Response to my RW Grandmother’s email

[LT TX]

My grandmother sent me this nonsense today (I am the married granddaughter she mentioned) along with a newsletter from the “Family Policy Network.” My reply is below hers. This grandmother is on my mother’s side. Coincidentally, my mother is a VERY liberal democrat.

Her email:

If you have not already voted, and are unsure about how to vote on this amendment, please consider the damage same sex marriage would do to our nation.
The homosexual lifestyle is against the laws of our land, and most of the world. From the beginning of time, marriage has been a one man, one woman institution for many reasons, not least of which is procreation, and a stable family for our children.
At a recent family get-together, my married granddaughter said, "before I married, I was aggravated when I heard daddy snoring all night. After I married, I missed hearing him snore. I somehow felt protected, knowing Daddy was here, and I was protected."
Have you ever seen or heard of so-called "dumb" animals who want to sodomize each other? NO!!
Why should humans think they can subvert the laws of nature, and call it marriage?
PLEASE VOTE "YES" TOMORROW ON PROP.2



My reply:

I believe that basic human rights and civil liberties are due to all persons. Therefore, I cannot in good conscience vote for any amendment that will deny civil rights to any group of people. As a Christian, I feel it is important that we do not use the Constitution as an instrument to impose our religious beliefs. Rather, we should welcome a Constitution free of prejudice – racially, sexually and spiritually.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. "From the beginning of time"

Marriage was polygamous and frequently polyandrous until quite recently.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. And also if you look

in the Bible everyone but Adam and Eve were related by blood. How else do you think they had children?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. grandma was also historically inaccurate

Throughout history, it has been just as common for one man to have many wives plus concubines-just look at the Bible-Solomon wasn't monogomous by any means! Also, homosexual behavior was considered acceptable in much of ancient Greece and also in Rome.

[KurtNYC]

12. and wrong about Nature

There are gay peguins in both the Central Park zoo and at Coney Island. Also as we learned last year during the sponge Bob controversy, many sea creatures can change gender, some are asexual, etc.

[Ravenseye]

41. Don't forget Bisexual Chimp's

Bonobo Chimps will have sex with just about anyone or anything.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Gay marriage is now legal in Canada and Spain IIRC

Men in Utah are married to multiple (sometimes related) women.

[TrogL]

56. We've had gay marriage here for awhile

The sky's still there.

Most people I know who were married still are.

I've seen several opposite-sex newlyweds.

Several children have been born and there's still lots of them in school.

Did I miss anything?

[China_cat]

4. You might have also reminded her

that yes, there are 'dumb' animals that engage in homosexual behavior, including bonobo chimps that do it just for fun.

[Arugula Latte]

11. Yep, same sex animal "lovin'" is quite common.

Granny needs to bone up on her facts (pardon the expression).

[msongs]

5. most sodomy is performed by heterosexual christians.....

ask grannie if she had oral sex with grandpa.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/chinamart.htm

PS - "sodomy" is a religious concept specific to the bible. It only applies to christians and jews. alleging "sodomy" against a person is a flat out religious indictment and should not apply to anyone who does not believe in the myths and fairy tales of the bible.

[LT TX]

17. I really didn't need that

image in my head! :) I might need to bring that point up to her if she replies (and I am sure she will). Thanks!

[stop the bleeding]

6. Good Reply and Welcome to DU

:toast:

[LT TX]

10. Thank You!

[Vanje]

7. Good response

I hope you sent it via "reply all' so that the rest of your Grandmother's email list would also recieve it's benefit.

[LT TX]

13. Yes, I did

I am waiting to see what the rest of her family and friends have to say. So far, only my mother has replied. Her response: That's my girl!!!

[ck4829]

8. Animals participate in same sex acts all the time

It's been recorded in many species of animals. Apes, Giraffes, Penguins, all the way down to Salamanders of the same sex doing a mating dance together.

[Sandpiper]

33. Cross-species sex acts too

I don't understand how righties can repeat the canard that all other animals are inherently opposite sex attracted when it's so demonstrably false.

Hell, Bonobo Apes are a fully bisexual species, and not too far from humans on the taxonomy tree.

