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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:47 PM
Original message
No exit polls tomorrow? Anyone else smell a rat?
The Hotline is reporting that there will be no exit polls in Virginia, New Jersey or California for tomorrow's elections.

I find that extremely troubling!!

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2005/11/election_night.html
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1.  Why? They are a fairly recent thing.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. That's exactly my point
Why no exit polls?

Even Dick Morris said they are almost always accurate, because they take the pulse of voters as they leave the voting booth.

And he said how he even commisssioned exit polls to be done, when he went to work for Vicente Fox's campaign in Mexico, because he was afraid the election would be stolen from Vicente Fox.

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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. They take the pulse of the voters who tell the truth.
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 11:02 PM by GrumpyGreg
I always lied because it's none of the questioner's damned business who I voted for.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. LOL! Did you really lie?
I've never been exit polled as I left my polling place.

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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Yep,I always lie and I'm always questioned. I have an honest
face,I guess.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. face is irrelevant.
if you're conducting a reasonable survey, you take down the responses as given. you can't use your discretion to discard some responses just because you suspect a lie based on facial expressions or whatever.

in any event, if you believe elections are conducted fairly, then feel free to lie. but exit polls are one of the few protections we have against rigged elections, especially where there's no paper trail.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
40. What's next, some of that "Bush voters failed to respond" bullshit?
Sheesh!

Obvious, obvious, obvious.

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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #11
46. So why didn't you simply decline to participate?
And, oh yes, it's nothing personal, but they're not interested in your opinion standing alone. They are interested in aggregated views of the electorate.
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Boo Boo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Exit polls are a fairly recent thing?
I guess that all depends on what the meaning of "recent" is.

:eyes:
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
44. I think the poster was being sarcastic n/t
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. "Recent" as in about 40 years.
http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-histpoll,1,3776189.htmlstory?coll=la-util-times_poll

Bud Lewis, an early pioneer of the art and science of survey research, was generally credited with inventing the art of exit polling in the late sixties...
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. So I guess...
...you would much rather see more elections stolen than won fair and square?

Exit polls are pretty close to accurate. If they weren't they wouldn't have had them as long as they have.

Sheesh!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. I imagine we won't be seeing many exit polls in 06 elections
where it really would be noticed most -- What do they do say close race, but Repugs won by a narrow victory again and again...!

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janedoe Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. And, how will we know the exit polls are honest?
If they are willing to steal an election, aren't they willing to buy off a polling firm? Or buy off individual pollsters?

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes I find that troubling...
In California here....down with the 70's
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. I guess nobody wanted to pay for them.
It's happened before.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Christ tho, why should accurate voting COST someone something?
Why should an audit cost someting?


Why should the will of the people be soemthing unaffordable for the people?
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
47. They're not audits...they're polls....paid for by the campaigns
for their own purposes, and released to the media.

from the article linked in the OP:

The campaigns will rely on small surveys of selected precincts to determine turnout, but there will be no large-scale campaign-sponsored exit polls.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. So if people supposedly "lie" about them and "they have no useful value"
post the election, why fucking pay for them. Let's just announce winners now.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Well, they must have had some value to the campaigns...and they
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 08:56 AM by mcscajun
probably had some factor taking lies into account. It's not like human behavior is that unpredictable.

Bottom line, we don't have any exit polls for these particular races. Campaign decision. No conspiracy.

I'll announce winners now: Kaine and Corzine! :woohoo:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Like those announcements!
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. We got to get a handle on that...
that's our last line of defense.

The Dems need their own polls. In one election a group was doing a parallel election to monitor the results.



A couple days ago Kaine was up by 10 in VA. Suddenly it's close.

xxxxxxxxxxxtremly troubling.

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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I don't recall
any poll showing Kaine up by that much.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Exactly
That race has been neck and neck....neither one of them has been able to pull away from the other.
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
54. I was refering to this Roanoke Poll, Kaine by 8 points

But maybe it's not that reliable.


Well, guess what? It looks like they were wrong on all counts. And today comes the latest evidence, in the form of a Roanoke College poll showing Tim Kaine surging ahead of Jerry Kilgore by 8 points, 44%-36%! In other words, according to this poll, Tim Kaine is leading Jerry Kilgore by between 3 and 13 points right now.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
48. Yet the campaigns in the states mentioned declined to pay for any
exit polls this time around:

from the article linked in the OP:

The campaigns will rely on small surveys of selected precincts to determine turnout, but there will be no large-scale campaign-sponsored exit polls.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. many rats. no exit polls in those three states tomorrow - its blatant
why not?

