Could riots like in France happen here?!

[mb7588a]

In L.A. it started because of police beating Rodney King...

In France, it started with the accidental death of two young men being chased by police...

The two cases are fundamentally different, but eerily similar.

I could see places like southeast DC going crazy over poor economic and educational and criminal conditions.

I wonder at what point immigrants in the United States would be so fed up with the conditions that they would be drawn to rioting in the streets? Will the U.S. come to this?

edit: typo

[wtmusic]

1. You answered your own question

The LA riots had exactly the same source: frustration. It will happen again.

[mb7588a]

3. but on a national scale,

according to AFP,

8,400 vehicles burnt nationwide along with dozens of public buildings
Dozens injured and one death said to be connected
2,652 people arrested, 592 in custody
Insurance claims put at 200m euros

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4434026.stm

Those are staggering numbers.

[wtmusic]

9. Ahh

In France burning cars is fairly common (an average of 80 a day before the riots). So they've burnt in three weeks what they usually burn in three months. That's a lot.

But 1 in 10 French citizens is a Muslim. Unlike African-Americans many speak little of their country's first language, are relative newcomers, and are likely less integrated in French society. Because of this and geographical differences we probably don't have the necessary conditions... right now.

[tocqueville]

16. keep to facts, please

1) about 5% of the French population is of "Muslim" origin, which makes 1 in 20, not one in 10

2) 90% of the rioters are betwen 14-20 with a peak round 17-18. They are not newcomers, they are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The vast majority (99%) of the older immigrants, let say from 25 and above are not rioting and against the riots, they are the first victims.

3) the vast majority of the rioters are not "Muslims". A lot of them are "Christian" blacks and for the rest they are the kind of "Muslim" that drink wine like a fish and eat pork. In the areas where the religious influence is the strongest, they have been NO riots.

4) the problems with discrimination and integration are more an excuse than a source. These areas have benefited through the years of social welfare Black americans could only dream of. It's true that it's difficult to change your social status in those areas, but it applies to other areas too with a different ethnic background. Besides the social problems for some "strange reason" don't apply to girls. They go to school, don't do drugs and mostly succed socially.

5) the main reason for the riotings is that a whole generation of youngsters don't want police interference in the areas they "control". It's more a gang war than anything else, even if there are wide social and racial implications.

[wtmusic]

20. Hmm

"Conservative estimates in the absence of reliable race or religion-related statistics, which are not allowed under French law, put the current Muslim population of France at 6 million (almost 10% of France's 62-million population). There is some reason to think that the actual Muslim population may be closer to 8 million (about 12%)."

http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2003NOV/nov5.htm


"France has a very generous social security system. Employees are cosseted: They have lots of holidays, good pensions to look forward to, and it is very hard to get fired.

That's great if you have a job. The cost, however, is that companies are reluctant to hire people. You create an insider- outsider divide: the people on the inside, with jobs, have a comfortable life, while those on the outside are left with little."

The people without jobs are usually ethnic minorities."

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&cid=lynn&sid=aJkyKmBAEmWg

Second-generation French are "relative newcomers" in a country where many citizens can trace their bloodline back 500 years. Though you imply testosterone is the reason for the rioting, these people are minorities without a job. Sound familiar?

[tocqueville]

21. still keeping to facts

1) Outpost is a Jewish review "working for a safe Israel". Let me say without any prejudice that their assumptions of the "muslim" population are somewhat biased. Besides the fact that the "Muslim population" is more around 3-4 millions, the vast majority of them is secular. The riot problem in France isn't a Muslim problem. facts show that in the most "islamic" neighbourhoods the rioting was non existent.

2) Social security : even if you don't have a job in France, you have FREE MEDICAL CARE (including maternity, dentistery etc...) if you have an income under $700. Everybody is alloved to have $300 a month in welfare, $600 for a family + child-allowances increasing with the number of children and practically all paid rent in social housing.

Plenty of those unemployed prefer to live on that system than taking a job. Besides there are plenty of jobs done "under the table" to avoid taxes. The unemployment problem is more a question of social rank than a mean of survival. I don't even name completely free schools including college. Which the girls use without problem to get away from the macho dominance from brothers and fathers. The boys quit because it's "boring".

3) It's worse than that : about 30-40% of the rioters are blacks from central Africa or the West Indies with a Christian background for the vast majority. They are between 13 and 25, the majority round 17. Their "ideology" is anti-white racism and blaming their condition on slavery (which was abolished 230 years ago). Those guys are the product of polygamy for the African part and were practically left living on the streets by mothers who cannot cope with them in the absence of the fathers. Their main way of living is drug trafficking and theft. Sounds familiar ?

I never talked about testosterone, I talked about criminality. And I don't deny that the average poor social situation (by French standards) is creating criminality too. But the vast majority having REAL and justified grievances about the failures and flaws of the French republica and secular system is not rioting and is the first victim.

[wtmusic]

22. Fine Mr. Facts

I'm posting links, you're posting none (I'd like to take your word for it, but I have this nasty habit of not trusting everything I read on DU).

You're saying these are just lazy, shiftless people who quit school because it's "boring", that can't get jobs because of "social rank" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean); I'm saying that's a load of racist crap.

Come back with links and we'll have a discussion.

[tocqueville]

26. do you read French ?

then I'll get you some links, from serious media.

it's another fact that THE RIOTERS which represent "0.1%" of the socially oppressed immigrant population are the way I describe them.

