Honestly, I don't think that Bush lied

[question everything]

His simple mind would be incapable of concocting such an elaborate charade.

I think that most of us agree that Bush (Jr., Sr. was smarter than that), and Reagan were selected by the powers that be to provide a genial faces to do and say when they were told to.

Yes, as others have pointed out, while Reagan knew it was just another role, Bush does think that he really was elected based on his leadership skills and the ability to articulate the goals of this country.

Sooo... Bush did not lie. At least, not intentionally. He was just told to say that Iraq had WMD.

And I don't have problems with all the Democrats (and Republicans) who voted in favor of invading Iraq based on the information given.

No, what bothers me is that there has never been a plan on how to execute this "search and destroy" mission, how to get others to be involved and how to get out of there.

As someone recently commented about Veterans Day that was to commemorate the "War to end all Wars:" sure, since then all we had were police actions and operations, but not wars...

Wars are never predictable, and good leaders and generals should be able to change strategy and tactics when conditions on the ground change.

I don't think that it is too late to get the massive armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria to start patrolling the streets to handle the "insurgents." In an area that has a long mistrust of Western politics, having forces that at least speak the language and are familiar with customs and culture and history could make a difference.

As Clinton so successfully said during his re-election camping in 1996: we need to look forward, not backward.

There will be plenty of time to bring to trial the ones who purposely lied to get us into this war and into other messes.

Right now, let's concentrate on the now and the future. Let's honestly sit with military experts from the Arab World and let's plan on how to get out of there.

And it the final outcome is a theocratic regime; if the final outcome is a major regression of women's rights and of civil rights; if the final outcome is a limited access to the Iraqi oil - we will just have to live with it.

[displacedtexan]

1. I think Bush loves lying and getting away with it.

That's why he's so pissed off right now. Can't get away with it anymore.

[yella_dawg]

11. I agree.

It's almost like lying and deceit are a game and he smirks just to taunt us.

[question everything]

31. Perhpas. But would he even understand what yellowcake mean? (nt)

[triguy46]

53. I guess this is a philosphical point, and I think its worthy of

discussion. We frequently post here that * is frickin puppet, that he is a brainless pawn of satan, cheney and rove. In that case he is spouting words, the veracity of which he doesn't know. That might exonerate him in some obscure way from creating the lie, but it does not relieve him of guilt of spreading the lie.

My opinion? he doesn't give a shit, he just tells them to write a speech, he'll read it. He's a short timer and his personal "give a shit" meter is reading zero.

[July]

63. Good way to put it.

He may not be bright enough to come up with the lies, but once he gets his script, he certainly enjoys telling them. Getting away with it feeds his narcissism and (laughable) notion that he's a macho man.

[Cha]

2. I strongly disagree..

bUSH LIED.

[Neocondriac]

3. Don't kid yourself......

Poppy Bush is the most dangerous man in the world. His son is fully up to speeded on this shit!

[RagingInMiami]

4. No matter how simple his mind is

He is still a compulsive liar. And if you don't have a problem with all the dems and the repubs who voted in favor of the war, you are way too forgiving.

[Bob3]

5. a three year old will lie to get what he or she wants.

or to get out of trouble - like the whopper's he's told about his relationship with Kenny Boy, our Iraqi George Washington Chabli (sp?). * has lied and knows he's been telling whoppers. He doesn't care cause he's lying to people who are not his people.

[Solly Mack]

6. So we should just move on for the good of the country?

Is that the gist?

[RagingInMiami]

8. And if you're not with that program

You're just simply unpatriotric.

[Solly Mack]

12. That would be the other part of it, yes

I've never been patriotic

Woe is me (she says with a snicker)

[RagingInMiami]

24. I guess that means you have no other choice but to ...

move to France.

[Solly Mack]

28. France is less than a hour away by ICE

Is that close enough? :)

I'm already in Germany.

[RagingInMiami]

47. Personally, I would take Paris over Berlin

But that's just my personal opinion after visiting both cities.

[Solly Mack]

58. I like Paris too

I live south of Berlin. way south

[RagingInMiami]

61. I was just comparing capitals

I lived in Europe for two years and had a great time. I think every American should live in Europe for at least a year in order to open theirs mind.

[Solly Mack]

62. I agree! It really does alter the perspective

in a much needed way.