What is the reason?

It has to be bullshit.
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. there are rarely
exit polls in odd numbered years. They are too expensive to pay for for just a few states.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Thank you
They didn't have them in 2001 either. We won every significant race. Conspiracies are a nickel a million around here.
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Dancing_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Democratic National Committee could afford to do them!
It's hard to believe that Howard Dean could be so absurdly asleep at the switch!
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. If they had listened to me in 02 it would be old hat by now.
Every precinct should have a table set up on the perimeter with a notary and a clipboard.

Democrats sign in as they leave and register who they voted for.
I know it's a secret ballot, but is it really?? Would a person whose car is plastered with Kerry stickers be ashamed to say they voted for him?

anyway..

if polling station #4 has a notarized list of 400 people who voted for candidate A, and the Diebold count is 260, then every single person who signed in can be contacted....

We simply MUST have parallel checks until people can trust the system .. NO ONE trusts it anymore.
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Paper ballots NOW! Hand counts NOW!!!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Impeachment NOW!!!
:patriot:

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. Ban vote counting and tabulating machines NOW !
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Some places are doing "parallel elections" and they can use volunteers
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 11:06 PM by bananas
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think it is great. There will be no "leaks" of polls having Dems
winning and giving cause to some dem in a heavily democratic riding lining up for one diebold machine to go home! No "telling yourself your vote doesn't matter". Just like it is supposed to be. (It is illegal to leak exit polls before polls have closed).



:bounce: Remember the exit polls were wrong in many ridings without diebold machines. They are crap!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I agree as far as not having predictions during polling hours.
But after the elections, they'd be important to see.

There's a disquieting odor.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Except that exit polls were off in places that didn't have diebold. So
all that prooves is that exit polls are off.

I agree it would be nice to be able to check after... I know.. there is a story about the Americans needing to invent a space marker. One that would write ink upside down in zero gravity. The U.S. spend 1 Billion developing that space pen. The Soviets - they used pencils!!!

Paper Ballots Now!!!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You wrote...
"Except that exit polls were off in places that didn't have diebold. So
all that prooves is that exit polls are off."

Run that by a logic teacher, will ya?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. People who do the stats on the diebold vote being off - assume that
the exit polls were correct in the ridings and use that (often - and I know - corrected by statisticians) as the base of comparison.

How on earth when the exit polls were of in random places can you use them as a basis of the test to tell you diebold votes were stolen?

If - in many instances the exit polls were off where there were paper ballots - you cannot assume that they would universally be statistically significant in the ridings where diebold was.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I really don't know what the statistitions assume.
From what I see of that debate, it depends who you ask.

What you wrote, on it's face, isn't logical.

I'm not an exit poll "true believer". But I'm all but convinced Kerry won.

I know you think * won. We'll leave it at that.

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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I don't think Bush won fair & square. I know he didn't win in 2000. I
think that exit polls being released at midday - claiming Kerry had a win - kept millions of American Dems from voting "oh - he won - forget the babysitter" "oh he won - I don't have to stand in this lineup of one million people in a dem riding lining up to one machines".

All sorts of weird things happened. And - like it was stated today - karl rove told the Brits he would wait until 2004 for them to join the war. Now why was 2004 the deadline for the Brits to show up? Hmmm. Why did Karl need a war by 2004?

So - no - I think the election was taken in all sorts of evil ways. Just not diebold machines.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Then I misunderstood your previous posts. n/t
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I'm looking at the issue in all its complexity. I don't buy diebold but
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 01:54 AM by applegrove
I do worry about transparency. And nefarious people in the WH. As hard as it is - I try and be discerning even when dealing with lying liars in the WH. I pick through things. And if it doesn't work for me - if there isn't prooof - I don't jump. I wish people would admit diebold was speculation. It will really result in a wedge if we cannot agree that we do not know on that one. That we have to agree to disagree.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. No, I do not smell a rat.
I smell three.
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. So true and so sad. eom
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. I smell a rat too. Exit polls have been used for a very long time
in this country and around the world to determine the level of fraud used.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. Are optical scans diebold?
Greene county in Missouri just switched.

