If Abortion is criminalized, I will become an abortionist.

[benburch]

I feel that strongly about it.

Who is with me?

[murray hill farm]

1. But, but, but....

great skill required to abort safely...i dont have those skills..do you?

[expatriot]

2. are you a doctor with the training?

if so, by all means... if not.... no. there will be enough "underground" doctors to provide services.

[benburch]

4. No, but I can sterilize operating theaters...

guard doors, etc...

In short the non-medical things that need to be done, and I will.

[kestrel91316]

46. You can use my autoclave to sterilize surgical instruments.

:pals:

[lonestarnot]

48. I'll prep the clothes hangers and boil the water.

[Hekate]

86. Jesus H. "Coat hangars" are not a joke, they are deadly

"Coat hangar abortions" are a byword for a desperate, dangerous method of abortion, not a catch-phrase for something easily done. They can cause:

Perforated uterus
Bits left behind resulting in hemorrhage and/or infection
Permanent sterility
Death

Hekate

[Pachamama]

82. I would be a part of the underground bringing women to a safe abortion &

raising money to help take care of their expenses....

I'd also do what your talking about in terms of helping on the actual non-surgical aspects. But maybe I'd also figure out in the underground how to smuggle in RU-486 for non-surgical abortions, thus making "surgery" unnecessary.

But I also imagine that if Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion made illegal that the Bush Cabal would also try to use the Patriot Act and various "laws" they have passed to consider us terrorists or supporters of terrorism and go after us vigilantly.

Doesn't matter though...even if we have to find out about legal "herbal" techniques, I will make sure I help women who have an unwanted pregnancy to be able to terminate it safely. Even if that means raising funds for roundtrip tix to Canada or Europe.

[TahitiNut]

85. GMTA. See my post below, particularly regarding the Mann Act.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5282039&mesg_id=5282455

[NNadir]

16. No but he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Couldn't help it.

[benburch]

21. Bad.

:spank:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

3. One of the best ways to do that

is to re-educate ourselves on the time-tested abortificants of the past. Learn and share herblore, rootlore. Create an RU 486 black market.

Moreover, the real effect of overturning Roe will be to kick the issue back to the several states. That means we progressives, we liberals, we democrats, we DECENT PEOPLE will have to be ready to put decency aside to go toe-to-toe and head-to-head with the "Christian" pasty faced old white men and stepford wives of the anti-woman movement. And we'll have to do it in the streets.

Are we up to that? Or would we rather sing a rousing chorus of "kum-by-yah" and pray for the oppressors?

"When abortion is outlawed, only outlaws will have abortions."

[knowbody0]

7. i was going to say these things!

great minds!

[TahitiNut]

32. Helping create an "Underground Railroad" to states where it's legal ...

... might be another activist option. :shrug:

I feel sure the fascist-fundies would resurrect and extend the provisions of the Mann Act in retaliation. It'd make for interesting litigation, to say the least.

[benburch]

54. The flaw here is assuming the Feds will allow the states to control this.

I think they will find some way of taking the decision totally out of the hands of the states.

These neo-stalinists are totally about central control and planning of EVERYTHING.

[...of J.Temperance]

59. What is the Mann Act again? I've forgotten n/t

[TahitiNut]

67. It's sometimes called the "White-Slave Traffic Act"

It's often summarized as "banning the interstate transport of females for immoral purposes."

Thus, if one were to assist a pregnant woman to travel from a state where abortion was banned to a state where it was legal, that might be called an "immoral purpose."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Act

[...of J.Temperance]

73. That's right

Thanks and I read the link too ;) Sometimes I know what something is, but I then forget some of these laws by name and whatnot.

These freaks are scary. A lot of them actually WANT Doctors and nurses to get the Death Penalty for performing abortions. Absolutely FRIGHTENING.

Make these nutjobs just go away, pretty please.

[alphadog]

83. But

it doesn't make it illegal for a woman to transport herself.

