Really creepy Sunday morning

[mtowngman]

I go to the catholic church in town, in fact my wife and I are members. The church certainly has its issues, and I don't agree with all of its doctrine, but my particular parrish does alot of good social justice work, and they've always been cool about not pushing the political agenda.
This morning as we walked up to church we were approached by a man I knew only from church and I was asked to volunteer. They were giving out baby bottles to make people aware of the "abortion alternative" counseling center nearby. We politely moved along without getting into a debate on the church steps.
Unfortunately, it wasn't over. About halfway through mass, the priest stepped up to the pulpit and instead of delivering his homily(catholic for sermon) he said we would have a guest speaker. Up to the pulpit steps yellow ribbon, white bread,church lady and introduces herself as the director of the above mentioned counseling center and starts in about New Jersey being first in the nation this and third in third trimester that and a non parental notification state the other thing. Meanwhile, these other two creeps are pushing a giant screen T.V. in front of the alter and the next thing you know, we're watching a 10-15 minute pro life video, right in the middle of mass! I was stunned.
Now I'm ashamed to say wife and agreed that we didn't walk out only for the sake of civic politeness. The baby bottles given out were supposed to be filled with money and returned at a mass in December. Needless to say, we didn't take one. I left church this morning feeling like I needed a shower.

[noahmijo]

1. I'm a laspe Catholic I've had it with organized religion personally

and your story is a complete example as to why I believe organized religion ALL organized religion I don't care if it's Christian or Islam or Jewish it's nothing but a business pure and simple.

Organized Religion in a sentence is one of the most successful corporations in the world nevermind Halliburton or Microsoft you wanna be rich start a freakin church and the sheep will flock.

[Moochy]

62. I'm an agnostic raised as a catholic

Power corrupts. You should report this priest to the bishop. I don't think this is legit in terms of Church rules, and that priest should be sanctioned.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

2. Send this story to the local IRS office

and your Senators and Congressman.

Send exactly what you wrote here, and ask them how the Church gets away with doing this while remaining tax-exempt.

Good luck.

[Swamp Rat]

14. I agree.

It is a good course of action. :)

[MojoXN]

3. If you go to a church, what do you expect?

Seriously, did you expect to find non-pushy progressivism at a CHURCH? Come on now, it's a Jesus-worshipper factory. Didn't you know that Jesus was anti-abortion and pro-war? Did you expect something different from his alleged "followers"? :sarcasm:

MojoXN

[RagAss]

4. I left the church when I was 16.....I outgrew it....

[ixion]

5. sorry, but your church should lose its tax emempt status

any church that gives time or support to political causes should be, IMO.

[whatever4]

17. I side with that statement

I wish we could pretend we still cared about any concept of separating church and state, and to me that was the most basic line they crossed.

I want to add, I have to add, when I read this
"...we didn't walk out only for the sake of civic politeness."
I have to level with you, I have no respect for that. Everyone has been doing that, and has keep on doing that, and while you sit in church proclaiming morals, you give them all away, for popularity. You knew it was wrong, in fact, you weren't alone in that. You sat and allowed them to perform their display uninterrupted. Wouldn't it have been better if someone had interrupted them, and honestly, shouldn't you have been a part of that?? You sat and did nothing. I'm sorry, but, it's true. I had to say it. We speak in friendly voices and never argue, when, we should have argued. We should have argued a LOT.

It's what's gotten where we are in the first place. It's why Bush "won" the 2004 election, and why we went to war. People never stood up...even when all it would have cost them was some embarrassment and maybe some friends.

It's going to cost us all so much more later.

It would have been so much cheaper...

[mtowngman]

23. I wasn't

really looking for your respect as I wrote that I was ashamed for not getting up and leaving. I hope you're able to do better if you're ever in a similar situation. Meanwhile, if sharing my story does nothing else, at least you're feeling pretty self righteous now. Peace.

