A child molester has been installing our floors - help

[Ayesha]

I am extremely freaked out and don't know what to do. My partner and I are a lesbian couple, both physically disabled. We recently decided to get Pergo-type flooring installed in our condo here in L.A. and found a small company to do the job. Well, to make a long story short, we've gotten to know (or so we thought) the 2 guys that have been doing the work, let's call them JB and his assistant, JP. JB is friendly, but less talkative, while JP likes to discuss music, philosophy, and his Christian faith, which seems genuine and not of the ultra-fundy variety. He's very intelligent, and we found ourselves growing surprisingly fond of him. He talks about wanting to start a non-traditional ministry to reach out to those who have been rejected, and has mentioned being in trouble with the law. He said that he could have gotten 8 years but he appealed to the judge for leniency and got probation. I had the impression that it was drugs, but tonight, after noticing on a piece of paper how his last name is spelled, I looked him up on the CA sex offenders registry website just in case.

He's on there. For "lewd and lascivious acts with a child under 14" and "sex penetration with foreign object: victim under 14 years". It's his picture, we're 100% sure it's him, and I'm freaked out.

They've almost finished the job, and we're not happy with the way they did the trim/molding and were thinking of hiring somebody else to re-do that part anyway. But there are 2 cracked tiles in the bathroom that need to be fixed, and they haven't grouted it yet, so they're going to be suspicious if we suddenly say we don't need their help anymore. I don't really feel comfortable telling JB that we don't want JP here again, because we're not sure how he'd react, and though I can't find JB on the sex offender registry, he could be a criminal too and I can't find out because his last name is too common for a background check.

These guys know where we live (obviously) and they know about our green medicine, so to speak. They think of us as nice Midwestern girls, and seem to really like us; in fact JP seems to want to be friends with us, which obviously won't be happening now! But now that we know this information, we're very wary of pissing them off. I'm not comfortable having them at the house again, but I'm not sure what to do to make that happen safely. They have their money from us, so that's not an issue, but how can we end things without them knowing why?

I feel so conflicted about the whole thing. I hate child molesters with a passion - I think they are the absolute scum of the earth, bacteria on pond scum. I know the recidivism rate is high, and whenever the topic has come up in one of my classes (I'm getting my MA in psychology), the professor has agreed that they rarely change their ways. I don't know the details of JP's crime, but the offenses just as listed are horrific - it's not like it was indecent exposure or something where he could have wandered drunk or drugged out of his mind and wacked off in front of a kid or something. I feel icky that I hired them, that my money went to someone who raped a kid. And what about that poor child, who is traumatized for life while JP got probation? On the other hand...the guy really does not seem like a monster. He's sweet, humble, funny, and very bright. It's not a sociopathic, glib charm at all; in fact he's more awkward than anything. He told us that he was sodomized by his father when he was 7, so he was an abused child himself - and in hindsight, that plus some other things leads us to wonder if perhaps it was a boy he assaulted. His commitment to Christianity seems well thought-out and grounded, not something he is clinging to desperately or a scam to win people's trust. Much as I hate to say it, I wonder if he may deserve a second chance - but knowing what he did, I'm not comfortable being a part of that. Who would be? And therein lies the problem.

What the hell do we do with these people? I want to say lock them up and throw away the key, but as JP illustrates, it's not always so simple. Believe it or not, they are human beings, and a person who is intelligent, kind, and compassionate, who takes homeless people to nice restaurants for dinner and writes amazing poetry, can also rape a child under 14 with a foreign object. Trying to comprehend this is as mind-boggling as pondering the infinite proportions of the universe; I'm not sure I'll ever see the world the same way again, and I look back with longing at my former state of ignorance. It's a lot easier to think in black and white, which is why so many people do it. But I don't have that luxury on this issue anymore.

What would Jesus do? I believe that he would side with the child, as I do, but I also think that he would extend some level of compassion to a man like JP. And that is why, although I do not want to ever see JP again, I hope it can be done in a way that doesn't cause him to feel that no one can ever accept or forgive him. If he feels his life is hopeless, he will almost certainly commit more crimes, and I don't want to be the one who pushes him over the edge.

How should my partner and I handle this? How can we protect ourselves? We really are just a couple of nice Midwestern girls in so many ways, and this is way beyond anything we've experienced before.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Not Me]

1. That's a tough one.

I think honesty is the best response here.
Tell them that you hired them to do a job and you expect them to complete it fully and in a timely manner. And that the relationship won't go further than that.

If they press on, tell them what you know, and why you are uncomfortable with them.

[henslee]

2. Simply disengage. Let them finish the work. You don't need that

stress and energy in your life. Far fetched but what if you piss him off? Furthermore, you don't really know the cirucmstances and details of his conviction. Also, he is no longer a criminal and may in fact be trying to straighten his life out. Sad but true, it may pay to be a bit unavailable with hired help, at least at first. P.S. --- I lived in L.A, too for 20 yrs. Great town.

[rosesaylavee]

3. If it were me, I would ask them to complete the

work as that is what they have been paid to do. Fortunately, you are not in the position to judge him as a jury or judge has already done so. By all means, don't encourage the friendship as you are uncomfortable.

My sister's husband abused her children - didn't get the sentence he deserved IMO and we refer to him as 'he-who-shall-not-be-named' as we can't stand hearing his name around here any longer. (He was not repentant by the way)

But, that said, if someone is trying to turn their life around and fight a mental or physical illness, the least we can do is let them try to do it. Reinforcing the public shunning of him won't help him or the disease or whatever it is termed now. I say, use your new degree to study this and find a solution that we can all live with. It seems to me that we have victims creating more victims with this scenario and it is played out every day... this is not an isolated incident.

[FreedomAngel82]

69. I agree

This guy could've had just one time thing and now trying to really turn his life around such as with his religious beliefs. But I agree that you should just still be nice to them but let them clearly know that they're just there to finish the job since you feel too uncomfortable to be friends. Just let them go ahead and finish the job and pay them. I think that's really the only thing you can do. If you're uncomfortable with being with them a lone have a friend or someone with you and also if you're there with your partner and you guys didn't want to be a lone with them.

[Botany]

4. 4 things .....

because you are a lesbians you shouldn't worry about attack

do you have any strong male friends who can "pop over"
to be there when they are there?

do not let them come back when you are alone

let them finish the work and then cut ties

[Ayesha]

10. The problem is...

I am totally uncomfortable being around JP again based on what I know. I'm not good at hiding my feelings and they would know something was up.

We have a close male friend, but he works long hours and wouldn't be around when we'd need him. We do have a measure of safety in the form of our 4 dogs - but the dogs, including our highly protective one, know the guys now so I don't feel as confident that they'd defend us as I would if a random stranger tried to break in or something.

[Botany]

18. 4 dogs

and one is highly protective? You will be fine. As far as your feelings
are concerned ..... got to another room for "important work" that has to
be done. Then the only "acting" you have to do is when they come and
when you hand em a check.

[Ayesha]

23. Beautiful Lab

One of ours is a Chocolate Lab. Not the protective one, I might add, although she did bark furiously at a drunk guy passed out on the sidewalk next door on Halloween.

http://pics.livejournal.com/ayesha/pic/0000xz81/s640x480

[FreedomAngel82]

72. Aw

She's so cute!

[FreedomAngel82]

71. I agree

If one of the dogs are protective if they can sense something is wrong with one of you who are there they will protect you. I think that's for sure. And yes a very pretty dog indeed. Maybe you can try sitting down and talking to the dog and letting them know your feelings about this person and that you feel you might need protection. If you talk they'll listen. :)

[lostexpectation]

5. let them finish the job

as best as you can get them to, say nothing, those are pretty nasty convictions but how is a sex offender who is unemployed going to help anyone.

I don;t what you said to the guy if you brought it up.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Have them fix the tiles in the bathroom

From your post, I assume you and your partner don't have any minor children living with you, or you would have mentioned them. This, as I understand it, is the end of the contract you have with them, and once business is over, there is no need to call them back.