[RagingInMiami]

70. The first lesson I learned as a young American in Europe (mid 20s)

Was that the world did not revolve around the USA.

[question everything]

30. No. We should concentrate on how to get out of there

not on pointing fingers.

In the past two days alone we lost 10 soldiers while we are chanting that Bush lied.

Set our priorities straight. Get Arab armies to help the Iraqi government, get the troops back home and then send Rove to Leavenworth.

[Solly Mack]

33. Bush lied. Saying so doesn't kill anyone - however, Bush' lies DID

kill them all.

And spare me the "for the troops" bullshit. My husband is a soldier. He served in Iraq. You can't tell me anything about it that I don't already know - cause I live it.

Bush lied. Bush Lied. Bush lied.

Speaking the truth doesn't harm the troops - Not speaking the truth does.

[question everything]

38. And how does "saying this" solve the budget deficit

restore domestic programs that were killed so that we can pay for the war in Iraq and, yes, how does this spare the lives of soldiers who are still there?

Are you so selfish that now that your spouse is back from Iraq you don't care about those who are still there? Or is this the narrow minded attitude that "I had to pay my dues, now it is your turn?"

Is this the best you can come, like a five year old: "he lied, he lied, he lied?"

Are you feeling better now?

[Solly Mack]

40. Oh, so now I'm selfish if I want the truth out there so this can never

happpen again? So no more soldiers die for a lie, I'm selfish? Great logic that...

And I note you needed to resort to fallacious bullshit about what I said - that's awfully cowardly of you.


"Are you so selfish that now that your spouse is back from Iraq you don't care about those who are still there? Or is this the narrow minded attitude that "I had to pay my dues, now it is your turn?"

Until you live the military life, don't you ever attempt to spout your ignorant bullshit at another military family. You have no clue what you're talking about. My husband is STILL a soldier - he is still paying those "dues" as you so ignorantly call them.



Bush lied. His lies have killed Iraqi people and American troops. People like you who support not calling him on his lies will be the reason he will get away with them. We can't afford to allow time to go by before we call Bush on his lies. His lies kill.

[question everything]

46. And what makes you determine that I did not live a military life?

Some of us build our opinions based on fact and reasons and rationales. Others try to Ophraizing everything.

Yes, as a military spouse, just like Cindy Sheehan, you are entitled to ask question. But asking questions alone is not enough. Tearing down plans and ideas is not going to achieve anything without offering alternatives. Believe me, I have been involved in other political battle when our side won when we offered sound alternatives.

[Solly Mack]

55. ...

You displayed your ignorance of the military life with your comments.
When one soldier is deployed, it touches everyone in the military. When one dies, it affects us all. We're a family with all that entails because we share the same risks, same problems, same concerns - and when one dies, we all mourn. Outsiders will never understand that. If you had a clue about military life, you would have never resorted to such bullshit as calling me selfish or make such a stupid comment as "paying dues" - as if you had a clue.



And you're still resorting to fallacious arguments...you know, things like hyperbole, straw men, and red herrings (instead of facts, reason and rationale)

Your weak attempts to put down my thoughts as "Ophraizing " is also sexist. Your pathetic attempt to marginalize me as a spouse by calling my thinking emotional, which IS what you meant by "Ophraizing" (you lie if you say otherwise) shows just how little merit your point of view holds.

To ask "how will this solve the deficit" (by calling Bush a liar) is fallacious...since that's not the point and because of the obvious...Not calling him a liar won't help it either. Not telling the truth won't help anything.

Appeasing the liars by not calling them on their lies won't solve anything. Calling him a liar won't bring the troops home quicker - but he is a liar and he did lie and that IS the truth...and that's the truth that must be driven home for Bush to be held accountable.

Bush lied. He should be held accountable for his lies. But you will never hold him accountable if you insist on painting a lie as an oopsies ("unintentional")...or Bush sas somehow less to blame because he's "stupid"

[ProfessorGAC]

41. It Doesn't Solve It. However, It Is Critical. . .

. . .that the administration be discredited as much as possible, because i sure don't want them or the Congressional republicans left in charge of cleaning up this mess. They will only make it worse.