[whatever4]

36. I'm sorry

I know you weren't looking for my respect, just as you knew you wouldn't find any. And I truly am sorry. It was something I felt I had to say.

"I hope you're able to do better if you're ever in a similar situation."

Me too, I hope I am able. I hope we all are. I hope more Americans have learned a lesson about passively saying nothing. Rest assured I'm one of those people that would, but that kind of thing has always come easily to me. I grew up not Christian in the midwest. I generally stood out whether I wanted to or not, and and I know with a certainty that if there is a hell, I'm going straight to it. I've been told since childhood. Gleefully, with feeling, in chorus...in front of everybody. Sure, prayer in school, it's a good thing, sure. Better not go there, I get unreasonable

"Meanwhile, if sharing my story does nothing else, at least you're feeling pretty self righteous now."

OH, haha. lol. I don't blame you for saying that. Hardly feeling self righteous, but I don't blame you. I only said it because you didn't, exactly, you wrote it off to social pressure. I felt that you needed someone to say it wasn't a good excuse. I felt the need to point out that so many of us have done that polite shrug, just to avoid uncomfortable situations (like this one) that it is WHY we are where we are today. It is. It's exactly why, and a lot of it happened in churches, because the evangelicals are the base of the neocons. We all know we're going to pay a HELL of a price later for our silence.

I thought it was obvious, but I guess it wasn't, that imho the fact that you wrote to us about that incident showed plainly that you DO care and you aren't apathetic or selfish. I truly was targeting behavior and not the person. I don't feel self righteous. I don't blame you for being a normal human being, I'd have felt the same in your place. Any of us could have been in that situation, and chosen one path or another. It helps to remember our collective voices at times like that, you aren't alone even if you're alone at the time. The whole world watches, even if we watch through your eyes later when you relate it.

So...if this particular post and poster gave you something to confront...did it help? I'm not being sarcastic. Unless and until someone confronted you on this, you had no one to attack, defend, or discuss. I welcome the confrontation. You deserve someone to yell at. We all do. It's not fair to feel so sold out. But who are you going to tell, your community that suddenly doesn't seem to care? Alone in a crowd of followers, is it right to raise your voice?

I'm willing to bet the next time something like that happens, you'll have more of a mind to say or do something. But not because of anything I say. Because of how it feels to remember it, and tell it, and gain perspective. Now you've had a chance to know how you feel. Sometimes, imho, it takes instances like that a few times to be mentally prepared to stand up, unexpectedly, to situations that feel wrong while everyone around seems to agree.

I know that. I really do. I know you do too. I know I'm not any better than you. Likely, I'm worse. I had to learn this the hard way, with plenty of guilt. No pride here. I'm not a shrink or anything close, but I think it helps to stand in solidarity with someone when they've faced a situation like that. You might feel like you didn't do the right thing, and I think I agree, and that's okay, and it's good to share. You shared it because you wanted moral backup. I give you moral backup.

And I say next time you'll feel less alone when and if the world around you goes a little nuts, and you'll choose a brave course, because you know embarrassment isn't worth feeling like this later. No matter what you do, it will be more likely to be the right thing to you later.

I know, very well, that just the fact that you saw it as something somewhat immoral (the presentation and video), and posted about it, shows your ethics. Maybe it was a mistake, and you shared it. I agree, it was a mistake. I don't mind sharing it, I've made mistakes too. I'm not out to insult your faith or you, just what you did, which I think you wanted. Rather opposite of insulting, because you percieved a problem and are concerned about it. If more people had second thoughts and musings like that, we wouldn't be in the shape we're in. Goes without saying; you didn't have to say anything here either. But you did. You tried to right the situation later as best you could. We all do that sometimes, but not always in such an open, "go ahead and take a shot" kind of way. Taking a risk of embarassment and losing friends on here. Something you didn't have to do. But you did. I think you stood up here, and for what it's worth, I respect you. I thank you, and peace.