Being in the field you are in, you probably know more about child molesters than I do, but I've always had the impression that they don't try to prey upon older people. If you suspect this one might, I'd have the locks changed on the doors if that will make you feel more comfortable.

Remember that this man is, for whatever reason, out on probation, and thus, legally, should be allowed to try and make a legal living. If he slips up, he knows he's going in the slammer. You don't really know the circumstances of his crime (and if it was as horrific as you say, I can't imagine how he would be out on probation), but the judge and jury who heard the case apparently decided he was no threat to society.

If he does try and make contact with you after the job is up, I'd politely brush him off. Say you're glad he's Christian, but you're a member of another denomination and happy there, or whatever it takes. Under no circumstances should you mention what you've found out.

And when you have anyone work in your home again, check out the company. Are they bonded? Here in Arkansas, pest control companies must be bonded, and I know if an operator or one of his techs has a prison record, that bond suddenly becomes sky high, so ex-cons usually aren't hired (never hired by my company).

[Demit]

7. Your relationship with them started as a business one.

Go back to thinking of it as a business relationship, and let it end when the work is done. You don't owe them anything else beyond payment for services rendered. I'm sure you have had experiences in the past with winding down relationships you didn't want to pursue--you become "too busy" to socialize with the person, start acting distant, etc., until they get the idea.

I don't understand why you feel vulnerable. Why are you worried about protecting yourselves?

[MojoXN]

8. Judge not, lest ye be judged...

Regardless of how you feel about child molestors, this man has done nothing wrong to you, and you know next to nothing about the facts. Keep an open mind, rather than acting from fear and revulsion.

That's my advice.

MojoXN

[Poppyseedman]

9. What would Jesus do?

Jesus would tell you to follow the law.
This guy is out of the system, a judge and possibly a jury let this guy out for some reason. Maybe it was the right thing, maybe not.

Ask them to finish the job as Jesus would and disassociate yourself from them as nicely as possible.

It could be this guys christian conversion has really changed his life.

As for that "green medicine" See line one

[Matariki]

89. Jesus would tell you to follow the law?

where did you pull that one out of? not the bible, surly. if i remember correctly, he ignored quite a bit of Roman law, which was why they strung him up.

[0rganism]

147. Not to mention pushing a radical reinvention of Jewish laws

Hey, say what you like about Jesus, but the guy had to have some serious stones to declare himself to be the Passover sacrifice.

[murray hill farm]

11. Geeeezzzzzzzzz, that i a tough one!

I dont know that you owe them honesty..and it sounds like the job is about completed..so, i would just ride it out being nice, being civil, but relating to both of the men..as people who have temporarily walked through your life...and as men who are working for you to redo your floors..and when they are done with the work, just let it be..and while not being rude, if they or he initiates further contact...just be busy with your life...etc..and he will eventually get the hint tht it was a work related and temporary connection. You can wish him well...send with your prayers and wishes and positive thoughts for his journey in life...not verbally...just in your thoughts, of course..ha! good luck! It is a tough one..and you are a thoughtful and introspective person..and for that reason, it is easy to get caught into anothers life...but this guy has his own journey...let it go if you can.

[EFerrari]

12. Fwiw, you are under no obligation to explain or defend any

decision you make to these contractors. If you decide the work is done, it's done. You've fullfilled your part of the contract, unless it explicitly states that you two will adopt this man.

Real pedophiles can often be engaging. That's how they manipulate kids in the first place.

I hope, like you, that this man is bettering his life. And you are not obligated to like him or to allow him into your home.

[Spinzonner]

13. You don't say how old he is and how long ago the crime happened

though your statement about the photo suggest it wasn't a very long time ago.

Some sex crimes can be between juveniles or a juvenile and a near juvenile (ie just over 18). While that doesn't excuse it at all it does put a different aspect to the situation. Without more detail it isn't clear where his crime would fit.

It's hard to imagine that a judge would give probation only for that kind of activity unless there was some mitigating circumstances - or he's lying about that aspect. What, if anything, does the registry say ?

The fact is that a lot of what you are saying is speculation and worst case at that.

But you have to do what you are comfortable with with respect to your own relationship with him. You really have no say in the legal aspects past or present.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[qanda]

22. You really shouldn't do that

You never know who is reading this and he get contacted from anyone who can click on that information. I just don't think that was necessary.

[liberalnurse]

14. Too bad for the low-eyes!

Get rid of him because they are always looking for that next sandbox to raid....they NEVER stop....end of story.

This is from a Jail Nurse Supervisor of a 1,400 inmate population. :yoiks:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. Low-eyes?

In prison, child molesters are called "short eyes."

I never heard "low-eyes" before.

[liberalnurse]

86. What ever, their eyes are fixed

in the wrong damn direction anyway you say it. A pair of black eyes sound good at the moment.

[dr.strangelove]

134. I've heard both

I've heard "short eyes" mostly in northeast and CA. I've heard "low eyes" down south.

[HereSince1628]

16. This is another post that implies sex offenders can never be released

safely into society.

I don't know if they can or can't be, but if that is the way people really feel, then legislatures needs to put it into law. It would be a whole lot more honest of society.

I'm not judging the OP, I can understand why she feels the way she does.

I'm just saying there is a huge issue to be addressed and society is ducking it. Releasing people only so that they can be punished by ostracism and regular displacement seems wrong.

[Walt Starr]

37. I could go along with life with no possibility of parole

The DP is something I could support for babay rapers, too.

[HereSince1628]

49. IMO We have to do something. What we have no amounts to

subjecting them to a form of state sponsored vigilantism we force the offenders to register so they can be easily identified and then let the community run them from neighborhood to neighborhood.

[Turbineguy]

17. There are people knowledgeable on DU

We now have, I believe some 2 million people in prisons. At some point these people will get out. How well they are assimilated into society will be crucial to all of us.

That does not mean you have to be friends with them.

You have a contractor/customer relationship. It need not go any further.

Before I brought any of these other issues up, I would have to be completely sure that the past you found is of this man. To be accused of something like that falsely is indeed terrible. But if true, maybe in some way he's trying to atone. Why put a hindrance in that? Obviously the Justice system, imperfect as it is, has dealt with him.

How good would any of us be in handling this? Should we expect ourselves to be capable of this? As an MA candidate this situation would obviously be of interest, but this is not a textbook example, it's a real live person.

He's a guy doing a job, you're "a nice Midwestern girl". He needs to do the job well so he can go on to the next job and do it well.

After the job is done, maybe talk with somebody in the police who handles these things and tell them your impressions.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[lonestarnot]

19. Complete the business relationship. End of story.

[Poor Richard Lex]

20. There could be extenuating circumstances

I don't know which state you are in, but in my state, where I am a criminal defense lawyer, object penetration includes fingers so it might not be as bad as you think.

Also, although this person is an adult now, the incident may have happenned when he was a minor himself - ex 16 y/o with a 13 or 14 y/o girlfriend.

Criminal cases are public record in my state, so if you really want to know the details, go to the courthouse where the conviction took place and ask to review that file.

for the record, child molesters creep me out too, something fierce.

[Walt Starr]

39. ANY penetration is RAPE

Sorry, the guy is a baby raper and deserves no pity.

[liberalnurse]

87. Bingo......

Give that man a Starr! O8)

[Seeker30]

117. I find it odd

that you are a nurse, yet you have a deep hatred for complete strangers who are sick.

[MarsThe Cat]

118. even when it's consenual...?

i'm sorry- but without knowing ALL of the circumstances it's incredibly wrong to pass judgement.

[progdonkey]

21. have them finish the work...

I can only imagine how uncomfortable it would be, as I've never been around anyone (I knew) was a sex offender, but unless you feel like he misled you or something, there's really no reason to bring up his conviction. There's no point prematurely ending the work (and ending it on an uncomfortable note, especially), unless you truly don't feel safe with him around.

