Ok, so I'm not *just* paranoid. NQ: Is *America* Fascist?

[Beam Me Up]

In a previous thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=527154
most of you confirmed that I'm not just 'paranoid.' THANK YOU. I needed to hear that. At the very least we all agree that, however we may describe it and its causes, something is terribly--potentially catastrophically--wrong with what is going on in our country today.

I now have three further questions I would like to see DUers address:

1) Is "America" Fascist?
In response to that question: a) Define 'fascism'. b) Relate that definition to our social history from pioneer conquest to the present Freeper 'New American Century'.

2) In line with above, how does Naziism differ from 'mere' Fascism?

3) (And this is the question I am MOST interested in):
Much of our society and standard of living is derived from the consumption and refinement of petrochemical products (oil and natural gas). Oil is the primary energy source for our society. Everything from gasoline for our cars and trucks to diesel fuel for our semis and tankers for international shipping, not to mention much of our electricity. Lets not forget our military. Just like us, they depend upon petrochemicals for their readiness. But it is much more than just 'energy'; pharmaceuticals, plastics, paints, and the fertilizers that enhance our food production are petrochemical dependant.
If you believed that, due to an imminent and precipitous decline in global petrochemical production, our economy, standard of living and social infrastructure was in danger (we are talking the survivability of you, your family, your community, your job, our country, our global hegemony, etc.)
a) would you approve of the PNAC agenda?
b) if NOT, WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE AS AN ALTERNATE STRATEGY FOR DEALING WITH THE POTENTIAL GLOBAL ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND POLITICAL UPHEAVAL THAT WILL RESULT FROM THIS SCENARIO??

In other words, folks, IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUST BE *AGAINST* THE BUSHISTA POLICIES IF THESE POLICIES ARE DERIVED FROM IMMINENT DANGER TO OUR SOCIETY. We must also have AN ALTERNATIVE VISION which will address the SAME ISSUES but in a way that represents OUR IDEALS, VIRTUES, HOPES AND ASPIRATIONS.

Unfortunately I will not be at my computer to monitor this thread today. I hope some of you will find it interesting enough to respond thus keeping it alive.

Thank you,

BMU

[Eloriel]

1. With all due respect

DUers are an incredibly generous lot -- always willing to respond quickly to requests for information, lost links, calls for research, and so forth.

But you're asking for a book or three here. Hell, I'm weary just READING your post. I really do think it's a little presumtious.

There'll no doubt be DUers who'll choose to play, but I'm going to suggest you acqaint yourself with google.

Eloriel

[Beam Me Up]

3. GOOGLE TRACKS

See: http://google-watch.org

Besides, I have done a lot of research already. I want to know what my fellow DUers think about these questions. Take part or all, however you want to reply.

[AP]

2. I'm not an expert. However, fascism is a poltical philosophy and Nazis

were a political party which was based on the poltical philosophy of fascism. If you want to know the difference between the two, I suspect it lies in the notion that Nazis were what they did...killing Jews and gypsies and gays and all that. Exploiting the racial other for political gain is definitely totally inherent in fascism. Genocide is the way Nazis manifested that impulse.

[Beam Me Up]

4. By your definition

were our founding fathers and mothers 'Nazis'?

[AP]

6. The US justified genocide based on a completely different set of ideologie

(I thought you said you did research. That you don't see the difference suggests you might have been doing your research an neo-Nazi web sights.)

America was definitely founded as a reaction to the concentration of wealth and power based on birth. It was the antithesis of monarchy.

Killing Indians was actually driven by a sens of race that came more out of Jacksonian Democratic ideas, than anything else, I bet. And then TR took that to a new step with his global imperialism thing.

Fascism is using the threat of the outsider to create fear which then encourages people to turn over poltical power and wealth to the government who then uses that power to entrench the economic power of corporations. It's the opposite of Democracy, althought both can have a racist component.

DUhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

[AP]

5. Fascism is the biggest threat to American way of life.

Don't you know anything about FDR? This is what FDR was fighting -- Wall Streeters who wanted to turn America into a fascist state and keep the workers uneducated and in misery so that Wall St could profit.

Incidentally, the internal combustion engine is technology that is almost 100 years old. Thanks to a lot of TXans with undo influence on global politics, technological progress viz the internal comubsion enginge and viz any potentially competing technology has been totally stalled.

