impotent, or incompetent. Rather than experience these painful feelings or let others see them undergoing them, men usually become blank or angry. Shame itself is harmless, indeed, necessary. Shame is a prime component of conscience, modesty, and morality. It becomes a problem only if covered over. That is, one ingredient of violence, its incredible energy, is produced by masking shame with blankness or anger....

Lewis was both a research psychologist and a practicing psychoanalyst at the time of her first study of shame (1971). One of her major contributions is the idea that shame is inherently a social emotion. Her formulation was bio-social: human beings are social by biological inheritance. That is, she saw shame as an instinct that has the function of signaling threats to the social bond. Just as the instinctual emotion of fear signals danger to life and limb, shame also signals a potential threat to survival, especially for an infant, threat to a social bond. In this same vein, Kaufman (1989) proposed that shame dynamics form the interpersonal bridge that connects individuals who would otherwise be isolated.

http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/faculty/scheff/20a.html

I think the idea is that men need to work at not repressing shame, etc. Be willing to admit to weakness - work at forming social bonds - that sort of thing.

P.S. I expect that would be social bonds that are more like nurturing types of bonds than your "frat boy" kind of bond. More like being a part of a family/society.

[mongo]

95. Be careful where you tread

The "shame is good" meme occurs frequently in far right Xtian culture warrior propaganda too.

[bloom]

97. The writer I referred to

who - if you can catch his lecture on UCTV - or find it online - Scheff "Emotions and Politics"

http://www.uctv.tv/watch / has good, liberal anti-war credentials. http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/faculty/scheff/

It is possible to be a liberal atheist and have morals, also. And to be a man, too, hey!

Robert Jensen is another good example of a liberal anti-war man that isn't afraid to say that some things are good and some things are bad.

I'm sure there are thousands - and quite a few on DU - as well.

[Arianrhod]

79. I think masculinity and femininity are illusions.

This obsession with a dichotomy that doesn't really exist on a deeper plane is a symptom of humanity's loss of recognition of our true nature. The masculine/feminine distinction is largely cultural in essence. A woman sits just so, while a man sits in freedom. Ludicrous nonsense, based on nothing but cultural "norms" of dress and a neurotic need to validate a particular way of being that has been imposed upon us from birth, evidence for which cannot be found in biology.

That people's opinions are "derisive" of one sex or the other is an indication of how far from the truth we have fallen.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

We need to see beyond the veil.

[BJW]

86. like I said--read the thread

[RazzleDazzle]

122. Some forms of masculinity deserve derision

Just as some types of "femininity" deserve derision.

You're not going to win any contests or debates by trying to defend all of the fucked up ways some men and some women behave as men and women, respectively, on this planet.

See some of my other posts for further information. (I'll not hold my breath.)

The common theme is that masculinity is adolescent or violent and femininity is the only thing that will save us all.

No, the common theme is that there are forms of masculinity that are thoroughly rooted in a particularly adolescent and/or testosterone-poisoned violent strain as well. These versions of masculinity are bad for society, bad for both women and men, bad for the planet.

You can ask just about any therapist and get roughly the same answer. Or do you not believe in psychology and therapy either? Some men consider it too feminizing.

[mongo]

126. "testosterone-poisoned"?

If I blamed a woman's problem on estrogyn abundance, I'd get booted off DU. I don't think that pointing out the inherant sexism in some people's posts in this thread and the double standard DU has when it comes to sexism.

It's Ok to call someone a prick or a dick but not the "C" word, oh no, that's BAAAAAAAAD. Words have power, right?

WTF. I get from your posts you at least lean Wiccan, but you don't seem to acknowledge the God at all. Real Wicca is about balance, the male and female in union. This is the great rite.

Look at what you said:
These versions of masculinity are bad for society, bad for both women and men, bad for the planet.

Are you any more qualified to tell me what "masculinity" is or should be than I am to tell a woman what "feminism" is?

[bloom]

138. "Men and violence: do you have a problem with that?"

Men and violence: do you have a problem with that?

Written by Ciaran Mulholland, consultant psychiatrist/senior lecturer in mental health

A man's world

Violence is a common feature of most societies. Statistically, we know that it's predominantly a male characteristic, particularly one of young males. In England and Wales for example, more than 90 per cent of violent offenders are male, and half of those are aged between 17 and 24. So why are men, and particularly young men, so prone to acts of violence? ...