Let them finish the work, end everything on an amicable note, and don't call them again to have work done if it makes you feel uncomfortable. As far as they'd be concerned, you were just a friendly client for whom they did some floor work, and they should only expect to hear from you again if you need some more work done.

Good luck, whatever you choose to do!

[sandnsea]

24. Do you have children?

If you don't, I can't figure out what the problem is. If they're doing the job you hired them to do, let them finish it. You're not responsible for the justice system.

[Ayesha]

25. No

but we plan to eventually, and my partner works with them, so we take crimes like these very seriously and very personally.

[MojoXN]

26. I thought that this might help...

The text of the laws that he violated:

288. (a) Any person who willfully and lewdly commits any lewd or
lascivious act, including any of the acts constituting other crimes
provided for in Part 1, upon or with the body, or any part or member
thereof, of a child who is under the age of 14 years, with the intent
of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust, passions, or
sexual desires of that person or the child, is guilty of a felony and
shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for three,
six, or eight years.

(j) Any person who participates in an act of sexual penetration
with another person who is under 14 years of age and who is more than
10 years younger than he or she shall be punished by imprisonment in
the state prison for three, six, or eight years.

Here's the link --> http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=281-294

The fact that he also has an alias is disturbing. He most likely has other, non-sexual convictions as well. I would be cordial while the work s being completed, but the sooner that this guy is gone, the better.

MojoXN

[Ayesha]

29. Thank you

Although it certainly affirms the creepiness factor and seems to preclude any less-horrible explanations, such as statutory rape, it's better to know.

[zanne]

27. I'm in a similar (kind of) situation...

I'm a caregiver for my mom, who has Alzheimer's. She has two regular nurse's aides who come in every day (one morning, one evening), to get her up in the morning and put her to bed at night, basically. Her evening aide is someone I've grown quite fond of; I know her kids now and I even write to one of her kids regularly (she's in Iraq). This aide is liberal-minded and just recently got her American citizenship (she's Russian). A few days ago, we were talking about illness in the elderly, and she said "Do you know where all the evil things in the world come from"? She's very religious, so I thought she's say something like Satan or a lack of values, but she said "It all comes from the Jews". You could knocked me over with a feather. I know that my face turned white because she said "Are you OK?" After I picked my jaw up from the floor, I told her what I thought about that and told her it wouldn't be a good idea to talk about that in any other homes she visited. She went into a biblical rant, going back thousands of years. I had to cut her off & tell her I didn't want to hear about it. I'm still reeling; I haven't heard anything like that in my life. My mom loves her (She's very good with my mother). This aide actually helped my mother come out of a bad depression by sitting with her on her own time and talking with her. What do you do when someone you've grown to be fond of turns out to be a Nazi? Sorry to go on like this on your thread, Ayesha, but I think I know what you're going through. I don't know what to do, either? Do I conveniently let this slide or do I walk my talk?

[Ayesha]

28. Tell her you're Jewish ;)

Might cause her to re-think her prejudices. Seriously though, this sounds like ignorance more than anything, perhaps you can subtly and gradually open her mind?

[zanne]

35. Thanks, Ayesha.

She knows I'm not Jewish. I would love to be able to open her mind, but when people start quoting the Bible to bolster their point of view, I get a little discouraged.

[Spinzonner]

30. Anti-Semitism has historically been endemic in Russia and

its successors. Communism didn't change that and even institutionalized it in some respects despite the prsence of large numbers of Jews in the professions.

It isn't Naziism but it is ignorance and unacceptable.

You have a choice: try to educate her about her conditioning and it's inappropriateness or leave it as verboten in your presence and home, assuming you don't want to terminate her relationship with you over it.

[zanne]

38. Thank you for that info, Spinzonner

Looks like I have a little research to do.

[akarnitz]

41. Tsarist spooks wrote the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

and Hitler was all too happy to use it. Anti-semitism has always been as strong in Russia as anywhere else in the world.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

70. You betcha

Our shul had a big sign on its front lawn about "Soviet Jewry," back in the days.

But I never could look at it without thinking of Emily Litella on Saturday Night Live, going on about "Soviet Jewelry."

Poor Gilda. Gone 'way too soon.

[rockymountaindem]

111. I knew this woman from Japan last year

She was visiting my university after living in Japan her whole life. One day she told me that she had a friend in a class from Slovakia who told her that "The Jews run everything" and the Japanese woman asked me if that was true. Anti-Semitism does have a way of sticking around, don't it.

[pox americana]

31. If you want to make a clean break...

get into a little tiff about some unfinished work, or the bill. That will make them never, ever come around again. :)

[jbnow]

32. You wouldn't want him

around your children if you had them there. Sounds like you don't.

You can choose what to do next. Should they fix the trim/molding at no more cost because it was done wrong?
Let them finish but as others said, work in another room. Claim not to feel well and withdraw. That won't even be a lie since you don't feel good around him now.

Or if you can't handle it end it. You can tell them you have a friend that can take care of the rest or whatever.

I agree with others that an unemployed molester isn't better off then an employed one. You wouldn't have hired them if you knew but now they are near done. Your choice.

I think I would back off the social side a lot, but not get into the molestation charge unless you see him getting friendly with neighbor kids.

I do understand why you feel shocked and freaked out learning who has been in your home working. They are often friendly and charming, that's why they are good at it. I am not accusing him of more, just speaking in general. We like to think of those who do very bad things as some strange and dark character unlike regular people.
But here one is, someone you liked, someone anyone would like.

[hyphenate]

33. While I can understand your consternation

what ever happened to forgiving? If you hadn't looked him up, you would never have known about his previous record, and it sounds a lot like you thought he was an OK guy until that point.

Everyone has to live, everyone has to make his or her own way in the world, and perhaps he is finally on the straight and narrow. Forgiveness is what me might need to get his life back on track, and like you said, you don't know the details of his offense. Sometimes, a parent will prosecute a boyfriend if the girlfriend is under 16, and if his prison term was as short as it was, perhaps that is the case.

Openminded objectivity is called for, not hysterical conclusions. Regardless of your own sexual orientation, you have not been in a position (from your post) to be involved with this guy on that level, and it really doesn't have a lot to do with it, anyhow.

We are supposed to live and let live. If we put ourselves in a position of intolerance, especially as it regards other, ordinary people like this, we are only showing that the pukes thoughts are in your own head, with the massive weight of intolerance and bigotry looming.

Let them finish their job. You will not have to see them again when the job is finished. At that point, the "problem" will "end" and no nastiness will have surfaced. Let it go, and you will be the better human being as a result.

[Meldread]

34. My advise?

Let them finish their work. You paid them to do a job, and regardless of what he's done or will do you've already given him your money.

I mean, yeah that sounds kinda harsh... but really what can you do? If you are uncomfortable being around him because of what you know, arrange to have someone else watch over them while they do the work. You can have them give some type of excuse about you having business to deal with or something.

If you can't do that, and can't hide your feelings... just be honest. If nothing else it'll give him a chance to explain his side of the story. For all you know, the charges might be bogus and based on hearsay. (Not likely, but it is within the realm of possibilities.)

Just explain to him, that he mentioned he had been in trouble with the law, and you were curious... so you did a internet search to find out what he did.

What would Jesus do? Well he was a "turn the other cheek" and "forgive" kind of guy. Considering he was also a carpenter I doubt he would have met JP to start with... but that's beside the point. I think in the end he'd let him finish his work and at the very least give him a second chance. Besides, it isn't like you have children running around so you don't have to worry about them. If you feel unsafe make certain that you have a phone nearby and a friend over while they work.

...and I think this is an interesting lesson that you've learned. Most criminals aren't the monsters they've been painted out to be, unfortunately that still does not mean they are good people.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. What's the problem?

Sounds like you violated Rule Number One of Home Improvements: you spent too much time talking with the hired help. That's almost always a big mistake. They're there to work for you, not to become your friends.

So, what's the big deal? He's a convicted felon who's, presumably, done his time. You know nothing beyond that, nothing at all. You have no kids, so why all this angst?

