So far: Looks like the MSM will defend white phosphorus use in Fallujah..

[Junkdrawer]

Here's a Google News of "White Phosphorus"...

Britain, Germany, Italy all present the clear case it was a chemical attack:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=White%20Phosphorus&btnG=Google+Search&sa=N&tab=wn

UPI?

Iraq calls U.S. flares chemical weapons

...

"Some news accounts have claimed that U.S. forces have used 'outlawed' phosphorus shells in Fallujah," the USinfo.state.gov Web site said. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. U.S. forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes."


http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051108-082651-2831r

Let's see if the smoke screen continues...

[ananda]

1. Illumination purposes..

.. sheesh.

[uppityperson]

6. easier to see those bad guys if they are burning

makes me sick. I grew up with pictures of that girl in vietnam after getting napalmed. I hope that they come up with one here to make this real to more people. Not that I hope anyone got phorphorused, but knowing that they did, a picture to show the inhumanity of it needs to be put forward. Makes me sick.

[tatertop]

36. This kills three birds with one projectile:

Any experienced officer will tell you this, in fact,
kills three birds with one projectile:

1. Lights up the body of the innocent

2. Converts innocent into audible target (attributable to all that horrible uncontrollable screaming - especially the women and children with those whiny high-pitched voices)

3. Commits War Crime

[TomClash]

That means

we can really see the inside the corrupt and rotting carcas of the Bush Administration.

[Squatch]

2. Funny you should mention smoke screen...

The M-825 improved smoke munition (155mm) was used extensively in Iraq. It's a chemical (WP) obscurant.

[Junkdrawer]

7. In the spirit of "blame the grunts", could Rumsfeld et. al. simply claim..

the soldiers on the ground used approved weapons in an unapproved manner? :shrug:

[Squatch]

12. There are four ways to use smoke

Obscuring smoke-Use and effects of a smoke screen placed directly on or near the enemy with the primary purpose of suppressing observers and minimizing their vision

Screening smoke--A smoke curtain used on the battlefield between enemy observation points and friendly units to mask maneuvers

Deception smoke--A smoke curtain used to deceive and confuse the enemy as to the nature of friendly operations.

Signaling smoke--Smoke used to establish a reference for friendly forces.

(From FM 6-30 Observed Fire)

[Junkdrawer]

14. So you fill a building with "Obscuring smoke" and, hey presto...

securing the building gets a whole lot easier. :shrug:

[Squatch]

15. It actually impedes the enemy's ability to shoot at you, move, and

communicate.

Since we have improved thermal imaging devices, use of smoke only impairs our battlefield perception a little bit...not nearly as much as a guerilla force.

[Junkdrawer]

16. And what if you use so much that your opponents "melt away"...

literally...

[Squatch]

17. Pardon my harshness, but then you've sorta killed two birds

with one stone, haven't you?

For the record, I do not support using WP as a purely AP weapon.

[Junkdrawer]

19. I'm guessing that there are shells for use in buildings and shells..

for use in open battle fields and that the latter was used in buildings.

I'm also guessing that NC personnel will get blamed for this... (See also Abu Ghraib)...

[Squatch]

22. Yes and no.

There are techniques for increasing the lethality/destructive power of munitions by using them in combination. For example: one technique, called "shake and bake" worked wonders on POL and ammo dumps. First, the observer would bring in HE rounds with delay fuses, followed closely by WP.

The HE would penetrate fuel barrels, oil tanks, ammo crates, etc, while the WP would ignite it.

Now, the problem with things like DPICM and FASCAM, is that you pose a lot of risk to your own soldiers if you want to go in and take that property. DPICM has a 5% or so dud rate and FASCAM (not employed very often) does not always self destruct.

[TX-RAT]

37. Those look more like M-77 cluster bombs or rounds, set for air burst.

Raining down sub-munitions.

[Squatch]

38. Disagree...

speaking from experience, that's M-825. Notice how they just burn when they hit the ground and not explode.

[TX-RAT]

40. can't see them hitting the ground

Do you have a link to the M-825, i keep coming up with recoilless rifle.

[Squatch]

42. Yeah, here's one from FAS...it's a still picture

but you get the idea.



The things that are dispensed from the shell are WP-impregnated felt wedges that ignite as soon as they make contact with the air in the atmoshpere.

[Moochy]

3. "for illumination purposes."

Nothing quite like human torches running around on fire to light up the battlefield. :mad:

Like the KKK guy said to the police officer, the cross is just lit for illumination purposes. Fuck these fascist warmongers.

