Most Republicans here (Naples) think everything's hunky dory and Dubya's

[janekat]

Spoke to one of my Republican friends and mentioned that I had gone to a Clark meet-up. Her comment was "Oh yeah - I forgot you're into all that." She is pretty apolitical - and oblivious (despite being a semi-intelligent college-educated person).

She then mentioned that her boyfriend "loved" Bush.

I said "still?"

She asked totally obliviously "Whaddya mean?" I went on a semi-rant about how screwed up the country is. Guess she's been hiding under a rock because she had no idea what I was talking about. Of course, she's pretty happy because she recently received a Porche, an SUV and a $500,000 home - all from a divorce settlement.

THIS is what we're fighting against folks. People - unless they are personally affected seem to be completely happy and totally oblivious. AND it's not just her. MOST people I talk to here know nothing about the CIA leak, the lies about Iraq, etc. AND unless their 401k or retirement account has dwindled down to the point that they have to go back to work or sell their condo - the economy is hunky-dory in THEIR book.

Now I admit, this is Naples Florida - an affluent area - so maybe people aren't hurting so bad here. But most everyone I've spoken to is college-educated. Some people watch Fox news and skim over the "Republican Rag" (Naples Daily News) and that's where they get their news.

The only people who know anything about all this are the few Democrats that I run into. THEY are the only informed people. When I went to the Clark meet-up they all knew about the leak, etc. About half knew what PNAC was. Ironically, the most knowledgeable person there was a 14 year old kid.

HOW do we get the message out to these people? Most of them probably don't watch the news - (which is totally biased and pro-Bush anyways). A lot don't bother reading the entire newspaper. Do I have to get a megaphone and make an announcement in order to get to these people? I HAVE thought of running off some flyers and putting it into peoples boxes or something...

Are other people finding that everyone THEY run into are as oblivious? Please tell me no.

I'm very frustrated right now...

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. Welcome to America

Where 50% of the people are split on who to vote for.

And the other 50% couldn't give a shit.

[ixion]

2. this is precisely one of the reasons I want to move from the US

stupid American's who are either oblivious or seem to think it's okay for us to attack soverign nations in the name of OUR national (in)security.

[Flying_Pig]

3. That's an area of strong AIPAC support, and vis-a-vis that,

strong support for Israel (right or wrong), Bush, PNAC, and Sharon. Then of course, is the issue of money. Many in that area did benefit from Bush's tax cuts. How nice, and fortunate, ...for them. It amazes me how selfish people can be, and some say there's no class war in this country? My ass!

:grr:

[el_gato]

4. they won't wake up until they personally suffer

otherwise they don't care
infantile to the extreme

[ComerPerro]

10. Even that won't be enough, gato

because when they do start suffering, their "news" such as Hannity and OReiley will be ready to blame liberals for all their problems.

[el_gato]

13. your right but a few might wake up

and we don't need that many, just enough

[tom_paine]

14. Yep, and then Goebbels v2.0 will tell them EXACTLY how to behave

Like Soviets...

Like Nazis...

Like Busheviks...

(which, admittedly are for the moment "kinder and gentler" than Grandpa Prescott's Business Partners)

And you are right, the minions of Goebbels v2.0 will tell them EXACTLY what to do. And they will do it without question.

[janekat]

17. Yeah - it's either Clinton's fault or 911

n/t

[revcarol]

5. Clue her in to our librul talk show host

who broadcasts on Saturday. One thing about Guy James, he takes people right from the beginning of the issue through the various developments. I lose patience sometimes because I already know all that stuff, but it's great for the uninformed.

[diplomats]

6. I wouldn't worry too much

The people you're talking to are Repukes. Polls show they still overwhelmingly support Bush. But Dems and, increasingly, independents do not. In fact, independents are much closer to Dems in how they view Bush than they are to Repukes. The big news in Bush's recent poll slide has been the hemorrhaging of support from swing voters/moderates.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. You may want to start bringing up issues

such as the leak in conversation

You may have to drop a book on their laps, such as Krugman's and how the national deficit WILL AFFECT THEM.

make it matter to them, wich the media is not, and whenever people
talk abuot the budget it is very complex.