[mtowngman]

77. Thank You

[whatever4]

54. As opposed to this case...

Yanking tax-exempt status looks to be exactly what's happening. Except for the political side, that is.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CA_ANTIWAR_SERMON_CAOL-?SITE=CADIU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Pasadena church faces federal sanctions for anti-war sermon

PASADENA, Calif. (AP) -- One of the state's largest and most liberal churches could lose its tax-exempt status because of an anti-war sermon that a former rector delivered two days before the 2004 presidential election, according to the Internal Revenue Service.

In his sermon, the Rev. George F. Regas did not urge parishioners at All Saints Episcopal Church to support either George Bush or his opponent, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass. But he was sharply critical of the Iraq war and Bush's tax cuts.

There you go, freedom on the march...

[BobRossi]

6. Reformed catholic myself. nm

[YouthInAsia]

7. i would leave that place, stat. that was totally uncalled for

[aquart]

8. Tell me again why you stayed to watch.

And then tell me what you told your priest, to his face, before you left.

[mike_c]

9. do something about it....

Start a dialog with your fellow parish members-- if you can be a christian and still accept that some secular rights are more important than your religious beliefs-- or that your religious convictions are not in conflict with those secular rights-- then there are likely others who believe the same. Why aren't your voices being heard? Why don't you find some like-minded folks and approach your priest to request equal time to air your views? If there aren't any like-minded folks, then maybe that's where you should start. Do your views have any merit? If they do, you should be able to articulate them and try to convince others.

I'm not a christian, but one of the things that irks me the most is the way the fundys and their ilk have come to speak for much of mainstream christianity in America. Until CHRISTIANS start to speak out against them, they will simply continue to hijack your religion. Just my $0.02.

[Divernan]

10. If there're no complaints from members, this will happen often.

I think you have a valid complaint that to interrupt a Mass for this is not appropriate, and that such programs should be scheduled for other times. What kind of reaction did you observe among the rest of the congregation? Next time maybe they can hand people the baby bottles as they take communion! Or put the wine (to be transubstantiated into Christs' blood, if I recall my catechism) in a baby bottle instead of a chalice. I left the Church decades ago, but I still recall the Kill a Commie for Christ attitude.

[mtowngman]

13. The man sitting next to my wife

had his six year old daughter sittnig next to him asking, "Daddy, what are they talking about?", the man was clearly annoyed.

[Rich Hunt]

37. I agree

You should talk to the priest about it. Tell him you don't feel comfortable hearing those views, that it's inappropriate for Mass.

[Canuckistanian]

11. If you're pro-choice you should know your church is anti-abortion

Expect to have more of these "uncomfortable" moments. The anti-abortion faction of the Catholic Church is growing more and more influential.

I listen to a Catholic shortwave radio station and sometimes it's like listening to Hannity or Limpballs when it comes to social commentary.

Does your priest agree with this? Can you have a talk with him?

[mtowngman]

15. One of the things church lady

did before she was done was thank the Monsignor of the church and the diocese of Trenton for their "blessing".

[redwitch]

52. Hey, I grew up Catholic in the Trenton diocese, moved away 15 years ago.

My pastor now is pro-chioce, he told me so at a Dem booth before the last presidential election. I am about a nano second away from leaving the church over stuff like this. Really, I am a Catholic out of habit I guess. There are many things I love about the church, esp. my parish. Lots of great people who are cafeteria Catholics like me and you. Great pastor, I do find comfort going. I am beginning to realize though that in spite of many great social justice causes the church participates in, the anti gay and anti choice stuff is about to drive me out. Hubby left a year ago, oldest son left just before him. I am hanging by a thread. I wouldn't have walked out, I don't think. I more than likely would not return however and would tell my priest why.

[mtowngman]

67. Thank You

I think you understand.

[K8-EEE]

12. The ONLY Thing They Listen To Is When You Quit The Envelopes

I did -- and I told them why.