Chemical reaction

So, if violent acts are not simply the result of frustration due to external stimuli, perhaps we need to look at the human body (particularly the male body) itself for clues. There has been much controversy as to the role of male hormones in aggression. Some argue that testosterone predisposes men to aggression. This has been borne out in part by studies that show that men who abuse steroids while bodybuilding are more aggressive and explosive than those who do not.

It is beyond argument that men have more testosterone in their circulation than females and that men are more aggressive. Typically, males produce about 25 times as much testosterone per day as females. Male testosterone levels peak in the late teens and remain high until the mid-20s: precisely the time in which male aggressiveness and violence is most common.

Immediate social group

The influence of the immediate social group is very important. This can be seen in the case of football hooligans, angry crowds or young men out at night drinking in groups, where the aggression may merely take the form of posturing or may turn to actual violence. An individual's behaviour in the group may owe more to the effect of the group pressure than to his own experience.

Social circumstances

A child who suffers repeated trauma might grow up to be an adult who is impulsively angry and aggressive. It may be that the body produces stress hormones at an excessive rate in these circumstances, and so the individual is constantly in a state of 'hair-trigger' alert. There is evidence that crime, including violent crime, decreases in times of economic prosperity and increases in times of recession.

There is also evidence that violent crime becomes less common when society is more cohesive and nurturing. It is probable that the intensely competitive nature of Western societies leads to increased aggression and violence, especially among those who do not prosper.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/feature/men_and_violence.htm

(That Doctor recommends yoga). :)

Agression and Violence - the Neurobiology of Experience

By Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.

The brain's impulse-mediating capacity is related to the ratio between the excitatory activity of the lower, more-primitive portions of the brain and the modulating activity of higher, sub-cortical and cortical areas (Cortical Modulation Ratio). Any factors which increase the activity or reactivity of the brainstem (e.g., chronic traumatic stress, testosterone, dysregulated serotonin or norepinephrine systems) or decrease the moderating capacity of the limbic or cortical areas (e.g., neglect) will increase an individual's aggressivity, impulsivity, and capacity to display violence.

http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/aggression_violence.htm

The testosterone connection

There is an extreme fluctuation of hormonal balance in men between the ages of 18 and 40 years of age, but is there a correlation between testosterone and violence?

James Dabbs with the help of his students conducted several studies between 1987 and 2001 that considered a variety of different situations that would evaluate the relationship between testosterone and violent behavior. The first study compared the testosterone levels of over fifteen hundred male inmates between the ages of 18 and 22 years of age. The study took approximately six years to complete. The inmates were invited to participate in the study, which would attempt to identify testosterone levels and it's relationship to behavior. The men were encouraged to chew a piece of gum and spit into a vial. The testosterone level would be determined by the saliva sample at the lab. Once all of the participants had contributed and a reasonable sample had been obtained, the lab began to document the specific testosterone levels of each of the participants. The levels were then charted on a graph and an average level of testosterone was determined. The numbers were then separated into groups of high levels, normal levels, and low levels of testosterone. The results were further ranked in order of level within the group so there would be both a high and low testosterone level in the high group, a high and low testosterone level in the normal group and a high and low testosterone level in the low group. The records of the inmate were then evaluated (no one knew the offence the inmate had committed until then). The results were very interesting; the inmates who had the higher levels of testosterone had committed more violent crimes against persons.

The higher the level of testosterone, the more gruesome the crime. Lower levels of testosterone were consistent with non-violent crimes. In addition they discovered that the inmates who had higher levels of testosterone had violated more prison rules and were serving extended sentences for crimes during incarceration.

The study was repeated in a woman's correctional institution and although the overall testosterone levels were lower the ratio of increased aggression to testosterone was the same with the higher levels signaling more violent crimes and lower levels were associated with non violent crimes.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3940/is_200308/ai_n9242408

[mongo]

139. Hold on sweetie - I wasn't talking to you

I thought you had your turn -- Oh right, you over emotional women just never know when to quit.

But as long as you're here -- this one's for you

http://www.pennherb.com/pennherb/info/scan83.html

Description: Progestone-HP™ is a scientifically advanced, pleasant to use, moisturizing cream for young women who are experiencing PMS symptoms. Many women have found it to be very beneficial during the years just before menopause. Progestone-HP™ is the original phyto-hormone cream developed in 1979 to relieve PMS thru menopausal symptoms. It contains 1,995mg or 3.5% of Wild Mexican Yam Extract in an aloe base which can be absorbed through the skin. It provides the building blocks the body needs to fight stress, stabilize moods, eliminate hot flashes, dryness and numerous feminine complaints.