We have some election tomorrow. I'll go vote just to observe. I don't think we have any major issues on the ballot.
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
33. And AAR reported Schwarzenegger predicts an "upset victory" tomorrow.
Found it here:

Recent independent polls have shown the proposals are on shaky ground. Schwarzenegger has predicted an upset victory.

Full story here: http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=50730

Curious.

wf
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Disturbing, especially in light of the fact that all polls show him LOSING
big time...

If he wins, is this how he will explain it? A "Upset Victory" because he's so POPULAR and people came out in droves to support him?

Hardly...
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #39
57. I thought the same thing.
I'm trying to think of anything else we can do to help get out the vote and try to assure clean elections in these states today.

wf
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. We must get everyone out to vote and vote NO...We can't
take anything for granted...We've got to get out the vote and vote NO!
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SmileMaker Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
35. This is why we need to do our own exit polls
I wanted to try a parallel election in NJ but it was impossible to get any group to go along with it. I must admit, I got a late start -- but I did a lot of work on it that can be used by others.

Here is the ballot and flyer I created in .doc format
Citizen's Audit Exit Poll Flyer
http://www.princeton.edu/~slalbert/citizensaudit.doc

Citizen's Audit Exit Poll Ballot
http://www.princeton.edu/~slalbert/ballot-1.doc

and one of several posts that I made to get people interested in doing this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=398114&mesg_id=398129


Below is an e-mail exhange (kind of long) I had with Josh Mitteldorf that sort of sums up the conclusion of my desperate plea for statistical credibility. Josh told me what so many others did, the results won't be considered credible without the gravitas of Zogby or Mitofsky. Last week, I spoke with a legislative assistant of Rush Holt's. They think that some of the ideas I've explored are a good way to protect our vote until Rush's bill gets passed (if it ever does even get to the floor, that is!). I'm going to keep exploring this and I hope you'll all join me


He asked how he could help ...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan
To: "Josh Mitteldorf"
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: How you can help...