[Rocknrule]

16. I think the South Park where Cartman forms a Christian rock band

sums it up nicely:

"We know enough about Christianity to exploit it"
"If we just talk about how much we love Jesus everyone will buy our crap"

[madrchsod]

18. find another church

clearly these people who run this church do not believe in themselves and their message. if they have to bring in outsiders to convince their congregation of their message i think they are not worthy to be priests.
or do like i did-take what i learned as a child and live my life accordingly..it`s worked quite well for me

[Obamarama]

19. What are you pissing and moaning about? You stayed and WATCHED.

It's not like they forced you sit and suffer through their propaganda song and dance number. By your own admission you chose not to leave so as, presumably, not to make any waves. I rather think had you not given into your social cowardice, you'd feel less like you needed to take a shower.

[mtowngman]

21. I hope

that if you're ever in a similar situation, you'll act in a more morally acceptable manner than I did. I appreciate your input as I know how difficult it must be to read what someone else has to share and read that they're sorry for their inaction and still resist the self righteous would've, should've, could've stuff. Thanks for straightening me out, friend.

[BiggJawn]

43. It only hurts for a little while....

...to stand up, declare "I don't agree with this" (I have said "This is BULLSHIT!")and leave.

I'm not going to bust youur chops on sitting there "being polite", because others (whatever4) have done so in a much more loving way than I can.

I just want to encourage you to be BOLD next time, and I think there WILL be a next time, since they got a warm reception for their message. (I wonder how many bottles will be returned next month stuffed full of 20's and 50's?)

It only hurts a little while. Maybe next week most people won't remember that you walked out, but I have to ask, after seeing that your Parish Priest condones such displays, why would you want to RETURN to that particular church?

Just BE BOLD.

[Patiod]

64. Yeah, it's far easier said than done

I sat through a LOT of abortion lectures in the archdiosis of Philadelphia, because I didn't want to embarrass my parents by walking out. I'm sure if I did walk out, there would be a lot of talk "oh, I wonder if she had an abortion".

If you have kids in the schools, there's even more reason for not walking out.

I beat myself up a lot over the years for not getting up and walking out, but I never did it, until I finally just stopped going altogether, and found a different religion.

Are there any liberal congregations in your area, like St. Vincent's in Camden?

[BillZBubb]

20. Ask for equal time to present a critique of the illegal Iraq war.

The Catholic Church (supposedly) opposed the war. I'm sure you can get a 10-15 minute BBC clip or something from Frontline about the war.

See how the church responds to THAT!

[deadparrot]

22. Welcome to the shunned Catholic group.

:hi:

This has been going on for over a year now in our diocese...ever since last year, when our RW archbishop said that you would go to hell if you voted for Kerry.

[classof56]

24. Last time I went to a Catholic church, the priest pronounced me a heretic

I'm not a Catholic, but I was attending with a relative visiting us from back east. I was quite surprised to hear the priest start in about me being a heretic 'cause I won't declare that the Catholic church is the one true church. My relative was furious and kept apologizing, saying her priest at home would never have said such a thing. I was raised in Baptist churches but RW Christian wackos and Bush have so disturbed me I don't attend any church now. As you might guess, if I should decide to start going again, it won't be to a Catholic church. I especially could not have dealt with the service you attended this morning. I'm willing to bet future topics will include the evils of gay marriage and teaching evolution. Keep us posted.

Tired Old Cynic

[Rich Hunt]

38. well

The church is pro-evolution and has been for quite some time, so you'd really have a strong case if they did that.

[Moochy]

63. I guess I must have only known the non-proselytizing priests

"The one true church" is a slogan :) I have that phrase drummed into my lizard brain from repetition.

Too bad for Father Firebrand, he's not gonna win any converts that way.
Besides he wasnt trying very hard, since proseltyzation isnt the big push with us catholics. You see the wise catholic leaders just outlaw birth control and have 13 member families. ;-)

[B Calm]

25. Seriously, churches need to lose their tax exempt status!

[mcscajun]

28. I second the motion! The sooner, the better.

Seriously.