I have no doubt that if the REpublicans had not had so much power in the 20th century, we already would have moved on to some safer, cleaner, and less poltically dangerous technology.

I also have faith that (if we fully fund public education in America) we could make up for all the lost time in a generation IF WE ELECT LIBERALS AND UNELECT FASCISTS.

The road to a happier future is not throught electing fascits who will continue to protect huge profits and who will destroy progress in the service of the internal combustion engine.

DUh!!!!!!!!!!!

Apoligists for fascism turn my stomach.

I suspect one of the biggest things about Arnold that Republicans love is that he softens Americans to the notion that fascism could be good.

[DBoon]

7. Some important distinctions

1. There are important differences between different movements and governments that are broadly described as Fascist. Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Petain, eastern European pre-WWII movements, and more contemporary examples like Pinochet, Argentine Junta, etc. Don't assume because Hitler practiced racial genocide and tried to revive pagan Germanic rites that these are essential to fascism. Look at Franco's national catholicism, Mussolini's early leftist leanings, and Pinochet's support of Chicago School economics.

2. We need to be careful about American antecendents. I think we should study these more carefully. Look at the Klan for example, and how it almost took over the state government in Indiana in the 1920's (film footage of Klan rallies from thsi era could have come from "Triumph of the Will"). Look at our early history of Puritan intolerance for more guidance as to where we are heading now. Fascism is based on national myths, look at what those are in the US.

3. Not all bad things are "fascist". There is a type of conservative dictatorship that is not explicitly fascist.


Don't make the term "fascist" become a general term of abuse. Learn what it is and what it isn't.

[AP]

8. BMU, you're an apologist for fascism aren't you?

You've concluded that we do need fascsim to protect us from the threat of economic decline, haven't you?

You're like those Germans who were manipulated by the Nazis into thinking they should accept less because of the ecoomic threats?

[Beam Me Up]

10. NO! Please!!

I've not concluded ANYTHING. I'm asking questions. I want to know, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN GLOBAL SOCIETY. My personal vision is of a new global consciousness that embraces differences of race and creed, is essentially humanist and somewhat 'mystical.' I LOATHE fascism.

[AP]

11. Whatever. I'm just glad that FDR didn't rely on mysticism to fight fascism

...

[Beam Me Up]

9. Thanks to all who have replied thus far...

It's not that I don't have my own understanding of these issues. I want to know what DU thinks. I also think they are relevant questions to our current political dilemmas.

To all, thanks again. I have to go now. I'll check this thread later tonight.

BMU

[ixion]

12. we have been moving towards facism for nearly 25 years, perhaps longer

if you consider genocide a facist event... but it was Ray-gun who made it fashionable. And in that sense, it's not just the Bush/PNAC crowd. There are plenty of DLC people who believe in things like the 'War on Drugs', which was a facisit ploy to erode civil liberties and exert social control.

What do I propose we do about it?

From an economic standpoint, we should be capitalists, and adapt to changing times. In lieu of petrochemical, we need to invest and research other alternatives. The problem is that the oil barons don't want to lose their power, hence PNAC.

From a societal standpoint, we need to stop the government from legistlating morality and lifestyle choices altogether, as this was never the intention of the Founding Fathers, IMHO.

American government was intended to be servile, not totalitarian. The problem there is that politicians like to justify their jobs by makeing moral legislation, which has historically caused nothing but trouble.

[info being]

13. Yes, I'm 100% with you

If you are serious about creating an alternative, please join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/New_Revolution/ and take part in the discussion.

We plan to come up with a "manifesto" and then take positive action.

[earthman dave]

14. Fascism links

try www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php
also www.crisispapers.org/topics/fascism.htm

[rucky]

15. Answer to 3b: Let it Happen

It's obvious we'll have to learn to curb our consumption the hard way. The intentional byproduct of the entire PNAC strategy is to have us common folk make all the sacrifices while the elite protects their bottom line. The public support of this will decline into anger the more we feel the pinch on a day-to-day basis. People will suffer, and that is tragic - but our suffering is noting compared to 80% of the world population. If we can't put ourselves in the rest of the world's shoes, I guess we'll have to "feel their pain" a bit more literally before we do something about it.