Just to be clear, by FASCIST WARMONGERS I mean those in the PENTAGON giving the orders, not the troops (who we are politically compelled to just love when even when they commit atrocities :eyes: )

[Squatch]

5. Actually, the M-485A2 is an illuminating round (155mm) that uses

a WP cannister stabilized by a small parachute. They're used extensively, but in decreasing quantities as new generations of night vision are brought to use.

[Squatch]

9. Corrected previous...

The M-110 is a bursting-type WP round in the HE family.

The M-485A2 is the 155mm illuminating round.

[Fridays Child]

4. Okay, then. I guess that people were illuminated to death.

eom

[G_j]

8. US(dis)info.state.gov

now there is a credible source!

ha ha ha

[Hyernel]

10. I also heard cluster-bombs were used.

And let's not forget the depleted Uranium dust that wafting all around deforming the next 2-3 generations of Iraqi babies.

[Squatch]

13. Very much so...

the 155mm family of projectiles includes a number that employ DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions)...a combination of AT and AP submunitions.

In a combat load, "normal" projectiles such as HE are reduced in favor of ICMs.

[Eugene]

11. UPI is owned by the Unification Church.

Take its reporting with a ton of salt.

So far, the US media has ignored the story
except UPI and a Christian Science Monitor report
posted a few minutes ago.

[madrchsod]

18. i watched the video

. an air burst then white hot objects hitting a wide area...there is a lot of "illumination" staying on the ground...

[Squatch]

23. What you were seeing is the use of M-825 Improved Smoke.

It's a chemical (WP) obscurant

[Junkdrawer]

30. ..or was it Whiskey Pete...

....

JEFF ENGLEHART: Well, it comes across radio as a general transmission. When it happens like that, you hear it on the radio through -- we have speakers in our trucks -- speakers and then the transmission goes to the speakers, so it's audible. And as they'd say, “In five , we're going drop some Whiskey Pete.” “Roger. Commence bombing.” I mean, it just comes across the radio, and like, when you hear “Whiskey Pete,” that's the military slang.

NARRATOR: Contrary to what was said by the U.S. State Department, white phosphorous was not used in the open field to illuminate enemy troops. For this, tracer was used. A rain of fire shot from U.S. helicopters on the city of Fallujah on the night of the 8th of November. will show you in this exceptional documentary, which proves that a chemical agent was used in a massive and indiscriminate way in districts of Fallujah. In the days that followed, U.S. satellite images showed Fallujah burned out and razed to the ground.

JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorous will disperse in a cloud. And when it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. It doesn't necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it's just impossible to stop.

REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?

JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorous kills indiscriminately. It's a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal.

.....

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/08/1516227

[Squatch]

31. Ummm..."Whisky Pete" is phonetic for "WP"...

M-825 is a chemical (WP...whisky pete) obscurant.

[Junkdrawer]

35. I understand that "Whiskey Pete" is phonetic for "White Phosphorus"...

my question is: "Is an M-825 round deadly for 150 meters around its explosion?"

Because if it isn't, it sounds to me like white phosphorus warheads were used with the intent to kill...

[Squatch]

39. From FM 6-30 Observed Fire (FM=Field Manual...military doctrine)

4-16. SHELL WHITE PHOSPHORUS Shell white phosphorus (WP) has four uses: incendiary, marking, obscuring, and screening. It can be used to destroy the enemy's equipment or to limit his vision. It is used against the following:
-Vehicles. doesn't indicate if the vehicles need to be unoccupied
-Petroleum, oils and lubricants (POL) and ammunition storage areas. -
-Enemy observers.

Also, shell WP can be used as an aid in target location and navigation. It can be fired with fuze time to obtain an airburst.

-----------
From this manual, Army TTPs allow for the use of WP against human targets.

Can somebody help with a source addressing the legality of WP against human targets?

[Junkdrawer]

43. Reuters is ambiguous...

...

An incendiary device, white phosphorus is used by the military to conceal troop movements with smoke, mark targets or light up combat areas. The use of incendiary weapons against civilians has been banned by the Geneva Convention since 1980.

The United States did not sign the relevant protocol to the convention, a U.N. official in New York said.

...

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-08T170109Z_01_MCC861178_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-WEAPONS.xml

[mattclearing]

20. Is this the same MSM that totally ignores the use of depleted uranium?

What do you expect?

[stop the bleeding]

21. Countdown anyone?

Wondering if Keith Olberman is following this story??