[alphadog]

81. or

use birth control pills and condoms, which when combined have an extraordinarily low failure rate, thus making knowledge of historical abortifacents unnecessary, says the board's only pro-life Democrat.

[Der Blaue Engel]

91. By pro-life, do you mean you'd vote to abolish abortion

if given the opportunity? Or are you just saying you believe abortion is wrong, but would not seek to prevent others from obtaining them? Because the second option does not make you pro-life, it makes you pro-choice. Many, many, many pro-choice people do not personally believe in abortion, they just respect a woman's right to make this determination about cells inside her own body for herself.

Not to start a flamewar at all, just hoping this is an issue of word choice. If you did mean pro-life, I hope you're not voting in California. Nothing personal. :)

[schrodingers_cat]

94. er.....alphdog.........

Have you ever taken birth control pills? Just a question....how about we take a poll and find out how many women on the board here tolerate them well with no negative side effects? Again, just a question, I certainly don't mean to transgress into your personal life, or anything......

[CAcyclist]

88. There are no herbs or roots that safely induce abortion

There are ,however, several drugs on the market that induce abortion. Misoprostil by itself can induce abortion. Combined with methotrexate or RU 486, the abortion is closer to 100%. There's another drug, trilostane,which causes abortion in women, which is not marketed in the US, but is used in the veterinary field, so compounding pharmacies can import it - that would be fairly easy to divert for an underground abortion operation.Dexamethasone in the right dosage and the right time of pregnancy can cause abortions in dogs - it probably can do the same for people.

Finally, just knowing that doubling up on birth control pills if you accidentally have unprotected sex or are raped (within 72 hours of the event)would prevent lots of abortions.

[kath]

95. Yes - this is what we prescribed as emergency contraception when

I was in residency back in the late 80s (and at a Catholic children's hospital, even).
I can't remember the exact dosage, but it was something like 2 or 3 pills taken for 2 or 3 days in a row (and I believe the old-fashioned, higher estrogen pills are preferred).
Any docs here who know the details?? (my memory is crap these days.)

[LeftCoast]

5. Well, if you start Med School right now,

you just might be qualified in about 5-10 years.

[MuseRider]

6. If you do

please be kinder to your clients than the abortionist of old were. No nasty hotel rooms and no extra touchy feely stuff. It was bad enough without all of that.

Get training somehow, somewhere.

[...of J.Temperance]

8. Have you seen THIS particular film at all?

This is the kind of thing that the Repukes and the Holy Roller nutjobs want society to return to. They're fucking INSANE.

I recommend this film, yes it's rather harrowing, but it's important for people to see that this is the sort of stuff that goes on when abortion is illegal:

http://www.veradrake.com/

[Viva_La_Revolution]

35. this debate is just a symptom of the greater danger....

returning us to the 18th century.

over my dead body. seriously.

[...of J.Temperance]

39. The Repukes want to take society back to the 16th Century

Right back to the Middle Ages, Medieval times. They're sick, irrational and DEEPLY twisted individuals.

You know what they say? That if men could get pregnant, then there would be an abortion clinic next door to EVERY gas station...and it's an accurate comment is that.

[abluelady]

37. It was a wonderful film.

Should be a must see for everyone.

[...of J.Temperance]

38. 'Vera Drake' SHOULD be mandatory viewing in Red states

In fact, they should be forced to watch a film like this. To be honest, I don't think that the anti-abortion crowd actually even have a clue what the hell they're ranting on about.

Everyone knows that pre-Roe v Wade, when abortion was illegal, there still WERE abortions. Banning abortion doesn't equal NO abortions.

They want to return to a time when women and girls died from blood poisoning because of dirty instruments and unhygienic conditions...no chance.

Like the original poster, I'd be prepared to become an abortionist as well.

[abluelady]

42. You're Right

I don't know numbers but it seems to be a large percentage of citizens weren't around to understand exactly what it was like before Roe v. Wade.

I have come to the conclusion that repugs just don't think. They see everything with tunnel vision. If they were forced to think out a problem, i.e., an unwanted pregnancy, from the beginning to the end, they might be more inclined to understand what it all means.