How his record ties in with the quality of the work escapes me. If there's something not done properly, have them re-do it.

You've muddied the landscape, I think, by making this a personal matter, when, in fact, it's only a business deal, and as far as "handling" anything, I'd say you snooped into the personal life of another company's employee, and it's none of your business.

Get the job done, and be happy with it. The rest of it has nothing to do with you and your partner.

[radwriter0555]

40. I have to agree.

And don't have a thing to add.

For once.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. Oh, come on

Say SOMETHING.

Defend child molestation, or something.

Go on.

PLEASE...............

;)

[radwriter0555]

115. Nope. You said it all with absolute perfection... Why try to improve

on something so eloquent and accurate?

(And I don't defend child molestation in any way, shape or form, for the record.)

But we could argue the merits and pitfalls of that nasty little Waco incident, just to stir things up...

Cheers!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

132. Ah.........

(That was a joke, about defending child molestation.)

You flatter me, dear one.

Back atcha, toots!

[Poll_Blind]

42. I agree.

After reading the initial message I had a generally disagreeable reaction on a number of fronts (not disagreeable twoards the poster but to the reaction the poster had). You've summed it up nicely.

I think my main feeling is after you've served your time in jail, you've paid your debt to society. Period. As a person who's never been arrested much less spent a night in jail, I say this.

Mixing the quality of his work and his past is post hoc ergo propter hoc, or so it seems.

PB

[Ayesha]

44. I think you misunderstood

I wasn't suggesting that his work was shoddy because he's a criminal, but that I'm afraid to object to the shoddy work because I'm afraid of him.

Please keep in mind here, I was raised in suburban/semi-rural Kentucky and Indiana in an upper-middle-class, pretty sheltered environment. I don't think I've ever known a convicted felon before, certainly not one who commited a violent crime. Since living in L.A. I've had my condo broken into while I was at work, and then last Dec. a (now former) caregiver stole and forged $4000 in checks. Now I'm dealing with sex offenders and it is just too much. This is absolutely terrifying stuff to me.

[neebob]

103. Terrifying stuff?

There's your answer. It's terrifying to you, doesn't matter why. Maybe you're terrified for reasons you aren't even aware of - things your subconscious mind is picking up. It's an instinct; learn to trust it.

[RobinA]

145. Your Degree of Tolerance

is your own business, but I'd say that you are in for a rude awakening as a psychology major. If you can only deal with fellow upper-middle classers from a sheltered environment, you are going to be limited in what you can do out there in the mental health field.

[Scout1071]

47. I would want to know this info if I had kids and was considering him.

The problem is that he has access to people's homes - and therefore their children in this type of job.

I'm torn. If that's his specialty, I don't want to keep him from making a living. Especially if he's paid his debt. But he wouldn't take one damn step in my house if I had kids.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

51. The majority of child molesters

are :::::: drum roll ::::: family members.

So, what's the big deal?

[Scout1071]

54. The big deal is that they are child molesters with access to children.

That's a big fuckin' deal to me.

And yes, I know that many times it's the dirty, disgusting uncle, but doesn't mean there aren't predators our there in jobs such as this waiting for their next opportunity. They are everywhere. When I was a kid our piano tuner was eventually convicted of molesting children. You know what? My mom got a clue when he asked my little sister to sit on his lap while he tuned the piano. My mom kicked his arse out of our house. Only a short time later he was convicted of molesting a young girl in a house he worked in. Same thing with a man who worked for my step dad. He spent a few years in prison. Had my mom known, he would have never worked in our house. And rightfully so. These men are predators. Pure and simple. And spending time in prison does not seem to curb their appetite.

No way I hire this guy if I have kids. Sorry, but this is where I draw the line. With most convictions I agree that people should not be punished further after serving time. But these men are just fucking sick and yes - they often repeat.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

55. Yeah, well,

if you think that's what you have to do to protect your as-yet-unborn children, you better work first within your family and make you know everything - EVERYTHING - about every member, male and female.

So, two lesbians with no kids are all exercised because a guy with a child molesting record is putting down some tile in their place?

Makes no sense. Comes a point where a debt is paid to society and a person is entitled to earn a living. You don't want to hire him, don't.

But, as I said, you better remember that he's someone's brother, uncle, cousin, just like you have in your family.

So, when you have kids, who will you leave them with for that afternoon or that one hour? You'll see things very differently when you have kids and the practicalities of life trim your current level of agitation. You simply have to be able to trust someone sometime. Not the tile guy, but someone, sometime.

[Scout1071]

59. OldLeftieLawyer -

I deeply respect your posts in general. And I fully understand what you are saying. The author of this thread shouldn't feel threatened and should let him finish the work. She may not want to be alone in the room with him and that is fine - she has a right to feel that way.

I know this guy is someone's uncle, brother, cousin, etc. It's scary. I guess it bothers me that he is in job where he has access. That may be his trade, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that people with children might be hiring him without knowing the facts. I understand what you are saying about him having paid his debt, but I'm extremely uncomfortable with people like him having jobs that put him in other people's home and therefore creating access to their children.

My feelings on this just simply aren't going to change. Child molesters are so pure fucking evil I just don't care. I know they need help because they likely endured their own molestations as a child, but I wouldn't want them anywhere near me. Kids or no kids.

Sorry. Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

On a side, I would like to say that I generally enjoy reading your perspective - even in this case.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

62. I understand your outrage completely, I really do

And thanks for your kind words.

My point, which I'm not making well, is that, without our knowledge or consent, we let far worse into our homes every day. Evil is not confined to child molesters, and maybe what's so utterly horrifying about them, beyond the predatory and heinous nature of their offenses, is that they look like One Of Us.

So do rapist. So do murderers. So did the priest and the minister. So does the nun who beats up kids without their parents' knowing about it. So does everyone.

The world's full of danger, and I know that - maybe better than normal people, having lived my professional life amidst people who work with criminals. I know that. I fully understand your position. Truly. And I respect it.

This particular situation, though, with two women who have no kids - that's the part that scares me, because it was a case of someone snooping (ah, ya gotta love them Internets, no?) into a relative stranger's private life, finding public information about them, and then freaking out - for no good reason.

See, I believe in a certain kind of forgiveness. There just comes a point where someone who's not doing anything wrong must not be condemned because of what he did in the past. Certainly you will never leave your kids in the presence of a known child molester.

But, don't leave them alone with any priests, either.

Thanks. We can and do disagree, but this was just gorgeous. Thank you.

[bloom]

150. "for no good reason"

While I agree that the person should finish his work and that it would have been best to not get too friendly to begin with - there are a couple things I disagree with.

One - Ok - we don't know the details - but it doesn't sound like the guy actually DID do the time that one might expect a person to do for that. For instance - I know someone in a similar situation who will be in for 16 years. THAT seems like more of an appropriate punishment than probation. So a person might feel like the person has NOT "done his time".

Two - People have every right to look up info on people who are doing work in their house - and I don't think it's a bad idea.

Three - The OP wrote:
On the other hand...the guy really does not seem like a monster. He's sweet, humble, funny, and very bright. It's not a sociopathic, glib charm at all; in fact he's more awkward than anything.

As someone else mentioned - a child molester/con-persons ability to deceive people into thinking they are wonderful is how they get away with stuff. I think the OP was freaked out that she was taken in. I think that is what the problem is. Someone realizing that they can't trust people who seem so charming - and that they can fall for the con. (The person I know who is jail was quite charming as well.)

[LisaL]

60. Yes, I agree.

People, especially people with children should be very careful who they let into their house. Yea, the guy got to make a living, but he is on probation-what are the conditions of his probation. At this job, he is likely coming in contact with kids in their homes. Sure doesn't sound like a good situation to me.

[LisaL]

61. The big deal about what? Are you implying child molestation is

no big deal? Or that since majority of child molesters are family members, it's no big deal inviting stranger child molesters over to molest your kids?

[Poll_Blind]

91. See this is why I find DU a great place to have a discussion. Just...

...because someone disagrees with you they'd never, say, imply that you believe that the most heinous of crimes is a trifiling matter.