Well ask can you run on debt forever? We know better, her SUV would
be repossesed... so try to paint things in a way that are easy to understand for dumb downed americans

[Room101]

8. Bush is doing great, check it out

It's not easy wearing these sunglasses, my unwashed friend.


George W. Bush’s


Accomplishments As President

· In my first three years in office over 3.5 million Americans lost their job.

· Spent the surplus

· Shattered record for biggest annual deficit (500 billion) in history.

· Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

· Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

· Changed EPA rules that will Increase Pollution by 1.6 Million Tons

· Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans

· Tried to Cut hazard pay for troops serving in Iraq

· Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive’.

· Covered up for my rich friends the Saudi’s, for financing two 911 highjackers. 15 out of the 19 highjackers were from Saudi Arabia. (None from Iraq)

· Used forged evidence and lied about “Weapons of mass destruction” to get us into a Quagmire in Iraq. (Then taunted the Guerillas to kill our troops by saying “ Bring them on”)

· Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in U.S. history.

Records and References

· I’m AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.

· Republican Trent Lott “ We can support the troops without supporting the president”

· Republican Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

[calm_blue_ocean]

9. Do they vote?

Maybe the uninformed people you meet don't vote. If so, no problem -- being uninformed is the special prerogative of people who don't vote, imo.

If they do vote, then tell them not to vote unless or until they do get informed.

Whatever you do, don't call them "stupid."

[janekat]

18. hell no!! They ALLl vote - with bells on....

These are the affluent. They gotta keep Bush in power so they can get another tax cut next year. You can't be driving around in a 2 year old SUV for crissakes!

Heard that the Jaquar dealership here in Naples had a record year. So did Mercedes Benz in SW Florida. Best years they ever had....

[janekat]

19. LOL! Stoopid? I won't make THAT mistake again....

How's the term intellectually uncurious? THAT's my NEW theory.

[calm_blue_ocean]

24. Intellectually uncurious is a good term, but

I am not sure it fits here. Sounds like you are dealing with some of that small percentage of Americans who do benefit economically from Bush.

These are probably not good people to try to convince because they know what side their bread is buttered on. To put it Biblically, trying to convince *them* is like trying to thread a camel through the eye of a needle. I'd like to think that I wouldn't act like them if I was rich, but I have not been burdened with great wealth so I can't really say.

If I were you, I would direct my political rhetoric to friends somewhere in the bottom 95 percentiles. You would have a more level field there in the battle against incuriosity.

[Wickerman]

11. Don't want to sound defeatist

but you ain't getting to this one. Not until the whole world crashes down aroudn her. And why not? She is welathy enough to insulate herself with creature conforts and she watches TV that still extolls wealth and consumption over giving and compassion. Her usual circles of friends only talk positives about Bush because they made a bundle on the tax rebate and their 401k is coming back (that fell off under CLinton, right?). And look what a great job he has done with security in these times that bring a new war every month (ignore that he starts them). And look at the demnocracy he brought to Iraq. And the women in Afghanistan can vote! (Can't eat, but, hey, details). You ain't getting into her little world, its too comfortable there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. "College-educated" means very little these days

It may mean that the person majored in business, took the easiest general education courses possible, partied three nights a week, and never took advantage of the opportunities for personal enrichment that the typical college campus offers.

This is especially true of the dumb but affluent who went to college simply because that's what affluent young people are supposed to do between the ages of 18 and 22.

[moondust]

25. Add to that

the reluctance of colleges and universities to turn away poor students who bring money in tough times.

[KoKo]

15. Tell me About It! Raleigh, NC, here. Same thing..disgusting. I'm

"fringe folk." :-( Have to go over to protests in Durham and Chapel Hill, and even then they laugh at Raleigh.

Home of the "Family Values" folks. With money.

Until the Real Estate Market crashes these people won't listen. Where I live it's the Real Estate Developers, Lawyers, and Lenders who have "raked it in for 15 years." There have been downturns but Clinton's era really filled the Cash Pots with $$$'s.

No one will listen until things get worse. But, the Middle Class in other cities in NC are hurting big time. Furniture and Textiles and Tobacco which is what made NC before the Research Triangle Boom which brought in IBM, BIOTECH, INTERNET START UPS, and Medical Research.....that's all NC had.