[...of J.Temperance]

58. If only the Repukes cared as MUCH about BORN babies

If only they showed as much interest in babies after they've been born. Their bizarre obsession with the fetus is just too creepy, once the baby is born however, it's on it's own ditto it's Mother.

The Repukes do suffer from tunnel vision, they also have a COMPLETE inability to think in any form of rational and logical way, they think in a totally reactionary way. It's impossible to debate them, even on the simplest of subjects, let alone abortion.

[demigoddess]

75. they have rosy dreams that the mother and father will get together

and raise the baby and live happily ever after. They have no idea of real desperation, real poverty. And they blind themselves to all thoughts of birth defects.

[Shallah Kali]

79. No - the poor should give up the baby to a worthy 'christian' couple

so they won't have to import foreign babies any more. Any emotional anguish at giving up the child doesn't matter, the birth parents deserve it for being too dumb to get born into a wealthy family. :puke:

[Glimmer of Hope]

47. I saw this movie last year. It was incredibly depressing but

opened my eyes to what life would be like without legal abortions. The actress in the lead role was amazing.

[...of J.Temperance]

57. Imelda Staunton

Was the actress and yes she turned in an outstanding performance.

The film obviously is depressing, the subject matter is depressing and the environment is depressing.

I think Mike Leigh, the director, managed to open peoples eyes to how it was, without being overtly sensational.

I wasn't born until after Roe v Wade. But my Mother has previously told me about a woman who used to "help girls in trouble out" when she was growing up. And my Grandmother actually had a friend who was a nurse and she used to perform abortions in the 1940s and into the 1950s.

[kath]

96. There's also a good book called "The Choices We Made"

[kevin881]

9. *if* roe v wade is overturned, it wont mean abortion is criminal...

...it will only mean that people do not have a constitutional right to an abortion, thereby throwing the abortion laws back to the states to decide.

Do you live in a blue or red state?

[USA_1]

18. Abortion was legal in 15 states before ROE was decided

Those laws were NOT adjudicated in Roe so that they will go back on the books if the decision is overturned. It will also mean that the Federal government can no longer legally restrict abortion as it will once again be a matter to be decided by the States.

[MrBenchley]

10. Guess that means you got a coat hanger....

Gonna do tonsilectomies too?

[...of J.Temperance]

60. There's a closet full of coathangers

Tonsilectomies? You silly bunny :)

[MrBenchley]

63. Wonder if Walt is going to wave his pistol around

while performing these abortions?

[...of J.Temperance]

64. Dunno...I might be waving my .460 XVR around though IF

Push comes to shove and the Repuke pigs DO ban abortion.

Oh dear, what's to be done ;)

[MrBenchley]

70. Really? Who are you going to plug?

[...of J.Temperance]

72. I haven't decided as of yet...however...

They ARE out there, they're hiding in the bushes and they're hiding in the shadows and JUST because I CAN'T see them YET...well, that DOESN'T mean that they're NOT ALREADY out there someplace.



:sarcasm:

[yurbud]

11. on the bright side, you won't be sued for malpractice

which is also the bright side of drugs being illegal for dealers--no product liability.

[EFerrari]

15. LOL! n/t

[yurbud]

36. oh, damn. A pic of one that got away.

[EFerrari]

45. Wow! What an amazing gallery. Thank you.

:hi:

[brokensymmetry]

12. An idea....

Yes, become an abortionist - but in a slightly different way.

First, find an offshore venue where abortions can be performed legally. Make arrangements with a clean, safe clinic - perhaps, due to the flow of business, they would agree to reduced rates.

Second, charter a tour. The "tourists" get on the airplane, fly to wherever, check into the hotel. The next day, the procedure gets done, and a couple days thereafter everyone come home.

Maybe you could charge a little extra and use the surplus help out those who don't have any money.

Anyway, that way, all you'd have to do is be a travel agent - which is way easier to accomplish than being a doctor.