[Arugula Latte]

26. I hope you and others just leave the Church.

Their base is shrinking, and if they drive more people out they will just keep shrinking.

I really shouldn't respond to religion threads because frankly, I really, really hate religion and I always get in trouble. So I'll just shut up right now before I start going off ...

[mcscajun]

27. Expect a lot more of this kind of thing, and an unsympathetic ear

should you complain.

With your new Pope on a jihad of his own against the go-your-own-way cafeteria Catholicism rampant in Europe and especially America, any dissident priests and parishoners are not going to get any kind of fair hearing or equal treatment.

It's not too late to make a public event out of this, though. There's still plenty of time to make signs you can hold up outside Church before, during and after services...while you're missed inside.

[mtowngman]

29. An earlier poster

said the only thing they'll miss is the collection envelope. I agree.

[mcscajun]

31. Oh they'll Definitely miss the collection envelope. That's a lock. n/t

:evilfrown:

[ThomWV]

30. Stand Up - Loudly Proclaim "This is Bullshit" and Leave

Why on earth would you stay to listen to that shit and why on earth would you not let your view be known. Fuck the church and the idiots that use it as a vehicle for promoting their own agenda. The church allows and encourages it and so they are complicit.

[Cats Against Frist]

32. WTF???

You go to the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church is pro-life, no? (And I actually call them "pro-life," because they're against the war and the death penalty). What do you expect? And if they didn't endorse a candidate, they did nothing wrong.

I hate it when people complain about the Catholic Church, as if we all thought it was a liberal organization. It's a self-defining hierarchy, about patriarchy, order and obedience, with a bloody history and is pretty much responsible for warping Christ's teachings beyond all recognition. The hard right Catholic philosophers are the most anti-modern of the anti-moderns. Why are you surprised?

[Nabia2004]

33. The US Catholic Church use to be considered progressive

The change is rather recent, and still shocks me.

[Rich Hunt]

39. progressive?

You mean like in the 'dark ages' of the fifties through seventies, when the majority of sex abuse claims were made?

My own parish was progressive in the seventies - I believe we had guests from Latin America and all, but judging from the record, they had some huge problems in the past.

[mtowngman]

35. read the post

I clearly said that I didn't agree with all of the church's doctrine and made no illusions about it being a liberal organization. My point was the inappropriateness of the political agenda in the middle of mass. Up until now there were things that I just disagreed with, now I'm disgusted. I've already said that I'm ashamed that I didn't walk out and Ive heard plenty of self righteous, would've, should've, could've, spare us.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. You forgot the part about last October (2004) when they openly

and financially condoned hatred of one's neighbor in their campaign against gay marriage and civil uniions. Now that's political...that's endorsement of hatred.

[hunter]

34. Oh for goodness sakes, make yourself known.

If the Priests and the Bishop don't know you from Adam, who are you to complain?

Most of all, when's the last time you ever saw someone kicked out of Mass?

[seabeyond]

40. i really wish my fellow christians that expereicne these things

in their churches wouldbe able to communicate how unacceptably away fro the message ofchrist this is. some how, we christians are going to have to communicate with our religious brothers and sister that we cannot honor this.

thanks for sharing your story. it is important to stay up and aware on what churches are doing

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. Walking out makes the biggest statement. My son's kindergarten teacher,

a 63 year old life long Catholic, got up and walked out during the gay hatred homilies and I admire her for it. I haven't been back but hearing the courageous stories of others inspires me.

[merbex]

44. This is a long story; I hope you'll bear with me

15 years ago when my youngest was 2 months old, we called the rectory to arrange a date to have her baptized by my husband's uncle who is a pastor in another community

Our church said we had to attend a class (with other new parents) regardless of whether or not we were having a private baptism

So, we get my mother to babysit a 2 year old and an infant, rush home from work, change, and travel in a horrible nor'easter to listen to a priest tell us how to be good Catholic parents

About 15-20 minutes after it started, another young couple came in.The priest said "Well, if this is an example of the level of your committment, I don't know why you bothered to show up."