:sarcasm:

But it's not so nice when the shoe is on the other foot, is it?

[bloom]

140. Actually

that could be useful stuff - you never know.

Yoga does wonders for that - also.


I don't deny having hormones. That would be silly.

(I did enjoy that Maureen Dowd comment about men having a problem with them every day, though :) ).

[Javaman]

74. Sorry, but I'm far from obsolete...

As long as my 5'0" girlfriend needs something off the top shelf or needs something very heavy from the car or tap into my brain of useless information, I will be needed. :rolf:

[MadHound]

90. Geez, what a bunch of stereotypical horseshit, sadder still

Is that so many men are buying into that crap:eyes:

This Testorama display isn't aimed at a mature male. This is aimed at adolescents in a grown-ups clothing, all in pursuit of the dollar.

Television and media conditioning has been quite effective over the past thirty years. It changed the image of a mature caring man into an adolescent cartoon who likes to fart, play with loud things, and domineer over his wife and children. Sick an pathetic. Even more pathetic is that an entire generation of men are buying into it.

For those mature men out there, I suggest we start taking the definition of male away from corporate America, and redefining it to better suit what a true adult male really is. Otherwise we're going to have a bunch of adolescent guys running the show here in twenty years.

[Lilith Velkor]

93. It seems that is already the case. n/t

[DS1]

92. HAIR REMOVAL SYSTEMS?

This is not the testosterone-fest you're looking for

[BiggJawn]

96. I think they mean stuff like hair on your back...Think Ron Jeremy.

Nature already takes care of taking it off your head and sticking it in your ears...

[BiggJawn]

98. Can't think of a DAMN thing I'd like there.

And I'd look SO out of place, considering that I don't own ONE scrap of "RealTree" or a tractor hat... Well, maybe the pizza and beer....

Frankly, I feel HONORED that she trusts me enough to hold her purse.

Televised sports....Bet it wasn't the Giro or Vuelta... And Biker "chicks" and plastic fem-bots!

Now, the "Giant Rims" part....Mmm-hmm.... :evilgrin:

The American male has been in "crisis" for a long time. that EXACT phrase was part of the opening preamble to Lodge when I was into the "Drum naked in the woods" "Men's Movement" thing.

Frankly I don't know which caricature disgusts me most. Pink, Frilly little soft things sitting at home watching "lifetime" or beer-swilling tittie-groping, hooting, turd flinging ape-men...

[Laelth]

115. Very Interesting Thread

I consider myself a feminist. I certainly believe that women ought to get equal pay for equal work, and I'd like to see women take a stronger leadership role in all public areas of our society.

That said, ignore and dismiss Testorama at your peril. Men in the US, and perhaps in the West generally, are in crisis. The success of the Republican party can be attributed to the backlash that is resulting from the very real changes in gender roles in our society. Men perceive that masculinity is no longer valued as much as it once was. The success of the modern Republican party is the result.

I have no idea what to do about this, but I think it's a mistake to dismiss this fact. The emotions driving Testorama are real and have real effects, regardless of whether we validate those emotions (i.e. regardless of whether we sympathize with the men who are acting out in response to their perceived loss of power).

-Laelth

[mongo]

119. Interesting post

and certainly a new twist on the issue.

I think you do have a good point, and all you have to look at some of the responses in this thread to see that masculine qualities are labeled as "bad", and feminine as "good".

[Laelth]

123. Not really new.

I'd love to take credit for the idea, but take a look, again, at Pink Floyd's The Wall. Roger Waters makes the same argument. For better or for worse, the 20th century was the most violent in the history of humanity, and many believe that the violence in the West was, in part, the result of sweeping changes in gender roles. When men feel vulnerable, they assert male power ... i.e. physical strength, violence, and war (the ability to take life, as opposed to the uniquely feminine power to create life). This idea has been circling around for many years. It's just very hard for us to hear.

Note that fascist regimes are, to a fault, pro-masculinist regimes. Note that what some Islamic fundamentalists really hate about the West is our division of power among the genders. This is a real issue, and it won't go away if we simply ignore and dismiss it.

-Laelth

[bloom]

121. It is definitely affecting the political atmosphere...

I was looking for the "Wimp Factor" article linked above and found an article with this clip:


"I mean, 9/11 was a devastating horror, but it was also a humiliating atrocity, in addition to being a horrifying and disturbing one."