[IChing]

24. Democracy Now had an amazing piece on this.

link http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2232131

It should be up soon at their link
http://www.democracynow.org/

[stop the bleeding]

28. I know I listened to the whole thing this morning while at work,

could you believe the Lt. Col and the amount of DENIAL he was spewing, DNOW always covers the stories before they get to the MSM.

That whole CIA jet / prison story from Poland was covered last year by D-NOW, back then they did not have as much research as what was reported this time, but still shows D-NOW's ability to sniff out the NEWS.

[welshTerrier2]

25. Democracry Now - Link-TV (6 pm est today) - watch the video

i wouldn't recommend watching it right after eating though ...

the video about the use of white phosphorus in Fallujah and the subsequent discussion was truly eye opening ... they can dance around all the legal jargon they want too and they can deny it was used to attack civilians ...

the pictures say otherwise ...

[caligirl]

26. on live journal now video in English of RAI story.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mparent7777/4236736.html

video link from live journal.
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/video/fallujah_ING.wmv



Now we know why the Italian journalist and Italian secret service agent were shot at by our troops. Her car was destroyed. The agent was killed.

[sweetheart]

27. But really, it begs to proportionality in modern warfare

Amurika overstepped its remit there, i think the turning point of
goodwill and the potential of a positive solution, and a declining
occupational morass.

But the other side of it, is to consider that in war, the job of the
army is to kill the entire enemy army, so intensely, with such force
of firepower and obliteration, that NOBODY DARE cross the boundaries
of a just society. Zero tolerance of abuse is how we end abuse, and
maybe, contrarian thinking here, falluja has effectively destroyed the
long term survival of this ameriraqi government.

Phosphorus, and the rockets red glare; would a timed firing of tactical
nukes be more beautiful. 100 artillery rounds of 10 kilotonne
explosives fired in high speed volleys making sure that not a
soul lives, obliterating the enemy army totally, and then riding on
and shelling every city in their country with nuclear explosives and
perform a genocide, a sort of ritual bushido cleansing, to erase the
entire civilization from the earth by killing all its people.

And how else can we get to that if we are not to use massive firebombings
to exterminate the infidels?

[PDJane]

29. Time to re-read history.

Google the Peace of Westphalia, 17th century.

[Sequoia]

32. ILLUMINATION PURPOSES??????!!!!!!!

SCUM. WHAT SCUM YOU ARE! PURE EVIL. EVIL!!!

[Squatch]

33. Yes, we have and use illumination projectiles:

for illumination purposes



This shell consists of a canister containing WP that is stabilized by a parachute as it floats to the ground.

[auburngrad82]

34. It's not illegal to use WP shells for illumination. However, it's illegal

to use them on people. It burns holes through them. It is against the Geneva Convention to use them on people.

[Loonman]

41. Katie Couric might think it's foundation makeup

Or something.

[Savannah Progressive]

44. Well you see the problem then don't you

It's tough for the MSM to denounce the use of chemical or immoral or even illegial weapons on Civillians and innocents, while they "support the (imperialist) troops".

So if one of "our boys" commits a cold blooded murder, or tortures someone, or burns the civillians with a chemical that you can't put out once it starts burning, then they sit on the story to support the troops.

I mean, if they put a story out there that accurately portrays the troops as murderers, Torturers, or even just brutal, then they are denounced by their collegues and Washington for not supporting the troops.

100,000 dead civillians, murdered innocents, slaughtered women and children, and all we hear about is how great a job they are doing.

Sure, if your job is Genocide, then by God they are doing a bang up job there.

[Junkdrawer]

45. The ultimate irony...

On DemocracyNow, the military spokesman said that none of the "embedded" journalists reported this while only one "independent" journalist is saying this, so he doubted the story was true.

Here's the irony: the Italian reporter was one of the very few "independent" to make it out of Falluja alive - and then only after an attempt on her life.

[Squatch]

46. Just playing devil's advocate...

since she percieved an attempt on her life, could her story be some sort of vendetta?

I dunno...although I would say her objectivity should be under question...but whose wouldn't after going to war and back, yano?

[Junkdrawer]

48. Well, first the military spokesman was wrong...there are more than one...

independent journalists saying this.

Second, she has the documentation. The spokesman said he didn't view the film and, so, couldn't comment on it. After that, he acted as if the film didn't exist. Well, it does.

Vendetta or not, if she has the proof....

[Squatch]

49. True. It'll be interesting to watch this develop.

[LibertyorDeath]

47. " for illumination purposes"

yes illuminating Flesh to reveal Iraqi bones.

War Criminals & those who aid in the cover up are also guilty!