(rereads lizzy's message) "Oh..."

PB

[Marr]

57. Agreed.

Simple business transaction.

[TahitiNut]

76. Agreed.

:thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

88. For the Most Part, I Agree

However. If someone told you they were raped by their dad at age 7, I'd think it would hurt that person tremendously if you were to cut off all contact when the job was finished. Most people don't discuss such confidences out of the blue.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. I just looked you up this morning

We suddenly wondered was Crisco was made of.

You're not dangerous, we found out, but you're not white icing, as I found out when I was a small child ............

Between you and me, Crisco, I'm starting to think this post was a hoax.

But, some interesting exchanges have come of it, so it was a success.

Cheers, Vegetable Shortening Person.

[NashVegas]

94. LOL

Sorry about the icing thing.

[bloom]

151. "I'd think it would hurt that person tremendously"

I think that is part of the "con" - get sympathy, etc. - get the person to feel "obligated".

[Danger Duck]

43. Child molestors

won't pose a threat to you. If you don't have children around, he will have no reason to ever see you again. Also, most molestors are afraid of their own shadow. They were usually molested themselves, and interacting with adults is not a strongsuit. Don't worry, take a deep breath, pay them, and you'll never see them again.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

45. Tell them you got a great job offer in another town and you

and your S.O. will be moving very soon (this will take care of ending an extended friendship). Then tell them you have a buyer for the house, but the buyer has examined the trim/molding, etc., and they would like it redone (this will take care care of your embarrassment for having to tell them that their first job was crappy). Let them finish, pay them, and bid them a fond farewell.

Yes, you will have some guilt about not being truthful with him, but then again, he's not your mother. And he's not really your problem. His intimate confessions make me wonder whether that isn't what he really is after.

[BiggJawn]

46. Leave your Condo, and burn it to the ground

It's TAINTED.

<grumble>

"although I do not want to ever see JP again, I hope it can be done in a way that doesn't cause him to feel that no one can ever accept or forgive him."

After the job is finished, you DON'T have to ever see him again. Either suck it up and treat him professionally, or face up that he's gonna figure out why you've grown cold to him, and he *WILL* "...feel that no one can ever accept or forgive him."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

52. Nice

I like the way you think. Burning is ALWAYS the perfect solution to unsolicited personal aggravation.

Have one on The Pussycat, BiggJawn:

[BiggJawn]

66. I plead Historical Precedence.

"Civilized" cultures in the past have burned their "witches", and what are Sex Offenders, if not today's witches?

The JP's of this world will NEVER get a chance AFTER they've "paid thei debt" to society. Never. It's delusional to think otherwise.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

68. I agree

And it's wrong. Your witch characterization is spot on. I have theories about this, but they take too much time, and, ultimately, you already know all of it.

Except, maybe, for my theory about parents taking kids to restaurants, and how it ties in with convicted sex offenders.

Later.

[LisaL]

73. What debt to society are you talking about?

He never even gone to prison for molesting a child, he got probation.
I don't see freaking probation as paying a debt to society. And with job he got, he is able to get into people's homes and likely able to have access to their children.

[BiggJawn]

75. Well, then, you know what you have to do tomorrow.

Call your congresscritter and tell him you'll never vote to re-elect him if he doesn't sponsor a mandatory life sentence w/no parole for offenders.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither of us is going to change the other.

Make a STRONG case, now, you have all night to work on what you're going to say...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

79. Some long for the good old days,

when, instead of burning the condo, they might have been able to burn the person of whom they did not approve.

That's the problem with America - not enough respect for grand old tradition. Lynchings were good enough for the Klan, they ought to be good enough for us.

[JVS]

80. If the judge decided that probation would be the debt, then that's it!

The fact that he got only probation probably indicates that his actions were less severe than many of us are led to believe from the "child molester" label. Unless judges have started handing out probation for reasons other than they think that it is an appropriate punishment.

[JVS]

82. The OP has a moral obligation to stiff the guy on the bill.

Otherwise her money could be used to further the molestation of children. :eyes:

[neebob]

48. Why are you afraid?

Are you or your partner under 14? Sounds to me like something is off about the guy and you're questioning your judgment of his character. He sounds off to me, too - revealing that he was sodomized as a child, for one thing, and going on about starting a ministry for people who have been rejected with people he just met - and the fact that you're already attached to him and trying to get inside his head and struggling does suggest a glib sociopathic charm.

You sound a lot like me in 1998 and '99, re the abusive scumbag who had invaded and taken over my home. He was a criminal, too, only I couldn't explain what made me look him up in the offender database. And it was only just the tip of a huge, black, smelly iceberg. I'm lucky to be alive.

This is just some dude who's doing your floors, with no legitimate reason to reveal his life history or share his dreams and aspirations. You had a clear, screaming reason to look him up. And now you have a clear, screaming reason not to associate with him. Quit trying to convince yourself he won't hurt you because you're not a child. You and your partner are vulnerable. Get someone else to finish the job. It really is that simple.

It isn't about the particular crime you happen to know about. I could write an essay about how sociopathic bullshit works and why people fall for it. Suffice it to say I see a lot of material for such an essay in your post.

I'm not saying he will hurt you; I'm just assuming you're freaked out for good reason and you should, too. Again, this is just some dude who's doing your floors - not someone you have to accept or forgive, certainly not someone whose feelings you should be feeling responsible for. So why are you? Could it because he's made an extraordinary effort to ingratiate himself? And why would he do that? Believe me when I say you don't want to find out. Trust the little voice in your head that caused you to post this. Quit questioning and second-guessing yourself and protect yourself.

[Vanje]

53. Keep children away from him

let him do his work.

[LisaL]

56. If you don't have kids, you are probably o'key. Just let them finish.

But if you do, don't let them back in. Unless you want your child roaming the countryside with the hired help, aka Elizabeth Smart, or worse.

[cmd]

58. Follow the advice of Old Lefty Lawyer and ...........

if it doesn't work for you, then Big Jawn has the only other practical solution.

This guy is working for you. That is the end of the relationship. Let him finish the job, then cut all ties. You will be fine. However, if you let his past haunt you, then you will need to go the route of Big Jawn to get peace back in your life.

Well, maybe you could just move.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. Seems like a bad situation

How do you know though this JP guy is always nice? How do you not know that after you get to know him that he'll be really mean? Know what I mean? Sometimes people put on a face for other people than what they really are. I don't know what to do though with the situation. I don't want to give any wrong advice. :\

[notadmblnd]

65. Jesus would have forgiven him

if he's paid his debt to society and you have no children in danger, what's the problem? Even child molesters need to eat. At least he's working for his keep.

[LisaL]

67. Original poster is not Jesus, I presume.

:eyes:
As for debt to society, how did he pay it? He is probation, for crying out loud. He never even went to prison.

[notadmblnd]

74. if he wasn't convicted, how did he get in the registry?

I see this as a personal moral dilemma for the OP who's post asked the question WWJD? What I was taught about Jesus, is that he would have forgiven him.

If everyone takes the "shunning" attitude with this fellow, who knows, will he choose to commit more crimes in order to survive?

I'll say it again, IF he has paid his debt to society and she has no children in danger, what is the problem? If the dilemmar is too much for the OP, then perhaps in the future the OP would be wise to look up her next contractor in the Sex Offender Registry before she hires them.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

77. That's the point

Where does this persecution end?

And that's what it becomes once the person is out of jail, off probation. It becomes persecution.

Do we do this to convicted bank robbers?

Extortionists?

Murderers?

No.

Tells you something about what's driving some Americans, and it's deeply disturbing, at least for me.

[LisaL]

81. I wouldn't want any criminal to work in my house.

[JVS]

83. That's something to think about BEFORE they've started work

Unless you are willing to pay the agreed amount and have them leave the work unfinished.