[benburch]

13. I'd rather do this in a way that the poor can afford.

And if I had my way, the rich would NOT be served.

[tx_dem41]

23. So you would deny an abortion to rich people?

Very telling, Mr. Burch.

That makes you as bad as anyone else that wants to ban abortion.

[benburch]

28. No...

But I wouldn't serve them.

Let them fly to Mexico. They can afford it. And they made this mess. Without the Rich, Roe v. Wade would never have been challenged.

[brokensymmetry]

27. Well...

I did a quick search, and the airfare for one person can be $765, round trip, from Houston to Grenada. I don't know if Grenada is the place, but I used it as an example.

Instead of hotels, rent several small apartments and put several "tourists" in each. That also means that meals can be cooked in the apartments - another money saving method.

I don't know what the procedure would cost over there....

I realize that not everyone can pay on the order of $1,500; but, given the cost structure today, I wouldn't call them rich.

A web search indicates that the present price in the U.S. is from $275 to $700; so I really don't think my idea is that far out of line.

[benburch]

29. I'd rather it were free if it has to be done illegally.

The thought of charging even a dime for this upsets me.

[brokensymmetry]

33. I'd rather it was free too.

In fact, I think that a good national health care plan would unleash an economic boom that would make the history books. Furthermore, it's a sad day when we will not care for the very people are do the work that keeps the country running - or, for that matter, the poor, the elderly, and the vulnerable.

But we have to deal with the cards we've been dealt. And work for a better deal in 2006 and 2008!

[BlackVelvet04]

17. We will need to organize and

collect donations to help those who otherwise couldn't afford to do this.

[sandnsea]

61. Abortion ships

That's what they do in Ireland. Cruiselines already have lots of "cruises to nowhere". They could just be some that are set up with abortion doctors on them. Outside US water, I don't think any particular law applies on medical services.

[KT2000]

14. Back when it was illegal

there was a doctor in my city who did abortions. He did not hide and there was nothing clandestine about getting an abortion at his office. They tried to bring charges against him but no one - not one single woman who had gotten an abortion there would cooperate with the police. They never were able to prosecute him.
If he did not do the abortions, they would have been done under unsafe conditions.

There will always be a need for safe abortions - the rich have always had access to them. The abortion issue is just about controlling access for those who are not rich or connected.

[benburch]

19. Right.

Which is why I see the need for an underground where the rich will be excluded.

[KT2000]

49. Exclude the rich!

That sounds good to me.

One of the nasties of the RW wealthy is that they could care less what happens to those with less.

Kudos to you for your passion on this subject.

[alphadog]

84. If the rich are excluded...

who's going to finance this little clinic of yours?

[I Have A Dream]

44. And to have a supply of WHITE babies for infertile, rich couples.

I really don't think that this has anything to do with aborting non-white fetuses.

There's a man where I work who had to go to Russia to adopt a child. He's against abortion because "it should be easier to adopt a child in America". He just wants to turn the women of America into brood mares and baby factories! Of course, he'd never consider adopting an African-American baby.

[EFerrari]

20. I'm with you. We're not going back.

There already exists an underground for people who can't afford medical care. We tap into it.

I've learned how to give liquids and injections to animals. How to irrigate wounds, lots of things. If I learned that, I can learn more, organize more, too.

Fuck these people and their careless disregard for human life.

[LeftyMom]

22. Bring meds in from overseas

Back when the morning after pill was't readily available I heard of college-age women going to Mexico for the day, buying a shitload of birth control pills and packaging thier own morning after pills for themselves and thier friends. There's no reason something like that can't be done again if it comes to that.

There was an article around here not long ago about immigrant communities here in the US importing abortion pills from thier home countries because legal abortions are too expensive here and the pills are only a few dollars (I forget the name of the drug.) That could be done too and would be easier to keep under the radar than surgical abortion (I know women who had ergot-derivative abortions in the '50's. When abortion is illegal it's easier to take pills to the woman than the woman to the doctor.)