So, saying Bush lied is a "pre-emptive" strike on helping to assure that the whole philosophy is discredited.
The Professor

[Crankie Avalon]

7. And when he foolishy admits in public that he "really doesn't care...

...about where Osama bin Laden is" and then brazenly denies he said it, or when he puts on his serious face and piously intones about "fighting terra" and in the next breath says "now watch this drive" (showing that he was just faking his so-called commitment to "keeping America safe")--is he just too clueless to really be lying then, too?

Everything known about his childhood, adolescence, and adulthood points to his being a sociopath. If only lying were the worst of it!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Could you elaborate on the sociopath statement?

I don't know all that much about his younger days and I'm really interested (not least of all because I'm a teacher) in what sociopathic behaviors he exhibited back then.

[Crankie Avalon]

29. Kitty Kelley's "The Family" focuses on his childhood for a spell...

...when he was seven, his younger sister died of leukemia and his parents and he went golfing the next day. Maybe that wasn't his fault (it was his parents decision, after all), but it set the example for him with regard to relating to the existence of others.

In school, he would get his classmates to play something called "pigball" which involved him yelling "pigball" when certain classmates would pick up a ball. The yell was the signal for his gang of flunkies to gang up and jump on the defenseless ball-holder.

As a teenager, he used to bully and belittle his brother Jeb. This seemed to go beyond the normal sort of sibling rivalry, as Jeb Bush is nine years younger than Junior and really should not have been any cause for Junior to feel threatened.

Numerous people who were childhood acquaintances of his remember him as a self-involved bully with not much capacity for empathy.

I'd recommend "The Family" for more information.

[KansDem]

45. Don't forget his "funtime" of blowing up frogs with firecrackers...

«`We were terrible to animals,' recalled Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush borne turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. `Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,' Throckmorton said. `Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow them up.'»

Kristof made plain that «we» explicitly included George W. Bush, and that George W., the Safari Club International «Governor of the Year» in 1999 for his support of trophy hunting, was the leader among the boys who did it.

http://www.all-creatures.org/aip/nl-3nov2000-frogs.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. At the age of 21, he was defending the torture of fellow students

Still, at Yale as on other campuses around the country, an era was ending and fun-loving preppies were falling out of step. In the fall of 1967, when huge numbers of college students were marching on Washington to protest the Vietnam War, Bush was quoted in the New York Times defending the branding of fraternity pledges with a hot coat hanger, saying the resulting wounds resembled "only a cigarette burn."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072799.htm

Not only did he do it, he was happy to defend it in public. And byt this time he was an adult, with a clear opportunity to understand the difference between right and wrong. Honestly, I'm amazed he was ever elected in the first place, since this story was known to all the media. It shows he's fundamentally unsuitable for public office. I'd have thought it would have been brought up time and time again.

[leveymg]

9. He's still a co-conspirator, even if he said, "I don 't wanna know."

Bush has an affirmative responsibility to act reasonably in the face of criminal behaviors by his underlings, and if he doesn't take reasonable steps to put a halt to it, he can be indicted. The law of conspiracy is clear on this from past case precedent of corporate CEOs and chairmen who've similarly tried to hide behind a veil of disinterest or detachment.

If Cheney gets indicted, Shrub's going too.

[Just Me]

10. Oh, he fucking lied then and he's lying now!!!

Please, stop suggesting such silliness, "I don't think Bush lied."

:eyes:

[question everything]

36. There are lies and there are lies

Sue he can lie about eating the last piece of the pumpkin pie.

But these lies were presented to the world. Poor Colin Powell went to the U.N. with them. Certainly Kerry and Edwards and Clinton are smart enough to not fall for a simple Iraq has WMD because I say so.

The people who surround him: Rumsfled, Wolfowitz and Libby, among others, are the one who built this charade and scheme. Wolfowitz talked about invading Iraq if Bush wins back in October of 2000.

And, no, he cannot escape responsibility just because he is too stupid to understand WMD. The buck does stop at his desk.

But for us to concentrate on "Bush lied" is to distract from the main issues of getting out of Iraq, restoring domestic programs that are being cut because of the deficit that is powered by the war in Iraq and concentrate on finding credible candidates for the house in 2006 and for the White House in 2008.

I know that most voters now want out of Iraq and question the need to be go there in the first place. But I don't think that we can get these voters to vote for our candidates by saying "Bush lied."