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/20343/


I didn't think of 9/11 as humiliating. It seems like could make a huge difference in how one reacts to the Iraq War and the whole thing.


I've also been reading what Scheff has to say on the issue of humiliation. ie:

SEPT. 11: /MALE EMOTIONS AND VIOLENCE

http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/faculty/scheff/20.html



And then I've been trying to figure out the whole appeal of what I call "humiliation porn":

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&masculinity.htm



I think it's all related.

[AlienGirl]

130. I think Alice Sheldon (James Tiptree, Jr.) understood it:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/sheldon/sheldon1.html

Everybody should read this short story. Actually, everybody should read all of Tiptree's work, she understood human nature at a deep level.

Tucker

[bloom]

141. That was an interesting story.

Part of it reminded me of this news story that I noticed earlier:



Violence part of life for girls in French suburbs


SAINT DENIS, France, Nov 10 (Reuters) - With nightly scenes of rioting beamed around the globe, the world has learned that France's bleak suburbs are enclaves of gang wars and macho rules. The girls living there have known this for years.

Even before the riots, Ophelia, 16, used to run home from school every day because she was afraid of being attacked in the maze of high-rise buildings in her suburb northeast of Paris.

A series of gang rapes in these bleak housing estates shocked France a few years ago. In 2002, a 17-year-old girl was set alight by an 18-year-old boy as his friends stood by.

Walking near a burned-out garbage bin, Ophelia's twin sister Sandra says the riots came as no surprise. Violence against and pressure on women is part of daily life in the suburbs, where boys can dictate how girls should dress.

"You have to behave like a guy and look like a guy. If you wear a skirt, you get into immediate trouble. You're a slut," says Sandra, wearing a baggy sweatshirt and jeans.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?id=2005111012160002710349&dt=20051110121600&w=RTR&coview=

[mitchum]

116. So it's a natural male urge to purchase consumer goods???!!!

this shit is so lame

[ErisFiveFingers]

132. Lovely stereotype slinging.

"he skills needed today are feminine: Getting along, sharing, nurturing those weaker and needier than ourselves, communicating, empathizing".... Yes, this is what defines me as a woman, just like "aggressive behavior, crime, violence, noise and brutality" is what defines me as a man. Or watching midgets wrestle, yeah, I guess that defines me somehow too, but I'm not sure what it would define me as. ;)

No wonder we're still in a period of dissent and confusion about sexual and gender equality, men aren't allowed to be *themselves* anymore than women are allowed to be *themselves*, let alone all of the people who don't fit neatly into any one gender box being allowed to have their own joys and dislikes. They're being charactured and stereotyped even by many of the folks seeking to eliminate historical stereotypes....

How about the idea that perpetuating *any* stereotypes based on sex and gender is wrong in the first place, and part of the problem, not the solution?

[Conan_The_Barbarian]

135. How did such behavior come to be masculine?

I really don't understand it... When I hear, or read the word masculine I imagine a strong tall man with well defined muscles and a good beard looking out defiantly at nature. I imagine a man that is both mentally, and physically disciplined ruled by rationality. This man I see is a provider, he works diligently to support his family. He is strong willed and adept at using his hands, and tools to manipulate the environment around him. He is highly confident but also humble. He is a leader, others draw from his confidence and strength. He is not easily provoked to violence but rather when provoked wins proving he is the better. This man I see is a creator, and he strives to be the best in his field, he's a succesful entrepeneur, or a research scientist, an engineer, an author etc.

I don't of WWF wrestlers and men hollering like animals at some strip show as masculine, that to me is just stupidity. I guess my understanding of masculinity is an outdated one.

[LiberalPersona]

136. A couple of things

Around 90 percent of rapes, assaults, robberies and murders are committed by males.

Of course they are! Men are naturally stronger than women and therefore those kind of crimes are easier to commit for a man than they are for a woman.

Boys have higher rates of suicide than girls.

This sentence is misleading. Females attempt suicide far more often than males do. Males simply succeed more often. Maybe males have more determination or something, I don't know how that works out.

I choose not to even bother with the last paragraph because it's nothing but a stereotyping of males = everything bad and females = everything good.

[bloom]

142. P.S. The entire essay is available at:

http://www.collegenews.org/x5067.xml


Turns out that Ted Rueter is an Assistant Professor of Political Science at DePauw University, Greencastle, Indiana - his column as I saw it was as an op-ed in Bloomington, IN Herald-Times.