Everyone was stunned. It was the first time I ever swore in church, I said "asshole"under my breathe and it crossed my mind to get up and leave. I regret to this day that I did not. But except for my baby's baptism we've never been back to church,(for a host of reasons)

Some months later, that priest was indicted for rape of a child,convicted, and is now serving a life sentence

Afew years after that Fr.Geoghan of Boston pedophile fame was also charged (Geoghan served as a priest at this church when I was a child); I received my 1st Communion from Geoghan

The moral of this story is : trust your 1st instincts they are usually correct

[Iris]

45. You should have walked out.

Others may have joined you.

I'm speaking as the god-daugther of a couple who participated in a planned, en masse walk out in the middle of mass 30-odd years ago to protest the church's stance on birth control. Sure, it didn't change the church's policies, but it sure made others (including a future generation) aware that some people question the church's authority in certain matters.

[lostnfound]

46. self-delete

[mtowngman]

68. huh?

[lostnfound]

78. Oh! sorry for the confusion.

That wasn't a mod comment! That was just me having written a long personal comment and realizing that no one at DU probably would give a dam* about what I was trying to say. So I "self-deleted" it.

It was basically my take on it all, which is that just because a religion takes a stance on this issue doesn't mean that it's being partisan. They were playing those films in my church and parochial school back in the 70s, but they were also inviting leftwing speakers from Central America to come speak to us, too. The Democratic party made a choice to include this issue as a centerpiece in the platform. Had they chosen differently -- for example, to not include it at all -- I think the Catholic church would still be focusing on this issue in much the same way.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the impetus within the church is actually political. I'm personally alarmed at the casting aside of the more progressive parts of the church and the buildup of the conservative parts. But since I haven't attended in years, I realized my views are probably completely irrelevant and useless to this discussion. So I decided to shut up about it.

[mtowngman]

80. I thought you were trying to tell me

to somehow ditch this thread and avoid taking any more flack.(attempt at humor)

[truebrit71]

47. Why does this surprise you? Your church is anti-abortion. Always has been.

I am simply amazed at the number of Catholics that talk about how wonderful their church is, except for that pesky anti-woman thing....

David Duke is an okay guy really, except for that "kill the n*ggers" thing...

:eyes:

[verdalaven]

48. I am glad you stuck it out

Thank you for taking a bullet like that for us. It doesn't matter why you stayed, you did, then informed us of what is going on in your church.

Like some of the other posters, I have a fight or flight reaction to anything that smacks of neoconish fascist social conservatism. The minute someone wants to tell me what to think or what I can do with my body I go into apoplectic fits. Or at least that is the reaction I have to fight. The other side is similarly afflicted. We've all read too many stories on DU about bush supporters walking out of a church service the second they hear what they think is opposition to bush. They shut down their higher reasoning centers, shout and call names, then run away. These are people we want to reach and we cannot reach them by employing the same tactics. Approaching them as a peer with similar views and concerns will at least open them to seeing things from another point of view.

Just my opinion. Butting heads never solved any problem.

I agree with other posters that you should speak to your Priest and with other parishioners, and see if you can organize a more effective way to express your views - maybe you and like minded parishioners can turn in your baby bottles with a note of dissent inside instead of money? Show the priest just how many progressives he has in his church. Might open his eyes.....because maybe he is just going along to get along, too?

[noonwitch]

49. The Catholic Church has the right to oppose abortion

If you can't reconcile your faith with that, then it's time to find another church. Episcopalian mass is similar in some ways-they serve the eucharist weekly and recite ritual prayers like the Apostle's Creed. The UCC, UU, Presbytarian USA and Unity are gay-friendly and support liberal causes on the whole. The UMC is split over the issue of gay clergy, but is pretty liberal on most other matters.

