Could you live with yourself after dropping fire on women and children?

[NNN0LHI]

And I don't care if you were ordered to do so either. Could you live with yourself after doing it?

[Horse with no Name]

1. How can all these crimes against humanity go unanswered?

Has our country just become to entrenched with violence that we don't see how horrible these crimes are?
It is beyond the pale.
I would go to prison before I would burn anyone alive.

[SixStrings]

2. Stop 'troop bashing'!

Didn't take long for that did it?

Bullshit - I agree 100% with what you are saying.

The Germans were just 'following orders' too...

[acmejack]

3. How many tons did we drop on Vietnam?

Or Japan? Germany (think Dresden)? Not defending it, I agree it is abhorrent.

The white phosphorus (willie peter, aka "smoke") is equally bad. We don't even need to discuss cluster munitions. Perhaps we can agree that death is death whether inflicted with a plain old bullet or something more exotic.

Point is all weapons of war are hideous. War is hideous. Let the rich do their own gd killing, I will not fight (again) nor will I allow my taxes pay for others to do so in my stead.

We must take a stand for our principles now, concrete action not mere words which are easy to ignore.

[Imagevision]

4. I agree, it's not the troops. it's Rumsfeld and Cheney torture king

[Pool Hall Ace]

5. I don't think it would be easier to drop fire on men.

But maybe that's just me.

[eyesroll]

6. Why do we still differentiate between men and women here?

Bombing the fuck out of men vs. bombing the fuck out of women is still bombing the fuck out of somebody. I suppose it would depend on whether they were civilians or military (or terrorists, I suppose), enemy or friend, and exactly why I was doing it. (I should add: I have not been in the military, and I have not been trained to kill, even in self-defense, so the answer would still probably be no.)

Children, no, flat out. They didn't sign up for any of this.

[The2ndWheel]

7. Do I get paid?

I'm kidding!!!!

[lonestarnot]

8. Not very much, and I'm NOT kidding.

[The2ndWheel]

11. Unless you're

a mercenary. Can't wait until they officially work for Wal-Mart and Exxon.

[lonestarnot]

13. LOL... Halliburton not good enough?

[The2ndWheel]

16. Good point

But unlike Halliburton, Wal-Mart isn't paying the mercenaries in our "non-negotiable way of life" yet. I think.

[acmavm]

9. And judging from all the serious mental problems our service people

have had since Viet Nam, they don't live with it too easily either. But they do it just the same. Which is where the mental problems come in. An endless cycle. But there comes a time when right has to be defended. We wouldn't (and didn't) accept the German's excuse of "I was just following orders". We don't have the right to demand it as being a justifiable defense for ourselves either.

[soothsayer]

10. This is why rummy wants that amnesia pill for soldiers (seriously),

so they can forget the atrocities they commit.

[acmavm]

14. What are you talking about? You said (seriously). You can't mean that,

can you? Amnesia pill?

[The2ndWheel]

19. Never underestimate

DARPA.

[soothsayer]

21. I'm looking for the links. He wanted one pill to make them go

without sleep for up days, and one that was a sort of 'morning after combat pill' to supposedly eliminate PTSD and other problems that arise from killing fellow human beings, etc.

On edit: It was back in 2003 that they were talking about it.

[oblivious]

12. "The generals love napalm"

"I used it routinely in Vietnam," said retired Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard Trainor, now a prominent defense analyst. "I have no moral compunction against using it. It's just another weapon."

And, the distinctive fireball and smell have a psychological impact on troops, experts said.

"The generals love napalm," said Alles, who has transferred to Washington. "It has a big psychological effect."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html

[Squatch]

15. Are the women and children the intended target or are they collateral?

[NNN0LHI]

17. I don't accept the "collateral" BS

I don't consider the 3000 people killed on 9/11 as "collateral" either. Collateral = Murder

Don

[Squatch]

18. Are they the intended military target or are they people who happen

to be in the same general area as the military target (ie. collateral)

[NNN0LHI]

22. Are you suggesting that the 3000 were "collateral" too?

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/04/inv.newyork.cia.office/

CIA office near World Trade Center destroyed in attacks

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A CIA office operating at 7 World Trade Center was destroyed when the building came down after planes crashed into the twin towers, a U.S. official has confirmed to CNN.

The official said the destroyed CIA office was engaged in counterterrorist and counterintelligence operations. "We're relocated, and we're in operation," said the official.