[stanwyck]

54. Bush lied is at the core of everything

Everything. This is what his administration is, manipulation through misinformation. It's the talkshow hosts who get their talking points straight from the White House. It's Judy Miller being a steno for Dick Cheney. It's Congress believing the lies and forming legislation.
Not understanding the impact of the lies is a failure on your part.
This is not about "getting votes".
It's about the future of our country.
Our administration runs America by lying. About everything.
How can we move forward with an administration which cannot be trusted?

[dkofos]

13. Maybe you should change your screenname to

"question nothing"

[question everything]

37. How sad. Attacking the messenger instead of debating

the issues.

I do hope that our candidates for Congress and for the Whir House will not follow your "dittohead" mindset.

[jannyk]

14. I agree with you

I don't think the neocons would have trusted Jr. to keep all the devious details straight. I don't think he was in on the strategy planning and the intelligence bending. I too believe he was appointed because he is ineffectual and incurious. The same as Reagan during the Iran-Contra debacle. I think Bush's crime is allowing it to happen through incompetance.

However, I think he is now well aware of what occured (or as much as he is capable of understanding0 and that is why he has become almost incoherent when publicly speaking. He just babbles because he's terified he'll blurt something out he shouldn't.

Oh, I believe he's a sociopathic liar, I just don't believe the neocons trusted him with complicated plans anymore than we do.





edit for typo

[question everything]

39. Thank you for your thoughtful and to the point reply

and welcome to DU. We need more members like you. Who think before they shoot from the hip. Who are not afraid to detail their reasoning for expressing a sometimes not popular opinion.

:toast: :bounce:

[leftofthedial]

15. L'il George is incapable of NOT lying

it's congenital

[Spazito]

16. bush couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it...

he is a pathological liar.

[PATRICK]

17. I honestly believe he knew waaay enough

but trusts the details and responsibilities if things go bad to be dutifully and successfully handled by those beneath him. He floats above various godfathers, but he knows exactly what he is doing, perhaps too ignorant and arrogant to deal with delegated gaffes. Often he betrays in his most direct actions that it is ALL about the Bush dynasty NOT the RW agendas as top priority. They never separate but the top protected priority is himself.

This is looking to the past where doddering Ronnie seemed very credible in ducking responsibility for his administration with his incipient Alzheimer's and crumby administrative style subverted by... the Bushies.
And now suddenly we are supposed to revisit pity and let a mask of weakness cover their intentional crime?

Looking forward does not mean leaving an enemy behind, not covering your backs. Never dealing with this scum has cost us plenty since the inception of this country when we at least had the luck of driving Tories into exile.

The law of the land has not only been violated but discredited. The whole fabric of trust cannot be healed by forgetfulness with nary a speck of truth to even get at what should have been generously- or stupidly- forgiven. Truth before punishment. Confession before mercy. Justice as the medicine that speeds healing. How on earth can anyone dredge up enthusiasm for goody goody bureaucrats on a blasted civil landscape of lies?

I am for some truth trial model but one with a bit more teeth since from the South African experiment one sees the confessed criminals can still be dangerous recidivists. As for eating our own or institutions who only now are saying some of the things we said that would have stopped the war, the cause of belief must be examined and repudiated, not the "we wuz tricked meme" that they hated to end up with like the "we wuz robbed" meme they still cannot bear to admit. There never was safe or just cause to give Bush and his cronies any benefit ever- by their record before or after 2000- based on deadly subversion of democracy itself. The pattern of planning and lies was clear as glass if not their "secrets". They not only let the "winner" cloak himself in the flag, opinion polls and institutional myths, THAT was the cause of establishment belief, most likely and incredibly, dismayingly, one personally held by pols we otherwise consider savvy cynics.

Bush seems to blame people for allowing themselves to be fooled. He almost says it openly. It is what empowers the con. Suckers. Suckers all, and powerless plebes like us who don't matter. But is not the conned who have committed a crime.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. Everybody is entitled to starting at least one war based on bogus intel

it's all good.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

20. People who know him say the "dumb act" is just an act & he's just lazy.

It's said that he loves it when people underestimate him because he can then "slam" them. He's lazy, however, and has everyone else do most of the work.

He's said to be a master at manipulation - as are some alcoholics.