[Tsiyu]

9. Some people spend too much time

thinking about sex and how people are having sex and why they are having sex and just who is having sex?

Cripes! They need therapy, but the NeoCons only offer them the freakin' Constitution.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. They are obsessed with sex

and they write really bad porn too.

[TlalocW]

14. I've heard of plenty of "dumb animals"

Who engage in homosexual behavior.

But luckily an evangelist who visited my college explained it to me. You see, God gave man dominion over the earth, and man's sin covers the earth completely so it's man that makes animals gay.

Seriously, he said this with a straight face then ignored me whenever I shouted at him to, "Tell us more about the gay monkeys, damn it!"

TlalocW

[Caoimhe]

15. Welcome to DU!

and great reply! I feel for you, I have wingnuts in my family as well.

[Debau2005]

16. My relatives

no longer bring this topic up with me. My standard question back to them is are you better off now that Gay Marriage is being banned in states across the U.S? When they give that inquisitive look, I ask if they make more money, economy better, gas cheaper, etc because gays can't marry. This shuts them up and keeps them away from me for a while.

[LT TX]

19. You are lucky

When arguing with us, she refuses to listen to facts and when we have her backed into a corner she says "Democrat!" or "Liberal!" like it is an insult. We just laugh and say thank you.

When she emails us crap like this and we reply she just sends even more of the garbage. She thinks that she will "save us."

I got her really mad one time when gay marriage was brought up a couple of years ago. She went on the same rant and I asked how she would feel if gluttony was against the law (she is a large woman) since gluttony is a sin. She then called me a liberal.

[Debau2005]

30. Sometimes

all you can do is ignore them. At a social gathering, it infuriates my aunt when I sigh, and then walk away. Makes my step-father laugh out loud when he sees me do this.

[kaygore]

18. Well said

[BJW]

20. Odd juxtaposition--snoring and sodomy--eom

[PatriotMom]

21. Welcome to DU LT TX I have two daughters that are Lesbian...

and we go over this issue all the time here in AZ with our State Government. We all participated in the "Three Point Action" about two years ago, and we will be fighting that battle again in this election too. There are something like 1200 civil rights that are not being allowed Gay singles and couples today. I'm truly sorry about your Grandmothers point of view, and I am glad to see you do stand up for what you know is right. Hang in there Kiddo, it's a tough fight. Watch this video from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart, it will give you a chuckle.
Peace,Mom


http://movies.crooksandliars.com/com_ds_gay_marriage_ruins_state_051103a.wmv

[PatriotMom]

25. OH and P.S. my Daughters wife snores and so does my daughter

Come to think of it I have been told I do too, I'm sure that is not true though...he he he he
but it does give you a sense of safety as a child and I am sure my daughter would miss her wife's snoring if she were gone. By the way they have been married going on nine years now and they raise two of my wonderful grandchildren.
Peace

[LT TX]

29. Thank you!

Thanks for the video.

I just don't understand how Christians can be so cruel. I don't think she used to be as fanatical as this. When I was growing up, she was my Sunday school teacher. I remember her teaching what Jesus had to say about love and forgiveness. Somewhere that message has been lost on her.

I seriously think that Fox News has brainwashed her. That is all she watches ALL DAY LONG. She even has pictures of Dubya and Reagan on her refrigerator. That is just too strange to me.

[PatriotMom]

35. Maybe she should take a look at Rev.Fred Phelps website....

She could get a good look at how really ugly her position on this issue can become. These people have become insane I think. They go to our soldiers funerals now and praise the land mines that have blown them up. They do this in protest to the stand that the military has made regarding Gays in the military...I think that is what that is about. But regardless I cannot imagine having a loved one die and then having idiots like Phelps and his gang coming with signs praising my loved ones death. I think at that point I could go postal on the Rev and his crew. What they do is so ugly maybe she should take a look. And his website is called "God Hates Fags .com" OK nuff said....
http://www.godhatesfags.com/

on the lighter side here is
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
this is a parody on the abominations of God in the Bible.
Peace

[Sandpiper]

22. Grandma needs to get acquainted with her own Bible

"Marriage has been a one man, one woman institution"


Not in the Bible it hasn't.