Nobody's taking my choice or that of my sisters (my literal one or my many metaphorical ones) away. If that means breaking the law, I'm perfectly willing to do that.

[whatever4]

24. If Abortion is criminalized, everyone should find and get to know a doctor

if they might have a future need for one to perform that procedure, lined up ahead of time just in case. It doesn't matter how old your daughter is, if you have a daughter, I think finding a trusted professional now, before the need is there, is the best thing to do. Plan ahead, always plan ahead.

[Auntie Bush]

25. I'm with you! I have a long knitting needle and plenty coat hangers.

[BJW]

26. Alternatives Available

Instead of an exclusive focus on surgical abortion join others to spread info about available, non-prescription abortifacients (herbs) and how to use them safely and effectively.

[benburch]

30. Few are all that safe.

Our opinions on their safety are clouded by years of not needing to use them, I fear.

[davsand]

31. You won't be alone.

I doubt that women and men of conscience will ever let it get to the point that it was just prior to Roe v Wade. There is much that you can do even IF you don't have a med degree...

learn about Menstrual Extraction and other options here:

http://www.sisterzeus.com/MenExt.htm



Laura

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. So you're going to wield coathangers?

What are you talking about?

[applegrove]

40. Back street abortions are unsafe. We have the knowledge to make

them safe and rare. We fight it that way. With good education. With access to medical care on a state by state basis.

[Swamp Rat]

41. Just wait 'till Scalito gets in...

:scared:

[YouthInAsia]

43. An abortion can be safely obtained by simply taking two different

prescription medications, neither of which is marketed as an aborticant, so they will not be made illegal. These two drugs, arthrotec and methotrexate, if taken together as specified will nearly ALWAYS result in an abortion. I know this cuz im a pharmacist

[Auntie Bush]

50. If it's that easy...then why do people have abortions?

What are its downfalls?

[Zynx]

65. My guess is that a lot of people simply don't know.

Also, you have to first get the prescriptions since those are prescription drugs.

[YouthInAsia]

71. the same as for a physical ABORTION....bleeding. I dont know why

more people dont use it. WE used to dispense it quite regualrly at the pharmacy I workd for about 3-4 years ago. Maybe pro-life pharmacists caught on and stared refusing to dispense, even thought I dont see how they could considering the meds are used for rheumatoid arthritis

[benburch]

97. What are their on-label uses?

Thanks!

[Chemical Bill]

51. Pennyroyal tea...

is one herbal abortive. Golden Seal as well. I have a friend who used herbs to terminate a pregnancy. I personally have led four women in meditations to communicate with the life in their wombs and ask it to go away. Two got their periods by the next day, one had an ectopic pregnancy, and luckily caught it in time, and one thought I was full of shit and went to a doctor.

Bill

[CAcyclist]

90. And pennyroyal oil can kill you nt

[countryjake]

52. Abortions performed by wise-women have been done since time immemorial.

True healers have used their knowledge to help their sisters safely stop a pregnancy, whenever needed, without judgment, long before corporate medicine found there was profit and brisk business to be made off the troubles of practical, responsible people.

These angels of mercy and midwives were fought by organized medicine, vilified in ways that made them and their purposes seem evil, labeling them as witches, insane, or baby-killers, despite the fact that many of these women were highly skilled and successful in their tasks of enabling the average woman to not suffer the burden of bearing unwanted children, and actually strengthened the value of a loved family.

It is time to get back to basics and educate ourselves to fight a government that holds the notion that abortion is somehow a bad thing for women to use as an option, when there is yet to exist any contraception that is 100% effective and mistakes happen, daily. We must learn the ways of our mothers and grandmothers and just as important, we should examine their age-old insight that there is nothing sadder than an unwilling mother giving birth to an unwanted child.

We should be looking to set up an efficient state by state underground system that can provide good and easy access for any woman to obtain the help she needs, with no qualifications placed upon the who-when-where-how of her condition. It's time to stop listening to the self-righteous godly morality of those who wish to make a perfectly practical procedure "Rare" and set our minds, instead, on the word "Provide", all across this nation.