[mtowngman]

70. More an issue of the presentation during mass

I don't have an all or nothing relationship with the church, there are several issues with which we disagree.

[Ilsa]

50. I would consider not attending until this date of delivery of $$

in december is over. You know someone is going to be talking about it until then.

[mtowngman]

71. Maybe an opportunty

to redeem myself for not walking out.

[xchrom]

51. ya know -- we liberal episcopalians are looking for liberal catholics

like you folks.

and boy -- do we have liturgy and mass!
we give catholics a good run for dresses and fancy hats.

c'mon over -- we have a great charity organization, strong on ecology, etc and many, many pro-choice members.

at a liberal episcopal church you'll never see stuff like what you experienced.

[mtowngman]

72. Do tell...

I might be interested, liberal church sounds like an oxymoron to this catholic. Feel free to PM.

[ElaineinIN]

79. Hello from a former RC

Now an Episcopalian. Left in the early nineties when the sermon was about how you were going to hell if you didn't chain yourself to the gates of the nearest Planned Parenthood. Was married in the Episcopal church in 1995; later confirmed and my daugther baptized there. My daughter actually goes to the local Catholic school, and I still have a good deal of respect for some of what the Catholic church is about, but I never regret my decision when I go in to the Catholic church and see the fetus posters everywhere.

You'll recognize much of the litergy, and there's plenty of incense to go around especially on Easter (you can tell we are in a partying mood when the incense burner is swung in a full 360 circle!)

[shrike]

53. I left such a church and found another

The RC church is hardly monolithic -- parishes vary so much. But I had a few things happen like you've described at my old church. When the pastor got up one day and asked us to pray for a victory by the U.S./Iraqi forces in Fallujah, I got up and walked out. Never been back.

Occasionally, we get a few right-to-lifers showing up, but they're not allowed on church property -- they have to stand out in the parking lot and hand out their stuff. The pastor here seems sensitive to church and state issues. To my mind, you can oppose abortion, but getting into the political arena -- which candidates to support, etc. -- is crossing the line.

[BlueIris]

55. Even as someone who *would* leave a horror-show like that

no matter where it was inflicted on me...I don't think you should feel bad about not leaving out of respect for the sense of occasion...a courtesy that was not returned to you. At least now you will have a valid point of contention--based in what you may have seen that you found objectionable (not knowing your stance about choice and privacy, I wouldn't know what you might want to say to your church leaders) if you choose to complain to the appropriate people.

[Occulus]

56. Good GOD *when* will you churchgoers realize

YOU HAVE TO STOP THE SERMON WHEN THIS HAPPENS!!!!!

I got a lot of flack on a lot of threads for blaimg "so-called" GOOD Christians who "are working for change so gays are excluded" for not doing enough INSIDE the church, right there and then, when it happens, each and EVERY time. Well, this one's about abortion, and what happened?

SAME DAMN THING!!!

You threw up your hands. You gave up, right then and RIGHT there!!

How can you expect those of us who see your religion as the oppressive scourge it is- TO US- to see it ANY differently when people like you SAY you're working for "change" (whatever that means to you) and then, when faced with this exact type of open bigotry and politicization on a different issue, also do nothing at all!!?!??!

So-called "good Christians", take note. THIS is why I personally am becoming more and more disgusted with Christianity AND ITS FOLLOWERS!!

Jesus!!! And, if it had been about gays, you probably would have just sat through that too. Would you have stood up for ME instead?

Probably not.

Do you expect me to think differently? DO you??

[Jo March]

60. I understand why you are angry

There are those who do stand up, who do say something, who do leave and take their thithes with them. It's happening slowly, however, but it is happening.

I believe that those who are silent are assumed to consent and I'll be darned if I'll go down that path. No one can lead you where you don't want to go or make you believe something that you don't really want to believe. Free will - we all have it.

In taking the big leap of standing up, you are going to give others the courage to do so. If more and more people stand up, then this kind of crap will stop.