The Mosaic Law even gives instructions to men with multiple wives on how to deal with their children.

Deuteronomy 21:15-17:

If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated:

Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:

But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.


Not to mention:

Abraham - 3 wives
Jacob/Israel - 4 wives
David - at least 18 wives (God only got angry when he coveted an already married woman)
Solomon - 700 wives, 300 concubines

[quisp]

23. you should definately remind

you Grandmother that marriage has almost NEVER been strictly between one man and one woman. Tell here that there are Christian cultures in this country right now who condone polyagmy. Let her know that there are some cultures that one woman will marry all the brothers from a family.

And tell her that there are plenty of examples of "dumb" animals having gay sex!

[Sandpiper]

31. Self-delete

[Saphire]

24. tell grandma it isn't about having sex, its about having equal rights

under the constitution.

[asjr]

26. Your reply was spot on! I will never

understand the animosity and hatred toward homosexuals. My response to those few who have made remarks about it is "God made them the same as you and me, don't blame the end product." They all seem to forget that God is Love.

[BR_Parkway]

27. Since she's past the age of procreating, I'm sorry to hear of her upcoming

divorce - that marraige stuff isn't needed anymore

Actually, the simplest arguement I have made has been to ask the questioner if their own relationship is based strictly on what they do in bed.

[seabeyond]

28. send this to your rw grandmother for me, totally in respect

and as i go thru my day, i am telling my people, republicans and fundies, i have to vote against putting discrimination in state constitution. and the reason being, the right christian and republican have already said out loud that voting democrat is unchristian. if this is unchristian then this too is possible to put in our state constitution since we are deciding law in the interpretation of the fundamentalist and literalists and demanding we all live by their rule.

so i have an obligation and responsibility not to mention self preservation, to vote against traditional marriage.

hm\

what a world we live in

[TahitiNut]

32. We have far greater problems than who somebody else chooses to LOVE.

When people think love is a problem, we're truly and deeply FUCKED!

[Dr. Death]

34. Regarding marriage: an anthropological view

"From the beginning of time, marriage has been a one man, one woman institution"

Other posters have already pointed out that this is not true. Both polygynous (more than one wife) and polyandrous (more than one husband) societies are known. For various reasons, polygyny is much more common than polyandry.

As an anthropologist, I would like to add a point that I rarely see made in discussions on this topic. It is not only polygamy that gives the lie to the statement quoted above. There are cultures where same-sex marriage exists and is considered completely normal. Marriage is a cultural universal (one of few), but the definition of what constitutes marriage varies. Thus, any statement that "this is the ways it is and always has been" is patently false. The idea of "one man one woman" is not a natural concept, but rather a cultural one that does not hold true for all times and all cultures.

Of course, RWers don't want to hear this. When I used to teach the subject in my Intro to Anthropology courses at a very conservative university in the heart of * country, students hated it almost as much as hearing about evolution.

Which is a shame, because if anthropology teaches us anything, it is the wonderful diversity of human beings.

[zbdent]

36. So, where does "dog-on-leg" sex fit into the overall Christian viewpoint

on "heterosexuality being the norm"?

Or chimps that can tell if a woman/girl is "in heat"? (See Lost in Space for details on why they had to get rid of the chimp).

Or, dolphins on humans? (Don't get into HHGTTG on me - that would be the second-most intelligent species having a go with the third-most . . .)

Or, as I heard about a few years back, bull on mannequin?

Or, as Ron White said, veteranarian on dog, for artificial insemination?

[ROH]

37. Bonobo Sex and Society...

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

[LT TX]

38. Here is her reply:

Thank you, Leslie, for your input. I believe that your civil rights and liberties end where my nose begins.
People who wish to lead an alternative lifestyle have that right. However, the traditional family is the very foundation of civilization. Same sex "marriage", and the removal of every vestige of Christianity from our nation undermines the very foundation on which the American dream is built. If secularism is successful, our country will crumble into the dust of previous great civilizations. America will cease to be America.