[mrcheerful]

84. Well remember this

was the same thinking behind anti drug laws. Drugs were made illegal because latins and afro americans were using drugs and raping white women. Seems that fear of sex gets americans to enact the silliest laws without any thought or reasoning about the laws themselves. Just look at the list nation wide, the list was created under the Meagan law to protect children from dangerous predators. Well guess what? It's unable to do that because they list every sex crime and the dangerous predators are lost in the mix. This is just amounting to a list people can point their fingers at and say shame on you. Btw, the real silly thing everyone fails to realize is that the dangerous predators are not even on the list, they either give false addresses or don't bother to enter their names to the list. Its really amusing how people think just because its ''the law'' that means all will follow it. ROFLMAO, excuse me but when has that ever worked? The only people you find on the list are the people that realize they made a terrible mistake and are now trying to become honest, law abiding citizens.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

90. I don't know about that

"raping white women" part. I've never heard that one before.

I think drugs are just the latest in the bluenose attempt to keep Americans from enjoying themselves. Any country that countenances liquor and cigarettes but makes recreational drugs illegal is in the throes of some serious cognitive dissonance.

You're right, though, about what a mess this "list" is. People believed that naming names would somehow, magically, keep their children safe. It's failed. Kids are still being abducted, molested, murdered, and the few for whom Megan's Law works are the luckiest ones.

The really hard part for parents is realizing you have to toss your kids out into the world, and you cannot protect them from anything - not anything - especially themselves. You just have to bet that you taught them well and that they'll make the best decisions in the worst situations.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

[JVS]

78. Since you have no kids, don't sweat it. Let him finish, pay him, and...

never see him again.

[johnaries]

85. Here's what concerns me. I don't want to panic you, but,

As I understand it, some child molesters are not attracted to children so much as they are attracted to the "helpless".

You mentioned that you and your SO are both physically disabled. If he is attracted to the "helpless" he may see you and your partner as potential victims.

Of course, there is no way of knowing this one way or the other, and I don't think there is any reason to jump to conclusions or panic.

Although I agree that continued persecution after release is an issue that should be addressed in an open national discussion, I understand that most sexual predators (TRUE sexual predators, not including "sex offenders" who are more or less victims of circumstances) cannot be rehabilitated outside of drugs which essentially make them impotent.

Again, there is no way to tell if he sees you as potential victims, but beyond legal rhetoric you must take steps to protect yourselves.

Perhaps you can tell him that you've "run low on money" and have to decided to wait to have the work finished. Then, if he continues to try and maintain contact and you begin to feel threatened, you might consider a restraining order. Always, notify your neighbors an maybe they can help keep an eye out on you.

Don't panic and over-react, but I believe you should be careful and take steps to protect yourselves, just in case.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. Oh, for God's sake

Quick. Let's light the torches and storm the castle.

You cannot be serious.

[johnaries]

99. OLL, I always respect your opinion and love your posts,

and I agree that "sex offender registries" is an issue that I myself have ambivalent feelings about. But, in this case, I think that caution is warranted.

I'm not advocating persecution of this man, just advising that they be should be prepared and be careful.

If they were not disabled, I would not have posted this.

BUT, there is a possibility that they could be potential victims, and I am merely saying that it is better to err on the side of caution.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

106. Thank you for your kind words,

but in all my long life, I've yet to hear of a sexual predator who focused on disabled lesbians.

Murderes, yes. Thieves and extortionists, yes.

I agree with you about caution, but not when it becomes a matter of shutting down our basic humanity. Don't you think there's a whole lot that's fishy about this story?

The catch here is that the homeowners went looking for all of this, by trying to "make friends" with the workmen. If they'd just respected the roles of employer and employee, none of this would have ever happened.

If, in fact, any of it did. I'm having my doubts now.

We're all potential victims, and, as I posted elsewhere, we have NO idea what we're inviting into our homes when strangers enter. It's a scary world out there, indeed.

Again, thanks for your nice words, and isn't it grand that we can agree to disagree while exchanging opinions?

Cheers ..........

[neebob]

108. Skepticism is our friend, too -

just like the instincts that tell us something is wrong.

[Ayesha]

112. I assure you

I'm not making any of this up. Trust me, I have too many other things to deal with in my life to stay up all night posting about something that didn't happen.

BTW, we weren't trying to become friends with them at all, JP was just very friendly/chatty and it's pretty hard to ignore someone who is spending hours in your home. Plus it goes back to the Midwestern ethos, the natural friendly attitude that we were raised with that says you don't treat someone as inferior because they're "the help". So many well-off people in LA treat those in working class jobs like shit and it really bugs me.

I'm still trying to read through and process all the replies; thanks all of you, it's really been helpful.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrcheerful]

100. Remember

be a good commie turn in mommy? Well guess whats happening in the good old US of A?

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressivebydesign]

101. as a parent and a female I APPLAUD the registries.

But you're a libertarian, so you'll find any government instrusion to be unconstitutional. so.. never mind.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

107. I'm a parent, a female,

a grandparent, and a lawyer inside the system.

And I am hear to shatter your bubble.

Registries are a joke. They don't offer any protection to parents of children.

They do, however, enable the worst of what defines us as citizens to emerge in witchhunts and other deplorable behavior.

Sorry, but that's a fact.

[yurbud]

96. don't have them "fix" any mistakes--get someone else. a couple of tiles

are only a few bucks.

[yurbud]

97. Get PEPPER SPRAY and/or TASER depending on what you are comfortable with

[Leopolds Ghost]

110. Depends on what kind of tiles you're using. Most experts advise grout. n/t

[yurbud]

98. tell them when they finish the alarm installers are coming

[FrankX]

105. Ask an able bodied friend or two to be around until the job is completed.

You are right to be uncomfortable and could be in danger if alone.

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Consult your Home Repair Guide for Grouting Tips... few here can advise.

we're not happy with the way they did the trim/molding and were thinking of hiring somebody else to re-do that part anyway. But there are 2 cracked tiles in the bathroom that need to be fixed, and they haven't grouted it yet (...) What the hell do we do with these people? How should my partner and I handle this? this is way beyond anything we've experienced before.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Have you contacted any Home Handyman Help guides? What you'll need is a 12" router, a circular saw, grout, a grout spackler and a sponge. Be sure and use extra precautions when handling the saw. Goggles and gloves should be used. Also, leave a 1-inch gap between the flooring and the wall to allow for expansion and contraction. Have you selected replacement tiles yet? The Better Business Bureau could tell you if other customers have experienced similar problems with this company's workmanship.

That is the information you wanted, right? :-)

[Ayesha]

113. Update

We called JB this morning and told him that my cousin is coming into town and can finish the job (not actually true). I think he thought it was a bit odd but I doubt he guessed we'd found out about JP. We're changing our door code and being extra careful to keep all our doors locked just in case!

A friend of a friend just had his house re-done and is happy with it, so I've given him a call to find out who did the work. Hopefully we can find someone who does better work and doesn't rape kids! *shudder*

Thanks very much for all the advice and support.

[FrankX]

114. Good plan!!!

[grasswire]

116. if I may give you some advice........

I don't know how old you and your partner are, but I hope you will consider how much less life is worth living if you are living in constant fear and suspicion. Maybe the big city isn't for you.

My dear, I've counseled thousands of offenders and read 13,000 letters from prisoners. Never once did I hear of a pedophile attacking lesbian women.

Take a deep breath. It isn't possible to live in this world and be safe all the time.

[Ayesha]

121. It's definitely not...

Neither of us likes LA; we plan on moving in the next couple of years.

The thing is, he might not be a pedophile per se. Some men who molest children do so because they are helpless/vulnerable and not because they have a thing for kids. They're equally likely to violate an adult woman who is physically or emotionally weak. For example, on another site that I read that busts online predators, they caught a guy soliciting a supposed 13-year-old online (really one of their volunteers). When they tracked him down and the police arrested him it was discovered that he had a previous conviction for sodomizing a woman in a wheelchair.