The guy with 5 years college doesn't get a job and it's a shame, but he doesn't throw gasoline on handicapped people in busses or beat up to death elderly. The 14-17 years-old do it. He his male, quitted school when he was 10, is on drugs and writes hate racist anti white rap. And everything is wrong.

Those fellows are the rioters, they are clearly identified. If it has been in the US they'd been shot dead. They are just using the situation : same situation than in NOLA : a few bad apples, some in between and a vast honest majority but unorganized and poor.

The oppressed millions you name, manifest their grievances peacefully on TV, media and through peaceful actions.

There is a difference to get a job to survive (let say $1500 a month), keep it and try to improve - or say "this is slavery" - why should I work.... I want to have the big bucks RIGHT AWAY... but to have that you need education. That's what I meant with "social rank".

[Name removed]

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[radwriter0555]

6. A REAL revolution would be excellent, not this kids playing at cars going

boom crap.

Although it has made the government in France open up the checkbook to improve social programs.

The USA needs a real revolution, with people in the streets, on strike and shutting down all things bush.

[Brundle_Fly]

4. Americans are very very well armed.

so I doubt it could go like it did in france.

[mb7588a]

5. couldn't that make it worse too? nt.

[cire4]

13. Yep....it would go 10 times worse....

More than one person would be killed...

[tocqueville]

17. you have a major point here

Europeans on the whole are very reluctant to use real force against their own citizens. I would take a regular use of firearms against the police to trigger a reaction like we saw in NOLA.

Besides the rioters have a feeling of impunity. These guys don't understand what it is to have their asses real kicked, due to decades of non-existent repression of minor crimes.

So as sson they see a police trying to stop them to even commit the slightest misdemeanor, they cry foul.

[DanCa]

7. I am expecting something if they over turn roe.

Than all hell will break loose.

[Hekate]

18. I seriously doubt it. Pro-choicers don't riot; and pro-lifers...

... only terrorize individuals. "Pro-life" extremists like to mob women entering and leaving clinics, shoot doctors and stalk their families -- but they don't riot, as such. Pro-choice people sign petitions and march on Washington -- we don't riot, period.

SCOTUS and the states combined may end up rendering Roe vs. Wade functionally impotent and null, rather than overturning it. The states are more than halfway there already. It's important to Bush's extremist base that he keep promising them that Roe will be overturned, but chances are it will remain on the books, only defined away.

Hekate

[LSK]

8. it could happen in a region, but i dont see it going nationwide n/t

[nosmokes]

10. i first crossed the border into mexico in 1970 at juarez,

and from where the rich live in mansions and have 'help' that answers the door and drives their limos around town and acts as bodyguards you can look right up into the hills a half mile or so away and people are living in caves - no water, no electricity, no heat. i'm gobsmacked every day that the headline isn't revolucion begins in mexico. but it has been like that for quite a while now. criminy, the revolutionary party is now called the institutional revolutionary party - that's how fucked up things are there. but they're comfortable enough to live with it i suppose, just like we were comfortable enough to accept the election results in'04, unlike the ukranians that stood out in the freezing tempatures of kiev for weeks until they got justice.

[enid602]

11. LA

The LA riots were a shame, but they did bring about a lot of changes. South-Central, which had previously been 45% African-American, is now 15% black, while the citywide percentage of blacks remained even at 10%. PR money spent by the city was cut drastically, and is now used to promote LA's diversity rather than just Hollywood/Beverly Hills/movie stars/surfers. Redlining is now a thing of the past, and housing and conveniences (markets, libraries, etc) have sprung up in South-Central. Rail lines were built in inner-city neighborhoods. The police has a long way to go towards representing all city residents, but progress has been made.

The real shame is that these important changes were not possible until the riots. Large cities that have so far resisted intergration are most at risk for this kind of violence.

[Selatius]

12. The last time it happened was when King was assassinated

I believe the misery people suffer everyday would have to be pretty high before they decide to riot. The only way I'd see people rioting is if the US were in a massive depression and then an incident of police brutality were to inflame already tense situations. Desperate people do desperate things, and crushing poverty is one way to make people desperate. Racism or police brutality would be the spark that lit the fire. Another could be if another draft lottery is announced. The implication is that the poor would fight as the wealthiest have always found ways to dodge the draft.

Hurricane Katrina laid bare to the world our problems with race relations and the issue of poverty. Over a thousand people died, and that did not result in mass rioting in the poorest neighborhoods of America's cities.

[Historic NY]

14. They have many times.......

sometimes they are confined to only one city or community. During the 60's it was more wide spread.

[snot]

15. just tonite I was SO wishing it would happen, w/ Hummers first! nt

[mb7588a]

25. well, i'm nonviolent, so how 'bout a Hummer sit in?!

I'm sure they're comfortable. :)

[JI7]

19. probably not as widespread

there has always been a difference between France and the United States and their protests ,rioting , etc.

it goes back to the days of the revolution in both nations.

[flyarm]

23. yes and have!!

watts riots 1965,

newark and detroit riots of 1967

L.A. rodney king riots 1992 that really weren't about rodney..but suppression of the poor..rodney was the catalyst.

kent state 1970

[WI_DEM]

24. or the Watts riots of 1965

Sure it could happen here.

[oasis]

27. One more fraudulent election and that'll about do it.