We have reaped the benefits of the influx of everyone, brain power and muscle power, including all the immigrants who mow the lawns and build the houses and so it hasn't mattered to them who was in Power, and the RW Fundies could rail against Clinton, and no one cared.

Until the Housing Market collapses, no on in the Wealthier, Boom areas of the USA will listen to anything. It's gotta hit their wallets.

So, yes, I understand. I'm so tired of being "Fringe Folks." And where I live I should be a Repuglican. I live like one to the outside world. But, my roots and background are Democrat. And, I haven't forgotten my roots or where I came from and how I got here. But, so many others are happy to have what they have and thumb noses. Or, give a donation and forget about it.

Our fragile Democracy is in Peril....but they don't see it...because it hasn't hit them.

[janekat]

20. I grew up in an area that was just as sheltered... I was just an anomaly

couldn't wait to get out of there... Finally ended up in Chicago amongst DEMOCRATS for the first time in my life!!!

Now I'm back to the same old crap. Can't stand it.... Will some Democrats PLEASE move down here? You can all move in...

The scary thing is I used to be one of them. THEN I suddenly saw what B.S. it all was. WHY can't anyone else see it? I don't get it...

[KoKo]

21. The only answer is that "It hasn't hit them..we are wealthier today than

most of our parents were.....from what I see around me. Very few people had BMW's,Mercedes, etc. when I gre up. People would stop and look! The wealthy were few and far between.

Where I live even the most ordinary have 4-5,000 sq. ft. houses and SUV's and kids in Day Care (which is Okay, my kid had to be in daycare for awhile...but I needed the money) and they have Maids, and "groundsmen/ladies" and their kids have "Media Rooms," and their houses have decks or patio's with built in grills and "doo dads."

BUT! I NEVER see these people (where i live) Entertain or have kids over and enjoy themselves the way I remember from way back. It seems all is for SHOW! No substance or practicality to their lifestyles. And, believe me I KNOW.

These people are Weird! They think "Money Buys Happiness" but their decks and patios are empty, and their kids "play Gyms which are custom built, lack for kids to "play" on them, and they buy more and more stuff to satisfy their "worth," but it's HOLLOW......there's NOTHING THERE! It's ALL FLUFF!

[kentuck]

16. And the Repub PR machine means to keep it that way too...

They don't have to convince anyone except their true believers...They could give a damn what we think.

[KoKo]

22. Kentuck, that's what worries me....I think America has lost touch with

it's ROOTS! But, then, I know like me you are "of a different generation."

So MUCH of America today, doesn't have any "center/grounding" a sense of what they've come from and where they are going!"

Oh well.......not popular on DU if I really let go on what I've observed! LOL's :D

[moondust]

23. Ignorant, greedy, and aggressive.

The Republican Way.

[quaker bill]

26. No they aren't all that way

Two people I work with and I have had a lightly heated debate since 2000. They were Bush* voters. One, a religious fundie, came to me a week or so ago and stated, I can no longer vote for Bush*, he doesn't tell the truth. I don't know which lie turned the tide.

I just agreed and did not rub it in.

I know niether will vote for him again.

[SammyWinstonJack]

27. I share your frustration as do most here.

As to how too get the message out, that the current state of affairs is completely bad for Americans in general, I haven't a clue. While never myself being well off, due to divorce or even through hard work, I can say that up until three years ago, I was among those who believed that, "if it didn't affect my world financially, everything was hunky- dory." I have long since realized what a self-serving, self-absorbed stance that was. What blows me away with regards to the uninformed who apparently only care if they are effected financially, is the fact that they don't seem to mind that all Americans are being stripped of their civil liberties. Some feel that the restrictions placed on all Americans ie, the Patriot Act, will not apply to them if they are "not doing anything wrong." Yet, the very people in power, who are infringing on our rights, are the same people who decide what is "wrong behavior?" There is a lot more at stake in these times, then the financial stability of any one American. "United We Stand, Divided We Fall"

[ursacorwin]

28. i've said it before

the rich live in a *different* america; not Merka, and not the real world most of us operate in either. a bubble world, complete with its own rules, logic, 'religion,' and ways of measuring if things are 'good.' good to them means they are protected within that bubble; so long as this is the case little real change will occur, and daily conditions for the majority will slide along their steady decline, as our wealth and efforts are drained to continue to feed the parasites...

my very wealthy friends are at least not hypocrites: they flat out tell me they vote rethug to protect their money. period. all the rest is for the rabble, sheeple and the 'little people' too clueless to know how the game works.

we don't need to 'educate' these people; we need to eliminate that class. america should be democratic, not plutocratic or oligarchic. the constitution doesn't support laws which say otherwise.