Officials looked for documents to make sure none had scattered, and that they have "no reason to believe" any materials got into the hands of the "wrong people," the source said.

The official would not discuss precisely what type of activities were conducted at the undercover office. The New York Times reported that the office "was, among other things, a base of operations to spy on and recruit foreign diplomats stationed at the United Nations, while de-briefing selected American business executives and others willing to talk to the CIA after returning from overseas."

[Squatch]

23. No...I am asking a goddamned straightforward question.

Are these women and children deliberately the target or are they bystanders?

[gratuitous]

24. What's the difference?

That people who oculdn't defend themselves from bombers and couldn't get away were blown into eternity by some guy pushing a button five miles above them who was already heading for home when the ordnance exploded. I'm not sure I understand what the difference is -- are they the target or not? They get blown to bits either way, and the flight crew that did it is sitting back at the base.

Is it excusable or somehow ameliorated because the bombers rained down death on them meaning to hit someone else?

[Squatch]

26. Sometimes the combatants use restricted facilities and innocent

bystanders as cover for organizing, planning, and launching military operations, and therefore render those facilities legitimate targets.

The innocent bystanders are an incredibly sad facet of warfare that must be attoned for by those combatants who chose to use them as cover.

Personally, I think I would have a very hard time if, through the engagement of an approved target I killed people who had nothing to do with the conflict.

[gratuitous]

30. So why would you participate in such an enterprise?

Wow, you've really lost your way if you can make even such a tenuous assertion toward "legitimate targets" that includes civilians, and I'm wasting my time trying to persuade you otherwise.

Except to say this: Under your rules of engagement, the September 11 attacks against the World Trade Center Towers and the Pentagon were perfectly justified as military targets. After all, there were plenty of offices in those buildings being used "for organizing, planning and launching military operations."

[NNN0LHI]

25. I already told you above it makes no difference

Murder is murder. You can play all the fucking words games you want to but its still murder.

Anyone who drops thousands of pounds of bombs from 30,000 feet into an urban area full of civilians and later claims "oh my goodness do you think that there might be some innocent civilians down there" is full of shit.

Is that clear enough for you now?

Don

[Squatch]

28. And I disagree with you

[LostinVA]

29. Agreed -- n/t

[wake.up.america]

32. I certainly hope they are NOT intended Targets!

By the way, I once saw FCA Augsburg play in Rosenaustadion.

[madokie]

20. I'm just glad I wasn't ever put in a position to do any of these

atrocities that our brave soldiers are encouraged to do in this * war.
I'm sure I would still be in Leavenworth. Personally I believe all living things feel happiness, sadness and pain, even the bugs that hit my windshield.

on edit: I'm not sure encouraged is the right word but for the lack of

[Neecy]

27. No

I watched American Experience on PBS last night - it was about the war with Japan - and they showed the aftermath of our firebombing of Tokyo with Dow's first version of Napalm. Horrible scenes. They interviewed a Japanese woman who described the agonizing death of her mother after her hair caught fire.

This was a wholly civilian area we firebombed, and LeMay knew that it was densely populated. We killed 100,000 civilians in that raid and LeMay commented afterward that if the United States had lost the war he would have been tried as a war criminal. Makes ya real proud, doesn't it? It's amazing how casually we've targeted civilians in wartime, whether it be Tokyo, Dresden, Vietnam or Iraq. Shameful.

[WinkyDink]

31. There is NO LAW that a soldier must obey an illegal command.

Quite the contrary.

[Kailassa]

33. But once you are in the military, you are brainwashed

to carry out orders without thought, without question, without delay.
You are treated in a way that destroys your self-esteem.
You are left only seeing yourself as worthwhile
as long as you are a functioning part of the big war machine.

You are in a group where everyone is similarly trained,
so you are exposed to enormous peer group pressure.

You have absolutely no support if you decide to swim against the tide,
and you can be sure the military will extract its revenge on you,
which, in a war zone, is very easy to do.

I'm not disputing that there are heroes who have stood up to the system.
I'm not disputing that some people here could manage to.
But the sad fact of the matter is that most will not,
and the bastards giving the orders know there will always be someone to carry them out.
And some who will even enjoy it.

I hope the soldiers who have been involved in these sort of deeds will see how terrible such things were
and find forgiveness and healing when they return.