[question everything]

44. Perhaps, I accept this. However we know that the PNAC gang

had their eyes on taking over Iraq even before Bush entered the White House. We also know that it would have been difficult to get the majority of Congress and the country behind him had it not be for 9/11. And, no, I do not accept the LIHOP MIHOP conspiracy theories that many here love so much.

As I said above - this specific scheme was too complex for him to be part of the plan. And they did not expect him to be.

We are already moving forward. He has now become irrelevant, the way Gingrich wanted Clinton to be and even his own party is moving away from his programs. There will be no legacy for him.

So let us get above the gutter. Let us stop just chanting "Bush lies" and let us push ahead with our programs. With getting out of Iraq as quickly as we can to both save the lives of the soldiers and to try to stop the hemorrhaging of the deficit. Let us bring back the domestic programs that are being cut to support this war.

In short, let us concentrate on or plan for this country, not on behaving like five year old kids saying "Bush lied, Bush lied." We do not achieve anything. The country does not trust him anymore, finding him inept and ineffective and it is not just because of the war.

We should leave the navel grazing to the 60's and get moving with our plans for the country.

[rman]

68. The "dumb act" is to pander to his poor RW voter base.

Basically acting as dumb as they are undereducated and ill-informed (getting much their info - and marching orders - via telephone trees, email lists and the local hate radio). Freepers, essentially.

It seems he even has them convinced he's there to protect them from "Big Bad Government".

Bush can be very well spoken, in particular on matters of war and violence.

[spanone]

21. I believe Bush* lied. He continues to lie. He will lie in the future.

This man has been in denial of the truth all his life. He has never sought the truth. He has never embraced the truth. He has no respect for the truth. He wouldn't know the truth if it was laid out in front of him. He fears the truth. I believe Bush* lied.

:toast:

[mmonk]

22. Nope

He's a liar like the rest of them.

[LunaC]

23. Lying comes naturally to sociopaths n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Sorry, but Herr Busch lied like a good little NeoCon.

[Uncle Joe]

26. I believe a person can be stupid and lie at the same time.

You don't have to be intelligent to get away with it, if the corpwhorate owned MSM decide to obfuscate your shortcomings or lies and enable you to do it.

[otohara]

27. Not Buying It - He's Lied His Entire Life

why would he stop now?

[kentuck]

32. He lied.

If there is one thing he does well, it is lying. That has been his life.

[LSK]

34. SOMEBODY lied

Because its a simple fact that Saddam had no WMD and was not a threat to the USA. It is always well documented that inspectors found nothing and inspectors in the 90s disarmed Saddam.

Therefore SOMEBODY lied and in addition the President is ultimately responsible for everyone in the country. The buck stops with him. So if he didnt lie, he certainly is not trying to find the liars.

[rman]

69. ->

[punpirate]

35. Okay, as regards Bush's truthfulness...

... how does "We do not torture" square with the facts, which are almost universally known by now?

How does his refusal to be truthful about his past--in any way--jive with the truthfulness you describe for him?

How does the promotion of people who have lied for him and the dismissal of people uncomfortable with doing so jive with his own sense of honesty?

How do his own comments about not knowing about al-Qaeda's intentions for 9/11 square with the Aug. 6th PDB which he was known to have received and was briefed on and which was titled, "al-Qaeda determined to strike inside US"?

How does his honesty measure up with Richard Clarke's recollections that Bush was insistent upon going after Iraq shortly after 9/11, telling Clarke to find out about Iraq, even after Clarke told him, flat out, that Iraq was not where al-Qaeda was?

What can we say about Bush's relative honesty when he defends and supports a dirty trickster like Rove, even at the expense of the reputation of the White House as a whole?

How do Bush's repeated assertions, through the fall and winter of 2002-3, that he was seeking diplomatic solutions to the Iraq problem and did not want war, square with illegal US military bombing of strategic Iraqi targets--which was an act of war--beginning in August, 2002, something which could not take place without Bush's approval?

No, I don't buy it. Bush is a pathological liar (even though he's not particularly good at it), and even more devious than his father. Maybe not as bright as his father, but that's not saying much. His father was no genius, either.