[BeFree]

29. Glad you came around TBeyes!

What is it that these richees want? They want more. Well, don't they know what the deficit will do to their accounts?

Do they know * let China launch a space probe? Next thing ya know China is gonna be mining the moon. * has let the Chinese get ahead of us. It's his damn fault the Chinese, the COMMIE Chinese are gonna take over space and he, *, let them do it!

Can any of them name one thing * has done to stop the influx of Mexicans? Hell, Texas is filling with TexMex fast.

Now what's this I hear about this $87B Iraqi welfare? Ya mean they're just gonna sit back and let the damned federal gov, spend all that loot without a good attempt at keeping good books?

What the hell else has * got this gov. doing? Were giving away all our prime oil and gas leases for pennies. Were selling all of our best lumber to China and Japan and they are making cheap furniture out of it and selling it here in the good ol' US.

Ever hear about the Euro dollar? What in hell is * gonna do about it? Even Russia is thinking about trading in all it's US dollars for Euro dollars. What that means is that Old Europe is soon enough gonna be running the banks around the world, and the US is, with it's huge $500 Billion deficit, gonna be the world's largest debtor nation!

PS: Most of this is done with tongue firmly planted in cheek. But we can attack these people right where it hurts 'em because they don't know shit. All they want is more, and if we can crack that nut by showing them that * is leading the US to less and less with more and more big government spending.... well, ya get my point, right?

[ConsAreLiars]

30. Speak to those

who are not deaf, dumb and blind. Don't fret about the self-centered. Just drop an occasional fact, but give your attention to those who care about the greater good.

(edit typo)

[maggrwaggr]

31. broken record here: it's the media's fault

people like this watch TV, they go online to check their e-mail, they see newspaper headlines somewhere .....

That's what influences them outside of their little world.

If the media was doing its job they'd at least be aware of this stuff.

I mean, what DO they know about? Kobe. Arnold. They know ALL about that stuff.

Why? The media told them.

[Emillereid]

32. I was in line buying a prescription at my local Costco -

and much to my heart's delight two people ahead of me were bashing Bush -- blaming him for the increase in medicare, prescription drugs, Iraq, deficit, etc. and even said Davis got unfairly blamed. Naturally I chimed right in -- and gave them even more reasons to hate Bush. This by the way happened in the upscale community of Westlake, CA.

[Zorra]

33. Depressing subject.....

I live in a place that is pretty international. There is a cantina nearby that some older republican expatriates frequent. They love scrub, they all think Saddam was behind 9/11, love Limbaugh, and they wanted to kill me for being a traitor when I told them, before the war, that there were no WMD, and that the war was BS. They never have a logical argument, and they are completely uninformed. I never discuss politics with these folks anymore, they don't have a clue, and they don't want one.

Another place that I go to is always full of younger to middle age Europeans, Australians, Israelis, Canadians, and South Americans. They are almost all way more informed about American politics (except for a few of the Australians I've talked with) than most Americans are, and they absolutely universally despise scrub and Blair and hate the occupation of Iraq.

I wish they could vote.

[Brian Sweat]

34. You're problem is that you are working with unrepresentative samples.

The Republicans you meet live in Naples. Naples is a magnet for very wealthy conservatives. They are going to be die hard conservatives with so much money that they wouldn't even suffer if a full scale depression hit the country.

The Democrats that you met at a Clark rally are obviously going to be more tuned into what is going on in the world than about 99% of Americans.


You remind me of some Republicans I used to know who refused to believe that Clinton was going to win the 1992 election, because almost no one they knew was going to vote for him. They were wing nuts and so were most of their friends, so of course they didn't know to many people who would vote for Clinton.