If anyone encouragement to stand up in church, you can call on me or any other DUer here. I know that it's difficult but it's neccessary.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

57. Ridiculous.

One of the reasons why I refuse to attend church. Organized religion is going down the tubes.

[yellowcanine]

58. Hmm - I think I would complain to the head of the Diocese. Seems this

priest was way out of line. I am not a Catholic but aren't the rules fairly strict about what priests can do in mass? Even if the homily isn't strictly part of mass (or is it?) I would think there are some guidelines and they don't include commercials, no matter how "rightous" (or not).

[mtowngman]

75. Had the blessing of the diocese

[Francine Frensky]

59. I feel your pain -- I'm in the same boat

at my catholic church, about every third homily is anti-abortion, despite the fact that given the income of our area, I can pretty much guarantee that nobody would have one (and let's put it like this: they wouldn't need roe v. wade to have one; they'd fly to mexico if need be). And they have the abortion crosses out on the church lawn for like two months, and every week we pray for the soldiers "defending our freedom" during the homily...and there's more, but you get the idea.

I feel like speaking up, but I don't want to rock the boat, I like the church and volunteer in many areas, and I have a number of friends there.... but I appreciate your story, I really do. Thanks for sharing it.

[Patiod]

65. FF - I think you've nailed part of it

Churches and synagogues become the center of family life for many people - they volunteer, their kids are involved in the school and/or sports teams and youth groups, people sing in the choir, they have a great relationship with one or more of the priests, ministers or rabbis, they serve on a board, they tutor kids at an inner-city "sister" parish/church, they teach Hebrew school or Sunday school, they work the food cupboard every Tuesday - whatever.

Many, many people feel that they're accomplishing a lot of good in the world through their place of worship. As nauseating as the obsessive anti-abortion rhetoric is (or anti-Palestinian, or anti-gay, or whatever topic you might disagree with), they weigh putting up with it vs. all the good the church/synagogue represents in their life. Not as black-and-white, "that's it, I'm out of here" as you might think.

I left because I had never really gotten involved in the Catholic church, so it was easy. The Quakers were smart - once I started attending regularly, they got me involved with the newsletter, the First Day School (Sunday school), and one of the boards (or, given the Quaker love of debate, The Bored). It would be a lot harder to dis-entangle if they started up on something that was in opposition to my political beliefs....

[mtowngman]

76. Thank You

What makes it worse is that it wasn't a preist getting off on a pro-life homily. These were outsiders coming in. I wonder if everyone who is so quick to critisize my inaction, which I know was wrong, knows what being part of a "parrish" is.

[mnhtnbb]

61. Time to find a new church

I don't know why half the Catholics in the US don't leave the church.

Too bad you didn't get up and walk out. You might have been followed by a lot more people.

[spanone]

66. Churches are state sponsored cults. eom.

[bleedingheart]

69. I would have walked out and voiced my opinion...

In fact...during the 2004 election people at our local catholic church (I am a catholic by the way) got up and yelled at the priest about telling them who to vote for and walked out...

it was pretty wild...

[MadHound]

73. Hello, you're in a Catholic church. What else do you expect?

Why are you so suprised? The man in the pointy hat stated long ago that abortion was forbidden, and that a pro-life position should be pushed onto the faithful. This is what your priest was doing. What, you expected a pro-choice message instead?

It is because of the insanities like this that I gave up organized religion long ago.

[RevCheesehead]

74. Complain to his bishop.

Let him know that worship was interrupted for social commentary, and you are not pleased. Get several of your friends to do the same.

That kind of thing happening in a Catholic mass is COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE.

[GirlinContempt]

81. If you aren't comfortable with the views of your church

find a new one. There are lots of them out there. Saying something to your priest may be a good idea, just to let him know how you feel, however, if other people are good with it, it may be time to find a different place of worship.
Catholics are traditionally anti-abortion, and if you're uncomfortable with the focous I'm sure there are churches out there that don't put emphasis on that aspect.