Just remember--both he and his father tried to portray themselves as US citizens outraged by the actions of other countries and between them started four wars. The elder Bush used the flimisiest of excuses to invade Panama and ignored the opposition of the rest of the world, then effectively suckered Hussein into invading Kuwait (and then lied to the Saudis about Iraqi intentions to invade Saudi Arabia) so that the US could put long-term bases in the Middle East. His son was planning the invasion of Afghanistan five months before 9/11, because the Taliban had made a pipeline deal with a South American country and the only way to undo the deal was to get rid of the Taliban government. (Ask yourself--since every war in the last twenty years has taken a minimum of five months to prepare logistically and to get troops and equipment into place--how did the US manage to invade Afghanistan only three weeks after 9/11?) Then he lied repeatedly about Iraq, to the press, to the public, to everyone. In that regard, he makes Nixon look like a choirboy.

Healthy skepticism is always a virtue when considering the words of modern presidents.

[warrens]

42. Bush lied

He has people around him who are perfectly capable of reading intelligence reports and explaining them in simple language. Card, Rove, etc. knew what was going on. They fudged words so he didn't directly lie if you parse it line by line, but he was most certainly lying. Cheney, OTOH, out and out lied most of the time, and fuck parsing.

[0007]

43. junior knew, and don't let anyone kid you. junior knew he was fronting

lies for power & big bucks.

[DemExpat]

64. Yes, I think he knew on this level as well....

He parrots the lies for the masterminds without understanding any complexities, and does it willingly IMO.

DemEx

[OhNoTheyDidNot]

48. Doubt it, but even if true, 'Ignorance is no excuse for the law' nt

[Wind Dancer]

49. What?

We aren't supposed to hold this administration responsible for the deaths of our military soldiers and countless innocent Iraqi citizens? You suggest we ignore the criminal behavior of the Boy King? Do you really believe he's not capable of manipulating the American people?

He may not be the brightest but he is no dummy. Have you noticed the amount of destruction he's caused this country since he stole the election in 2000? You may be willing to forget the past but many of us want to see justice served.

:shrug:

[VaYallaDawg]

50. Less worried about a theocratic regime and suppression of

human rights in Iraq than I am for the potential in the US.

[WI_DEM]

51. I do believe he lied and is capable of lying

I also don't think he has a genial face or personality.

[ernstbass]

52. he buck stops at his desk

his administration = his responsibility

[OKNancy]

56. Bush is a puppet, therefore, I agree with you

Bush is not the real President IMO. He is just a figurehead.
He didn't lie, because he was told what to say by Cheney, Wolfowitz and the others who pull the strings.

He's an idiot and a sham.

[seabeyond]

57. putting aside the going to war, or not. bush is incompetent

every step of the way in this war bush had not been a good leader. he has been a miserable failure. that alone is a great enough burden. and....... he is not going to magically become competent and able so even if we want to fix our mess, it isnt going to happen and bush has proven this to us over and over

[question everything]

74. True. Incompetent and by now marginalized and irrelevant

and we can see that Congress is now balking at his budget, his proposed laws, his attempt at legacy.

So we need to hit the iron while still hot, grab these changes and run with them. We need to show that we are the party of actions, actions that benefit all Americans and not hang on "Bush lied" that, really, just hold us back.

There are many Republicans and, I would guss, independent, who do not like his policy but some many cringe when they hear the battle cry "Bush lied." I think that the real victory for us would just to continue with our platform, to just ignore and marginalize him.

I doubt that if there is ever a true grand jury, that he will be indicted for starting the war on false assumptions. That was Tenet role.

But our victory will come next year, when we capture Congress, and in 2008 when we take the White House. When we roll back his giveaway to this buddies. When we show that government is by the people and for the people, not by corporations and for wealthy investors.

See, this is what was so hurting last year. It was clear that many did not trust him even then. It is clear that most voters do support the Democratic agenda, once it is presented to them in clear terms. Yet, they won. He won and Congress widened the gap.

Reagan was the Teflon president and, last year, so was Bush.

When we take the power from them, this will be so more important and meaningful then sitting at our desks, clicking on our keyboards that Bush lied.

[Bridget Burke]

59. Bush was not the mastermind, but he lied.

His Presidency began in an election that was a lie & a Supreme Court decision that was bogus. His "surprise" on 9/11 was a lie, even though others in his administration knew more than he.