I know it's not possible to be safe all the time, but I have had to deal with so many sketchy people since I've lived here, people who are dishonest, selfish, rude and self-centered, people with serious meth and cocaine addictions, etc. I know such people exist everywhere but there seems to be a higher concentration of them here.

[grasswire]

140. start packing

I have had to deal with so many sketchy people since I've lived here, people who are dishonest, selfish, rude and self-centered, people with serious meth and cocaine addictions, etc. I know such people exist everywhere but there seems to be a higher concentration of them here.

That, indeed, is what the world is. Full of "sketchy" people. I seriously think the city is not for you. Someone who feels as you do is likely to attract trouble, as "sketchy" people sense the fear and disdain you have.

Just a question now. All the lesbian women I know are tough as nails and would be able to handle themselves in just about any situation. No one would try to take advantage of them. You might want to work on that aspect of your personality.

[grasswire]

146. gack, I blew the italics

I meant to italicize just the first paragraph, not the whole thing.

[ultraist]

128. Good move, Ayesha.

I'm a small business owner and we don't take chances with child rapists. The fact is, they rarely recover and we are not willing to risk the safety of our tenants by hiring them.

This guy may well have other issues---raping children is about getting off on violent power trips and child rapists often do engage in other behaviors that satisfy their desire for controlling others.

I'd keep a strong boundary drawn betweeen you and him by being firm and professional, if he were to contact you again. It's important that he doesn't believe you are afraid of him yet you need not create a hostile situation with him.

Good luck.

[MarsThe Cat]

119. who would be comfortable helping give someone a second chance...?

any TRUE liberal.

i know I would.

shame on you and your partner.
making assumptions and thinking the worst of someone based on those assumptions. you know NOTHING of the circumstances surrounding the incident/charges, and yet you're more than ready to pass judgement...

yay, now i get to go to bed totally disgusted by the attitudes displayed by people posing as open-minded

[mrcheerful]

120. Yeah thats how I feel too

Funny how theres been investagation after investagation into how innocent people get forced into taking plea bargains for crimes they never committed. Also notice that nothings said about the MJ's and R kelly's out there that can buy their way out of anything. Oh yeah thats right, Law and Order shows the way real courts work now a days. And they wouldn't put it on TV if it wasn't true.

[Ayesha]

122. Depends

I would for any drug crime, or beating up someone in a bar while drunk, or burglary etc. But rape and child molestation are just too horrible. Much as I hope this guy's change is genuine, I must side with the victim here (and BTW my partner is a survivor of sexual assault.)

The statute says that for the charges he was convicted of, the victim was under 14 and the perp was over 10 years older, and there was penetration with a foreign object. I can't see any way in which a 13-year old and a 24-year old (minimum possible age diff and oldest possible child) could be anything other than sick and disgusting.

[MarsThe Cat]

125. two things-

first off, in your original post, you didn't say anything about a 10-year age difference...
secondly- a judge who was familiar with ALL aspects of the case gave him probation when it could have been 8 years.
but mainly- how is a person supposed to rehabilitate if people are going to write him off as a monster, end of story? you said yourself what a wonderful person you found him to be, but you're willing to judge him based on something in his PAST, that you really don't know all that much about...
bottom line- the attitude displayed by yourself and your partner still utterly disgusts me.

[ultraist]

129. Oh, BS marsthecat

Being a liberal doesn't mean you must risk your own safety to employ a child rapist.

Child rapists rarely recover and any one with any common sense, will consider the risks involved in hiring someone with this background and having them in their HOME.

[MarsThe Cat]

135. how exactly is the poster's safety at risk?

they have no children.
plus-
the person is NOT necessarily a 'child rapist'- that's the point...the poster has NO knowledge or info on the circumstances surrounding the case.
plus- the judge in the case(who IS familiar with the circumstances) saw fit reason to give the person probation, and NO jailtime- that says a lot, too.

being a liberal DOES mean having an open-mind when it comes to people- i.e.- free from prejudice & tolerant...look it up.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

123. Just wanted to let people know

I know from experience working in Labor/Construction/trade Jobs alot of times contractors/Owners hire ex-cons thru a state/federal funded rehab program. I don't want to get in a long story on here about it but this one company I worked for did just this, the owner had a fronted as a respectful christian, in reality he was a slimeball. He used this program to get cheap labor the deal went something like he would take these ex-cons in thru this program teach them a trade, all parties (owner, government, ex-con) agreed that he would take the ex-con on for 5 years of employment and the government would give him 8 thousand dollars a year to help pay for them work for him. He was paying them on average $10hr so added up 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, they made just under 21,000 a year, basically he's getting them for 13 thousand a year and we are making up the rest with our tax money :mad: :mad: :mad:

Where do I come into this well, I got a job working for slimeball, cause alot of the guys where former drug users & drug dealers, a few where cool people (successful Rehab), most where people you wouldn't want to spend 40 hours a week around. Anyways since one of his contracts was with a company that didn't allow ex-druggies on their property after 911 he had to find a couple normal people to work for him to keep the contract, I get hired and team I'm assigned to are a couple of guys that didn't do time for drugs, one was a deadbeat dad, the other I didn't find out till right before I quite was a child molester. Finding out this along with 101 other things about this company was the final draw I quit after 2 and half weeks of work. In the time I was working with this sicko I notice he had a hang just about every day, apparently he spent his weekend with a hooker wasting his whole paycheck, along with this he just was creepy as hell a couple of times the crew went to fast food place with the playgrounds for lunch he would want to sit next to window to look out side didn't realize then but he wanted to watch the kids out there. :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

So what I'm saying is a warning anyone who is uncomfortable around these kinds of people try to check out the people you hire to do work for you in your home or business, you never know who might hiring to do the job.

Stay Safe

[MarsThe Cat]

126. two questions-

do you KNOW that the guy wanted to sit by the window to "watch the kids out there", or is just an assumption on your part?
what exactly were the circumstances surrounding his molestation conviction?

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

156. reply to two questions

do you KNOW that the guy wanted to sit by the window to "watch the kids out there", or is just an assumption on your part?

I Can't read minds so I don't know what was going on in his head, but usually everyone would sit together while eating, if he was the first to go sit down everyone would go sit by him, if someone else was the first get their food and would sit somewhere else he'd still go to area closest to playground and sit there by himself while everyone else (4 or 5 guys) sat together. Little simple thing you don't really notice till after the fact.



What exactly were the circumstances surrounding his molestation conviction?

That I'm not really sure, I would hear this and that from the other employees, from what I got it was a pre-teen female family member, I don't know how long he served. I do know he lived in pay-weekly motels & had stuff in storage because he moved around alot, Which is another didn't notice till after the fact, cause being a convicted molester he couldn't live near a school and he wasn't in a neighborhood where his identity would have to be revealed. I know he was a senior employees since he was the foreman of the crew. He obviously still had issues in his head cause my first day working with him, a kid (18 Years old) smarted off at him, he takes and grabs the kid by the throat pins him against a wall and just starts yelling and cussing while choking him, another crew member and myself pull him off the kid, I tell him you better never try that crap with me cause your suppose to be a boss and not a head case, he just glares at me not saying anything.

[Mairead]

124. Since you've already taken action that pleases you, this is moot, but

it's not at all impossible that the age gap was indeed the minimum, that the young woman was passing for 16 or 17, and that the 'foreign object' was his finger.

If you're studying adult clinical, then you should already be aware that the evidence on recidivism is completely mixed and that, as OLL points out, these offender lists do not fine-tune. Prosecutors willing to sacrifice other people to further their own careers are undiagnosed psychopaths, and they are nowhere near as rare as they should be. Anyone running afoul of one can end up with their names on a list and their lives ruined forever ...for an offence that brings probation. Is that what happened here? The only way to know would be to unearth and study the trial transcript. But your positive reaction to him and the fact that he did get probation seems significant to me.

[BreweryYardRat]

154. Mmm-hmm.

it's not at all impossible that the age gap was indeed the minimum, that the young woman was passing for 16 or 17

This could very well be the case. I've met 14 year-olds who look like they're 18. Not much of a stretch there.