[seabeyond]

39. she is well versed, she listens to rush? jesus walked with prostitute

he did not lecture, nor try to reform her. he merely loved her. his loving the prostitute did not ruin civilization. if it is good enough for jesus. it is good enough for me

what would jesus do

[Thtwudbeme]

40. That's interesting: Rome didn't start Falling until they became Christian

That said, your granny, RW as she may be, sounds like a fiesty broad! I hope to be as sharp as she is....my grandmother has NEVER used email...

Steph

[mtpWriter]

42. Ask her why she believes that America is so

weak?

I am sick of people who use the "America will be destroyed" argument in debates about taxes, education, welfare, on and on and on.

It sure sounds to me like they believe America is this weak, fragile little nation that can't withstand change or even correct a mistake.

I love asking them why they don't have faith in the strength in America (since THEY love to present themselves as "real" patriots).

[WritingIsMyReligion]

44. If secularism is successful, we won't turn into a Christian Iran.

That's a GOOD thing.

:eyes::eyes:

Truly sorry, but your grandmother seems a bit kooky.

[BJW]

48. I'd ask her to define her terms first.

If you want to try to get at her to look at the fallaciousness of her underlying belief system (assuming this is what you want to do) ask her to define her terms.

What exactly does she mean by "civil rights" "liberties" "alternative lifestyle" "marriage" "vestige of Christianity" "American dream" and "secularism"?

You could also expand the discussion and ask her for her beliefs about inter-racial marriage, polygamy, adult/teen marriage, co-habitation, etc.

[mondo joe]

50. Then she should keep her "nose" out of my marriage!

What a funny response. Turn it around - her rights end where MY nose begins.

[donco6]

60. I know! That's makes no sense at all.

So, my gay relationship, which has never impacted her in any way, has to bow to her rights, but my rights end at her nose? Go figger.

[LT TX]

55. Here is my reply

The traditional family is not the “very foundation of civilization.” The Bible (particularly the OT) has made it quite clear that multiple wives was not uncommon. In fact, polygamy is practiced here in America. The idea of a “traditional family” is just that – tradition. The “traditional family” in your view does not hold for everyone. Nor, should your view be pushed on anyone. Like you said “your civil rights and liberties end where my nose begins.”

I have often wondered what would happen if gay marriage were legal. Would the economy collapse? Would education worsen? Would our marriages become less so? I have to honestly answer no.

America can only crumble into dust when we (as Americans) cease respecting the equality of all citizens. As Americans, we should have the foresight to see that protecting the values of those we don’t agree with also protects our own.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

43. Most animals fuck memebrs of their own sex all the time

Her BS is extra shitty in that respect. And "from the beginning of time"? No, I don't think so. The Greeks--our sophisticated, honored Greeks--believed that a man/man relationship was an extra special one, ESPECIALLY when one man was far older than the other.

Fascinating how that works out, no?

[mtpWriter]

45. No

[geniph]

64. Elucidation?

[MiniMe]

46. Here is my answer to the "marriage if for procreation" argument

I unfortunately had to have a hysterectomy. I am not currently married. Is your grandmother saying that I should not be able to get married? Because I certainly can't have children anymore, so I would not be marrying for procreation. What about senior citizens that get married? They won't be having children either.


When I say that to the "marriage is for procreation" people, they usually start stuttering and the conversation ends. They have no valid comeback to it.

[Lexingtonian]

47. how I'd reply...

If you have not already voted, and are unsure about how to vote on this amendment, please consider the damage same sex marriage would do to our nation.

There are lots of studies and they show no such thing. Gay people have raised children and been in marriages throughout history, nothing is changed by the legalization of gay marriage but now they will marry the people they love most deeply.

The homosexual lifestyle is against the laws of our land, and most of the world.

Read the verdict in Lawrence v Texas, 2003. As for 'most of the world' being a moral guiding light to Americans, that's by remarkable coincidence always a good idea when Americans are trying to justify torture, executions, and such and supposedly always a bad idea when dealing with womens' rights, voting rights. Oh, and Canada and a couple of European countries have gay marriage. England is one of the next in line. And did anyone mention Massachusetts.

From the beginning of time, marriage has been a one man, one woman institution for many reasons, not least of which is procreation, and a stable family for our children.

You have to be utterly blind to American society and the contents of all Ancient writings and documentation to claim this with a straight face.