Abortionists, midwives, herbalists, go for it, train and prepare yourselves, now, for those services will surely be needed in this Theocratic-Fascism our country is hurtling toward!

[PlanetBev]

53. Something else that hasn't occured to the Fundie shitheads.

My mother told me that when she was growing up in Chicago in the 20's and 30's, there wasn't a woman in her neighborhood who didn't know where to go to get an abortion. Since 1973, the Internet has come along. There will be a mighty network created to help women get the information they need, thus assuring the Fascist Assholes a hollow victory.

We have to take the gloves off and defeat these motherfuckers at every turn.

[DanCa]

55. I am pro stem cell and since there linking the two I am with you.

Hell there was a bill in the texas senate last year that said if I were to get treated outside the united states with stem cell therapy I wouldn't be allowed back in. Thank god my friend james and I got it shot down.

[Jim Stark]

56. Seriously, what is the real reason

that the RWer's give a shit if my girlfriend has an abortion or 12? Sometimes I think that most of them are anti-abortions because they think they are supposed to be.
If my girlfriend gets pregnant several times a year and has abortions, why the hell would I care? It's her choice, her body and a clump of tissue, and even if it's 6 months along, so what?

[Shallah Kali]

78. For RW Politicians it is to Get Out the Vote and get $ from anti-choicers

If they honestly gave a damn about life they wouldn't make unnecessary war, pollution like mercury would be controled, minimum wage would be increased until it was a LIVING wage, etc. Opposing abortion, stem cells, birth control, and human rights for gays are simply a way to rile up the fundies and homophobes. We can see how well it has worked.

[Der Blaue Engel]

92. The hypothetical situation you present is the very fodder

that the RW use to make their arguments: a ridiculously exaggerated position that no real thinking person takes. Most people who are pro-choice are not so flippant about the decision, and are usually far more responsible about birth control, because (and this may come as a surprise to you) NOBODY WANTS to have an abortion.

What is the real reason that you posit this attitude?

[donheld]

62. I will assist in anyway I can.

Yes, I'm with you. It's that important.

[Dorian Gray]

66. Wouldn't that be dangerous?

Perhaps you should leave that to the professionals who are skilled and equipped to do that. There are other ways you can work to help others.

[Az]

68. Already doing escort work

Even been offering free computer service to the clinic I help out at.

[slackmaster]

69. You share my rebellious streak

I don't feel strongly enough about abortion to join you, but several items in my gun collection are there specifically because the California legislature banned them. (They're all legal and grandfathered because I acquired them before their respective bans went into effect.)

[unblock]

74. unfortunately, it won't be so easy. abortion won't be "criminalized"

it will merely be regulated out of existence, while nominally remaining legal.

i think the banana republicans know that an outright ban on abortion would finally wake the slumbering masses.

[PDJane]

76. Abortion is legal.......

In most of Canada. It's probably easier to get to, and the doctors are trained well.

We have had clinics here, as well as the standard hospital abortion, for some time.

Of course, the religious right doesn't have quite the hold here that they do there. I am grateful.

[Hosnon]

77. That is a LONG way off. Roe simply made it unconstitutional to ban it. nt

[alphadog]

80. There will always be...

states in which abortion is legal, whether Roe is overturned or not. And if you're sans a medical degree, you wouldn't be doing anyone any favors -- you'd be the person in the alley with the hanger killing women. Is that who you want to be?

[Hekate]

87. I recommend Rubin's "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About...

...Sex (but were afraid to ask)" if you can find a copy. It was a runaway bestseller when it came out: in the midst of the sexual revolution, but before Roe vs Wade and before AIDS. Now it's a little slice of cultural history.

His chapter on illegal abortion was what made me pro-choice forever.

Hekate

[uppityperson]

89. If abortion is criminalized, I will be a criminal.

[undergroundpanther]

93. There are herbs that can induce abortion

How do you think it was done before medical intervention?