Also, like someone said upthread...you could have gone to the courthouse and looked up the details of his case. You didn't, and that's your right, but maybe you should have. Things aren't always black and white.

And if anyone tries to say I'm supporting child molestation, they can fuck off, because I'm not.

[noonwitch]

127. You don't have children, so you probably don't have to worry

Obviously, the guy got parole. Whatever you think about whether he should be allowed to or not, he did get out. Now, he needs to work and stay out of trouble.
It's a little freaky, but if he is not giving you cause to worry, don't.

[Mairead]

136. "the guy got parole"

No, what she said is that he got probation, i.e. no prison time, only a requirement that he prove by his behavior that whatever he did was a mistake, not a way of life. Whatever he did was considered minor enough, and his past record good enough, that the judge felt okay about not putting him in prison.

[ultraist]

138. And OJ got off completely

:eyes:

If someone gets a minor sentence, it does not necessarily mean that they didn't do something horrific. Maybe the victim was unable or unwilling to testify. Perhaps there was no way to bring in all of the evidence due to some technicality. There are a number of reasons why someone may get off easy.

Or, maybe the dirtbag simply had a decent attorney.

Furthermore, child rapists are not punished severely enough. In some states, if the rapist is related to the child, they are not even charged.

[Mairead]

148. And maybe OJ didn't do it.

It's always self-gratifying to imagine that we have a handle on The Truth about some issue, despite having no first-hand information at all. But it seems to me that that's a receipe for voluntary stupidity and for being led around by the nose by the owners of the consent industry, who manufacture our consent by filtering what we're allowed to hear. I don't know about you, but colluding with them seems like a fool's bargain, to me.

[bloom]

153. Judges can see the same cases

entirely differently.

Like the one judge who discouraged one child molester from taking the plea agreement - as if it were too harsh - to the judge that saw the same case a month later and thought the plea agreement was too easy.

Same case, same facts - different judges. (And it was interesting that the judge who thought the plea was too easy (if anything) was a woman - the judge who would have had the guy get a lighter sentence (probation?) was a man. Seems like a reason to have more women judges/prosecutors - to me.)

[CornField]

130. I would make a point of not being home

when they come to finish the job -- spend the day at the mall, the library, the museum, where ever -- and enlist the help of a male friend to come and oversee the end of the work.

It is very possible that the guy got a bum rap... it sounds like that might be the case given the probation.

It is very possible that the guy is also dangerous and has done the things he's been accused of doing.

There is no way for you to know now... so take yourself out of the equation. Let them finish and don't be present.

Now, the next time you go to hire a contractor, be sure to ask if they screen their employees for previous criminal conduct, especially sex crimes.

So sorry this happened. :hug:

[LeftHander]

131. Accuse him of molesting a child...Frame him....remove him...

Sirens!!! Flyers....canvass the neighboorhood. Picket his home.

Mount a NOT ON MY NEW FLOOR campaign...

Do anything you can do to SAVE YOURSELVES FROM THIS CRIMINAL who even though was punished is NO DOUBT ready to pounce on any child that comes near them...

SOund crazy....that is how you sound.

No really is it any of your business? Has done anything threatening? Is he stalking children?

For petes sake you don't even know the extent of the crime or what his punishment has been. Or the extent of his treatment. Or parole.

Try to recognize the dignity and inherent value in all people...even ones that have been punished for crimes.

[patcox2]

133. Sex offenders have among the lowest recidivism rates.

Take a deep breath and stop buying into the hysteria.

[halobeam]

137. I have always heard that the rate was shockingly high......

I looked this up, and couldn't figure out how to find this same report for 2005, (this happens to be 1994), but if you take a look at pg. 22 table 9.... at this link, maybe it would surprise you. Unless I'm reading this wrong, it looks like within 3 years, they are back in prison at a rate of 41%.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rsorp94.pdf

[ultraist]

139. Yes, child rapists rape, on average around 40 children

They have a very low recovery rate and a very high recidivism rate.

[patcox2]

142. Nope, thats false.

Compared to other crimes, as reported in the source cited in the previous post, the sex crime recdivism rate for child molesters is around 5%. And compared to other crimes, thats very low.

The fact is, the issue of pedophilia is very complicated and you cannot make a blanket statement like that.

The overwhelming majority of child sex crime victims are molested by a friend or family member, for example. Yet these perpetrators have the lowest recidivism rates (it appears these are crimes of opportunity and not driven by the level of compulsion of a "predator.").

There is such a thing as a "sexual predator" who repeatedly victimizes strangers. Your statement would be true if you limited it to these sexual predators. But the fact is, these serial pedophiles make up a small percentage of those convicted of a sex crime against a child.

There are huge differences in the offenders, and huge differences in their propensity to repeat the offense.

[patcox2]

141. You should read that a little more closely.

Table 9 is all sex offenders, and measures re-arrest and re-conviction for ANY subsequent crime. Table 10 shows the rates for child molesters, its much lower, around 20%, and again, thats re-conviction for ANY crime, not necessarily for another molestation case. Still interesting, isn't it, child molesters are only HALF as likely to be arrested again within 3 years as all other sex offenders. Goes against the hype, somewhat.

Much later in the report you will find that the percentage of child molesters arrested for a subsequent SEX crime within 3 years is 5%.

Now, to know whether the recidivism rates for sex offenders are "shockingly high," we would have to know the rates for other crimes, wouldn't we, which that particular publication does not show since it is focused on hyping the hype.

5% is a very low recidivism rate.

[mrcheerful]

144. And

as you mentioned thats for any crimes they commit after being released. BTW, according to MDOC stats for a 10 year parole rate starting in 1990 and ending in 2000, out of 133 sex offenders released on parole 6.71% were sent back to prison. How they came up with the number 6.71% was broken down like this, 4.36% went back to prison for parole violations, 2.35% went back for other crimes, 0% were crimes against children. So how are you getting theres a high return rate for CSC cases? You should check things out rather then believe what the government tells you, or haven't you learned the lesson of GW yet?

[michaelwb]

143. Reading it wrong

"I looked this up, and couldn't figure out how to find this same report for 2005, (this happens to be 1994), but if you take a look at pg. 22 table 9.... at this link, maybe it would surprise you. Unless I'm reading this wrong, it looks like within 3 years, they are back in prison at a rate of 41%."

The 41.5% figure is for re-arrested and its for ANY type of crime (not just sexual related ones.)

The return to prison rate 10.5% within three years and once again for ANY time of crime (not just sexual related ones.)

Check out more importantly pages 7 & 8 of the document you link to where there are several key points.

"Compared to non-sex offenders, released from State prison, sex offenders had a lower overall rearrest rate."

The reconviction rate for a new sex scrime is 3.5% (339 of the 9,691) released sex offenders.

You get a rate of 38.6% return to prison rate (3,741 out of 9,691) for being returned for any reason - which includes being convicted of non sex related crimes failing a drug test, and missing appt with parole officer.

Of the 9,691 released sex offenders, 4,295 were in prison for child molesting.

Then you see things like "released child molesters were more likely to be arrrested for child molesting." But if you read further that means 3.3% (141 of the 4,295). Yes it's higher than the rate for non sex offenders, which is 1%, but none the less no where near a majority (in fact pretty much the opposite end of it) that most people claim.

Admitted only one study by DOJ, but still it doesn't mesh with the hysteria we see touted here.

[Mutley]

149. Let them finish the work.

Make sure they fix the stuff you are unhappy with. Then don't contact them again. What he did was heinous, but he has been through the system and has 'done his time', so to speak. And like you said, causing them problems could also cause you a lot of problems.

[MrSlayer]

152. Inform the local biker gang or the like.

And let them know where he'll be and when. It should take care of itself.

[madeline_con]

155. Check first, next time.

If you have no kids in the house, let them finish what they're doing now, and get different people for the next job that needs to be done.

Or, if you do, get the guys OUT! The one guy could return in the middle of the night....

Be more careful next time.