As others have said, you can be stupid & still a liar. Why should we treat Bush with kid gloves, as his policies continue to kill people overseas & in the USA? Why should we not call a liar a LIAR?

Veterans' Day commemorated the War to End War back when it was called Armistice Day. That was the end of the Great War. I believe there was at least one more war after that one?

And why the HELL should we present Iraq to its neighbors for carving up?

Yes, let's think of the Present & the Future. But why forget the Past? Unlike your President, some of us can walk & chew gum simultaneously.

[BonjourUSA]

60. Honestly, it's very difficult to go ahead with the pants down on the heels

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

65. I suggest you read the Downing Street Memos (minutes). Orders

Why this isn't being brought up now that the Dems are finally being heard, is beyond me....

http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

[donheld]

66. I honestly think he lied endlessly

I think he only tells the truth by accident.

[rman]

67. Do you really think Bush himself runs the entire show?

He doesn't think of anything, period. He's just a front man, a puppet - knowingly and willingly, but a puppet nonetheless.

There are entire teams of advisers and experts to think for him. Not to mention Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz (arguably the brain behind the PNAC doctrine), Karl Rove the propaganda expert, and many others.

I think you should question more deeply.

[B Calm]

71. President Chuckle Nuts loves to lie.. Been doing it all his life..

[Disturbed]

73. Lying means that the person stating something knows...

what is being stated is not a fact, true.

The twenty lies of George W. Bush
Monday night's 15-minute speech by President Bush, setting a 48-hour deadline for war against Iraq, went beyond the usual distortions, half-truths, ...
www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/bush-m20.shtml

Bush and Cheney must be Impeached!

I believe that Cheney should be Impeached first.

[rman]

72. The Government lied, Repubs lie all the time

(by far most of 'm anyway). Even many Dems lie, if only lies by omission. There were Dems in the Kean commission that issued the official 9-11 (c)ommission report. The one that says financial ties to 9-11 aren't really that important (hence 28 missing pages).


"Turns out that unlike the 18 minutes missing from the Nixon tape, the 28 pages missing from Congress' publicly released report on the September 11 attack has been found. And it turns out to be a summary of Saudi Arabia's financing of terrorist fronts including the 'charities' supporting Al Qaeda.

And now, the New York Times tells us, the US Senate has been embarrassed into holding hearings on those Saudi charity fronts including one named WAMY.

Of course, this is ancient news to those who watched my report on WAMY and Saudi funding of terror -- broadcast on BBC's evening news on November 9, 2001. (In the USA, that report earned me the title of 'conspiracy nut.' In America, a 'conspiracy nut' is defined as a journalist who reports the news two years before the New York Times.)"

<more>

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=253&row=2

[Terran1212]

75. I would agree with you if it was just Bush...

But he was backed by very conniving and intelligent people. They weren't all just fanatics; they were experienced politicians.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. Bush is still a major part of the problem

You say "let's sit with military experts". Who is "us" in that phrase? Democratic Underground? We could have all the talks we wanted with Arab experts, and we'd still have no power. Changes in policy come from those in power, or with a possibility of gaining power. Given the Bush regime shows no sign at all of changing (stubbornness is a characteristic they admire greatly), it's a question of getting more Democrats elected, or Republicans to distance themselves from Bush, and work with Democrats, because they fear getting unelected. And that means exposing Bush as a purposeful, immoral liar.

It's the simple truth when we say Bush is a liar. It should be part of the strategy of Democratic candidates to say it frequently (though I agree they need to fashion workable plans too), and places like Democratic Underground are best suited to do it constantly. We can't force Democratic candidates to adopt our plans, and the electorate is more likely to vote for Democrats who assemble their own plans, rather than adopt what one group on the Internet say. But what we can do is expose the bullshit that Republicans try to get away with.

Democratic Underground is one of the places that the media looks at for ideas (for instance, the BBC interviewed EarlG). The more the message they see is "Bush, and Republicans, lie, and cannot be trusted", with the facts to back that up, the more that will get into the mainstream - where floating voters will see it, and begin to think about why they should support Democrats.

[loyalsister]

78. Your post opens good debate

and I think it echoes much of public sentiment which has been nurtured by late night television and Democrats who have insisted he is stupid.
I have tried to point out time and again that he thrives on low expectations, and is very clever at using them to his advantage. Stupid like a fox.