At a recent family get-together, my married granddaughter said, "before I married, I was aggravated when I heard daddy snoring all night. After I married, I missed hearing him snore. I somehow felt protected, knowing Daddy was here, and I was protected."

Some of us grow up and don't need Big Daddy there. What Big Daddy does has not been very good for an awful lot of trusting little girls, especially in social backwoods places like Texas. And many children prefer Mommy.

Have you ever seen or heard of so-called "dumb" animals who want to sodomize each other? NO!!

Heard, yes. But what animals do or don't isn't authoritative for human behavior. Dogs lick themselves happily in the ways that disgust you so, and that is just the beginning of what animals really do.

Why should humans think they can subvert the laws of nature, and call it marriage?

Thank you for admitting you worship a pagan Nature God, not a Biblical one. But many of us are no longer believers in such paganisms. Naive me, I thought the God of the Bible made spiritual love and commitment the basis of covenant and marriage. Oh wait, now you're going to tell me that gay people have no souls and couldn't possibly recognize and realize such things. Except that you've never been actually able to pick up on any gay people by this in your life, and you probably see nothing obscene about soul-devoid heterosexual people marrying.

PLEASE VOTE "YES" TOMORROW ON PROP.2

No. The world is changing and all bigotry must come to an end sometime.

[Brewman_Jax]

49. You can ask her this...

the parents of gays that I know are straight. Why is that? Is God angry at them? :shrug:

[insane_cratic_gal]

51. Gay marriage is now the new

poster child for the GOP get out the vote.

It almost hilarious if it wasn't so friggin sad. There are kids in a a "normal" family environment who are being molested by Daddy or Uncle Bob. There are kids in "traditional" families settings going off the deep end.

Piss on traditional, lets focus on what love and guidance you can offer a child vs the gender of the two parents.

We need to get over ourselves, what happened to though shall not judge less they be judged?

[LT TX]

54. Ha! Here is another response!

I have no idea who this guy is, but he is an idiot!

Here is his reply:

I agree with Carol, and if one studies world history they will learn that the crumbling and fall of civilizations has indeed always begun with the loss of moral values- an obvious one, the Roman Empire centuries ago. A Christian would know that the Bible condemns same sex anything. In Genesis, God created man; then created a woman to be his partner. Numerous Biblical passages describe how God punished homosexuals. Our country is being not only led, but drug, to moral decay by those with an agenda for the ruination of America. Our Constitution was written by men of great faith in God who wanted to insure freedom of religious choice - the reason most came to America - to escape the mandatory Church of England, but never envisioned the lengths to which some now are misusing the original intent of the Constitution to eliminate religion from our society, and our individual rights of expression thereof altogether. Those who fall victim to following false prophets - today's Liberals - need to wake up! No 'Merry Christmas'? Ridiculous! We'll be Communistic shortly if they continue to have their way. Remember Krushev's statement? 'America will fall from within. ' Unfortunately we have been falling for a while now.

[Touchdown]

59. Funny they always bring up Rome.

As if that was a great, altruistic society (who just so happened to persecute Christians, invade and enslave cultures, and invented crucifixion) that needed to be preserved.... and gays destroyed it. Gays should be the heroes of the world for destroying Rome if these loons were right. We'd not only have equal rights, we'd have priveleges not afforded breeders. Biggest non-sequitur ever thought of.

[newyawker99]

57. Hi LT TX!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[B Calm]

58. You do know if they allowed gays to marry that there will be

small groups of happily married gays roaming the streets at night and gang raping happily married straight people, thus turning the happily married straight people into flaming homosexuals and destroying their marriage!!

[tsuki]

61. I cannot follow her logic. Sorry. Good reply tho.

[donheld]

62. Good for you

I'd love to hear her response.

[geniph]

63. I take it Gramma never owned dogs

I've seen dogs - both male and female - mount each other many, many more times than I'd care to remember. In some cases where it was male-on-male, there's no question there was arousal and even penetration (the bottom dog yelping is a sure tip-off there). Cows mount each other. I've seen neutered male dogs humping away on neutered male cats. Birds in cages will mount each other. Dolphins are notorious for rubbing their woodies on anything within reach.

We haven't cornered the market on same-sex action.