> First, thanks for your reply and congratulations to you and the others for your newest paper. It's too bad that what you
> have all discovered has received such scant media attention. Democratic Underground and other bloggers are busy
> sending to the media outlets - so, hopefully that will soon change.
>
> So how can you help.... well, let me count the ways!
>
> What I need most is credibility. I'm an ordinary citizen (mother of
> teenagers) with a lot of concern that votes be counted
> accurately. I have no expertise in math/statistics but I am willing to
> take leadership of this at least in one polling place.
> If I do this, I'll need someone with credibility who could either be
> physically present in Princeton on election day or
> available by phone to get the most articulate response possible to media
> inquiries.
>
> Besides a test of the paperless Sequoia machines used in the district I
> chose, I'd like to use this as an opportunity to
> raise awareness about the auditibility problem. Also, it would be good
> to experiment with citizen exit polls as we
> prepare for what to do when 2006 arrives and nothing has been done about
> auditable voting systems by then.
>
> So...
>
> what do you think of the idea of a citizen's audit? Did you see the
> ballot? What do you think? Is there a better way that
> you would suggest to audit votes? We are able to vote absentee now w/o an
> excuse. My other thought is to have Dems
> encourage absentee ballots and have every voter make a copy of their
> ballot and let the dem party know that they did
> that. That is not likely to happen though from what I've seen of the
> Corzine campaigns seeming lack of attention to the
> auditability issue. (Rush Holt tried to make it an issue with the
> campaign, but it went nowhere. I saw him last week and
> begged him to keep after them!).
>
> How big of a sample is necessary to make it statistically reliable? (in terms of percentage of voters since it will probably
> not be a huge turnout)
>
> Is it necessary to be present throughout the entire voting day at one
> polling place to get the best sample?
>
> If you think that citizen's exit polls are a good idea, would I be able to
> do it under the banner of the project you are
> involved with and you could be the lead consultant on the project (unless
> you know of someone better who would be
> willing to help)?
>
> I see that you are part of a math forum. What is it that you do there?
>
> Do you have anyone in your mathforum network in Princeton that has
> expressed interest in the election analyses that
> you've been involved in since the '04 election.
>
> Do you know where the best place at Princeton University to look for the
> people who would be interested in doing it
> would be? I've already tried Princeton Votes, College Dems and a new
> locally focused political institute at Woodrow
> Wilson School (poli-sci dept). ACLU-NJ is doing other things and turned
> down this idea due to concerns about signature
> (optional) and partisanship (I prefer non-partisan). There are some of
> the best activists in NJ involved in ACLU voter
> protection but, it's too late to argue with them for this election. I
> haven't tried the math dept. at Princeton yet, but I will if I
> know that what I'm doing is a project that would have the credibility to
> attract volunteers.
>
>
> In Mercer Co. Sequoia e-voting machines are used and they do not have
> paper trail capability. NJ just passed
> legislation this year that will make it mandatory by '08, but a lot of
> harm can be done before that happens, especially if
> Forrester wins or steals the election. He's closing in on Corzine and I
> bet he'll be digging into the bag of GOP dirty tricks
> right before election day.
>
> I work in a library now, but have a lot of
> experience as an after-school educator and have
> designed some engaging programs that were popular with students. What
> I've learned from raising my own kids and
> trying to educate an after school programs is that whatever you want to
> teach them carries more weight when it is being
> done in partnership with regular teachers in school. It seems that
> everyone agrees that kids need to be more math-
> literate and more civicly engaged. This project seems like a perfect way
> to do both.
>
> My original idea was to engage students of math and civics/social studies
> in college, HS and middle school in the exit
> poll project so that they could use the exercise as an authentic learning
> activity that would provide good practical
> experience with statistical analyisis (depending on their level) and the
> democratic process. Making a project like this an
> opportunity for extra credit or even part of the curriculum seems like an
> efficient way to take our democracy back while
> giving kids a real project that produces numbers that mean something that
> they have a stake in.
>
> Their future depends on how fairly our votes are counted. Their
> engagement in the process before they are allowed to
> vote could be a good motivator for participation when they do become
> eligible. Finally, young people are the ultimate
> non-partisan constituency. If corrupt adults are considering fraud with
> e-voting machines, or if the machines simply do
> not work and citizens, especially young ones, are auditing the election in
> a way that is as reliable as a professional exit
> poll outfit, and without the conflicts that corporate control of data
> brings - then it might deter fraud and inspire the
> manufacturers of the machines to make/test products that reliably count
> votes.
>
> So, I hope you have some brilliant suggestions or like the ones I have
> proposed enough to get involved in a way that
> would give it credibiltiy.
>
> Thanks so much for listening and all that you've done already to preserve
> our right to have our votes count.
>
> Take care,
>
> Sue
> "The most violent element in society is ignorance." Emma Goldman

Susan-
I'm a little overwhelmed by the breadth of your message. I think that
local citizens watching the process is essential to safeguarding our
election system. Whatever laws or procedures we manage to establish, they
will be easily subverted if there aren't people like you present in the
polling places, standing guard against hanky-panky.
I don't think, however, that exit polling is how non-professionals can be
most useful. This is because (1) you have to have a larger sample than a
few people can put together in order to be statistically convincing, and (2)
you have to have the credibility of a Mitofsky or a Zogby to get attention
from the press. So my opinion is that you can be most useful by deterring
bad behavior with your presence, and by reporting publicly the bad behavior
that you witness.
BTW - the latest USCV paper referred to on the DU site is not really my
work, and I am in the process of having my name removed from it. It is more
contentious than I'm comfortable with - not just against our enemies but
against our friends as well.
-Josh


>
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
38. Exit polls aren't done to detect fraud in this country
They are done so media organizations can look at trends and maybe make some early calls.

None of the media organizations feel like paying for them for these elections.

Bloomberg and Corzine will win handily, why waste money on exit polls?

The only real race is in Virginia, and apparently the media can wait until the returns come in.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. They're done for and by the campaigns, for the most part.
Then they get released to media outlets.

from the article linked in the OP:

The campaigns will rely on small surveys of selected precincts to determine turnout, but there will be no large-scale campaign-sponsored exit polls.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. That just goes along with their talking points
"Exit polls are flawed"
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Yet, it is the voting mechanism that is flawed, not the exit polls./nt
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
56. The Dems are COMPLICIT! No other explanation for it.
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